[Sorcerer] the big fight: questions

[Moreno R.]

First, to my players:  Alessandro, Giulia, Simone, don't read this, it's full of spoilers!


I mean it! Stop right now!





OK, now that we have some privacy....

My last session of Sorcerer ended with 2 sorcerers and 2 demons beginning an attack on the house of another sorcerer, with a fourth sorcerer present, and 3 other demons, and a possessed innocent bystander. Seeing that this is by far the most complex conflict I even had to run in this game, this thread is for specific questions about the specific situation.

A quick who's who with just enough information to understand the situation (I will add other informations later if necessary)

The conflict center around Isabella (PC) and Selene (NPC), two ex-friends who collaborated for a time in occult researches, and now they are two rival sorcerers. Selene tried to have Isabella killed, Isabella thinks that her old friend is controlled by a very powerful parasite demon and that she can still be "saved".  So she plans to attack Selene's house to kill the demon (or banish it or contain it) without hurting Selene (that she wants to "save" after all). To do this, Isabella ask the help of the only other Sorcerer she knows, Antonio (a guy with a very powerful demon dog, and the only other bit Isabella knows about him is that he sacrificed his best friend a few days before to raise someone from the dead...). For still unknown reasons, Antonio agreed to help her
Antonio's demon, Igriph, is a passer (dog) that can shapeshift in a monstrosity with Pow/Will 13 and stamina/lore 12, with "big", "armor", three different special attacks (claws, breath, poisonous scorpion tail), that can fly (travel+transport) and enhanced perception of sorcerers and demons (it can feel their presence even if it don't see or smell them)
Isabella's demon, Damian, is a passer (human) with stamina 6, will/power 9, lore 8, with "fast", "armor" (he can turn into mist - he is practically a vampire, his need is human blood), "vitality" (to activate it Damian needs to drinks human blood, that does not count for his need), protection from psychic attacks and 2 guns that deal special lethal damage.

Igriph take the others, flying, to the roof of Selene's house. It's multi-storey building in the center of the city, Selene lives right under the roof, there is a locked door from the apartment to the roof.  Igriph  sense 2 sorcerer and 3 demons inside (the second sorcerer is the third PC, that is with Selene at the moment entirely by chance. He is in fact her prisoner, and she is at the moment "talking" to his demon, a object (a book) that is not very happy about it's current owner (he was organizing the construction of a holding device to contain it and avoid having to feed it) and has the strength to break the binding if it wants (it has Pow 13 - the players were almost in a race to create the more powerful demons...)

I will have probably more questions later (and for these I will give more information about the situation inside the apartment) but for the moment, I have doubts about these things:

1) Contain: can a contain be used to keep demons OUTSIDE a place? The rules says that "containing a demon means limiting its movement, whether to a certain vicinity or relative to another person or object. A Contained demon absolutely cannot move itself outside or across the Contain's boundaries.". So reading that it would seem that it is indeed possible...  but all the rest of the chapter assume as a given that the demon is contained INSIDE a barrier, not outside (the rules about the protection from the effects of the need assume this too).
I am asking because it's the very first thing a paranoid sorcerer like Selene would do to her house, to keep away any not-invited demon...

2) IF it's possible to create a barrier to keep demons away....  I don't think the monstrosity that is Igriph will have a lot of trouble breaking through anyway, but how many actions it will need to use? I mean, to be able to enter Igriph will have to break through the door (and the walls around the door...  Igriph is too big to pass into that door without taking a big chunk of the wall with him), and that is an action: does it break through the contain barrier too, with the same action, of it needs two actions and two rolls?
My current thinking is that the roll to break the barrier is the only one it should need, and "breaking the wall" is the fictional descriptive description of Igriph breaking the barrier (if he doesn't beat the barrier with its roll, he can't break the walls and cannot enter). This would mean that by breaking the wall Igriph would destroy the contain spell and allow Damian to enter without rolling. Is this correct by the rules?

3) If Igriph fail the roll to break the barrier, it can try again or that's it, it can't enter? (until someone break the wall to allow it to enter, at least). Or it can try again? Under which circumstances? Can it try right away as the following action?

Leaving the questions about the contain, next I have some questions about the general conduction of the scene.

When the PCs arrived on the roof, their intention to avoid being noticed for the moment was already, I think, a conflict of interests. But, in part to allow them to say what they were doing without having to begin rolling dice (and that would have stopped the session right there, there was not the time for the conflict) and in part because the idea of rolling perception dice for anybody at that moment and any following action until they attacked did seems really a lot of trouble, I decided to conflate any chance to surprise (or not) in the first roll of conflict, following a (simpler) example in the book.

What I mean is: when the PC will attack breaking though the door, I will leave to the order of actions decided by the dice the determination about Selene (and her demons) being surprised or not: if she will act before the PC, she has heard or perceived them before they attack, if not, they surprise her.

This simplify a lot the initial setup of the battle, but lessen sensibly the effectiveness of Selene and her allies: in this way they at most get one action before the PCs can act, and they have not a lot of chances to beat the PC's demons rolls anyway.

The question is:

4) that simplification is allowed by the rules, or I should have begun to roll for Selene the very instant Igriph did land on the roof? (it's not too late, I could roll for her even now...)

Then, questions about demons rebelling and breaking bonds.

Reading the game manual, to make a demon rebel to the point of breaking the binding take a lot of time and a lot of rough treatment from the Sorcerer.

In this case, we have a controlled PC (Alessandro, taken to humanity zero with a taint from Selene's parasite demon) with lore 4, and a very, very powerful object demon (the book, Slaneesh: pow 13) that has a +3 on the binding roll, that has seen his "master" prepare a prison for it, to avoid giving it what it "needs" (the book only asked him to make his lover suffer and write how that make him fell, after all: a reasonable request in its view). And now a new sorcerer, Selene, is offering to the book to satisfy its need if it switches sides...

Following the times given in the game manual, it's much too early, Slaneesh should still give Alessandro a lot of occasions to deliver what he promised: but, "thinking in the demon's shoes"... why should it? From the point of view of the Demon, Selene is a better "master" from every point of view. She is deranged, with no moral scruples anymore, more active and she has no reason to deny Slaneesh its need.   So at least Slaneesh should give it a serious thought, giving his current master a simple choice: "dude, give me what I asked for, right now, and stop even thinking about containing me, or I will break up with you and follow this nice sorceress who is promising to feed me a lot"

This is important even in the middle of the conflict and even if Slaneesh has really no offensive powers of its own, because Selene will try to flee if Igriph break the barrier (would you try fight a 4-meters high flying werewolf that breath flames and has a scorpion tail?) and she has very good chances to be able to (her parasite give her "fast", and it has more power than the only opponent with the same ability, Damian. And she has "armor" in case Damian shoot her). And Slaneesh has the power to teleport in her pocket when she run, if it wants....

So.... 

5) Can Slaneesh try to break the binding at this time (or menace to do so, with real "weight" behind the menace) or it still too soon?

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Moreno,

1) Contain: can a contain be used to keep demons OUTSIDE a place?

