[S/Lay w/Me Kickstart] First draft at Kickstart site

[Ron Edwards]

So, the Kickstart page is ready for early review! I'd deeply appreciate your questions and comments on this draft.

The goal is the Google Hangouts app. The gallery is still part of the general upgrade for the game and the cost for automating it may well be defrayed by Kickstart funds, but it is no longer strictly the Kickstart's goal.

A few things to know.

1. I haven't made the videos yet and a few of the links are just placeholders – most significantly, the prototype app.

2. The web developer is working on the prototype app as we speak.

3. Click on a figurine link to see the Monster. The figurine of the Lover is being digitally sculpted as we speak. In case you're interested, these are the guys who are doing the minis.

4. Three of the songs are composed and the others are under way.

5. By the time of launch, the plan is to have several more artists' work up at the gallery.

6. New art for the game is proceeding swiftly.

After we thrash it here for a little while, when a few more of the things are available to see, and when identifying a launch date becomes practical, then I'll post at Story Games too, which was very helpful last time and made for good promotion too.

Best, Ron

[Eero Tuovinen]

Various thoughts:

Have you explored the Kickstarter terms of use, and determined how you'll react at various stages of the project if they drop the hammer due to a morality clause? I'm not saying that this would be likely or justified, just that it's probably a good idea to consider the scenario in advance. (Personally I've no idea if e.g. nudity in promotional materials suffices as cause here.)

One would expect a bit longer description of the project's goal. The prototype will be good, but even better would be a couple of mock-up illustrations of what it'll look like in use, and a comprehensive feature list - basically, double the word-count of the first section. Also, I'd move the gallery into its own section, with its own mock-ups and feature-list - it's a separate enough and interesting enough idea to spotlight, even if it's technically merely a stretch goal (or is it - you're too vague here, perhaps because you don't quite know the details yet).

A key notion here is that while we think that both of these ideas are compelling, this won't be the case for somebody coming onto the page cold; it'll be important to share the dream in as concrete a manner as possible, so they grog why you're excited about it as well.

Also, it doesn't hurt to repeat the numbers in the text description. You could say explicitly that if you can get 10 000 dollars you'll be able to fund the online-play software, and if you can get X dollars more, you'll be able to do this and that with the gallery idea.

I like the rewards, they're pretty nifty. Not for me for the most part, of course, being as how non-commercial I am. However, I could see these being a significant argument for many people to throw a bit of money your way.

A suggestion: why not provide a pdf version of the game to anybody who contributes, whatever the amount? Essentially a pay-what-you-want way of getting the game for a limited time. This would make sense for contributors who come from outside our immediate sandbox, or even roleplaying altogether, and it'd make sense for you as well: either the contributor already has the game (in which case it doesn't hurt you to give it to them), or they don't, in which case you'd want them to get it, read it, play it, and up their contribution once they get excited about it. Seems to me that it'd be much easier to get a $25 commitment out of somebody who's checked out the pdf version and found it agreeable. Or you could make it $5 minimum if you wanted to, I guess, although "hey, that Edwards guy is giving his game out for free during his Kickstarter" sounds to me like it has viral potential - definitely something I'd tell my friends. My gut says that a Kickstarter for this type of project would benefit from taking this sort of aggressive stance.

The goal amount is ambitious, and probably not achievable from the hard core of your audience; on the other hand, it sounds about right for the scope of the project, and it doesn't hurt to try, so I've no complaint. Success will rely on luring in non-RPGing weird fantasy enthusiasts of various sorts, I suspect; people who want the nifty miniatures, fantasy fiction hobbyists, fantasy metal music enthusiasts, and in general everybody who's compelled by the game's art. It's a pretty mainstream customer demographic in a sense, compared to many rpg audiences.

A technical point: how will shipping expenses be collected? Will you provide a table that cross-references rewards and destinations so people can add extra money accordingly, or will you collect shipping costs with separate Paypal payments afterwards? Both are conseivable, but the text doesn't comment.

Another technical point: you do not need multiple reward tiers here, and I for one would find it more elegant if you didn't have them when they don't do anything. It would suffice to have one tier at $25 stating thus:

"You get one of the reward items, chosen by survey at the end of the funding period. For each additional full $25 in your contribution you get one more item. For physical items you'll pay postage [according to my chosen method]."

(Of course, if you like the idea of giving out the pdf for less money, you could set that single reward tier at $0 or whatever and say that "I'll mail you the pdf version of the game immediately, and you get one reward item from the list for each full $25 in your contribution"; that'd be equivalently clear.)

