Sorceror 2nd Ed & a question

[SJE]

Hi Ron,

I recently played Sorceror for the first time with the Magus in a 3 session mini-campaign at a convention. The setting was cool - we set it in Gotham (without the capes or freaks- just the crime and corruption) and we told some good stories (I had a Sorceror Alderman who stood for Mayor of Gotham).

Anyway, being more familiar with Malcolm Craigs work (Cold City and Hot War) and seeing how it had drawn the basic rules from Sorceror we did have a few occasions when we were cursing our copies of the Annotated Sorceror because the explanation of a rule was now split across the original text and your annotations and could be tricky to piece together in play. And other comments like "Well I've learned a lot since I wrote this"  made us wonder might the whole issue be solved by a 2nd Edition which further perfects and refines your vision of Sorceror, 15 years on in a single text with all the rules niggles and identified issues ironed out?

Also one bit that really confused and frustrated us -  A Cloaked Demon (say a living shadow) from Sorceror A is following and spying on Sorceror B. What does Sorceror B roll to spot it? Lore? Will?  Or is it 'Perception (which is what? Cover? Will? Lore) MINUS the demons Power (which will tend to be 1 dice since most demons are  Power 5+)  and versus what Demon stat?

Thanks,

Steve

[Ron Edwards]

Hi, and welcome to the forum.

No 2nd edition, not going to happen. For me, it's like a rock and roll album. I am happy to keep Sorcerer published as my first major work with many merits of its own, now furnished with album liner notes, but not to re-record it.

In your example, the first concern is whether Sorcerer B notices that someone, something, anything is following him. Now, I stress that "does he notice" is one of the least meaningful reasons to roll dice in this game, and it doesn't surprise me that it's where the group ran into trouble. At least 90% of the time, you shouldn't be "rolling to notice" in Sorcerer. It's possible that in some edge case I'd say to do it, but it's very, very unlikely. I'd save the moment to roll until the demon took some action that was quite obviously to the detriment of Sorcerer B.

But let's say it's such an edge case, and that somewhat abstractly, that fact that the demon is spying on Sorcerer B is taken as a direct infringement on his interests. That's not too bad to assume, I can live with that. In that case, it's a conflict between the sorcerer's Will - which has to do with mental and cognitive presence, force of will - and the demon's, because the demon is similarly exerting its Will upon reality - and the sorcerer's perception of his environment - through its presence of mind. The sorcerer is indeed penalized by the demon's Power because it has Cloak, so a single die may be the case.

Let's say the demon's highest die is a 3 (it could happen), and the sorcerer's one or two dice provide a higher value. OK, he sees that he's being followed - and given that we've already established this as a conflict - obviously in a way he doesn't want to happen. The next question is whether he sees that the follower is a demon. If that's obvious, i.e. it's all tentacles and dripping blood, then fine. If not, then it's his Lore vs. a single die, the standard roll to "see if it's a demon."

Let me know if that makes sense or helps. Again, I'm almost certain that this question is less about what to roll than it is about why to roll, specifically why standard "does he notice" rolling is almost never necessary in this game.

(edited to fix bad grammar - RE)

[SJE]

Well this was more a roll to determine if Sorceror B would detect the Demons espionage. It was based in the fiction – Sorceror A (sex cultist who'd discovered her recent pregnancy) had met and slept with my Alderman (Sorceror B who had an Insconspicious demon bound to his shadow, whispering impossible secrets into his ear). During the intimacy, the Alderman had revealed a lot about himself and his demon.  The cultist hadnt returned the open-ness (and been very cagey) so the Alderman used his Demons Hint ability to  learn  some impossible secrets about her and her demon.    The sorceress then send her shadowy demon (still an Inconspicious shadow, but not actually living  in her shadow as my one was) to follow my Alderman around and spy on his actions by following him around the next few days.    It was quite a nice scene- both characters were attracted to the power the other one possessed (and were the first other Sorcerors  they'd met outside of mentors)  but were also very paranoid about the threat we posed to each other.   So  given that her shadow demon was spying on my PC, I asked "Can my paranoid sorceror spot that?" and then we encountered the rules tangle that is Cloak vs. Sorcerors Perception and the various contradictory annotations.

In retrospect I should also have asked "Can my paranoid sorceror or the demon constantly whispering in his ear  spot that" too.


As for the 2nd Ed thing, I'd argue that a game is nothing like a record- it's a living thing as its used and enjoyed by its players rather than a static creation of a single creator – as the player base  encounter problems with the rules set, they'll house rule away (as we did in the end)  and it also reflects other advances in gaming, as newer games learn from what works (or doesn't work) from past games and improve. A second edition keeps a game current and more playable and available to the player base.  Indeed one thing that convinced me to play in this convention mini-campaign was that I simply hadnt seen Sorceror on offer for nearly a decade – no one was running it at cons in the UK. Partly that's the result of games like Hot War and Cold City which took the basic Sorceror rules and streamlined and expressed them more elegantly with the Consequences table.  I guess that people will work around the rules with their own home brews and hacks, but then you as the creator miss out on  some money from that as well as the opportunity to improve the game with 15 years of your playtesting and gaming experience.

Fair enough you have made your decision about it, all I'll add is that if you did a Sorceror 2nd Ed, then I'd buy it.

[Ron Edwards]

Thanks for playing the game.