Yes.

2) IF it's possible to create a barrier to keep demons away....  I don't think the monstrosity that is Igriph will have a lot of trouble breaking through anyway, but how many actions it will need to use?

One action to challenge the Contain and one to destroy the wall. The wall counts very much in this case as an oppositional character. Challenging the Contain must come first (see below).

3) If Igriph fail the roll to break the barrier, it can try again or that's it, it can't enter? (until someone break the wall to allow it to enter, at least). Or it can try again? Under which circumstances? Can it try right away as the following action?

If it fails to break the Contain, it cannot try again unless the circumstances change in some overall, conflict-altering way.

You may be underestimating the importance of a Contain as a barrier. If the sorcerer puts it up as a way to keep demons from traversing a certain way, then it will stop them from doing that. You don't "go around" a Contain; it operates on principle, not on physics. The sorceress put this Contain up to keep demons from entering her abode from the roof. If that Contain's not broken, no demons are going through that way.

It's true that demolishing the whole physical context of the Contain will ruin the Contain. However, a demon cannot do that, only someone else. Otherwise the whole point of Contains is lost; they'd only be as strong as their physical presence. So if a demon wants to destroy an item which is currently the physical "body" for the Contain, it has to break the Contain first.

When the PCs arrived on the roof, their intention to avoid being noticed for the moment was already, I think, a conflict of interests. But, in part to allow them to say what they were doing without having to begin rolling dice (and that would have stopped the session right there, there was not the time for the conflict) and in part because the idea of rolling perception dice for anybody at that moment and any following action until they attacked did seems really a lot of trouble, I decided to conflate any chance to surprise (or not) in the first roll of conflict, following a (simpler) example in the book.

That's fine. Fuck perception rolls anyway. The only way I'd add an intermediary step in this case is if one of the demons inside the building had some ability that was pertinent to doing so, and some reason to be using it.

This simplify a lot the initial setup of the battle, but lessen sensibly the effectiveness of Selene and her allies: in this way they at most get one action before the PCs can act, and they have not a lot of chances to beat the PC's demons rolls anyway.

That's what she gets for pissing off a sorcerous friend and then not stationing a demon right there at the roof with its ears twitching. There are two kinds of sorcerers: paranoid and dead.

About Slaneesh, you play the demons, and that's the end of that whole set of questions. I suggest that given the brief history of conflict between Slaneesh and its master, that you have Slaneesh tell the character its concerns, in no uncertain terms: if the character refuses to promse to quit this course of action Slaneesh doesn't like, then it will abandon him right this minute. Choose.

That seems to me to satisfy your twin concerns that (i) Slaneesh is at the end of its rope and (ii) the history of conflict seems too brief to justify a full-on, all-done rebellion.

Best, Ron

[Moreno R.]

Hi Ron! Thanks! Now it's much more clear!

Still about contains: a contain that is not specific to a particular demon, does disappear when one demon overcome it (as it would seem from the use of the verb "break"), or it will still block another demon, or it depends on the kind of contain and what was specified when it was made?

Talking again about the situation in my game: there are two demons that want to enter but are blocked by the contain. From what the player said last time, the first one to enter will be Igriph (breaking through the contain, the door and the wall)

1st case: Igriph does break through the contain, and then the wall. Damian quickly follow in the breach. Does Damian still have to roll to pass the magic barrier? And if he does, did Igriph "weaken" the barrier passing through? (for example, lessening the number of dice for the barrier by the number of Igriph's victories). Does the GM roll again for the barrier or, at least for the same scene, he keep the rolled values?

A demon that pass the barrier can destroy the physical object that cause the barrier - in this case, Igriph could bring down the entire wall, instead of simply passing through - or even after overcoming it, the demon can't destroy it physically?

2nd case: Igriph fail, the barrier still stand. Can Damian try to pass, even if he is less "strong" (both in Stamina and Power) than Igriph? If he can try, does the GM roll again for the barrier, or Damian has to overcame the same rolled values?
If Damian get to pass, and this weaken the barrier, does this allow Igriph to try again, or the situations is not "changed enough" for that?

If both Igriph and Damien fail, the only way the Sorcerers have to allow them to pass is to physically destroy the barrier (the wall in this case), or they can try to change or delete the contain using Lore?

3) This did come up when Isabella and Antonio were debating the best way to attack Selene: what about parasites and possessor demons passing a "contain" barrier? Does the host get stopped too, or the host can pass freely and the demon stay behind if not physically tied to the host? What about "trap" contains, the ones that capture a demon that touch them, for example? Could a trap of this kind "trap" a possessor demon if the host touch it?

Leaving contains for now, let's see another guest at Selene's apartment. It's Peter, the assassin possessor with hop, range, cloak and perception (he can perceive humanity and the associated stamina, so he is able to hop into victims he can't see and he can choose the weakest victims around. This work only when it hops, though,  so at this moment he is not able to perceive the PC in the roof). He is currently possessing the innocent bystander.
My concept for this demon is that it's a disembodied spirit that uses bodies without any care for their well-being, seeing that it has never any problem in finding others. None of its powers protect the host. At the same time I don't want it to be too easy to kill. So I added armor (for himself). It should work like this:  when the host body is attacked, and both rolls to defend, the damage to the demon is lessened by the Armor, the damage to the body is not. Then, i wanted to use the death of the body as a cut-off to the damage to the demon: I mean, if the host body dies during an attack, the very first thing the demon will do when it will be able to act again is to "hop" into a new body, but in the meantime, between the death of the host and the hop, no physical attack of any kind can hurt the demon (a mental attack with psychic force could, if the user is able to perceive the disembodied spirit of the demon). I don't think I need to add any new power to get this, it's simply a matter of "to be able to kill it you have to be able to attack it", am I right?

(I like this because it give the demon even more reasons to choose weak people as bodies, and force PCs to be creative to kill it instead of using the usual "kill the host" approach...)

Having a hopping possessor demon and a Sorcerer currently at zero humanity (being hit by a taint) cause another question: if the demon possess the sorcerer, does this mean that the Sorcerer consciousness is destroyed, or the demon victories have to be more than the "untainted" humanity for that to happen?  What about NPC Sorcerers that are at zero humanity?

--
Last, something I thought I had understood, but reading the preview pdf of a chapter or "play Sorcerer" (from some years ago) made me doubt I got it wrong.

X and Y are fighting  X hit Y giving him 2 penalties (against Y's stamina of 3).  Let's suppose that the next one to attack will still be X, after both rolled again for their next action.  Y rolls only one die for a Stamina action, AND X has a 2-dice bonus to his attack roll against B, right?  So, X gets to add the roll-over victories to his next attack (if it logically follow from the previous one, something I think it's almost a given if you are continuing to pummel the same adversary) and Y gets damage penalties, right? You don't have to choose between the two....

I am asking because in that pdf, instead, the actions that cause damage ONLY give penalties (but gets no roll-over bonus), and the actions that don't cause damage directly ONLY give roll-over bonus dice....

