[Slay Kickstart] Initial ideas

[Ron Edwards]

So, my most common sales-item these days is S/Lay w/Me. Especially since I made it available in PDF, sales are through the roof.

I'm considering using Kickstart for my business model for the foreseeable future, as I've been discussing throughout several threads lately. Before I try some of the unusual or ambitious versions - such as the Doctor Chaos playtest/webcomic one - I think I should do at least one more meat-and-potatoes one, about promotion and development of an existing game instead of a new game. My long-term strategy requires a good track record on satisfying Kickstarts. S/Lay w/Me seems like the best candidate to nail another one.

Remember the model, as discussed in the other threads. The first idea is to have a goal which serves me and the game, and which is distinct from the backer rewards or only incidentally overlapping. The second is to have backer rewards which are perfectly legitimate purchases related to the game and in most cases limited to the Kickstart, all priced equally and which would be chosen by menu in the final survey.

I know for sure what I'd like for S/Lay w/Me: an on-line interface for recording the details of play through multiple adventures. And I mean a good one, so it's useful to fill stuff out prior to play (i.e. you get cool printouts), fun to fill stuff out adventure after adventure, and exciting to check out if you're someone else. The game has amply demonstrated that it works on the intended level, i.e. building two adventurous sagas through many adventures, and I want to reinforce and advertise that point.

Obviously it needs to be visual as hell, and so I have a risky ambition too: to see it become a go-to site for freelance artists. What I mean is, if you play S/Lay w/Me and record your adventures there, you'd also post a cash amount you're willing to pay such an artist to go nuts with your material. And what the artist draws, goes up at the site! Advertisement and a little work for the artist, cool-beans appreciation of your unique play-experience, eye-candy for anyone visiting the site, incentive for further play for you, and incentive to pick up the game and do it too, for everyone else. Imagine visiting this site and being able to read about tons of other people's adventures, seeing great art associated with it, and being able to buy a $5 PDF with the rules so you can do it too.

So this goal is essentially about website construction: setting up the look, the interface, the services, the questions, and many other details. It would also involve getting a couple of artists on-board who'd like to work with it, who are at least willing to provide some starting art based on my or others' games that have been played already and could be input into the system at the start. My ultimate goal would be that artists could find the place, but obviously it has to be fertile, productive ground when they do. All these things are not too hard to organize - what they need is money, big fistfuls of it, and that's what a Kickstart can do. (Although I am still a weenie about Kickstart goal sizes, and so might stick with the $5,000 level, with perhaps a $10,000 add-on, as I did for the Sorcerer books.)

Now for the backers and their rewards. OK, again, this isn't about making a deluxe S/Lay w/Me special edition, not as the goal anyway. But a nicer copy of the game could easily be one of the rewards, especially since it's optional, and especially if the backer pays the shipping cost. What I'm thinking of is mimicking the French cover, so the framing color is black with white lettering, re-doing some of the art so it conforms more with my vision, adding an extensive example of play specifically to illustrate the steep-but-short learning curve, and probably adding Naked Went the Gamer - which was intended originally to feature the game as its subordinate example anyway. So probably about twice the size, and arguably, that would mean full-page size with the same page count (30). Not bad! I can budget for that with funds already in hand.

Other rewards are a bit tougher to consider at the moment, especially because the game isn't built to benefit from support material, unlike Spione, for instance. Obviously a poster of the cover, for another physical item which requires shipping cost. But what about electronic stuff, or services, along the lines of what I did for the Sorcerer kickstart? I'll probably come up with some ideas on my own, but help from present company would be great too. Please remember I'm not talking about fancy expensive crap that digs me into a hole, like custom dice - I want to keep the money I made past the goal, you know. And preferably limited items, i.e., not available after the kickstart.

Thoughts? Ideas?

Best, Ron

[edheil]

You know I'll be there if you need my art, Ron. Including starting art based on other's games.  It's what I do.  (Though I understand you may be interested in branching out to new artists, as you were going to do with S/Lay w/Me originally before the Great Flakeout.  I'm just saying, you know I dig that groove.)

