[sorcerer] The demonic circuit-breaker, actions, and other questions

[Moreno R.]

I am listing some questions that remained from other threads (where they were hidden probably in my wall-of-texts posts) and some new questions.

1) Let's say that the Sorcerer is the user of a power that is always active, like for example Armor. The demon can still refuse to let the sorcerer use it (the image of the demon in the basement with the hand on the circuit-breaker is used in the manual). But this "I don't let you my power this time" is an action that has to be rolled? I mean, in a fight, the demon has to declare as action "I stop that power from working" and roll dice to see if he can stop it before the power is used (in the Armor case, beating the roll of the attacker on the Sorcerer), or is a simple "no" when the power should be used, with the demon free to do another action that round?

2) What about "making the power work again" (after denying it for a while), it's a (rolled) action or not?

3-4)The Sorcerer is attacking with a sword, using a demonic Cover of "fighter" at 8 dice. Without that cover the sorcerer has stamina 2 an doesn't know how to use a sword. During the free and clear phase the player says that the sorcerer is attacking someone with the sword:

Question 3: about player knowledge: the GM has to say to the player "the demon will deny you the use of cover" so that the player can change the action, or not? Can the GM say that the cover disappear in the middle of the attack when the action is already fixed?

Question 4: about character knowledge: The Sorcerer know when he/she can use a power or not, or if the demon want to trick the sorcerer into a dangerous action, the demon can deny it in mid-action? (for example, a sword strike: denying the cover at the moment the attack is done would give a lot of bonus dice to the target...)

Question 5: the Demon can decide this "after seeing the rolls", for example denying the cover only when the sorcerer is against a dangerous attack (a good roll), denying the dice for defense (or giving bonus dice to the character), or even if the decision is not told at that time to the player,it has to be decided in the "free and clear" phase?

Other questions, about the will-roll combat option:

Question 6: Example case: The Sorcerer has penalties higher that Stamina but lower than double Stamina. He makes a will roll to use 1 die, he rolls Will against 1 die, he win with 2 victories, and...

A) - the Sorcerer can roll 1 die for his next roll, and IF the player can tie the will roll with the action in the fiction, 2 more dice for the roll-over victories. Plus eventual other bonus dice.

B)- the Sorcerer can roll 1 die for his next roll, plus 2 dice for the roll-over victories (automatically), plus eventual other bonus dice. [I think I remember reading somewhere that this is the right answer, but I could not recall where I hsd read it to check if I remembered correctly]

C)- the Sorcerer can roll 2 dice (the number of victories) for his next roll, plus eventual other bonus dice.

D) - The Sorcerer can roll 1 die (the number of dice he was aiming for and rolled against), no matter how many victories he gets, plus
eventual other bonus dice.

Staying on the same example...

Question 7: the sorcerer didn't roll higher than his opponent, so he decide to abort the action and roll defense. He can re-use the same dice he got for the first roll, or he has to roll again his will to get other dice?

Question 8: same situation, but the Sorcerer don't abort his action and defend only with 1 die against the attack. Does he have to roll for this die, too, or he gets it "for free"?

Question 9: different case: if the Sorcerer has already acted this round, using these dice, and then he is attacked by someone, he has to roll his will to get dice to defend himself every single time?

[Ron Edwards]

1) Let's say that the Sorcerer is the user of a power that is always active, like for example Armor. The demon can still refuse to let the sorcerer use it (the image of the demon in the basement with the hand on the circuit-breaker is used in the manual). But this "I don't let you my power this time" is an action that has to be rolled? I mean, in a fight, the demon has to declare as action "I stop that power from working" and roll dice to see if he can stop it before the power is used (in the Armor case, beating the roll of the attacker on the Sorcerer), or is a simple "no" when the power should be used, with the demon free to do another action that round?

No and a thousand times no. It is 1000 times more simple. The demon can withhold the power from the sorcerer's use at any time, with no roll, with no announcement, with no impact on its actions, and with absolutely no awareness of this on the sorcerer's part. It is not an action. It does not limit the demon's ordinary activity in any way. It doesn't even have to be on the demon's turn of action. It happens absolutely independently of any and all other rules-based considerations.

2) What about "making the power work again" (after denying it for a while), it's a (rolled) action or not?

The same as above.

3-4)The Sorcerer is attacking with a sword, using a demonic Cover of "fighter" at 8 dice. Without that cover the sorcerer has stamina 2 an doesn't know how to use a sword. During the free and clear phase the player says that the sorcerer is attacking someone with the sword:

"Fighter" is not a valid Cover. Let's pretend the character has a valid Cover.

Question 3: about player knowledge: the GM has to say to the player "the demon will deny you the use of cover" so that the player can change the action, or not? Can the GM say that the cover disappear in the middle of the attack when the action is already fixed?

