Adpet Game Illustrations: Power Trippin'

[Erik Weissengruber]

I don't know much about comics and superheroes.

Across several fora I have seen critics of supers comics make a distinction between power fantasies and objectification in the depiction of bodies.

The argument runs: a skintight suit on a pumped and cut Batman is offering boys a wishfulfilment image while a cat woman hanging upside down or  in a crotch exposing kick is objectification.

This issue has been addressed here:
http://www.shortpacked.com/2011/comic/book-13/05-the-death-of-snkrs/falseequivalence/

and here:
http://www.themarysue.com/introducing-the-hawkeye-initiative/#0

Have you got feedback on your illos for the various Adept games along these lines?

The trollbabes and the heroines in S/L/ay with me are sexual and powerful. You know, like this one:
https://plus.google.com/116781946626781923658/posts/B8HBqxC3dCL.

But I am a guy.

Any customer feedback about this?

Just curious. Not trying to throw out some political correctness bait or trolling. I am really not informed on what people are saying about sexually charged images in comics and other fantastic illustrations.

[Moreno R.]

About the problem of using "sexy but not sexist" images in rpgs, Claudia Cangini (who did illustrate all the italian editions of Ron's rpgs, Trollbabe included) wrote about that in the "Gaming as Woman" blog:
http://www.gamingaswomen.com/posts/2012/11/sexy-for-the-ladies/

In the article she use Bacchanalia and 1001 Nights as examples, but these principles were used in the Trollbabe art too. These are some examples:
http://www.claudiacangini.com/index.cfm?pageID=6&illoID=61
http://claudiacangini.deviantart.com/art/Trollbabe-interior-illustration2-359598342
http://claudiacangini.deviantart.com/art/Trollbabe-interior-illustration-3-359598466  (not safe for work)

Other Trollbabe illustration from the other artist who worked on the italian edition, Tazio Bettin (under Cladia's art direction):
http://taziobettin.deviantart.com/art/Trollbabe3-drinking-185209760
http://taziobettin.deviantart.com/art/Trollbabe4-Flames-185209859 (not safe for work)
http://taziobettin.deviantart.com/art/Trollbabe1-Crown-185209489
http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2010/310/9/7/trollbabe11_the_spirit_by_sunamori-d329phu.jpg (not safe for work)

[Ron Edwards]

Part One (I hope you or anyone else can answer this part before addressing Part Two)
Introductory point: I am entirely uninterested in third-party or policy statements, e.g., what "others might think" or the impact of X upon some demographic like kids or boys or whomever, and what might be done or "allowed" about it. Much as these may apply to TV shows or video games, they certainly don't apply to my publications.

What do you think, Erik? Specifically of the Adept Press illustrations and their relationship to objectification. Please do not diminish your point of view by marginalizing your own gender.

Part Two
My take on these matters arises directly from a political moment, not because I chose it from history but because I lived it and was raised in it: precisely the point at which American feminist activism split apart, or rather when its differing origins manifested too strongly to ignore. I alluded to this in Naked Went the Gamer and am writing about it in detail for Amerikkka. Suffice to say that I remained with my own native faction, composed of sex-positive, pro-sex-work-rights, sex education, parody-mockery, hedonist, anarchist, explicit, and anti-establishment elements. Sharon Krebs' action at the 1968 Chicago Convention (scroll down after you link) is exactly my speed. Like all the factions (and here I include the whole spectrum of sex and gender politics, all the way to the most conservative), it carries inherent flaws.

This view did not prevail politically and is widely unpopular - at least, at the superficial level. In public discussions and especially in on-line public venues, I think people are effectively dishonest, i.e., with themselves, as in, they are not being intellectually or perceptually honest. They are not intentionally deceiving or posturing, but they're operating by standards that bear much criticism and that they themselves would not tolerate regarding other topics. Claudia's illustrations for Narrattiva publications (both superhero and fantasy) are twice as explicit than any in my books, and no one says boo. Hans objected to the Lover figurine on the basis of her being unrealistic, and when I pointed out that she is actually anatomically very accurate and not, for instance, "hourglass," he had the grace to admit that he'd reacted (over-reacted, in my terms) to her being topless. This grace is rare to vanishingly absent.