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Eero,

Thanks for the comments. The ones which really jump for me are ...

1. The titties problem. All projects are reviewed by Kickstarter staff for approval long before they're allowed to go live. Therefore there's no danger of the issue disrupting the Kickstart in action. If they don't like the titties, they'll tell me beforehand and I will painlessly replace the image with another one. I'm sure there's a S/Lay w/Me illustration without bare-nakedness somewhere ... um ... wait ...

2. The free PDF suggestion. That's a really good idea. One concern is whether I'll use the original or the revised (30 page) version, or a stripped-down version of the revised version. "Stripped-down" meaning in terms of the essays and other non-rules materials, and the number of included illustrations. Another concern is whether doing this will ruin the "buy the book" reward item.

3. Your point about shipping is definitely a sticky issue I'm still trying to work out. I really want to use the "choose your own at the end" model I've developed. But all the items are NOT equal because some need to be shipped, and there is no way in hell, no way, I can absorb the shipping costs. I can add text to the physical items' descriptions, but that violates my plan of not making people choose until the end. I'm sure I can find a solution to this, but at the moment I'm still brainstorming about it.

Regarding the reward tiers: with respect, it's clear that you haven't run a Kickstart. Backers never read anything except the reward tiers.* Your suggestion about elegance with a single reward would be incredibly non-functional. My way, they know what they're getting: one, two, three, et cetera things. Making them go look at the list of things is already pushing them out of their ordinary habits, although I think it will pay off when they see the list.

I completely agree about the vague language about the goal(s). I'm still figuring out how to phrase it.  I know I want the real and identifiable goal to be the app. I really don't want to treat the gallery as a goal, but it's also true that without some of the funds from the Kickstart, it'll only be upgraded a little bit from its current state. I think it's best described as "going to happen no matter what," and keep it as a feature of the ongoing upgrade for the game, than as a goal. How to state that properly is a question, but given my point above, it's not like anyone is going to be reading this exhaustively anyway.

Best, Ron

* Which combines strangely with the fact that backers get irritated unless you send updates regularly. They really want updates but are curiously uninterested in reading them.

[Dan Maruschak]

I think you might want to add at least some minimal description of what Google Hangouts are in the description. Presumably some people will be reading this because they're fans of you or your games but not necessarily familiar with online gaming, and if they aren't familiar with Google+ then they might have a hard time even parsing what you're talking about. It might be nice to give those people at least some orientation so that can get the gist of what you're saying without having to do independent research.

From the other direction, people who are already familiar with Google Hangout gaming are likely going to wonder why this app instead of other alternatives (I believe that a lot of people use the Roll20 virtual tabletop, although I've never tried it myself). However, I imagine that the actual link to the alpha will clear up some of the "but what does it do?" questions I had while reading.

On the "select at the end" thing, some people hate having decisions hanging over their heads. For them, a "fire and forget" approach is preferable, where everything is locked in when they make their reward selection and the post-funding survey is a bit of a formality. If it takes long enough between when they decide to back the project and when the survey goes out they may even forget what rewards they were excited about. Personally, I think you'd be better off offering up-front selections, with one of the choices being "I'll decide later" if that's important, so that you can accommodate people who just want to make their selection once and then not need to spend brain cycles on the project until their rewards arrive. Leaving the price for shipping until the end seems like it could be a recipe for confusion, too.

[Ron Edwards]

Thanks Dan! I will totally explain the Google Hangouts connection exactly as you say.

The problem with Kickstart reward tiers is that they can't be combined freely. Instead, they assume a hierarchy: that if you want the third tier, then (i) it's more money and (ii) it includes the first and second ones. Which makes it very, very hard to offer rewards that are definitely not hierarchies, at least not without incredibly tedious interactions - and as you say, interactions/processing is precisely the feature to avoid.

I was impressed by a pop-up menu that the Agnostic Giraffe guys used in their kickstart, which included my choice of one figure from a batch of them as part of my reward. It popped up, all the figures from that batch were featured with little open circles there, I clicked on one, and that was it. What I'm trying to do here is have the entire reward structure use that menu: in the survey at the end, it pops up, all the rewards are displayed, you click on a permitted number of them (obviously different for each tier) and that's it!
(adding this in for clarity: the little menu thing appeared only during the survey at the end, not when you first pledge)

I know it's never been done before, but it's amazingly functional and I bet people will really like it. And you can fire-and-forget, because you only have to pick once, it's not like you pick first, are forced to remember it, and then get asked later.