See above. No and nothing and not at all. The sorcerer tries to use Cover and suddenly discovers that he or she is working with crap two dice. And the only valid announced actions are those consistent with not knowing how to use a sword.

Question 4: about character knowledge: The Sorcerer know when he/she can use a power or not, or if the demon want to trick the sorcerer into a dangerous action, the demon can deny it in mid-action? (for example, a sword strike: denying the cover at the moment the attack is done would give a lot of bonus dice to the target...)

See above. No knowledge of whether the ability is available. No protection against having it yanked away from you at any time, so you can't "test" it to see if it's working. Feed your fucking demon regularly.

Question 5: the Demon can decide this "after seeing the rolls", for example denying the cover only when the sorcerer is against a dangerous attack (a good roll), denying the dice for defense (or giving bonus dice to the character), or even if the decision is not told at that time to the player,it has to be decided in the "free and clear" phase?

Not after the rolls – using the dice is only possible if the ability is available, so that would be impossible. That is, it's not like the GM has to decide or declare any such thing.

The free and clear phase has nothing to do with any of this.

Other questions, about the will-roll combat option:

Question 6: Example case: The Sorcerer has penalties higher that Stamina but lower than double Stamina. He makes a will roll to use 1 die, he rolls Will against 1 die, he win with 2 victories, and...

A) - the Sorcerer can roll 1 die for his next roll, and IF the player can tie the will roll with the action in the fiction, 2 more dice for the roll-over victories. Plus eventual other bonus dice.

B)- the Sorcerer can roll 1 die for his next roll, plus 2 dice for the roll-over victories (automatically), plus eventual other bonus dice. [I think I remember reading somewhere that this is the right answer, but I could not recall where I hsd read it to check if I remembered correctly]

C)- the Sorcerer can roll 2 dice (the number of victories) for his next roll, plus eventual other bonus dice.

D) - The Sorcerer can roll 1 die (the number of dice he was aiming for and rolled against), no matter how many victories he gets, plus eventual other bonus dice.

I hate your multiple-if questions. I would say (B) except that I don't know what you mean by "eventual," either for that item or the rest. Ask the question again without any ifs or guesses about the answer.

Staying on the same example...

Oh good.

Question 7: the sorcerer didn't roll higher than his opponent, so he decide to abort the action and roll defense. He can re-use the same dice he got for the first roll, or he has to roll again his will to get other dice?

One Will roll does the job, for good and for ever. Once it's made, it's made, the temporary penalties that applied before it are gone into the ether, and the sorcerer operates with the dice he or she legitimately has.

Therefore in this case, the action can be aborted and now you forget that the prior temporary penalties ever existed. The dice he or she received from the prior Will roll are also now irrelevant. Simply look at the sheet and current lasting penalties, if any, and proceed from there.

The only time another Will roll would be called for is, at this very moment, if the sorcerer has lasting penalties higher than Stamina but lower than double Stamina. In which case, if the player chooses, the entire process begins from scratch, with no relevance or reference to the previous one.

Question 8: same situation, but the Sorcerer don't abort his action and defend only with 1 die against the attack. Does he have to roll for this die, too, or he gets it "for free"?

For free. Why are you obsessed with one Will roll per dice roll. If the sorcerer makes that Will roll, apply the rules as written. The temporary penalties vanish and play proceeds normall, and that is all. Don't answer the question in this paragraph, it was rhetorical. When I ask a rhetorical question you are not allowed to answer it, but to reflect on why I asked it.

Question 9: different case: if the Sorcerer has already acted this round, using these dice, and then he is attacked by someone, he has to roll his will to get dice to defend himself every single time?

No. See above. The Will roll is a single-instant thing and after that is not consulted again.

[Moreno R.]

No and a thousand times no. It is 1000 times more simple. The demon can withhold the power from the sorcerer's use at any time, with no roll, with no announcement, with no impact on its actions, and with absolutely no awareness of this on the sorcerer's part. It is not an action. It does not limit the demon's ordinary activity in any way. It doesn't even have to be on the demon's turn of action. It happens absolutely independently of any and all other rules-based considerations.

OK, got it this time (I hope)

Question 3: about player knowledge: the GM has to say to the player "the demon will deny you the use of cover" so that the player can change the action, or not? Can the GM say that the cover disappear in the middle of the attack when the action is already fixed?

See above. No and nothing and not at all. The sorcerer tries to use Cover and suddenly discovers that he or she is working with crap two dice. And the only valid announced actions are those consistent with not knowing how to use a sword.

So... what happen if the announced action was not consistent with the situation? The Sorcerer lost the action or, not having rolled the dice jet, it can still be changed?