I avoid most of these on-line conversations assiduously, again, because most people's understanding of the issues historically begins at 1982 or so, even when or especially when that understanding is sophisticated. My upbringing and its deeply significant political history in the late-60s and all-70s coastal Californian activist scene is completely out of their cosmos.

At a person to person, informed conversation level, I have received a great deal of confirmation about the illustrations in my books from many people of all shapes & sizes. They say that the illustrations are typically frank but not dehumanizing - "refreshing" is a common term. I also note that the illustrations tend not to get brought up in the ordinary periodic discussions of the issue, at least not that I'm aware of. And also that a key weasel phrase "... it's OK by me but might give other people the wrong idea" does not tend to get applied to them either. Regarding me as an author and others as individual readers, the illustrations seem to hit the right mark.

S/Lay w/Me presents an interesting case for two reasons. First, because I'm letting my freak flag fly - and here I will log an objection to this phrase being applied to genuinely crazy or stupid people, as I'm using it in its original formation of pride, humor, and defiance. The book's original publication presented difficulties with the venue for the Naked Went the Gamer essay, and today I think the essay needs to be included with the rules to make this as explicit as possible.

This said, my intentions for those illustrations were met only to about ... at this moment, I'll say to about 60%. Ed's recent revision of the spider woman (not yet public) is vastly more what I wanted; she is standing in a very different posture and exudes confidence, opening the door to invitation, threat, or actual human contact, depending on what "you" the viewer-character does. So I share certain objections about objectification in some of the illustrations as they currently stand, although overall I think the book errs on the better side - as I say, at 60%, with 50% being my personal cutoff. I still note that objections tend to arise only at first glance, and to diminish upon next-contact pretty quickly.

A POINT
To others reading this post, I'm interested in your views, but responses along the lines of "I showed the book to my girlfriend and she wrinkled her nose" have no value. I showed the book to your girlfriend and she liked it fine. By which I mean, the act is too charged with social and relationship implications for people's responses to be meaningful.

Best, Ron

[Erik Weissengruber]

I like the images. The artists all seem to get what the games are about.

I looked at the range of covers and said "Damn, he did it. He managed to put out games that are charged with sex but without playing on sniggering arrested-adolescent tropes."

It's really great stuff. My question was about your work as a publisher. Is the sex-and-power aesthetic something that your customers have picked up on?

There was a Color-first character creation thread a while back. Was the Color that these books broadcast something that drew new customers, rather than return customers like myself.

[Callan S.]

In regards to the first comic, it'd be interesting to release the same batman comic twice, one with catwoman done as usual and the second with 'kissy lips' batman (which is just one type of preference women might have, I hasten to add) and catwoman as - well, I dunno, demure or whatever the way they'd want her depicted (perhaps depicted cold and distant - ala how batman is usually depicted) - but both are the exact same story and dialog.

Basically showing how two sexualities* warp the very fabric of the universe (or so they appear to)

* Treating male and female sexuality as two, rather than clumping them both into hetro (and never mind the other variant sexualities for now!!)

[Ron Edwards]

I generally practice draconic art direction with some wiggle room for the artist to use. My usual art deal describes seven or eight images ("nude woman with spider legs growing out of her back, thigh-high in swamp water") or ideas ("a monster stalking and considering entering your own actual place of residence"), then the artist chooses or suddenly gets an idea of his or her own inspired by the list.

But artists are a frisky bunch and sometimes have original ideas of their own from scratch too, so I try to stay open to it. Some of the art in Trollbabe was entirely artist-original, including some really good pieces like the trollbabe interfering with some kind of deal in a city street - you know something's happening for sure, but not what.

In almost all cases, I like to chat a bit with artists through the initial sketch process - sometimes my suggestions really take off for them, and other times they stay with their plans. Thomas and I had a really good time working together on the new Sorcerer covers this way - fortunately one of my skills is to know when that phase is over and to let the artist be in charge thereafter. This interaction is sometimes made impossible by time pressures and I'm almost always less happy with the results - not so much in the execution and skill, but rather the shifts in emphasis that would have let the artist know "where we're going with this."

My guides for drawing women include anatomical statements about breasts ("enough room between them to put your hand flat") and limb length, as well as a general recommendation to use clothes. You can pretty much judge when an artist was either intractable or we didn't have time to talk enough, by the degree to which such standards fail to be met in my illustrations. I noticed that Claudia exerted a lot of editorial authority on Tazio for his Trollbabe illustrations (which are incredibly good) along these lines, judging from the portfolio he showed me and his depictions for other games.

