[Circle of Hands] Rules questions

[Nyhteg]

Hi Ron

A question about to approach in-the-moment oppositional magic.

Text says:

Absorb Spell, Reflect Spell, Warp Spell, and Bless/Curse may be cast either:
- toward a currently-active prolonged spell
- toward any spell in the moment of its casting

In the latter case, the caster must be acting earlier than or tied with the targeted action in the ordering sequence.
Re-do all this: in fair and clear, you see that the other guy is casting a spell, so say "vs. spell," or "vs. [color] spell" if you're a wizard; a spell is only named when it goes off, but Reflect Spell (which needs a new target) can specify at that moment.

...so that looks like a bit of legacy text and a rewrite addition I suppose..?
Could you untangle it a bit for me please?

Best,

Gethyn

[Ron Edwards]

Yes indeed. Fortunately, the corrections were all made. So the only thing that needs to be done is to delete the leftover "re-do all this" paragraph of sentence fragments.

Talking about it some more ... to target another person's spell with Absorb, Reflect, Warp, or the various paired examples, you're either acting in the same Q-moment as the other guy, or you have to bump to get there by spending 1 B. I think that's pretty much all there is to it.

Best, Ron

[John W]

Quick questions while I work up a character sheet:

1. What are the (r)s for after some spell names?  I get i,p and c, those are the duration.

2. Have anything to suggest for tracking injury and heal rate?  I'm thinking of putting a little "days since last 1BQ recovery" box on the sheet somewhere.  When days = lost B, heal 1BQ and erase the number in the box.

3a. There are no situations in which Wits or Charm will be injured, right?
3b. There are no opportunities to spend Q, W or C, right?

Thanks!
-J

[Ron Edwards]

1. Ritual. These take hours to cast.

2. The "days since" box sounds like a great idea.

3. Any score can be penalized to a one-die roll through a variety of circumstances and magical effects. See the drugs for some specific instances regarding W and C. Other than that, none I can think of. But they should have "damage" sections for that reason.

4. Correct: no spending of Q, W, or C.

[Moreno R.]

Hi Ron! Do you prefer having all the rules questions in this thread, or in separate threads?

I am using this for now, seeing that you linked this thread in an update and you are not splitting specific questions...

1st question) Page 39: "Circle knights who survived the adventure have a chance to improving their attributes. For each one, roll 2d6. If the result is higher than its current value, improve its value by 1."

So, any attribute can go to 12. But when this happen, a "vs 12" roll is always successful (even a 11 is enough for this to happen if you roll two dice). It is correct?

2nd question) Page 39: When you choose the new character, if he or she is not a wizard, you may trade out the spells as you like, maintaining points equal to Wits, always both white and black.

This bit surprised me: doesn't it make a part of the character creation (the choice of spells) meaningless, if you can choose the spell case by case when you know where you will go and to do what? (at least regarding the lesser component)

(and it makes it a little too similar to the "spell memorization" of D&D for my tastes...)

[Ron Edwards]

All rules questions here, please.

So, any attribute can go to 12. But when this happen, a "vs 12" roll is always successful (even a 11 is enough for this to happen if you roll two dice). It is correct?

I suppose. It seems wrong to keep it that way, so I'll think about it. A fix could be as simple as "maximum of 10," which is the very highest that three of the four attributes can reach in character creation anyway.

2nd question) Page 39: When you choose the new character, if he or she is not a wizard, you may trade out the spells as you like, maintaining points equal to Wits, always both white and black.

This bit surprised me: doesn't it make a part of the character creation (the choice of spells) meaningless, if you can choose the spell case by case when you know where you will go and to do what? (at least regarding the lesser component)

(and it makes it a little too similar to the "spell memorization" of D&D for my tastes...)

The players have very little idea of what they'll face prior to the adventure, so strategizing on that basis is not an issue. They do have an idea of what did or didn't work in past play, and I see no problem with strategizing on that basis. I suppose I could limit it to a single spell or a limited set of points, but I'd prefer to see whether it's a problem in play first, whether tactically or in terms of devaluing the character's initial concept.

I should point out that neither of these are rules questions, but rather design questions. I'm OK with design questions, and they should be in this thread too, but they are literally infinite in number, and discussions can go way down a rabbit hole. Let's keep them to a minimum until real play gets under way.

Best, Ron

[Vernon R]

I kind of noticed that as well, it's 2d6 + attribute to equal or beat 12 in the info dump.  So a 10 attribute is also an automatic success as long as the character isnt disadvantaged in some way.  It's possible but difficult to get a 10 in a stat in character creation, possibly even 11 but you'd have to be really good at your one thing and poor at most everything else.   

[Ron Edwards]

Well, let's take a look. A character can have 10 in an attribute at the beginning only if he or she rolled 6 and chose the precise traits that can give +3 to Q, W, or C. (the highest that B can be at the start is 9) It could hit 11 only if that person also fell into the lower half of the player-characters' ranked attribute sums, and if the player wanted to maxi-max instead of helping out either of the other two scores - which given the situation, would probably be low.

Let's see what happens if attributes were capped at 10, always. That means the +1 to 11 isn't allowed (sorry Nigel), and neither is the 2d6 improvement roll.

Is 10 an automatic success? Not if you roll 1 on a 1d6 penalized roll. Nor does the awesome ability give you competence outside your professions, nor does it confer the ability to take on groups.