The only trouble is the shipping for some things and not others. I think that can be surmounted though, with a bit more imagination. It's not the concept that's hard - people are OK with paying shipping, I think - it's pure logistics and presentation at the entry-point.

Best, Ron

[ndpaoletta]

So here's the only usability problem I see:

(1) I pledge for, say, 2 things (the $50 level). Cool, I'll pick them when I get to the survey at the end, great!
(2) I'm not sure what I want yet, so I don't really think about it. That survey will remind me, after all.
(3) The Kickstarter funds! My card is charged for $50!
(4) I get the survey. Oh, I want the book and the poster - that's shipping. But my card has already been charged, so I can't just up my pledge. Do I need to paypal you now? Or what?

Possible solutions:

(1) All shipping will be handled AFTER the project ends, via Paypal (or some other third-party money exchange platform)
(2) Each reward level has a digital-only and a physical-items entry (So it goes "$25 for one reward item, digital only" | "$30 for one reward item, physical" | "$50 for two reward items, digital only" | "$60 for two reward items, physical") etc. Make the extra $5 a ballpark "average" and plan on eating a little bit of shipping, maybe, if people load up the physical items. This does mean you have more reward cruft, visually, but it uses the tools you have available to you and I think will only take one read-over for the backer to understand. It does mean that they essentially commit to physical or digital when they pledge, but keep in mind people can change their pledges, so it's not like it's the end of the world.
(3) Commit to a constant Update campaign of "PLEASE UPDATE YOUR PLEDGE WITH $5 PER PHYSICAL ITEM" as you get close to the end of the campaign, and plan for some people not to do it.

Also, along the lines of fire-and-forget thinking, it may be worth to have a simple $25 (+shipping) -for-the-book reward, as I imagine that's going to be what a bunch of your audience will want off the bat. I personally would have a $10 (or whatever) PDF as well, but that's me.

[Marshall Burns]

I'm not really "up on" Kickstarter, so I don't have much constructive to add, but I see you're going to fulfill the music digitally. Are you going to host it somewhere people can download it at will a la the Forge Bookshelf? Because if so I'm wondering if you've thought about making it available in different formats. People who just want to download it quickly and don't really care about compression will be happy with 128kbps mp3, but there are many people who want lossless formats like .wav -- which are roughly 100x larger, so there's potential bandwidth issues. And then there's the occasional folks who won't settle for anything but Ogg Vorbis format (I'll have to check, but I think my software can render those too).

Or maybe what I can do is upload the lossless originals to Bandcamp.com (who make every format available for you) and free download permission can be granted individually to the backers (I think I can do that, but I'll have to make sure). Unfortunately, I think (gah maybe I should research more before talking) that means they'd have to sign up with Bandcamp, and additional hoops for people to jump through might not be the best thing.

Also, I'd like to work the name "the Dream & Shadow Huntsman Group" into the description of the music reward. Not because people will be like, "omg the DASHG! I love that band" (maybe one dude who has happened to buy my ancient CD ten years ago, but improbable), but because it's some exposure for the name and eventually I'd like to Kickstart a proper album.

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Marshall! Dream & Shadow et cetera it is; I'll put that in there.

That's a good point. I think that people who back the kickstart will have to take the mp3 and like it, and I'll either do it via the Bookshelf* or some very similar service. People who want the really complete music files will have to buy it from you, which is completely under your control. So you can set that up optimally for yourself and for whatever needs you decide to serve.

Best, Ron

* This worked quite well for the Kickstart although it was labor-intensive for a few days.

[Ron Edwards]

Thanks to everyone for the comments!

I've revised it a bit, to explain Google Hangouts a bit better and to show what the program does, and that's it's not just a dice table. It's really sketchy, but in combination with the links and the video I think it'll work.

I've settled on the final financial goal value and changed it, so that's fixed from now on.

I am a bit conflicted about the free PDF idea. I'm learning toward the free one being the original, without the extra text and clarifying revisions of the new book.  It's a very labor-intensive option, though, because I'd be managing Bookshelf entries for every single bleedin' backer throughout the Kickstart, and then at the end, I'd have to do that again for everyone who gets the new book too, for the PDF version.

I know what I'd like: for the new book pledge to be PDF only. That would save me eighteen kinds of headache, especially since it limits the shipping cost question to the miniatures. But I also know that a big Kickstart RPG demographic is predicated on "I pledge and I get a fucking book in the mail, done," and to defy that demographic is more than risky, it's probably fatal.