I'm still bummed about the Lover figure. Tyler was adamant that she not only be anatomically realistic, but also made sure that every single thing she was wearing was physically possible and comfortable, and I was delighted to find a sculptor with these values. I have the files for the figures and plan to get them printed for myself.

I recommend going back in time to read the Trollbabe comix. I think that I and the various artists did an especially good job of depicting women with bodies and minds in action, and I sought to achieve extremely specific thematic points with the naked sequences.

[Erik Weissengruber]

Given that Ron was laying down some of the background to his illustration policy with Adept, I thought I would give the background to the question I asked:

My take on nudity and explicitness in games -- and the judgments made about them -- is affected by:

a) rootedness in old-style populist social democracy;
b) rejection of simplistic "free speech" bromides;
c) a post-aesthetic aesthetics.

a) Political changes of a lasting kind and wide scope are created by group adherence to standards of behaviour and commitment to goals. We have the NDP in Canada: you need to get my old-skool socialist grandmother, a co-op farmer from Saskatchewan, and a single parent in downtown Vancouver working together. Traditionally such mass political movements have encouraged sobriety, seriousness, and a preference for arts that encourage harmony between members and spread generally progressive sentiments. This -- entirely pragmatic -- political correctness becomes stifling

• in social democracy and terroristic in revolutionary regimes. The avant, weird, and freaky art that I love is often at odds with the social-transformational politics that I support as a voter.
  
  
  
• A Toronto mayor once objected to the presence of the dork rock band Barenaked Ladies at a civic event because their name was sexist. I understand the impulse but as in so many cases its implementation was patronizing and utterly unnecessary.

[Erik Weissengruber]

My take on nudity and explicitness in games -- and the judgments made about them -- is affected by:

a) rootedness in old-style populist social democracy;

I understand the politically correct impulse to say: "In the interest of encouraging positive interaction and solidarity, it would be tactful to restrain yourself from simply spewing out any impression or sentiment which happens to cross your mind." Just because you feel like making a cartoon about Dickwolves or making a tentacle violation game doesn't mean you should. And I regard you poorly as a person for choosing to do so. I prefer to give the cold shoulder and to vote with my dollar rather than protesting or lecturing, but I act out of the same impulse.

[Joshua Bearden]

Thank you Erik for creating this thread. Although it started as a direct question to Ron about his illustration choices, it opens up a topic that has been of significant interest to me for the past 18-24 months. There are very few internet forums however, where I believe it would be remotely productive to attempt this conversation.  This, I think is one of the few. 

With your blessing Ron, I wonder if a new thread, perhaps in "Your Stuff" could be productive.

In any case, for the purpose of this thread, Erik. Can you tell me what...

c) a post-aesthetic aesthetics.

means?

[Ron Edwards]

The idea of me bestowing blessings would probably horrify a number of people I've known through the years ... go for it, Joshua.

Also, Erik has more to say about this I think, but may be having trouble posting.

[Erik Weissengruber]

Here is the link to the rant: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BydqD0gIRii_N3YwMU44RmV6Mnc

[Ron Edwards]

For those who are interested, Zak, Erik, and I are having a berserk discussion about his post (same one as linked here) on G+. Please no interruptions, it's kind of personal and not suitable for pile-ons.
Best, Ron

[Moreno R.]

I can't read it, I think it's a private thread.

[Ron Edwards]

I finally figured that out with another friend's help. The intricacies of G+ are still eluding me, especially when I make the mistake of thinking "it's the internet" and so links are easy. I could share it publicly at G+, then link to the shared version, but given what we're talking about, that would probably lead to insane hassles ... anyway, the best thing I can think of is when it reaches its ordinary conversational end, gather it up into a new document and then link to it here. I apologize for the inadvertent tease.
Best, Ron

[Joshua Bearden]

For those who are interested, Zak, Erik, and I are having a berserk discussion about his post (same one as linked here) on G+. Please no interruptions, it's kind of personal and not suitable for pile-ons.
Best, Ron

Hey! This sounds suspiciously similar to the type of discussion I specifically hoped to get into by pledging in the S/Lay kickstarter.  I'm overcome with demonic envy!