[Ron Edwards]

When a demon overcomes a Contain, the Contain is destroyed. I believe this clarifies all your problems with the two demons and the Contain.

A demon that pass the barrier can destroy the physical object that cause the barrier - in this case, Igriph could bring down the entire wall, instead of simply passing through - or even after overcoming it, the demon can't destroy it physically?

This question makes no sense at all. My previous post explained this already. First, the Contain must be overcome, and if it is, then the Contain is gone, vanished, extinguished. Second, then the demon can bring down the wall, which I understood was necessary because the demon was too big to go through the constructed entryway. I am confused by your phrase "... instead of simply passing through" because you described the demon as too big to do that. If the demon is not too big to go through the constructed entryway, then all this talk of bringing down the wall is completely irrelevant.

2nd case: Igriph fail, the barrier still stand. Can Damian try to pass, even if he is less "strong" (both in Stamina and Power) than Igriph? If he can try, does the GM roll again for the barrier, or Damian has to overcame the same rolled values?

If Damian get to pass, and this weaken the barrier, does this allow Igriph to try again, or the situations is not "changed enough" for that?

You are making this SO DIFFICULT that I am becoming frustrated. If Igrish fails, then Damian can challenge the Contain (or Damian could have tried first, it doesn't matter). If the Contain is successfully challenged, it goes away. It breaks. It is gone. It is no longer there. It is an ex-Contain.

If the first demon fails to overcome the Contain, then the second demon faces a new roll from the Contain's creator. I'll give you credit here for asking a good question.

If both Igriph and Damien fail, the only way the Sorcerers have to allow them to pass is to physically destroy the barrier (the wall in this case), or they can try to change or delete the contain using Lore?

The sorcerers cannot challenge the Contain as if they were demons. They can use Lore rolls (against the Contain, i.e., the sorceress' defensive roll) to modify their attempt to destroy the door.

But why you are obsessing about this when the demon has a Power of fucking 13, I do not understand. If its Stamina is 12, it can rip that door apart. Why are you bothering me with this nonsense?

3) This did come up when Isabella and Antonio were debating the best way to attack Selene: what about parasites and possessor demons passing a "contain" barrier? Does the host get stopped too, or the host can pass freely and the demon stay behind if not physically tied to the host?

I am about to fly over to Italy and beat all of you with a stick. What about, what about, what about ...? Jesus, are you all playing AD&D2? Is this some kind of group-assisted schizophrenia? Quit it!

Use your mind. 1. A person hosting a parasite or possessor cannot get through a Contain, obviously. 2. The phrase "... not physically tied to a host" is infuriating. A parasite or possessor is necessarily tied to a host, unless it is currently not in a host. If either were currently not in a host, then the whole question becomes irrelevant.

What about "trap" contains, the ones that capture a demon that touch them, for example? Could a trap of this kind "trap" a possessor demon if the host touch it?

When people yap about "what about" like this, they are trying to get around rules. It isn't honest, Moreno. And for whatever reason, you are vulnerable to it, following them down the rabbit hole and trying to debate with them in the land of already-crazy. 

Use your mind II. A trap-Contain traps the demon. Contains do not work on people. Period. What do you fucking think that means for a parasite or a possessor? There is one, single, clear, and only answer to this question. The demon is trapped and the person hosting the demon is now limited by that trap. If the person continues to host the demon, they remain trapped together. If the person and demon become separated, then the person can leave but the demon cannot. (sigh) And, no, simply passing through the boundary of a Contain does not automatically separate the demon and the host.

Peter is a pretty cool demon.

... in the meantime, between the death of the host and the hop, no physical attack of any kind can hurt the demon (a mental attack with psychic force could, if the user is able to perceive the disembodied spirit of the demon). I don't think I need to add any new power to get this, it's simply a matter of "to be able to kill it you have to be able to attack it", am I right?

No. The ability is well-conceived but it is not free. You are adding a significant ability for free by cheating. It is very difficult to talk about this game with you because both you and the players seem to want to cheat, very badly, at all times. Peter is not and cannot ever be immune to attack; that is cheating. No demon is ever free from the rule that a demon is at all times a "person" in mechanics terms except where its abilities alter that template. Being outside a host body does not sidestep that rule.

The best you can do to get this effect is for Peter to have Cloak, defined as "invisible outside a host." There is no real "disembodied" in Sorcerer, but Cloak and the Armor it already has will provide the feature you want. Given Peter's Power, that should work very well.

Having a hopping possessor demon and a Sorcerer currently at zero humanity (being hit by a taint) cause another question: if the demon possess the sorcerer, does this mean that the Sorcerer consciousness is destroyed, or the demon victories have to be more than the "untainted" humanity for that to happen?  What about NPC Sorcerers that are at zero humanity?

The tainted person will roll a single die and the demon will get a bonus die. That should have been obvious. NPC or PC makes no difference at all.

X and Y are fighting  X hit Y giving him 2 penalties (against Y's stamina of 3).  Let's suppose that the next one to attack will still be X, after both rolled again for their next action.

I'm already confused. What happened to Y's action? Did Y act first? If so, then your phrase "the next one to attack will still be X" makes no sense at all. This confusion may make it impossible to answer your next question. You may have discovered by now that trying to ask questions about ten-steps-later in a conflict is impossible.

All right, let's presume that Y had gone first in the previous round and failed to do something, with no mechanical effects, and then X hits him. So the new round begins with Y at two penalties.

Y rolls only one die for a Stamina action, AND X has a 2-dice bonus to his attack roll against B, right?

That's not automatic. It only applies if X's new action flowed from the prior action. "I hit him again" is definitely not enough to establish that flow. It is not "almost a given" – it is a defined game mechanic with very specific requirements and those requirements have to be met. Specifically the player has to say something that makes that flow/connection apparent. You are trying to be the player, a distinctive fault which arises directly from the play-experience you described so well above. This is a fault and you should stop it.

I believe that answers your question. The injured character has two penalties from being hit. The attacking character gets two bonus dice if his action flows well from the previous action. These are two different things, independent of one another. Don't be distracted by the fact that the values for each are the same.

[Moreno R.]

When a demon overcomes a Contain, the Contain is destroyed. I believe this clarifies all your problems with the two demons and the Contain.

Yes, this clarify a lot the Contain situation.

If both Igriph and Damien fail, the only way the Sorcerers have to allow them to pass is to physically destroy the barrier (the wall in this case), or they can try to change or delete the contain using Lore?

The sorcerers cannot challenge the Contain as if they were demons. They can use Lore rolls (against the Contain, i.e., the sorceress' defensive roll) to modify their attempt to destroy the door.

But why you are obsessing about this when the demon has a Power of fucking 13, I do not understand. If its Stamina is 12, it can rip that door apart. Why are you bothering me with this nonsense?