I'm still working on the logistics/presentation of the shipping costs. Nathan nailed the fundamental question, and I know there must be a way. I figure this topic will get beaten to a pulp at Story Games anyway, so I might leave off final decisions or commitments until then anyway.

Best, Ron

P.S. This is Ron and Marshall working on the songs: My Lovely Horse and The My Lovely Horse dream.

[Eero Tuovinen]

Looking good. I'm optimistic about that goal amount, it seems doable. Would help to have some visible contacts in rpg-external fantasy circles like, I don't know, among genre literature hobbyists (insofar as they're organized - I'm pretty big on fantasy literature myself, and I can't say that I'd hang on any particular forums or anything). Maybe send the game to some like-minded literary authors (WaRP comes to mind for some reason, probably because of the west-coastiness of the thing) well in advance, and ask them if they'd be nice enough to give you a blurb or even mention the on-coming crowdfund at their blog or similar venues. I could see the right sort of author going for it, as the game looks so fun, simple and energetic if you're into the genre of fantasy it portrays.

I like the clarified description of the project, it's straightforward and seems level-headed and a reasonable thing to do. An image of what the app would look like in use would still improve the impact here; perhaps the prototype will be suitable for a screen-capture.

In the same line, illustrative images of the reward options could increase appeal; I'm thinking of turning the list of rewards into a paragraph each, with a small picture of the reward item in question nested in each paragraph.

I am still skeptical of the utility of the multiple reward levels, but I don't foresee meaningful harm there, so no big deal.

Regarding the logistics of delivering free PDFs, manual access management is the wrong way to do it. The first alternative that comes to mind is that you could put the pdf up at a secret web address (password-protected if you feel like it), and then publish the address in a Kickstarter update set accessible to backers only. (I remember having seen such updates, so apparently they're possible in Kickstarter.) This way backers can go click your link in your exclusive update post to get the game immediately after they've backed you, and you don't need to do anything in particular about any individual backers. When the funding period ends you just remove the pdf from that address, and that's that. (Of course this method might have some minor leakage when people e.g. give the link to their friends during the funding period, but that sort of sharing is a fact of life with digital sales anyway, so who cares.)

As for shipping costs, assuming you know in advance what they are, I'd just put them clearly at the end of each reward entry's description: "The new spiffy book & PDF version of S/Lay w/Me. Add funds for shipping: $X in the USA, $Y globally." That's not entirely exact for when you ship multiple items to one address or ship to New Zealand or whatever, but I'd expect it to be close enough, given that the estimates for X and Y are sufficiently conservative.

[Ron Edwards]

Hi,

1. Downloading through a temporary link as you describe is a disaster. Remember, they don't read the updates and don't follow the instructions in them. People simply do not download in the period indicated, then they post later with plaintive or accusatory public comments. Or they screw up the password, or they ... well, the point is, such a system turns into a management hassle basically forever, with no end in sight, in terms of both getting people their files and keeping a good public face on the whole thing.

The Bookshelf is incredibly superior. It notifies the user when I authorize for them, so they don't have to do anything and I don't have to follow up to make sure they do it. The user can download as many times as they like, forever - they effectively own the download link. I receive notifications of downloads, so I can investigate if someone "mysteriously" downloads 27 times in a brief period (a rare event, actually). It's work to input the information, but once done, the task is literally over.

It also occurs to me that upgrading files at the Bookshelf is easy too, without any need for re-authorization. Maybe that'll be the way to go, depending on how I decide to manage the PDF give-away, if at all.

2. The postage option at the Kickstart page is not good enough for my needs. Postage varies significantly even within the domestic U.S., which is becoming very annoying. The Sorcerer Kickstart showed me that my customer-reach is truly global, lacking only Africa. Although I might calculate an average value for non-domestic postage, it'd display such a huge standard deviation as to be meaningless for charging individuals. In other words, it has to be an individual issue. The potential publicity problem of "I was charged $40 for shipping and I calculated that it only would have been $29 to get here," is real. People have to feel that it's fair.

I am currently thinking that the miniatures will be available only to domestic U.S. backers, and that the book is simply going to have to be a PDF with a printable version. People won't like it. But shipping costs skyrocketed in January (right during the Sorcerer Kickstart, damn it), and I must explain that we are talking about enormous costs, which I cannot bear, and that it really is much cheaper to take that PDF to the local printer and walk out with a real live book.

But that's only a thought. I know it would lose me a hell of a lot of backers. Whether those backers' collective contribution would merely represent money lost to shipping anyway, is a good question.

