Tough-asses of the Apocalypse

[glandis]

Mad Max and the appeal of playing a post-apocalyptic gang member came up over here, and the intertubes had just provided me a link that's relevant - take a look at Wasteland Weekend and their Facebook page if you have any doubts about the reality. I'd say it ties in with the general US cultural romanticizing of gang life in general, though I find Ron's claims of particular geek culture connections entirely unsurprising. A tough, bad-ass dude/chick who can (they think) look however the hell they want, who belongs to a group that (they think) supports and validates them, and who can (they think) just take whatever they want/need by whatever f'in means they want? Seems understandable (if shallow and, well, disturbing) to me ...

It turns out I'm in the middle of prepping to run a sorta post-apocalypse game of my own, harkening back to Metamorphosis:Alpha with a huge starship as the location of the collapse. My current setup has the PCs as crew/colonists awoken from cold sleep to (belatedly) help the ship recover from the disaster, rather than members of whatever "societies" have evolved in the (couple centuries?) since the disaster. Part of the reason for sending the ship in the first place is that Earth (well, Sol System humanity) seemed on the brink of an apocalypse of their own, but cold sleep has left memories of the details about that fuzzy. I envision thematic ties between what happened on the ship and what was happening in the solar system, but of course it's all intentionally vague pending our PC creation session sometime before Christmas.

I mention all this because while I certainly do intend to include Mad Max-ish gangstuff in the mix, I personally (because - well, not sure that matters) wouldn't be happy with players doing what Ron rightly indicates they might. My set-up is in part to keep that from happening - though thinking about it here/now, these players aren't likely candidates. Huh - yet I still designed around it for PCs, planning to include it as a setting element.

Anyway, there was a second part involving how to incorporate influnces from Sterling E. Lanier's post-apocalyptic Hiero's Journey (a core inspiration for OD&D psionics, I've seen claimed), but - thoughts on that welcome too, but I'm stuck thinking about the gang stuff a bit.

[Callan S.]

Well conversely, because the closet facist's want to play these types of character, what you might get is a reluctance by anyone else to play them. The critical examination part is more of a sideline - it's playing the same character in either case (though I imagine with critical examination, the characters would cease to be so one dimensionally bad ass and find more form than 'wears leather, shoots sawnoff shotgun, does no bathe'). Though even further, of course, these motor cycle gangs - they are the mooks - perhaps the ones weve killed in many types of games. Hardly a glamorous villain. So it's got atleast two counts going against it.

Finally I think many RPG's lack a really strong starvation Vs psychology mechanic. Were basically talking literal inner demons with starvation, and the mental faculties (the brain being such a calorie hog) that are shut down as we begin to starve. Part of the roleplay isn't at all about choosing certain attitudes at all, but about roleplaying as biology forces certain attitudes upon us (part of roleplaying would be to, most often, not see these as forced upon attitudes, but as ones own definate feeling on the matter). Then back out again, to how civilisation can't see you any other way than that, and so you adopt the only identity left to you...rich, horrofying ground.

Anyway, apart from genuinely bloodyminded people, if someone at the table questions these types of characters, then that'll carry to the player of it. But if they aren't inclined to like that, probably better to just have a talk about cutting these types of characters out of play. So go my meandering thoughts.

[RangerEd]

I think drawing too bold a line between the Mad Max characters and ourselves may be wishful thinking. I'll avoid Callan's point on the multi-generational effects of starvation on human beings, which is frighteningly well documented, especially in real-world micro-apocalyptic-regions, and too saddening for me to cope with during a recreational game.

Azar Gat has an interesting book on the trends in humanity entitled War in Human Civilization. In it he presents and discusses evidence of two things in the archeological record for humankind: forming groups and visiting violence upon other groups. As far back as evidence is available, signs of organized homicide using the implements of society also appear. If one accepts Gat's argument, forming gangs and going militant are the dark underbelly of what humanity is. Coupling this idea with Jared Diamond's logic train in Guns, Germs, and Steel, early evolutionary processes amplified gangs and militancy in the human species. In my mind, it is like global dog breeding in which the attack dogs were selected above other variants for several thousand years. Regardless of current societal conditions, we are genetically predisposed to this violence stuff.