The web application is an interesting one.  I've spent the last year and a half working for a company that designs web sites and custom web applications.  I'm still fairly new to the game and learning a lot.  And I definitely do not have excellent "make a beautiful web site" skills yet, as you can tell from my completely off-the-shelf, undistinguished-design web presence.  This is what I know though, about how those things go.

When you want a web site with unique functionality, you've got the choice of having somebody write that stuff up for you from scratch, using a "framework" -- Ruby on Rails is a popular one for this.  Downside: it's a lot of work to build from scratch.  Upside: you get *exactly* what you need.  Downside: you might not get a lot of things you only found out later you need, without more work.

Or else you take an existing chunk of web-site-building software -- a "content management system" like Wordpress or Drupal -- which can be bent to your will, and bend it.  You write a bunch of customized code to change the way it works to be more what you like.  Downside: it might be hard to bend it to be *exactly* what you need.  Rough edges, mismatch, cruft.  Upside: you will probably get a lot of useful stuff for free, that you never realized you needed, because people tend to need a lot of the same functionality no matter what kind of web site they're building: uploading files, logging in as a user, editing content, yadda yadda.  All that stuff will come with your Content Management System for free, it's just a matter of bending it to your will.

So what you're looking at is either a *very* customized Content Management System, or else a fairly complex app built from scratch using a Web Framework.

My call is -- you need a *very* customized Content Management System, put together not by a guy who throws those things together off the shelf and hands you the keys (there are a lot of guys like that) but by somebody who's used to customizing the shit out of those things.

Either way, if it's paid work by professionals at market rates, it's liable to be the most expensive part of the kickstarter. :\  Hopefully you can find somebody with both competence and affordability, maybe someone for whom it would be partly a labor of love.

Now that I write all this, I'm about 100% certain you have friends who know more about this than I do, and can give you better advice.  Like I said, I'm kind of new to the game.  But I thought I'd throw what knowledge I had out there, to start the conversation

[Ron Edwards]

Thanks Ed! That helps a lot.

I had a long talk with Vincent today, who politely explained to me that I'm building this on too many "if's." If people post about playing the game, if they offer money for art, if artists are willing to draw stuff, and (most importantly) if third parties would consider this activity worth visiting the site for, to be inspired to play the game or hire artists. He reminded me of a fundamental feature of my own business strategy from the beginning, which is to work off of what's happening, not off of what people are "supposed to do" once you provide a way for them to do it.

Which is only to say that a functional, if not especially spiff version of this activity needs to be in place first - not only seed it with pre-arranged willing players and artists, but to see if networking among artists and interest among other players gains any traction at all. Then and only then would a kickstart project to make a spiff site viable become itself a meaningful project.

So that becomes one of my goals for the next few months, getting that into place. First will be designing the little forms and questions, not much more than a nice medium for recording what the game makes you write down anyway. Second will be posting some examples based on my own games, plus some art up there, plus a money offer for anyone else. And then networking out from the artists I know to see if anyone they know likes the idea; plus networking among people who've played the game to see if they'll post their own stuff.

Best, Ron

[edheil]

Yeah, that Vincent, he's a smart guy.

[Ron Edwards]

Well paint me purple and call me a worm, a single day's networking has yielded remarkable results. I may be able to get a solid, active preliminary site up within a few weeks.

Plus, some of my ideas for rewards have panned out remarkably well - original psycho-heavy progrock? Score! Totally awesome miniatures? Score!

If and I think when I get the site under way and functioning, then I'll post the link to the kickstart draft, just as I did before.

Points to remember:

1. In this model, a backer doesn't necessarily have to care about the goal. It could just be shopping, and he or she likes some of the stuff listed and wants it.

2. Conversely, at least a couple of the rewards entail participating directly in the goal-activities, for backers who feel exactly the opposite.

3. The new spiffed-up book is one of the goals, so if you want, you can consider this kickstart a way to get a first-run copy, just as with many kickstarts.

4. With the exception of #3 and also of work which will be retained by its creator (i.e. the music), the rewards will all be strictly limited to this kickstart.