Because even if probably Igriph will have no trouble in breaking down the contain, there is still a noticeable chance that he will lose the roll (around 22% by my calculations, not considering possible bonus dice or penalties), and there is a 8% chance that BOTH demons will fail to break through.  Small, but still that number make me wish to be able to answer the players questions if that happen (I am the player that made a 1% chance roll to call for divine intervention in D&D, after all, ruining "the GM's story" for a while...). Being able to bring down the contain WITHOUT bringing down the wall make a really big difference in that situation (it means they can do it from the outside, where their demon still can defend them if attacked.

What I was thinking, and what I was asking, was something more on the type "with my knowledge of sorcery, I know how to remove this contain spell from this door, all I have to do is write these countering runes exactly here and here with chalk and blood" but what you say is interesting too: so a Sorcerer can, with a Lore roll against the Contain strength, tell the demon "a different way" different enough to allow it another roll to break the contain? How it works, telling that is an action? (so one action for the roll, one action to tell the demon, one action for the demon to try again to enter) and it needs to be a different attempt in the fiction ("now try closing your eyes and going backwards" ) or not?

... in the meantime, between the death of the host and the hop, no physical attack of any kind can hurt the demon (a mental attack with psychic force could, if the user is able to perceive the disembodied spirit of the demon). I don't think I need to add any new power to get this, it's simply a matter of "to be able to kill it you have to be able to attack it", am I right?

No. The ability is well-conceived but it is not free. You are adding a significant ability for free by cheating. It is very difficult to talk about this game with you because both you and the players seem to want to cheat, very badly, at all times. Peter is not and cannot ever be immune to attack; that is cheating. No demon is ever free from the rule that a demon is at all times a "person" in mechanics terms except where its abilities alter that template. Being outside a host body does not sidestep that rule.

The best you can do to get this effect is for Peter to have Cloak, defined as "invisible outside a host." There is no real "disembodied" in Sorcerer, but Cloak and the Armor it already has will provide the feature you want. Given Peter's Power, that should work very well.

Ah, but Peter already had cloak ("Peter, the assassin possessor with hop, range, cloak and perception") exactly for that reason, to avoid being seen when it enter or leaves host bodies. The fictional description of the cloak effect is "disembodied invisible spirit" more than simply "invisible" tough...

The way I imagine Peter, it can be hurt in two ways: using the host (hurting the host pass some of the hurting to Peter - but the death of the host sever this connection) or directly (but to hurt it directly, you have to be able to directly perceive Peter). To hurt it directly you have to use a form of attack able to "hit a spirit" (psychic force, or some sort of special attack - for example the demonic guns used by Damian are able to hurt it, but a normal gun would not. Igriph's scorpion tail sting could, Isabella's fist could not).

This is the sticky point: you have to be able to perceive it (making your roll against cloak) AND use a psychic or special attack to be able to hurt Peter "between hosts".  This is allowable by the rules, or if someone is able to perceive Peter at that point, is able to attack it with a normal gun too, and the Armor at most can shift the damage to the fist table?

Having a hopping possessor demon and a Sorcerer currently at zero humanity (being hit by a taint) cause another question: if the demon possess the sorcerer, does this mean that the Sorcerer consciousness is destroyed, or the demon victories have to be more than the "untainted" humanity for that to happen?  What about NPC Sorcerers that are at zero humanity?

The tainted person will roll a single die and the demon will get a bonus die. That should have been obvious. NPC or PC makes no difference at all.

This answer confuse me. Probably it's better I repeat the question using the concrete numbers.

Peter is hopping.  In the room there is Alessandro, a PC with stamina and humanity both at 2. At this moment Alessandro is under the effect of a taint from Abaddon, the other demon bound by Selene (a parasite) and his current humanity is at zero. (fictionally, he is under Abaddon's control. Not like a puppet, he still act independently, but he obey automatically any of the demon's suggestions - it's what happen to zero-humanity sorcerers here, they become in practice slaves of their demons. The effect of the taint stop when he is no longer in Abaddon's presence or at dawn, the one that come earlier)

The roll to take Alessandro as host is Peter's Power vs Alessandro's Stamina (not humanity), BUT, if the number of victories is greater than the host's humanity, the host personality dies forever.

There is no roll against humanity here (at least, not in the manual), no roll against zero dice. There is a roll against stamina (2), and... even if the roll is won with a SINGLE VICTORY, it's still greater than Alessandro current humanity (zero).  So at the end of the roll, Alessandro ha only two possible states: (1) alive and unpossessed (if he won the roll) or (2) possessed and dead.

This, if the humanity value to consider is the current one. But if, instead, we use the "untainted" value of humanity (2) to compare to the demon's victories, after the roll Alessandro has three possible states:
(1) alive and unpossessed (if he won the roll) or (2) possessed and dead, if the demon won with 3 or more victories, or (3) possessed, but Alessandro remains "as a flickering bit of consciousness barely hanging on" if the demon won the roll with 1 or 2 victories.

What is the value to consider, "current" or "untainted"?

Y rolls only one die for a Stamina action, AND X has a 2-dice bonus to his attack roll against B, right?

That's not automatic. It only applies if X's new action flowed from the prior action. "I hit him again" is definitely not enough to establish that flow. It is not "almost a given" – it is a defined game mechanic with very specific requirements and those requirements have to be met. Specifically the player has to say something that makes that flow/connection apparent. You are trying to be the player, a distinctive fault which arises directly from the play-experience you described so well above. This is a fault and you should stop it.

Let's use again a concrete example:

The player says "I hit him with my fist", we roll, the player has the higher roll, I abort my action to roll again, I lose again, the player has one victory, so automatically this give me a 2 points penalty on stamina (and will, lore, etc.), of which 1 is only for the next roll and the other is lasting.

After this, we declare actions again, and the players says "I hit him again, so I add the two victories to my roll, right?", and I answer "no, saying that you hit him again is not enough to get the roll-over victories as bonus dice. You have to say something that make that flow/connection apparent"  (I would probably say "evident")

The player asks "like what? Give me an example"

So, of these, what would be enough?

A) "I take advantage of him still reeling from my blow to hit him again"   [citing the previous action as the reason he is able to do that at all, this I think qualify, the other options are less clear]
B) "After hitting him with my right, now I swing at him with my left"   [narrating the two actions as a linear continuous narrative]
C) "I press my advantage hitting him again"  [as the first version but with less details]
D) "I say 'don't go down with a single blow, I have another one for you' and hit him again"  [simply citing the previous action in character dialogue]
E) other cases?

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Moreno,

... so a Sorcerer can, with a Lore roll against the Contain strength, tell the demon "a different way" different enough to allow it another roll to break the contain? How it works, telling that is an action? (so one action for the roll, one action to tell the demon, one action for the demon to try again to enter) and it needs to be a different attempt in the fiction ("now try closing your eyes and going backwards" ) or not?

I didn't say anything like that, not even one little bit. Forget it.

You are becoming a big pain about this stupid Contain. I keep telling you how the rules work and you keep inventing stuff I didn't say or that the rules don't say.

Ah, but Peter already had cloak ("Peter, the assassin possessor with hop, range, cloak and perception") exactly for that reason, to avoid being seen when it enter or leaves host bodies. The fictional description of the cloak effect is "disembodied invisible spirit" more than simply "invisible" tough...