One could argue, and I vehemently hope, the environmental selection criteria has shifted and continues to shift towards a more Wilsonian (forgiving the political naiveté of the time) world of global cooperation and peaceful resolution of conflict. I think a futuristic post-apocalyptic scenario emphasizing cooperation and respect for universal human rights instead of a return to primordial violence is refreshing. I also think such a game might demonstrate to its players another way human beings might form a society.

A question for your game, Gordon: how would the right to protect enter into play? The right to protect allows one "gang" to violate the sovereignty (a Peace of Westphalia convention) of another "gang" in the interest of universal human rights, primarily right to life. This allowance has morphed in recent decades to a requirement, with R2P being adopted as responsibility to protect by the UN. In short, if you see bad things, then you are morally compelled to prevent it.

Interestingly and counterintuitively, the responsibility to protect violates the principles of Jus ad Bellum. The moral bounds of war require the right authority and a reasonable hope of success for violence to be considered an ethical option. Who is the right authority in a fictional world of informal, unregulated groups? What if the imperative to defend another has little or no hope of succeeding? Bringing these questions to the Tough-Asses of the Apocalypse would be fascinating and a play summary I want to read.

Ed

[Callan S.]

I think drawing too bold a line between the Mad Max characters and ourselves may be wishful thinking. I'll avoid Callan's point on the multi-generational effects of starvation on human beings, which is frighteningly well documented, especially in real-world micro-apocalyptic-regions, and too saddening for me to cope with during a recreational game.

Heh, yeah, same here! I'd just aim toward something that leans in that direction, hints of it (somewhat Hitchcockesque (if that's a word)) so as to atleast have a sidelong glance at it. Something more than PC's who are beyond food (even though in the west we are indeed sort of mostly beyond food. Enough to think we just are beyond food)

In my mind, it is like global dog breeding in which the attack dogs were selected above other variants for several thousand years. Regardless of current societal conditions, we are genetically predisposed to this violence stuff.

Hush, you be givin' out spoilers to what I'm writing! You even stole my dog breeding analogy! - just joking! :)

One could argue, and I vehemently hope, the environmental selection criteria has shifted and continues to shift towards a more Wilsonian (forgiving the political naiveté of the time) world of global cooperation and peaceful resolution of conflict. I think a futuristic post-apocalyptic scenario emphasizing cooperation and respect for universal human rights instead of a return to primordial violence is refreshing. I also think such a game might demonstrate to its players another way human beings might form a society.

Well, why just have everyone aligned with cooperation and respect, automatically? Seems more plausible and engaging if you look at the idea (meme?) of cooperation and respect, in the face of massive resource shortages and other peoples (the majority) brought down to no more sympathy than a hungry wolf has - and how much that idea/meme inches towards extinction in that environment, even within the people that tried to continue carrying it. Now that's a lose condition!

What if the imperative to defend another has little or no hope of succeeding?

On a related point, what happens when we give up even talking as a way of defending, when there seems little or no hope of suceeding? And when we stop talking, how much it becomes simply 'how it is' and becomes an accepted status quo.

Anyway, just tossing ideas around like hot potatoes in case any seem engaging to anyone...

[Ron Edwards]

Gordon: game system?

[glandis]

This was mostly a quick "links to support people getting into being Mad Max gang members" and play-solution "solve any issues by no such PCs" comment.  But Callan and Ed have got me thinking about what my decisions regarding biker bad-asses say and/or imply about my generation ship post-disaster setting in general. Practically, the initial line (between PC and badass) will be very strong: the PCs are decently-equipped and on a mission; badasses are problems to be solved. Of course, badasses are also people (and not starvation-crippled, either - badasses by choice, to some extent, certainly not exclusively so by circumstance). Realizing that inevitably blurs the line, which is of course the desired state: the issues (right to protect and etc.) are not pre-resolved, they will be present and addressed during play. The ship itself (AI of some sort) is in some sense a major "authority figure", but it is damaged, perhaps even compromised by one or more opposing forces.

So the line between PCs and badasses will be connected to the core of the game - although the badasses are not the exact type of badasses Callan or Ed are putting forward. I don't think I saw that clearly before, so thanks.