[Ron Edwards]

And here's another idea, basically doubling the ambition of the goal: a specific way to play on-line, one on one. Please understand that I know nothing about Google Plus or any other current medium for on-line live play. I know it's a big deal. So, I'm asking: does the current technology make some special platform irrelevant? Or does it benefit from some attention to the interface, which could be professionally provided? And furthermore, given the specific requirements and procedures of S/Lay w/Me, would such an interface be possible?

Thoughts, please. These are questions I'm not going to be able to answer myself.

Best, Ron

[Eero Tuovinen]

My first idea for a specific S/lay w/ Me online play interface would be to create an add-on application for Google Hangouts or Skype. The sort of thing specced here. This would be a relatively lightweight (in the sense that it doesn't do its own connections and video feeds) application that operates "on top" of the pre-existing communication software, adding dicing tools, rules references, your turn/my turn -toggles, funny hats for when players take character roles, and whatever degree of multimedia might be desired.

A completely stand-alone website would not be a good idea for this in comparison, for two basic reasons: one is that you don't want to be stuck maintaining infrastructure that is not your direct concern, and hosting a video feed server would surely be exactly that sort of burden; the other reason is that being the routing server for video would be expensive, while making the entire software peer-to-peer (that is, have the users establish their own direct connection from computer to computer) would be technically relatively complex for no good reason in a world where big corporations offer services like Google Hangout for free.

(Obviously your web developer should work with modularity in mind, so that the code can be adapted to new service providers in case e.g. Google Hangout services are stopped at some point.)

Insofar as user experience goes, there is no reason not to host your own website that introduces the concept of online S/lay w/ Me, and then links the user directly to an appropriate Hangout interface. So making it a Hangout application doesn't mean that users would have to approach it via G+. You can find examples of how various games that live on social networking sites also have faces in the public Internet easily enough.

[Ron Edwards]

That's what I want! I don't want a specific website for the two-player online platform - no! The specific website idea is only for the art/play gallery. That's a totally different thing, aside from the link you mentioned.

Yes, an add-on for Google Hangouts is exactly what I'm talking about. People, help out! Is that something easy, or is it something that needs professional help? And with any luck, is it easy at a basic level but would it benefit from real professional help in order to be awesome? Because that's what I'd love to include in this Kickstart as a goal along with the art/play gallery idea.

Best, Ron

[Eero Tuovinen]

I've never done anything for G+, but assuming it's not considerably more difficult than other web programming (I understand that it uses Javascript for most things, for instance), then I'd say that a single devoted hobbyist could put something together given a hundred hours. All in all, it's at the upper end of what you might expect somebody to do just for fun - I could imagine being that sort of person if I was more of a slacker (less projects on my plate) and just a bit more of a programmer (so I wouldn't be so rusty, and thus wouldn't have to study so much before doing it).

(What I'm assuming an application like this would have: a bit of multimedia candy, dedicated interface for character/scenario prep for the two player roles, a clear interface for tracking the game state, dicing, real-time record-keeping. Nothing particularly difficult, but programming tends to take a certain minimum amount of time for even simple things, especially when you want the result to look polished and be easy to use.)

It'd probably be more practical to look for somebody devoted to programming, who also likes the game, and make a profit-sharing deal of some sort with them. For example, give them a relatively free hand to implement as they want under a license that allows them to use e.g. donations, advertising or premium content to recoup a bit of recompense out of the project. I wouldn't be surprised if a person interested in this sort of deal existed in the world; any young gamer/programmer interested in putting the Hangouts app interface through its paces might be happy to do it with a specific goal and an existing indie franchise (as opposed to reimplementing Tetris or something). If they were interested in exploring the possibilities of tabletop roleplaying via video phone systems, then a small prototyping project like this could be just perfect as a stepping stone towards more elaborate goals.