That's exactly what I was talking about. Your "ah, but" makes no sense. And if you can see a difference between those two "invisiblity" phrases, then I think you must be back in infinite-spikes land.

Your description of hurting Peter is generally correct, but perhaps it will help to remember that Cloak has no effect when the demon is acting directly toward someone. That would include Peter trying to enter your body, for example. Otherwise, yes, you are dealing with a demon who is quite hard to hurt directly, which is exactly how you chose to build him.

Don't under-rate Fists damage. Enough victories means Peter might be stunned into ineffectiveness, and thus quite vulnerable to a second attack or Banishing.

Peter is hopping.  In the room there is Alessandro, a PC with stamina and humanity both at 2. At this moment Alessandro ...current humanity is at zero.

The roll to take Alessandro as host is Peter's Power vs Alessandro's Stamina (not humanity), BUT, if the number of victories is greater than the host's humanity, the host personality dies forever.

Too bad. Use the current Humanity of zero. If Peter gets into Alessandro, Alessandro is dead, or rather will be revealed to be dead when Peter eventually leaves. Sucks to be him.

Let's use again a concrete example:

The player says "I hit him with my fist", we roll, the player has the higher roll, I abort my action to roll again, I lose again, the player has one victory, so automatically this give me a 2 points penalty on stamina (and will, lore, etc.), of which 1 is only for the next roll and the other is lasting.

After this, we declare actions again, and the players says "I hit him again, so I add the two victories to my roll, right?", and I answer "no, saying that you hit him again is not enough to get the roll-over victories as bonus dice. You have to say something that make that flow/connection apparent"  (I would probably say "evident")

The player asks "like what? Give me an example"

NO! No, a thousand times no. You do not say "You have to say something that makes the flow et cetera." You say "No, I'm not feeling it," and that is the end of that discussion, do not stop, do not argue, do not let this player sit there and (i) expect free bonus dice, then (ii) whore for bonus dice, and then (iii) demand that you tell him how he can get away with it. NO!

So, of these, what would be enough?

All of them are complete bullshit. You are missing the point of the bonus dice. This is about heightening the engagement intuitively and honestly; it's not about precise phrasing.

The other night, Mark and Sarah and I ran a little Sorcerer-conflict dice exercise, and Sarah's character had aborted an action to throw herself out of the way of an attack, successfully. For the next round, she said, without any prompting or knowledge of the rollover dice rules, "OK, I turn this graceless dodge into a backwards somersault, and I come out of the roll right into the other guy's path, and I come up already hitting him." Mark and I both leaned forward, because we were imagining the action much better than we were a moment beforehand, and we had a shared sense of dynamic staging as well as an appreciation for Sarah's character's presence of mind.

With certain players, most of the time, if they even mention the bonus dice, then they're already full of shit. (Not true for everyone.) And 100% of the time, if you don't see and feel it as GM, or even better, see it around the table in general, then it didn't work.

[Moreno R.]

New questions!

1) About the "free and clear" phase...  when it begins?
Talking about the specific situation:  To breach the contain,  and the wall, Igriph will need two actions, so the characters will not see each other for a time at the beginning. It could be played in three way, thinking about it:
A) Simple oppositional roll for the first try of breaking the contain, with the other characters doing unopposed actions in preparation of the battle if they want, then everybody goes to orthogonal conflict rules to play the breaking of the wall to see if they act before or later (so I tell the players what the NPC are trying to do at this time)
B) We play ALL the rolls to break the contains and the wall (at least two, maybe more) as simple oppositional rolls, and we start to play the orthogonal conflict only when the characters really meet each other
C) We are in orthogonal conflict right from the beginning, and I tell the players what Selene and the others are trying to do in the time Igriph spend breaking contain and walls.

I am 90% sure that the right answer is (B), but I was wrong before in the interpretation of the rules so I prefer to check first.

2) At a certain point maybe Peter will try to hop on a sorcerer on the roof. If this happen does this start the orthogonal conflict right there (before rolling for possession) or does it start only if Peter start it afterwards doing some action?

My guess is that in any case the conflict at this time is only between the possible host and Peter, and the choice between oppositional or orthogonal depends on the possible host reaction: if he/she decide to try to attack Peter in some way (special attack, quick contain, quick banish, ordering by a will vs will roll, etc.) before it has a chance to possess the host, the conflict is orthogonal, if the possible host only try to resist the possession, the roll is oppositional (does the host get a +2 for total defense in this case?)

3) This is not even a question, so much as a request of confirmation on something that I noticed just now writing this post...  if the Sorcerer try to do a quick-contain on himself/herself to keep the possessor away, he/she should get the 2 dice bonus for defensive action, and IF the sorcerer roll highest, the demon can't possess him/her in any case, because it needs at least one action to breach the contain...  and if the demon is faster, the Sorcerer can still abort the contain and roll stamina to defend himself/herself. Right?

4) If the demon is faster, and the Sorcerer abort his/her action (whatever it is) to defend, does this defense have to be the stamina roll to avoid being possessed, or the Sorcerer can still try to "jump out of the way" with a stamina (or cover, if applicable) roll, and only if this second roll fail, he/she has to roll stamina to defend against possession?

5) If, after possessing someone, Peter start a orthogonal conflict on the roof, who does it include, among the enemies inside of the house? My guess is that at that time the conflict only include the people on the roof and Peter (and Selene if she wants to give an order to Peter using the link they share), not the other people still inside the house (if they don't do nothing that require a roll to determinate the correct order of the actions)

[Dragon Master]

3) This is not even a question, so much as a request of confirmation on something that I noticed just now writing this post...  if the Sorcerer try to do a quick-contain on himself/herself to keep the possessor away, he/she should get the 2 dice bonus for defensive action, and IF the sorcerer roll highest, the demon can't possess him/her in any case, because it needs at least one action to breach the contain...  and if the demon is faster, the Sorcerer can still abort the contain and roll stamina to defend himself/herself. Right?

I'm just going to comment on this one here, as it's mentioned in the book on page 85 (the first page of Chapter 5). "All of the listed rituals take anywhere from half an hour to three hours to perform correctly. A Sorcerer may attempt to speed things up [...] right there in combat, for example, but in doing so his or her relevant score is reduced to one die." So if your Sorcerer attempts to perform a contain during combat, he's only rolling one die of Lore (plus any rollover and bonus dice) for the Contain action.

[Moreno R.]

3) This is not even a question, so much as a request of confirmation on something that I noticed just now writing this post...  if the Sorcerer try to do a quick-contain on himself/herself to keep the possessor away, he/she should get the 2 dice bonus for defensive action, and IF the sorcerer roll highest, the demon can't possess him/her in any case, because it needs at least one action to breach the contain...  and if the demon is faster, the Sorcerer can still abort the contain and roll stamina to defend himself/herself. Right?