Consider how Gunnar Hamundarson dies in Njal's Saga. Does Gunnar ever lose a fight, or even miss? No, but alone in the wrong place and with the wrong people near him, die he will.

I think I like that. A 10 really is a formidable thing, certainly enough to make a character legendary in his or her sphere of activity - almost but not quite game-breaking.

Another thing to consider, possibly related, is permitting only one roll for improvement after an adventure, player's choice of attribute. The attribute goes up by 1 if it succeeds, but if it fails, nothing does.

[Moreno R.]

By the other hand, a 5 or less would mean automatic failure when you roll a single d6...

This would leave a little range, between 6 and 9, for stats that would avoid these problems...

I don't know, maybe the solution is simply to say "a roll of 1 + 1 is always a failure", and if you have less than 6 and you have a disadvantage that would cost you a die you simply fail, no need to roll.  (a "when you roll a 6 on the single die you succeed" rule would have too many successes, at 2 with a single die you would have more chances than with two dice...)

[edit: ninjed by Ron, but this solution is different]

[Moreno R.]

(the highest that B can be at the start is 9)

This was probably in a previous draft, with the current rules the only trait that can raise B is "Brutal" and it raise B only by a + 1 (for an automatic 7). If the character has a sum of attributes in the lower half B can be raised to 8, but not more.

[Ron Edwards]

Nothing to do with drafts, merely a mistake. "7" is the correct number for my sentence.

[Vernon R]

Yeah I think it's something to keep in mind for playtesting.  I like the idea of badasses who are really tough to kill when they are in their element but I think there is enough limitations in the game to throw the game off balance, i.e you cant even roll to try some things if you dont have a suitable profession.  Likewise if you dont have at least a 6 in an ability you dont want to get caught in a situation where you are at a disadvantage and it gets called on. 

I think it's one of those things where you can get all bent out of shape if you start to bring in "real world consideration" like a peasant with a spear trying to charge a circle member behind a wall of spikes will have no chance to do any harm even though he's waving a dangerous long pointy stick.  If however you think of it in terms beyond looking at the single mechanic and the "realism" of the dangers of combat.  You think about the fact this is a game where we've already given our hero's plot immunity from realistic things like disease or maimings, you detail the situation fully before the combat actually breaks out and realize this battle hardened veteran is waiting from a place of safety for an untrained guy who's probably rarely grabbed a spear before and might not even be holding it properly then it can fully make sense.

[Nyhteg]

Ron, hi

Couple of questions about Spells...

1. Where a spell adds a bonus - Shimmer's d6 to defensinve Q, or Grow's bonus to B and B rolls, for instance - is that a fixed bonus decided when the spell is cast, or a new roll whenever the spell is used/tested? If a character had Shimmer active, for example, would they include an extra d6 in their rolls specifically to add to the defensive total or would they have rolled d6 once for a fixed bonus for the duration of the spell?

2. Oppositional/counter-spell situations aside, can all spells be pumped for extra effect or only when indicated in the spell description? Can, say, Store Power store additional pumped Brawn or is it limited to 2 points only? Would pumping B for the Die spell be purely for the purposes of resistance to countering or for extra damage?

3. Pure curiosity: Some characters can begin with a Tally. Is there a reason why starting characters (who will all know at two spells depending on W), don't begin with starting colour points? I don't know, d6 minus 1 in each colour, or their total spell points in each colour minus d6 or something like that?

Best,

Gethyn

[Ron Edwards]

1. Where a spell adds a bonus - Shimmer's d6 to defensinve Q, or Grow's bonus to B and B rolls, for instance - is that a fixed bonus decided when the spell is cast, or a new roll whenever the spell is used/tested?

New roll, each time it's cast.

If a character had Shimmer active, for example, would they include an extra d6 in their rolls specifically to add to the defensive total or would they have rolled d6 once for a fixed bonus for the duration of the spell?

Not so sure about that, I've been going back and forth. As written I intended it to be rolled at casting, and that value would persist through the spell's duration. However, the spread between 1 and 6 is really savage for this game. I've been considering re-roll because getting screwed by a 1 is really bad, or setting that effect and any other like it throughout the spells at 3.

Playtesting would be great.

2. Oppositional/counter-spell situations aside, can all spells be pumped for extra effect or only when indicated in the spell description? Can, say, Store Power store additional pumped Brawn or is it limited to 2 points only? Would pumping B for the Die spell be purely for the purposes of resistance to countering or for extra damage?

Pumping doesn't apply to non-oppositional situations except where indicated. Which is one of those must get into text rules features - thanks!

3. Pure curiosity: Some characters can begin with a Tally. Is there a reason why starting characters (who will all know at two spells depending on W), don't begin with starting colour points? I don't know, d6 minus 1 in each colour, or their total spell points in each colour minus d6 or something like that?

The color point system is there to bring consequences into the decisions of play, not to simulate the metaphysics of the imaginary world. Or rather, the latter exists in the fiction solely for the purpose of the former.

Best, Ron

[Moreno R.]

Hi Ron!

I was checking the differences between "Gray Magick" and Circle of Hands, and I found this in the former about the tallies:
When a character gains a [...] Tally, roll 2d6 and consult the following list

In Circle of Hands the list of tallies results remains, but the parts I quoted is missing. So I assume that now the characters can choose freely. But the items are still numbered from 2-12, and that seems to imply that they are still to be rolled... so, what is the procedure when someone gets a tally?