NGH, IWNAY, Lines, Veils

[Moreno R.]

Thinking about it, they are too many things...

"No One Gets Hurts" (it was "Nobody Gets Hurts", why the name change?) and "I will not abandon you" are two kind of social contract, but they are two way to design games, too.

And Lines and veils? They exist in every game session (everybody veil some thing and draw the line sometimes) in a informal way, but they are a technique to manage problematic materials during the game, too: simply, the group accept that everyone can call "lines" and "veils" to protect himself any time.

The relationship is complicated: should IWNAY push over lines? If it's game design, I don't see how. (a book can't make you do anything). If it's a kind of social contract, and the line is not stated, passing it is almost the definition of IWNAY play. But if the line is explicitly stated, not respecting it would be bullying and dysfunctional play.

In IWNAY play with explicit stated lines and veils, the "I will not abandon you" is better seen from the point of view of the one who want to call the line: "I will try to stay with you as far as I can, before asking for a line or a veil", but in this case, what become of the definition based about pushing other people's lines and veils?

Thoughts, anyone?

[Ron Edwards]

I've been wrestling a little bit with this issue too. My current thinking is that if Lines are real, then there's no such thing as a Line you're willing to tolerate crossing. If that's true, then IWNAY play cannot be said to challenge Lines - only to go into play willing to accept that your Lines may be broader, farther "out," than you might currently believe. Or perhaps to set your Lines based on some criterion besides/beyond sincere emotional responses that include feeling hurt.

What's tricky is explaining that to people who've had such bad experiences with emotional boundaries in role-playing, that they confound Nobody Gets Hurt with functional play. In other words, they interpret "hurt" as social and emotional abuse and from that perspective reasonably wonder why anyone sane would play anything but NGH. I think Vincent has struggled with this issue for quite a long time, as he likes IWNAY play and design, but people with strong NGH preferences or standards tend to try his games.

The more I think about it, the more I think Veils are less relevant to the NGH/IWNAY distinction ... but I also suspect that this may be an effect of talking to myself and merely reinforcing my own predilection for minimal Veils. So if anyone wants to raise a counter-argument I would very, very much appreciate it.

And damn, if there ever were a topic that demanded actual play to ground the discussion, this one's it. I'll try to come up with some examples and, everyone else, please provide any you think relevant.

Good point about "Nobody." That's a clear case of me simply altering the phrasing without realizing it, which in this case is totally wrong to do because it's someone else's term.

Best, Ron