Aside from making it a learning experience for some young web programmer, the other option would be to see if there are any established professionals among your fan base. As with most forms of programming, making this sort of web app gains massive synergy benefits from being implemented by somebody who already has the basic building blocks (the G+ API, Javascript interface elements, fresh skills and so forth) at their fingertips. Pulling numbers out of my hat, I'd expect that if doing something like this took me 200 hours (50 to get a sense of how to go about making a G+ app, and the rest to muddle through the programming at my skill level via trial and error) to get basic functionality, an actual professional might achieve the same stage of development in 30 or 50 hours (especially if you gave him an artist to make the interface elements and other resources - most programmers are understandably not much in that department).

Also: it occurs to me that a suitable system that could be adapted for this might conceivably already exist. Web phone gaming (as opposed to dedicated tabletop gaming softwares) has only become a big deal with G+, so I wouldn't be surprised if nobody's yet created much in the way of dedicated rpg'ing tools, but if there's even somebody who's figured out a dice-rolling app, that person might be a big help in putting together a more elaborate dedicated app for a specific game. Just takes some research to find out whether anything like this already exists, or if video phone gaming so far has really relied completely on non-integrated tools.

[Ron Edwards]

Finding the right person is not a problem, now that I'm working with your description of the system and the tasks. I know exactly whom to contact, and I'm pretty sure it's not going to take 100 hours. In fact, it's the same person I wanted to contact about the automated features and general design of the gallery, so one person, two tasks, two fees, plus some sunk-cost recompense, and that will comprise the Kickstart goal.

I think this is coming together. You guys won't see any evidence for that for a couple of weeks, but at that point, I hope you'll be excited too.

Best, Ron

[Eero Tuovinen]

Oh, I'm excited already. I personally suspect that the website you envision, while it would indeed be neat, won't get enough traction in practice. (It relies on active users a lot, and I suspect that the game doesn't have enough adherents to maintain site activity.) However, just like your Spione site, it's something worthwhile to attempt. Also, there's a lot in your vision here that could push the envelope seriously, assuming your developer has ambition and does a quality job. (In fact, I wouldn't mind checking over the feature list later on, if you want other eyes on it. The very idea of dedicated web tools for a specific roleplaying game, so as to make that game a naturalized denizen of the electronic world - that's something I've been thinking of for a long while now. A well-made web application for playing online could be as central to a game's publishing plan as a paper book or digital book ever was.)

[Ron Edwards]

Don't be so damned negative! Plenty of web endeavors work out way more extensively than their founders expect; you may have heard about this thing called "the Forge," for instance.

Besides, the extent of the eventual use of the gallery isn't a feature of the Kickstart; as long as it's above "limping along, effectively dead," I'll call it a win and appreciate whatever boost it gives the game. And it may well do a lot better than that.

The Kickstart is merely about giving the gallery a better look at its current (i.e. Kickstart-current) level of function. And I'm really thinking that a well-done Google Hangouts or Skype add-on, or both, would in fact be the thing this project really needs as a twin-goal - everyone can see that this would be a good thing.

So the goal really becomes about bringing S/Lay w/Me into the modern world: old-school fantasy content meets new-school internet. On the one hand, marrying the content of play with exactly the right kind of artists, and on the other, bringing play into new functionality. If play-reports are any indication, enough people would be excited enough to use the service that the effect could well be amplified, socially, over time.

And again, if the goals don't mean shit to you, maybe a cool poster, a beautiful and longer game book, a bad-ass progrock soundtrack, neat miniatures, and other rewards do - I'm hoping to have one of the niftiest sets of limited backer rewards for an RPG to date, and a lot of it is coming together fast.

Best, Ron

P.S. Incidentally, Eero, you should play the game. I think you'd really like it.

[Eero Tuovinen]

It sounds like a perfectly sensible Kickstarter project to me; as you say, you've got solid angles of approach for different types of audience to get interested. How much traction I expect the resulting website to have over the long term doesn't really enter into it, you should obviously follow your own vision. Besides, if you manage to develop both prongs of the assault and have both a playable application and a gallery site back-end to celebrate creative accomplishments afterwards (a very nice idea to my mind, I stress, even if I don't expect it to have massive traction), I would view that as making the sustainability of the project a much more likely prospect over a time-span of several years; social and fun things to do with your friends in the real time in the Internet, ones that do not require the massive buy-in (and geek commitments) of commercial computer gaming, those are an underdeveloped field as of now. If a web version of S/lay develops, such that it might spread among indie computer gaming enthusiasts and forum roleplayers as an alternative pastime - I wouldn't be surprised if that could achieve some significant interest. The competition for this digital/social niche ("I have 20 good friends online right now, but nothing to do tonight" is basically it) simply is not there, the best alternatives at this point are comparatively crude experimental designs originating in the computer game subculture, operating with basically '90s understanding of what a creative, SIS-manipulating game can be. (Think Once Upon a Time, that's about the operative level of the best I've seen.)

