[Sorcerer] Big and Shapeshift (with Travel and Special Damage)

[Moreno R.]

Hi!

The question is about this demon, (sorry, it's in Italian), but I will give all the relevant informations here.

The player wants a demon that has a "normal form" as a dog (cover: dog) but it can change into a monster that is bigger, the front paws turn into bat's wings with talons (he can fly), the tail turn into a poisonous scorpion tail, and he has fire breath, too!

To do so, he did choose these powers:
- Big
- Shapeshift
- Travel (flying)  (he added transport to be able to ride the demon or having the demon grab someone while flying)
- Special (non-lethal) attack : fire breath
- Special (lethal) attack: fangs and claws
- Special (non-lethal) attack: the scorpion's tail sting (venom)
- Armor (tough flesh)

I am looking at this list, and I noticed a thing: isn't Shapeshift unnecessary? He "paid" with other powers the increase in size (big), the resistance to damage (armor), the wings (travel), the talons and fangs (special damage), the scorpion's tail (special damage) and the fire breath (special damage).  Isn't all the rest (adding "monstrous" to the total, as far as I see) simply color?

Or he has to take shapeshift too?

- A second question: shapeshift has a duration of (demon's power) minutes, in the annotations you write to ignore all distance and weights in the chapter, but you don't talk about durations: do they stand? (and in particular, the duration of shapeshift is still that one?). The note at the top of page 52-i make me think that they have to be crossed out, too: "Some of the abilities imply duration: Warp, Taint, Shapeshift, Shadow, Daze,Command, and Hold. In each case, the duration of the effect must be defined by the special effects, during the process of creating the demon. None may be defined as permanent."

IF that duration is to be ignored, my take on the demon's transformation is that the transformation doesn't need a duration in minutes or hours (the player should add something in the power's fictional description to make it not permanent, though). If Shapeshift is not necessary, seeing that "Big" is not on that list make me think that even the "not permanent" limit is gone, and the demon could stay in either of his forms as much as it wants, right?

Changing from a form to the other is an action, so the demon can't do nothing else in that round, right?

----
A different question about the same demon: the player wanted the sting of the scorpion's tail to inject a venom with paralyzing effect on the target. I looked at the list of demon's power and the one that seemed more apt was "hold", but looking at it it needs at least two hits to stop the target from attacking and three hits to fully paralyze him. I presented this to the player, adding that the simple penalties caused by a successful attack from this monstrous demon would be enough to stop a normal human attacker at least for one action (a minimum of 12 as penalty on the next roll) and allow the demon to attempt the second hit without risking being attacked in the meanwhile by the victim. But it still was not what the player asked. So I thought about the problem, and other ways to get that effect, and I am in doubt about these possibilities:

1) The player has to suck it up, the "hold" description show that in this game you don't have a "total paralyze with one single hit" power. (I don't think this is the case, but I list it in the possibilities because I am not 100% sure about that)
2) The venom in the bloodstream could continue to "attack" the victim for three rounds afterward, allowing the "paralyze with a single sting" effect but not instantly. (and lucky victims would not be completely paralyzed if they win even one of these rolls)
3) I can simply list it as a kind of non-lethal Special Damage, with the paralyzing as a fictional effect (maybe the Power of the demon instead of being added to the damage is used in a power vs will (or stamina) roll to paralyze the target)
4) can it be a form of taint, activated by a successful attack roll? (after the attack, the victim has to roll humanity against the victories of the demon's attack maybe? Or still against the demon's power). This leave the problem of an attack on a NPC, but I could use their best score, or assign them a likely humanity on the spot, or use a single die, or use the "2nd rate foes" rule at page 112 and say that they are paralyzed, period, without rolling humanity.
5) use the poison rules from page 75 of Sorcerer and Sword, consider that venom as the venom of a fantasy creature, assign a power rating to it (player's choice, up to the demon's power) and roll the venom's power against stamina or will of the victim.

Of these 5 options, which are legit and which are not? And what options would you prefer? (even another one I didn't think about)

[Ron Edwards]

If anything in the parentheses makes you ask more questions, then ignore the parenthesized material and follow the initial sentence alone.

Keep the Shapeshift. (If the 'monster' form when it's Big is definitely and significantly not a dog, and it matters greatly to the player that it's not a dog, then keep the Shapeshift. If the Big form is merely a scarier dog then the Shapeshift should be gone.)

Set a practical duration for the Shapeshift as you see fit; I suggest "a fight," "a scene," or anything else very easy during play. Do not use in-game chronology like "an hour," or "a day."

Changing to one form or another is an action just as you describe. (That only matters if the round-by-round combat sequence is already in motion.)

The paralyzing venom is merely a non-lethal Special Damage with fictional "paralysis venom" effects, or it's a Hold. (It is within the rules to combine the two abilities into a single strike, so that the target is both damaged and held. In so doing, the two abilities cannot be used separately.)

You need to stop negotiating demon construction with the players! They are yours to make up; this wrangling and tuning and explaining and rules-justifying is pre-play madness and disaster.

[Joshua Bearden]

I came back the forum today...

You need to stop negotiating demon construction with the players! They are yours to make up; this wrangling and tuning and explaining and rules-justifying is pre-play madness and disaster.

...and found my last 2 and next 5 questions already answered!

Thanks

[Moreno R.]

About this, today reading the manual (5th time...) I noticed this on page 33
"This is the only demon sheet the player will ever get to see, and even then it can be altered once it gets into the gm's hands. After that, the gm generates and controls ALL demon sheets."

From my previous readings and the note on page 47 ("Although the process starts with a player, the amount of starting information can vary, as described in the text. It's up to the GM to take the demon creation process the rest of the way, remaining true to what the player provided, but also completing the character as his or her (the GM's) character.") I thought that the GM should take the informations given by the players, and complete the Demon with informations that are not in the player's demon's sheet (mostly fictional material), but that the part in the Player's demon sheets is "fixed" (at least until modified during play), and it's mostly for this reason that I was trying to find the combination of powers that better adapted the player's description of the demon.

But that citation seems to indicate that the GM could even alter the demon sheet before play, so that the copy in the player's hand is not "true" anymore.
Prefacing this with the assurance that I have already the starting demons for the game and I have no reason at the moment to modify them...  that phrase had that meaning, or I am misreading what it says? And what are the guidelines for doing that?

[Ron Edwards]

"The sky is blue." Moreno responds, but what does that mean? Blue, or, you know, some other color? And what about the sidewalk, what color is it? And by the way, why did you choose blue?

Moreno. Make the demons and play them.

Best, Ron