[Sorcerer] Deadly possession

[Moreno R.]

This is a spin-off from a recent thread of questions and clarification. Seeing that this one is not about that specific situation or campaign, and it's a totally different kind of question, I am posting it in a new thread.

From the Sorcerer manual, page 48:
Possessor demons completely supplant another being from its body, using a Power vs. Stamina roll. If the takeover is successful, the host remains as a flickering bit of consciousness barely hanging on, unless the demon gained a number of victories greater than his or her Humanity, in which case the host personality dies.

The part about the personality dying always did seem strange to me, from the first reading of the rules: why put a "sudden death" risk in resisting the possession? (if the host is willing, there is no roll, so no victories and no risk of death). This in a game where it's not easy to kill a player character with other kinds of attacks, after all.

"Sorcerer's Soul" and the recent annotations delve deeper into the concept of the possessor demon, but they don't talk about the reasons for adding this rule. And a Forge search didn't turn up anything about it

So, Ron, can you talk a little about the reasons for this addition, and how it worked in your campaigns? (did you ever have a PC killed that way?)

[Ron Edwards]

I haven't seen a player-character killed by it, but the chance has arisen.

There's no secret profound design in this case. It dates back to the very beginning of the game's design and has remained unchanged - pure history, no special reason for it being there or not being there. It's definitely harsh! It makes possession easily the most instantly damaging and dangerous act in the game.

I acknowledge that it's much less nuanced than any other way to die in the game, but I kind of like it. I thought about removing it in 2001, and I thought about annotating it with sirens and lights in 2011. However, I finally decided to let it stay as it is without calling attention to it. I didn't want to say, "One really shouldn't fuck around with possessor demons, and one really ought to keep one's Humanity nice and high." Anyway, I always thought the first thing any sorcerer should do is make a Contain out of a piece of jewelry or other constantly-worn item ...

I've seen player-characters die in this game. I'm interested to see if you are ready for that.

[Moreno R.]

Up until now, there was only one occasion where the life of a PC was really at risk: Peter's attack to Isabella. It was not a big risk, Isabella's demon was literally a quick call away and Peter had only a knife as a weapon (this saga, having as a setting Italy, is very low on guns: having a gun on you without a specific permit gets you arrested here). But if Peter had won the roll and Isabella had aborted the call or got more penalties than her stamina (3) there was a good chance that she would have been unable to call at all, and dead.
During the roll I was really hoping that she survived, but if that was not the case, I was fully prepared to let her die. "medical care" was readily available for her (her demon is fast, has a car, and she was in city zone very near an hospital) but Peter would not have left her without being really, really sure of her death.
But in this situation, Isabella's death would have been caused by her choice to meet Selene without her demon (and without any other protection), and really a lot of bad rolls.

Waiting for your answers to the other thread, I thought about what my own answers would have been, if I had to decide on my own. And I realized that rule about the host dying was giving me nothing. Non even player's paranoia (I think none of them even noticed that rule in the middle of the text, or they don't remember it). Even if Peter wanted to hop on a PC specifically to kill him, it would have been much more dramatic and satisfying if he had to make him stab himself or jump from a fifty feet high window to do so, than having a "roll stamina. Oops, you just died" situation. So I posted this question already thinking about dropping the rule, but before doing that, I wanted to know if there was anything I was missing about it, some reason I could not see.

I think I will drop that rule. The victories in the power vs stamina rolls will simply be a bonus for the demon in the eventual following will vs will roll against the sorcerer's "flickering bit of consciousness". And having to fight the possessed sorcerer will be much more dramatic if there is still a chance to save him.

[Joshua Bearden]

Anyway, I always thought the first thing any sorcerer should do is make a Contain out of a piece of jewelry or other constantly-worn item ...

In our second session, the woman playing a cop, on meeting an unbound demon in the interrogation room who asked to be bound to her in exchange for information about the murder she was investigating, very wisely offered a snap Contain into her badge so that she could continue negotiations with the demon on her own terms. 

Contain seems like such an attractive compromise both for sorcerers and demons, its a wonder the world isn't lousy with contained demons.

[Moreno R.]

Contain seems like such an attractive compromise both for sorcerers and demons, its a wonder the world isn't lousy with contained demons.

Well, if the contain was not specified during the binding (and it's not a temporary thing caused by unforeseen circumstances) it could be seen by the demon as a breach of contract, or even a betrayal ("You did sign up for a work contract where you would be paid to work for me? Ah ah, sucker, I have put you in jail and will give you nothing...")

[Joshua Bearden]

By compromise I mean as something for a Sorcerer and Demon to agree upon in lieu of binding. 

For the demon: It allows the demon to remain in reality indefinitely without being subject to its need.  This is not as good as being bound, and thus able to move about freely but it's better than auto-banishment.

For the Sorcerer: It's great way to keep a demon on-hand without having to feed it's need or cater to its desire.  It allows for the deferral of a humanity check this could be very important after a costly contact and summon.

In the game we're playing, the unbound demon approached the player asking to be bound and she offered a contain for now with the understanding that they'll discuss binding soon.  The demon is presently consenting as it believes this Sorcerer can help it get what it wants. The Sorcerer is determined to learn a little more about this mysterious demon before risking and committing to a binding.

[Ron Edwards]

Hey guys, it's not useful to debate what demons and sorcerers "would" do. There is no application of the rules or concepts outside of each individual game. It's instructive to see two different people compare their intuitive and creative views, but please remember that it's only a comparison, not a debate.

Best, Ron

[Dragon Master]

... Anyway, I always thought the first thing any sorcerer should do is make a Contain out of a piece of jewelry or other constantly-worn item ...

And now I have an image of a sorcerer with a body suit style tatoo acting as a Contain. This is why I love this system, all the bits of color like this that make perfect sense in context of the system.