I'm just going to comment on this one here, as it's mentioned in the book on page 85 (the first page of Chapter 5). "All of the listed rituals take anywhere from half an hour to three hours to perform correctly. A Sorcerer may attempt to speed things up [...] right there in combat, for example, but in doing so his or her relevant score is reduced to one die." So if your Sorcerer attempts to perform a contain during combat, he's only rolling one die of Lore (plus any rollover and bonus dice) for the Contain action.

Yes, this is clear. "quick-contain" is short for "a contain using only one die". But still, it's a contain: no matter if the demon has POW 12 or even POW 20, it still need an action to break it.

In this case, it's important because there are other 3 characters on the roof that can act if they notice that something is happening, and some of them can hurt Peter directly when it's outside of an host body.

Apart from this... I thought a little more about that situation after i posted that questions, and now I have another doubt...

Let's review the situation. Peter is rolling its Power trying to possess the sorcerer. The sorcerer is trying to keep Peter away with a barrier (a quick-contain). The demon is rolling a lot more dice so probably it's too fast for the contain (the sorcerer would have a better chance trying to order it to go away, using his full will instead, but I have seen that the players always forgets about this. Maybe seeing the NPC sorcerer ordering THEIR demons to go away will cure this...) but let's say that the Sorcerer do it anyway, and his roll result is higher than the demon's

What happen at this point? What is the roll of the demon to break the contain?

A) It's the roll it already made (it was to enter into the Sorcerer, so it was directly opposed to the contain). This means that not only the contain was build before the demon could reach the Sorcerer, but that the demon can't break it, having already failed the roll.
B) The roll already made by the demon is not the roll to break the contain. The demon can't reach the sorcerer, though, so it abort its action. It can try to break that contain in the next round, if it wants.
C) The roll already made by the demon is not the roll to break the contain. But the demon can try to "defend" against the contain with a single die, and if it win that roll, it can use the first roll to try to possess the Sorcerer.

The option "C" consider the contain as a form of attack on the demon. But nowhere in the rules I have found mention of contains used to attack or doing damage to the demons, so I don't think it's a valid option. But I am unsure about what is the right answer between "A" and "B"... if I had to choose right now I probably would choose B.

[Dragon Master]

3) This is not even a question, so much as a request of confirmation on something that I noticed just now writing this post...  if the Sorcerer try to do a quick-contain on himself/herself to keep the possessor away, he/she should get the 2 dice bonus for defensive action, and IF the sorcerer roll highest, the demon can't possess him/her in any case, because it needs at least one action to breach the contain...  and if the demon is faster, the Sorcerer can still abort the contain and roll stamina to defend himself/herself. Right?

I'm just going to comment on this one here, as it's mentioned in the book on page 85 (the first page of Chapter 5). "All of the listed rituals take anywhere from half an hour to three hours to perform correctly. A Sorcerer may attempt to speed things up [...] right there in combat, for example, but in doing so his or her relevant score is reduced to one die." So if your Sorcerer attempts to perform a contain during combat, he's only rolling one die of Lore (plus any rollover and bonus dice) for the Contain action.

Yes, this is clear. "quick-contain" is short for "a contain using only one die". But still, it's a contain: no matter if the demon has POW 12 or even POW 20, it still need an action to break it.

In this case, it's important because there are other 3 characters on the roof that can act if they notice that something is happening, and some of them can hurt Peter directly when it's outside of an host body.

Apart from this... I thought a little more about that situation after i posted that questions, and now I have another doubt...

Let's review the situation. Peter is rolling its Power trying to possess the sorcerer. The sorcerer is trying to keep Peter away with a barrier (a quick-contain). The demon is rolling a lot more dice so probably it's too fast for the contain (the sorcerer would have a better chance trying to order it to go away, using his full will instead, but I have seen that the players always forgets about this. Maybe seeing the NPC sorcerer ordering THEIR demons to go away will cure this...) but let's say that the Sorcerer do it anyway, and his roll result is higher than the demon's

What happen at this point? What is the roll of the demon to break the contain?

A) It's the roll it already made (it was to enter into the Sorcerer, so it was directly opposed to the contain). This means that not only the contain was build before the demon could reach the Sorcerer, but that the demon can't break it, having already failed the roll.
B) The roll already made by the demon is not the roll to break the contain. The demon can't reach the sorcerer, though, so it abort its action. It can try to break that contain in the next round, if it wants.
C) The roll already made by the demon is not the roll to break the contain. But the demon can try to "defend" against the contain with a single die, and if it win that roll, it can use the first roll to try to possess the Sorcerer.

The option "C" consider the contain as a form of attack on the demon. But nowhere in the rules I have found mention of contains used to attack or doing damage to the demons, so I don't think it's a valid option. But I am unsure about what is the right answer between "A" and "B"... if I had to choose right now I probably would choose B.

The point I was aiming at was that it's unlikely, given how many dice your demons are rolling with, that the Sorcerer would be better served by a contain than simply by attempting an attack. In either case the Sorcerer can drop to full defense if he/she doesn't roll higher than the demon.

Assuming that the Contain you're talking about is the Sorcerer performing a Contain on themselves to keep Possessor Demons out (which is what it sounds like he's doing), then the Contain isn't an action against the Demon, just an action the Demon wants to prevent. You can't defend against any action that isn't against yourself.  Just like you can't go to Full Defense to prevent an attack against someone else, as was discussed on the forum last week.

I believe that Option B is the correct one above, but I'll leave it to Ron to clarify it, as he's better at seeing to the heart of confusion than I tend to be.

Though now that the issue has been raised... No, I'll create a new post for it so that we don't confuse things here.

[Moreno R.]

The point I was aiming at was that it's unlikely, given how many dice your demons are rolling with, that the Sorcerer would be better served by a contain than simply by attempting an attack.

It depends if these actions get the 2-dice bonus for total defense. My guess is that a desperate ritual hastily done just "to keep the demon away" (and not to trap it) can be called a total defense and get the bonus, making it not so penalized as an option as it would seem. But yes, if it doesn't get the bonus as a total defense, it's a very poor tactical choice.

[Ron Edwards]

1) About the "free and clear" phase...  when it begins?

(B) works very well and is your best model, as you begin to play. Be prepared for announced actions which force an earlier start to the multi-person orthogonal rolling - you never know what a player will announce that will overturn your preconceived notions about this issue.

2) At a certain point maybe Peter will try to ...

Everything you said here is correct.

if the possible host only try to resist the possession, the roll is oppositional (does the host get a +2 for total defense in this case?)

No. This is a little bit unfair, so let me clarify. The +2 for full defense applies in the context of an orthogonal conflict in which a character "switches" to pure opposition. It's not used when the only rolls at the moment are oppositional.

As I say, it's unfair- why not get the +2 when it's just you and Peter, as opposed to everyone shooting and hollering and jumping around while you resist Peter? I'm not sure I have an easy answer for this except to say, "Enjoy the free bonus when it applies," and to leave it at that.

3) This is not even a question, so much as a request of confirmation on something that I noticed just now writing this post...  if the Sorcerer try to do a quick-contain on himself/herself to keep the possessor away, he/she should get the 2 dice bonus for defensive action, and IF the sorcerer roll highest, the demon can't possess him/her in any case, because it needs at least one action to breach the contain...  and if the demon is faster, the Sorcerer can still abort the contain and roll stamina to defend himself/herself. Right?