Example (using the sword attack used above)

Everybody at the table (players and GM) declare the action of their character. Player 1 (the Sorcerer) declare that he is attacking goon A with the sword.

At this time the GM says "no, you realize you don't have that ability anymore. What do you do?" allowing the player to change the declared action, or the Sorcerer, not being able to use that power has simply lost the occasion to act in that round, and can only defend himself? (or, worse, the Sorcerer is hurling himself against Goon A when he suddenly realize that he doesn't even know how to use that sword...)

Question 6: Example case: The Sorcerer has penalties higher that Stamina but lower than double Stamina. He makes a will roll to use 1 die, he rolls Will against 1 die, he win with 2 victories, and...

A) - the Sorcerer can roll 1 die for his next roll, and IF the player can tie the will roll with the action in the fiction, 2 more dice for the roll-over victories. Plus eventual other bonus dice.

B)- the Sorcerer can roll 1 die for his next roll, plus 2 dice for the roll-over victories (automatically), plus eventual other bonus dice. [I think I remember reading somewhere that this is the right answer, but I could not recall where I hsd read it to check if I remembered correctly]

C)- the Sorcerer can roll 2 dice (the number of victories) for his next roll, plus eventual other bonus dice.

D) - The Sorcerer can roll 1 die (the number of dice he was aiming for and rolled against), no matter how many victories he gets, plus eventual other bonus dice.

I hate your multiple-if questions. I would say (B) except that I don't know what you mean by "eventual," either for that item or the rest. Ask the question again without any ifs or guesses about the answer.

OK, let's assume, for simplicity's sake, that the GM doesn't assign no bonus dice or penalty for any reason in this scene, to simplify the example, that become:

Question 6-bis: Example case: The Sorcerer has penalties higher that Stamina but lower than double Stamina. He makes a will roll to use 1 die, he rolls Will against 1 die, he win with 2 victories, and...

A) - the Sorcerer can roll 1 die for his next roll, and IF the player can tie the will roll with the action in the fiction, 2 more dice for the roll-over victories.

B)- the Sorcerer can roll 1 die for his next roll, plus 2 dice for the roll-over victories (automatically).

C)- the Sorcerer can roll 2 dice (the number of victories) for his next roll.

D) - The Sorcerer can roll 1 die (the number of dice he was aiming for and rolled against), no matter how many victories he gets

One Will roll does the job, for good and for ever. Once it's made, it's made, the temporary penalties that applied before it are gone into the ether, and the sorcerer operates with the dice he or she legitimately has.

Therefore in this case, the action can be aborted and now you forget that the prior temporary penalties ever existed. The dice he or she received from the prior Will roll are also now irrelevant. Simply look at the sheet and current lasting penalties, if any, and proceed from there.

Wait... I think I am finally seeing the light about the Will roll: not having ever seen it in play (the last session, as you said, doesn't count) I didn't realize how it would interact with the one-roll penalties...

Let's see if I have got it this time, with numbers!

The sorcerer has Stamina 3, and he is being attacked by two adversaries. In the last roll of the previous round, he was hit with a knife for 2 victories, so he is at the start of the round with 2 lasting penalties and 2 penalties for the next action. He should not be able to act, but by a sheer act of will he stand up (he try a will roll, and he got a total of 3 dice to use for his next action)

Everybody roll, and the Sorcerer rolls these 3 dice, with no penalty.

No matter the result: after that roll, if he isn't wounded again, he has only the lasting penalties and so he can act (with 2 penalties) afterwards

So, let's say that the first adversary has the high roll. The Sorcerer has still his three rolled dice on the table. He can decide to try to continue that action, rolling a single die for defense, or he can decide to abort it. But if he abort the action, he doesn't re-roll these three dice, but his stamina subtracting the remaining penalties (in this case... 3 - 2 = 1 die)

He dues try to continue the action, but he is wounded again (2 victories for the first opponent, still with a knife, so 2 lasting penalty, added to the previous 2,  and 2 for next action) he goes again at a total of 6 penalties for next roll, and lose the action anyway.

Now it's the second opponent's turn. The dice he rolled are still on the table. The Sorcerer is still not helpless (he should have 7 penalties for that), so he can try to defend himself, rolling a single die, with 4 bonus dice for the second opponent added to the ones already rolled.

Now, I think I remember reading that the Sorcerer can roll will to get dice for a defense roll (it was this confused memory that made me think that a will roll was needed for every roll after the first), correct me if I am misremembering things, and in this case, the Sorcerer, instead of defending with a lousy die giving 4 dice to the opponent's attack, can try another will roll.

The will roll give the Sorcerer 2 dice, and so the opponent DOESN'T get the 4 dice bonus, his roll stays the same.