Game system - the default is going to be stat + skill + d10 vs. target number from Mekton. The specific request was to "do something different with Mekton," and my Mekton meets Metamorphosis:Alpha gained the most interest. So now I get to figure out how to make that work, to what extent/manner we use human/vehicle-scale battle machines (no "true" mechs was part of the pitch), and if I bring in any custom rules of my own design and/or from elsewhere. In the past, this group has bolted pieces of my own rules onto FATE-ish play, used FATE aspects in Pathfinder, created Sorcerer-ish kickers in d20 - I guess I'd call the default play style "crunchy system guided freeform" or something. Actually, this group would be poster children for "we can already do that D&Dish thing - why Dungeon World/etc.?" But D&D-ish is feeling uninteresting at the moment, so maybe this is a "hey, we had fun with Mekton in the past - can we do a similar twisted-just-for-us thing with Mekton as we did with d20 and (less successfully) did with FATE?" We trust ourselves to improvise our way to successful play, but we want to try a different base for the improvisation.

That said, in this group I'm (no surprise) often an advocate for trying more transparently designed-system driven play, so to the extent I find time to invent/steal some design tricks for use here, I will. Next step: create the game background doc. Possibly interesting bit: as per M:A, "advancement" is about gaining knowledge and things, not XP. Knowledge and things make you more powerful, not stat & skill improvement.

[Ron Edwards]

Gordon and Ed, you might be interested in Holodomor, for the most extreme look in RPG form that I can think of.

Gordon, let's step back a minute and look - what do you think is the fun and inspiring thing in the Mekton-Metamorphosis Alpha concept? Never mind the players, not even a little. What gets you excited with it?

Best, Ron

[glandis]

Gordon, let's step back a minute and look - what do you think is the fun and inspiring thing in the Mekton-Metamorphosis Alpha concept?

So, part of it is that this "let's start a new game, not fantasy/d20 - how about Mekton?" came up right as the D&D orthodoxy and OSR discussions were a'boil. I'd read a bunch of '77-'81 game material, had some creative thoughts triggered, then ran into the "not D&D" constraint. The Metamorphosis:Alpha connection was an example of fruitful constraint, as (even more than I'd realized) I also had some AW on the brain, probably from discussions at anyway. I'm not really drawn to AW in terms of either the basic Color or how it (from what I can tell) focuses on interpersonal PC interactions, but  - "see what the PCs make of their world" was an interesting starting point, just needing a different environment (the colony ship) and focus (below?) to grab my interest. The result was me getting excited at a way to bring all these recent thoughts together in one place.

Another (maybe "the") key was seeing an opportunity to build some real sci-fi alieness into play, at multiple levels. Part of the ship-disaster is the result of an alien encounter (probably bungled by the crew/AI on duty when it happened). The ship AI(s) themselves are in some ways alien. The societies/cultures/whatever that resulted after the breakdown (including our badasses) will be at the very least unfamiliar. Flawed cold-sleep/awakening makes the PCs themselves a bit alien TO themselves, with incomplete memories of the "big picture" at their time of departure (though their personal memories will be fine). Address good old SF "where are the lines between human and alien?"

Plus, maybe some payoff to the investment in learning the build system in Mekton Zeta + - while fun, past play never seemed to make the effort put into building combat machines for your PC "worth it," which I'd blamed somewhat on GM-mishandling. This is a chance to see if that subsystem (details of which I hope come back to me as I start fooling with it) can be made supportive/useful/more fun. Maybe there's a connection to your 4e plans there, Ron, but I expect my play to be vanilla Nar rather than really challenge driven.

There are some thoughts - if I missed something, ask away!

re: Holodomor. Decades back, the Cold War and an Al Stewart song ("Roads to Moscow") - maybe even the old SPI game "War in the East" -triggered me to a more-than-trivial examination of ca WWII USSR/Eastern Europe. I grew up hearing about the sacrifices Americans faced in the Great Depression and WWII. It's wrong to compare hardships, I'm sure, but - we have no clue.

[glandis]

So here's the insight from this thread: it's fine (required, given my setup) that PCs aren't biker gang tough-ass types. But the game I want to play and the use of that biker gang-thing in some form (thematic fit and Mekton vehicle creation being an almost irresistable use of system & color), I will have to create understandable, non-cartoon thug NPCs and social groups in that space (as well as others). Players will have to be free to interact with those groups however they choose. I might have missed that so, again, thanks.

I developed some other thoughts on the fun and inspiring thing(s) question as I was writing my background doc for this game, but this was mostly a Mad Max etc. thread. When I finish that doc I'll put up a new thread/link and see if there's any discussion to be had. Barring someone with Mad Max-gangpeople thoughts, nothing else to say here, I think.