As usual, this is many questions in one. Everything you say about the highest roll and aborting the action is correct. However, the 2-dice defense bonus does not apply. I think you are getting a little too enthusiastic about that rule. Think of it as being reserved for extreme, full, nothing-complicated, totally-defensive action. Not for plain and simple resistance of all kinds.

Your reading of the rule is bordering on everyone getting a +2 for any and all oppositional rolling, which is over-extending the rule. I might allow it in this case if the resistance to possession were occurring in the larger context of a big set of others' orthogonal actions, but perhaps it's better just to say "no" and keep your newfound enthusiasm for this mechanic to a minimum.

4) If the demon is faster, and the Sorcerer abort his/her action (whatever it is) to defend, does this defense have to be the stamina roll to avoid being possessed, or the Sorcerer can still try to "jump out of the way" with a stamina (or cover, if applicable) roll, and only if this second roll fail, he/she has to roll stamina to defend against possession?

The abortive defensive roll could only and ever apply to simply getting out of the way. It would not be the resistance roll - you're right that if it fails, then the resistance to possession has to be conducted.

5) If, after possessing someone, Peter start a orthogonal conflict on the roof, who does it include, among the enemies inside of the house? My guess is that at that time the conflict only include the people on the roof and Peter (and Selene if she wants to give an order to Peter using the link they share), not the other people still inside the house (if they don't do nothing that require a roll to determinate the correct order of the actions)

I think you answered the question. If the events concern only the people on the roof, then roll only among them; if the events concern people on the inside as well, then roll for them too. It shouldn't be hard.

Best, Ron

[Moreno R.]

Hi! We played the session this evening, this is what happened...

At the beginning, everybody on the roof did stand at a distance, looking at Igriph breaking down the door (and the wall). No one had any protection against demons (naive sorcerers, even if their descriptor says differently...)

Igriph did meet the contain barrier, that turned visible as a sort of burning wire mesh for an instant just before Igriph tore it apart. The noise of the barrier breaking alerted the people inside the house.

I asked the players what their character were doing, Antonio did stay behind, while Isabella and Damian began to follow Igriph. Below, Selene did a fast-contain to form another barrier in front of her, and Alessandro (tainted to 0 humanity and under her influence) tried to help her. Peter hopped on the roof.

Peter can sense the weakest target, the only two humans on the roof had stamina 3 (Isabella) and 1 (Antonio), so it tried to possess Antonio. I told Antonio's player about this attack and asked if he wanted to revise his declared action. Sure he did, he wanted to order the demon to stop (good, finally someone remembered that they can give orders to other sorcerer's demons...)

Antonio rolled 4 dice (will: 6 7 8 10) against Peter's 7 dice (1 3 5 5 6 6 9) and won the roll, stopping the demon in its track. He has shouted "stop" so the others noticed that something was happening (they still could not see Peter), but Igriph in that moment had brought down the wall (no roll necessary) so they decided to follow him below anyway.

Next round, seeing a 4-meter high monster breaking her wall Selene decide that the best course of action is to flee as fast as she can, Alessandro stay where he was, in the middle between the fleeing Selene and Igriph, to defend her, Igriph easily break the fast contain just created by Selene, Daimon and Isabelle enter the room and see the situation, on the roof Antonio roll again will (with the 1 die rollover bonus) vs Peter's will, and win again ordering Peter to tell him what is that it does for Selene, the demon reply is a hissing "I kill".

At this point, having everybody in conflict of interest with somebody, I make everybody declare actions and roll
Selene flee down the stairs, she is using Fast, so she rolls the demon's power, 11 dice: 2 2 3 3 4 4 7 7 8 10 10  (I am not bothering separating the bonus dice, she is doing nothing apart running. I don't give her the 2 dice bonus because she is not only defending, she is going away)
Igriph wants to attack Selene, Alessandro is in the way, so the demon attack him for now, rolling his claw special damage: 1 2 2 2 3 4 4 5 5 5 7 9 10
Daimon is running after Selene too, he is using fast too, so I decide that he has no problem going around Alessandro without slowing down.  His power is "only" 9, though... 1 1 1 3 4 5 6 7 7
Alessandro comes to his senses (he gets his humanity back) at the moment Selene goes outside the room, so the player can declare an action...  as a 4-meter high monster is about to hit him. He rolls his pitiful 2 dice stamina to jump out of the way (and I don't even give him the total defense bonus! See Ron, I am a cruel and merciless GM. Oh, well, let's be honest, I am simply a forgetful GM and the player didn't know the rules enough to ask for them...  )  1 6
Isabella knows that she has no chance to catch Selene and she try to yell to Igriph to don't hurt the guy (Alessandro, she doesn't know him but she don't want to kill anybody, not even Selene). She roll will 1 4 5 6
(to velocize the rolls with the online dice roller I had the players roll for their demons too)

Selene clearly has the best roll, so she is too fast for Damian (or anybody else), that is still running down the stair when she reach bottom. Igriph hit Alessandro with 3 victories and a total of 6 penalties for next roll and 16 lasting (he is thrown across the room like a rag doll hitting the wall with a loud sound of broken bones and a lot of splattering blood) before Isabella have the time to even start talking.

At the same moment, Antonio is trying to fast-banish Peter, that is instead trying to flee (Peter can perceive Humanity and stamina, not will. This guy is able to stop him in his track and force it to talk, so Peter is scared of him now, not knowing that the Sorcerer was just very lucky). I played this as a simple quick-banish roll, separated from the fight downstairs. Peter easily win this roll and hop away before Antonio have the chance to finish the banishment.

Next: seeing that it can't reach Selene, Damian try to shoot her (disobeying Isabella's direct orders to take her old friend alive. But Damian really prefer dead enemies to alive ones). Nobody apart them is really still in conflict, Igriph is slower, and is slowed down still by the small size or the corridor. Antonio call it back when he goes downstairs and see what happened. (and after hearing the old building rumble and tremble every time the demon smash a wall)

Selene wins this roll, too, and when Damian try to aim for her, she already disappeared in the dark street outside.

Even halved, Alessandro's lasting damage is more than enough to kill him. Isabella and Antonio call an ambulance and both stays with him. The amount of damage is so much that I am in doubt about saying that he survive, but medical help is near after all (half of the building tenants has already called the police by now) so they take him to an hospital in time.
(I don't remember to do it at the time, but at the end of the session I remember to give both Antonio and Isabella a humanity gaining roll for staying with him even if it means being caught by the police... Antonio has "cynic" as a price so he does roll 2 dice vs 3 and fail, Isabella increase humanity from 3 to 4)

The rest of the session, in less detail (I wanted to detail the big fight to check if I had made some blunder - apart from not giving Alessandro the 2 dice bonus, that I already know...):

Antonio and Isabella get released after telling a agreed-on story to the police, they will be probably interrogated again but they are not in prison

Alessandro stay in a coma for some days, with his (now) girlfriend Sara at his side. Antonio visit him sometimes to try to get informations about him - he did notice his telltale - but gets nothing from the clueless Sara.