Best, Ron

[Eero Tuovinen]

Fair enough on both points, although I think you're either too sensitive to outlier complaints (the few grouchy and entitled people who find fault in others too easily), or don't trust the communal reasonability of the crowds in this information age. My experience has again and again been that even people who actually mess up disastrously will have plenty of understanding from the crowds as long as they communicate courteously, take responsibility and explain what's going on. I would expect that matters that are actually not human failures, but merely reasonable logistical compromises, would be judged even more leniently. I can't therefore really see anybody claiming that it'd be unfair for you to e.g. average postage over the globe for simplicity's sake - it's a free contract, anybody who feels that your logistical solutions cause the matter to be too expensive can just pass on the offer; you're not obligated to serve people at a price-point that they would find fair.

The same goes for offering the pdf during the funding period: why interpret the notion in a way that obligates you to maintain availability and makes sure everybody 100% gets theirs, when you could just make it a nice bonus for those who can read, with no intent to have it be a contractual obligation? This is how normal businesses deal with extra customer gifts, you can't complain after the sales campaign has ended if you forgot to take your complimentary t-shirt with you; that t-shirt is gone, it'd be too much to expect the shop to hold it for you indefinitely. It's not like the rest won't get the book sooner or later, and they can always get it from a friend (as in, pirate it) if they truly have a burning passion for it. Or you can just authorize the lagging 15% or whatever via the Bookshelf, and thus at least cut your administrative hassle by 85% compared to if you had to go via the Bookshelf for everybody. After all, the point of offering the pdf would be in getting the game to the hands of the people as quickly as possible, already during the funding period; if somebody comes looking for it after that time, there's not much point to it anymore from anybody's viewpoint: the actual finished book will soon be available, and there's no marketing interest for you in giving out the free pdf anymore. Seems to me that the only way to deal with a free give-away like that is to make it cut-and-done: it's a temporary opportunity, not something you'll be worrying over a year afterwards.

Regarding the postages, I suppose that if exact per-order budgeting is desired, then the only real way to do it is to collect postage expenses via Paypal after the funding period - preferably only just before the mail moves, so as to not stumble upon e.g. a book being heavier than expected. Frog God Games has arranged their Kickstarters like this: you pay for the product in the Kickstarter, but they'll calculate the postages on the basis of your mailing address and what you ordered much later, and only bill you for it when the product is ready to ship. I would probably prefer this as a customer most of the time, in fact, and I suspect that many kickstarters would find their budgeting much more realistic and simple with this approach. I don't know how they deal with people who find that the postage was more than they expected or wanted to pay, but I imagine that they'd keep the parcel in that situation. I suppose that there might again be a small percentage of idiots in the customer base who'd find complaint in that, but it would be a fair arrangement as long as it's communicated clearly and the early estimates about what the postages will be like aren't grossly underestimated.

[Troy_Costisick]

Heya Ron,

Just got my first look at this today.  I like it.  I do think the PDF idea is a good one, but I understand the tediousness of it.  I think you'll have a more successful Kickstarter if you throw that in.  And doing the original is just fine.

WRT to shipping, it's not uncommon for Kickstarters to have a domestic and international option at the same price point because of shipping.  For instance, check out this one: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/edara/edara-a-steampunk-renaissance-tabletop-rpg  If you made multiple $25 (or whatever) rewards, some with shipping and some without, that might solve your problem.  It's not perfect for what you want, but I'm not sure there is a perfect answer.

Another option would be to soften the language there a little bit.  Instead of "You pay shipping" you could write "For physical items, there may be additional shipping charges."

I think you need a $5 level, even if there is no actual reward for it other than credit as a backer.  There are plenty of people who'd love to help out, but $25 is out of their price range.  I know you can technically donate any amount, but if there's an option for them to see, I feel they'll be more likely to back you.

Anyway, I hope this is successful for you!

Peace,

-Troy

[emilycare]

Looks good, Ron. The app angle is exciting.

What about the difference in scope/number of rewards for some of the categories? Frex, it's fine to offer songs, minis and books to all the hundreds of people that buy in, but if you, Gregor and the others end up being committed to 50, or even 20 games each, that may be more of an investment of your time than you really want to make. Typically the "play with me" options seem to be on the order of 2-4 tops in these campaigns.

Likely you won't get huge numbers in this category (it's time and effort for the backers too), but if you did, how would you handle it?

[jrs]

Another comment about the "play with" rewards--I assume that because you have location restrictions you mean in-person play. You may want to state that, especially since the project is for developing online play. If you were to change the reward to online play, you could stipulate time zone and/or language restrictions.

Julie