Let's say that the Sorcerer defends successfully.  At the end of the round he has still the 4 lasting penalties, so he still can't act without a will roll. To try any action in the next round, he has to try a third will roll to get dice.

(question: it's possible for the Sorcerer to add to the will roll the roll-over victories from the last roll? Or these victories are automatically lost?)

The Sorcerer fail this will roll, so he can't declare an action, and when the first opponent attack he rolls only one die for defense (giving 2 bonus dice to the opponent's attack). The first opponent hit him again with 2 victories. Now the sorcerer is at 6 standing penalties + 2 for next roll, he is helpless and can't even try a will roll.

The second opponent makes the mistake of thinking that the conflict is over and doesn't hit the sorcerer again, and they go to see what's inside the box that the Sorcerer dropped at the start of the conflict. During these few seconds the sorcerer lose the temporary penalties and return to a total of six penalties, he tries a fourth will roll, he win the roll getting 3 bonus dice, and he can use them to flee while the opponents are distracted.

Did I make any mistake here?

[Ron Edwards]

Everybody at the table (players and GM) declare the action of their character. Player 1 (the Sorcerer) declare that he is attacking goon A with the sword.

At this time the GM says "no, you realize you don't have that ability anymore. What do you do?" allowing the player to change the declared action, or the Sorcerer, not being able to use that power has simply lost the occasion to act in that round, and can only defend himself? (or, worse, the Sorcerer is hurling himself against Goon A when he suddenly realize that he doesn't even know how to use that sword...)

The latter! The latter! It's clear you really need to process this, and I think it's related to your tendency to turn the fair-and-clear phase into a never-ending rules discussion and options dissection. There is nothing about the fair-and-clear phase that lets the sorcerer know the demon is going to withhold the ability.

OK: it is possible for the demon decide to withhold the ability at that moment in fair-and-clear instead of waiting until the sorcerer is thoroughly fucked by its absence. This is a very different case from what we are discussing, and leads to much desperate role-playing. But the only way for the sorcerer to know about it at that moment is for the demon to say so, in-fiction, in-character. Your phrasing, "... the GM says, 'no, you don't have that ability anymore," is not only incorrect for this example, but profoundly un-Sorcerer play in every way.

I think you'd benefit as a Sorcerer GM from never, ever mentioning a rule at the table again. You might even consider designating another person at the table to be the sole consultant and director of rules in action, the holder of the book as it were.

Question 6-bis: Example case: The Sorcerer has penalties higher that Stamina but lower than double Stamina. He makes a will roll to use 1 die, he rolls Will against 1 die, he win with 2 victories, and...

So you know, I didn't even look at your A-B-C-D. I have realized that's what drives me crazy and wastes literally hours of time in dealing with your questions – when you guess and guess about the answers. I think this comes from your long history of dealing with game texts which force you to guess, so you think you must have to go into this schizophrenic haze of ever-less-textual speculations whenever you hit the learning curve. Please just ask me the damn question, in this case, what's quoted above and saying "what happens?"

He gets one die to use plus the two victories for a total of three dice.

I think your example is completely correct! For your question about rolling dice into a Will roll, since by definition the sorcerer is knocked-out/as-good-as before trying such a roll, there's no way a prior roll could "flow" into it. So no.

Best, Ron

[Jesse Burneko]

The latter! The latter! It's clear you really need to process this, and I think it's related to your tendency to turn the fair-and-clear phase into a never-ending rules discussion and options dissection.

Hey Ron, this is very, very interesting to me because it suggests that the "Clear" part of the Free and Clear is only about clarity of intended action, and not clarity of mechanical application and potential results.

I know I've been in games where players wanted to understand exactly what mechanics would apply under different actions.  "If you do X then you'll be doing damage with this penalty and that penalty but if you do Y you can take any victories and maybe roll them over..." and so on.  I think such players would be rather mad to commit to some action expecting certain mechanics to come into play, only to suddenly have those mechanics change on them.  It would feel a lot like GM fiat changing the rules on them.

Jesse

[Jesse Burneko]

Side Note: I think this may be where Moreno and I both get our habit of listing (A), (B), (C) options along with a question.  We're both used to doing it at the table when players want to understand what the range possible mechanics manipulations are.

Jesse

[Ron Edwards]

Explaining some mechanics once in a while is fine. But what you two do is outright crazy.

Look. Sorcerer mechanics will never screw a character as long as the player isn't simply stupid. Don't ever say "I wait to see what happens." Don't ever bat a current action or statement back at the GM without doing anything. Do whatever makes actual sense at that moment, and your character will get all the dice that's coming to them, and if you keep making sense, then even more will arrive.

If you cater to bad habits based on playing bad games, then play will be bad.