Alessandro's demon - Slaaneesh, that was in Selene's pocket when she ran away - talk to Alessandro in his dreams, telling him that what happened to him is the proof that he is nothing without his help, but that that he will be forgiven, and the demon will help him again, if Alessandro swears that he will never try to betray it again. And that, if Alessandro want to walk again, the demon know a woman that can help him  (he is at the moment in a full-body cast: Slaneesh is melodramatic here, Alessandro will walk again like before even without magical help...  in a year or two).

Alessandro promise everything (and the player win an really difficult 3 vs 13 dice roll to convince the demon of his good faith) and the same night Selene sneak in the hospital, use Vitality on him (to do so a part of the parasite has to walk a little while inside Alessandro, entering from the mouth) returning him to full health, and then tell him what she wants in returns: he has to use the powers given to him by Slaanesh to seduce Isabella and bring her to a trap, alone.

Alessandro agrees, then goes home... and start a contain ritual for Slaneesh. It's the last straw, the demon break the binding, swearing vengeance, and teleport back to Selene.

Afterwards, Alessandro talk to Sara (that he was able to seduce only using Slaneesh's powers), and calm her doubts about his impossibly quick healing (here I think that in my haste I made a mistake, in hindsight it was a thing so impossible that there was no way that Sara could be convinced by Alessandro's explanation, no matter if he won the will roll: at most he should have been able to calm her, not to convince her that everything was ok). Then he ask her forgiveness for the way he had taken advantage of her (she has no idea about what he is saying now, she was completely fooled by Slaneesh) and that if she wants he will leave her alone, even if he love her.
I didn't think that this was a will roll at all, it was a humanity roll against not Sara, but the difficulty of explaining all that without talking of anything unnatural. He did roll humanity against 3 dice, he did win that roll too, and the scene ended with kisses, pink hearts and a decisive excess of sugar. I pulled a veil gasping "ah! gasp! Too much sugar! This is not the kind of scene I thought I would see in this game! Oh, well, I think that your kicker is resolved now, what do you think?". The player agreed, he rolled an increase in will, and will rewrite the descriptors with a new kicker (something around having a powerful demon wanting to hurt him for revenge, I think) for the next session.

I wanted to talk about this part of the session to show the use of humanity for a roll and the kicker resolution. I think that both were by-the-rules (and that was a nice "redemption" ending) but it doesn't hurt to check...

The part with Isabella and Antonio was interesting too, but less decisive: at the end of the session they did found where Selene is hiding now, and this time they will protect themselves first, before attacking....  (they are thinking about a contain large enough to keep Peter inside a city block, where Igriph can "smell" it, too...)

Talking about the PC's demons: Slaneesh has become a villain in his own right. Daimon is always "protecting" Isabella and until now has done nothing too monstrous or gruesome...  but I can't help thinking about it as the most evil demon in the entire game. It drinks Isabelle's blood, it tells her that it "loves" her, and that it will protect her. Forever. Even from her friends, family and every other human contact. For now he is doing his "good soldier" bit to defeat Selene, that is the most dangerous one (both as a rival sorceress...and as a possible "saved" grateful friend for Isabelle), but if Antonio become too friendly with Isabelle, he will be the next target...

Igriph is a happy demon. For all its power, Igriph is a simple bully, all it wants is to continue to kill and destroy (or, to be more exact, "show these weaklings who is the bigger, badder demon on the beach"), and it's very happy at the moment with his "master". The problems will rise if Antonio will ever find himself without enemies to attack, or if will try to stop Igriph from hurting someone. The most important problems with a demon that Antonio has at the moment is not with Igriph or Peter: is with the demon who helped him resurrect his son, telling him "you thought that one human sacrifice was enough? Oh, maybe I forgot to tell you that you need to do one every month, or your son will totally turn into a demon, forever..."

[Ron Edwards]

This sounds great! It seems to me that your most important concerns were well-managed, such as the Contain-based events and the transition into orthogonal rolling. I also really, really like the way you've shifted into being the "demon player" instead of "events controller."

Hooray for Antonio resisting possession! That was a crucial moment.

I am often surprised at how badly people mis-play ordering demons. You have a vicious, dangerous, lethal demon whom you've risked everything to order around, and you win the roll ... and you ask "What do you do for Selene." What? My God, man, tell it to jump off the roof. Tell it to kill Selene. Tell it to get some snow for you from Alaska. Tell it to eat its own foot.

I've seen this a lot in Sorcerer. People switch into Call of Cthulhu mode and see this moment as an opportunity to "look at the GM's notes," when they really should be ordering a fucking demon around.

In the beginning of the orthogonal contest: (1) correct, Selene does not get the defensive bonus; (2) correct, Daimon's Fast justifies unusual movement such as getting past a person in his path.

Poor Alessandro. No +2 dice bonus for you, even after Moreno started posting here with a whole bag of +2 bonuses to pass out like candy. I agree that he'd live, although if even one of the details had been different, he probably wouldn't have. Using Vitality on him is a good solid justifier to close that question for good. It really is a wonderful ability.

Your use of the timing is also perfect, especially that Selene wasn't fast enough to keep it from maiming Alessandro. Also, isolating the conversation between Peter and Antonio to its own oppositional resolution on the rooftop was also a good idea.

Selene was pretty lucky. I'm a bit surprised she didn't have more offensive power available to her, but I suppose this is her sharp lesson that her old friend is not to be pushed around.

I agree with you that you over-estimated the power of the Humanity roll. As for whether Humanity was the right score or not, I treat it as an issue of emotional sincerity. If Alessandro's point was to keep Sara ignorant and under his control, then it should be Will; if he was opening his fears and vulnerability to her scrutiny, then it should be Humanity.

Alessandro's in a lot of trouble! He has pissed off and lost his demon, and he needed that demon to keep his bargain with Selene. I do not think that Alessandro's Kicker was resolved. These are outstanding problems which remain to be dealt with which arose from his Kicker. Kickers aren't like legal statements; you don't resolve them strictly by referring to their wording. They spawn multiple problems, and sometimes one of those becomes the character's true crisis. I think Alessandro was in this situation.

However, I think you didn't violate the rules with these decisions. I'm making my points to show you how I interpret the rules, so you can compare views.

Best, Ron
edited to fix some stray text - RE

[Moreno R.]

Ops, I noticed another error just now...

When Peter attacked Antonio on the roof, and Antonio tried to stop the demon, Antonio 4 dice roll did beat the demon's 7 dice... And at that point I completely forgot that we were playing a orthogonal conflict between the two and considered these rolls as oppositional (and the demon's roll as a will roll, not a power roll).

Peter should have the choice, at that point, to try to beat Antonio's roll with a single die, or abort its action (the possession) to defend with its full will...  Only if Peter had lost with that defensive roll it would have had to follow Antonio's orders...