As for S/lay, I have played it - twice, even! It's written in a bit difficult manner, but once you figure out how the goes are supposed to function (and connect to the dice mechanics), it's very natural to play. Considering how staid the approaches to pulp fantasy in gaming tend to be, I consider S/lay a prominently interesting outlier in the genre. It has a secure place on my shelf, and mostly just doesn't see play because the social footprint is so peculiar (I rarely end up gaming with just one other person). I do intend to play a real campaign at some point, though; if you can accomplish an appealing web tool for it, that'll increase the likelihood considerably.

[Paul Czege]

If it were me, I think what I'd kickstart is the creation of a smartphone app for playing the game. The app would message the storytelling back and forth between the two players, and manage the dice tower. I think it would open the game up to a lot of play if people could do it when they had time waiting for the train, or for a table at a restaurant. And the app would archive the stories to a S/lay w/Me website.

I suspect the biggest smartphone platform is the iPhone, so the app would be for the iPhone. But one of the stretch goals would be to do an Android version.

Another stretch goal would be functionality to randomly initiate games for people who want to play with someone they maybe don't know.

And another of the stretch goals would be the creation of functionality that would let people vote to see which archived stories get illustrated, and some amount of money committed to pay for the illustrations. And the goal would specify which artists were on board for maybe two years of doing illustrations quarterly. Maybe there would be two illustrations a quarter, one for games between strangers and one for games between people who arranged the game themselves.

I'm not sure what any of this would cost, or what order to stack the stretch goals in, or how much you could price the tier where people get a copy of the game for their phone.

Paul

[Ron Edwards]

Hi! I've been floating these very ideas past the software/website guy I want to work with. He's pricing it out now, thinking in terms of how much he'd  charge, and parsing the prototype (which would be live for the Kickstart) vs. the advanced/graphics versions.

Pending a feasible outcome of his cost-analysis, I think the Kickstart will feature two loosely-married goals: (i) the art/play gallery and (ii) the online-play app, the latter for Google Hangouts for sure and possibly for smartphone.  He tells me that Skype is not reasonably feasible though.

Arguably the archive that on-line play could feed into would then be available to gamers to write up further for the gallery, but I don't want to link the two functions any more thoroughly than that.

So you know, the utterly non-automated gallery is slowly coming into action as we speak, and although no art has yet appeared, it is indeed being scribbled. So not too long from now, I'll post the link and let everyone see the embryonic form of what I'm talking about. And as I said before, the minimally-functional-not-fancy play app will be available as soon as it's ready. I am taking Vincent's advice very seriously so that both these things can legitimately, if minimally/plainly, be in public action by the time the Kickstart begins. Actually, by the time I post the draft for general internet review as I did for the Sorcerer Upgrade. (Oh: and I'm calling this one the "S/Lay w/Me Art & Play Webjam."

Good news though: I have been astounded at the enthusiasm of various people who are working to make cool rewards. The progrock is incredibly good - my little son came by while I was listening to the preliminary midi version of one of the songs, and he got this wild happy look and starting dancing all over the place, this to a song provisionally called "The evil pieces of my bride in the sepulchre," or something like that. The miniatures are nothing less than astounding; the monster from the cover is even more menacing out of the shadows than in, and the artist is taking its posture very seriously so it's not just sitting there, but ready to spring. A bunch of people have agreed to be "play with me" rewards in various parts of the world. I've actually had to exert a little effort to damp down the social-media action so it doesn't boom before the practical stuff is ready.

Best, Ron