[Circle of Hands] Rules questions

[John W]

Oaths

1) If the character formally renounce it, does it lose the attribute point or not?

No.

What's to stop players from swearing oaths whenever they want a bonus, and then renouncing right afterwards, or at least before the end of the adventure?  I'm sure you've thought of that - what's your thinking here, about how oaths affect play?  I thought it made more sense to say that an oath, once sworn, must either be carried out or it results in the permanent loss of the attribute point. 

-J

[John W]

How commonly known are facts about monsters and creatures of Amboriyon and Rjaba?  Examples: that there's such a thing as an Amboriyon Guide; that if you kill a Guide, it comes back with its wounds streaming the Insire Throng effect; that the only way to get rid one is to kill it in or near an Rbaja zone, or with black magic.

Common knowledge?  Commonly known amongst wizards?  Knowledge unavailable at the start of play?

Thanks,
-J

[Moreno R.]

About the way to track the order at the table: there are two kind of situations for the character:
1) the character is in "his own place" in the Q progression, in the place for "characters with Q equal to this" (it's not enough to put the tokens in order, you need to be able to track ties too)
2) the character pumped B to jump to the top and at the moment is outside his own "Q slot"

The most clear way to track this that i can think of at this moment is:
A) A straight track (not a circular one) with slots numbered from 0 to the top amount of Q possible in the game. The characters in the situation (1) are all in this track, in the slot numbered as their Q.
B) A strip UNDER this track (or above, the important thing it's that it side by side, as if it was another lane in a street). It isn't divided into slots, because the posizion of character in the situation (2) is not tied to their Q at all, they are simply "before" or "after" or "in the same place" of tokens in the numbered lane.
C) A special-colored  token that simply represent "the Now", the precise instant we are playing now.

At the start of the fight, everybody put their token on the numbered track. If someone if pumped up by spells or wounded he moves the token accordingly on the numbered track.  The GM moves the "now" token down on the track, from the highest numbers to the lowest one, and when it "meet" a character token, that character gets to act.
If someone pump Brawn, his token is moved to the unnumbered strip, BEFORE the next character that would have acted, but after the last one who acted before. And stay there until (1) he pumps Brawn again - moving to another place still in the unnumbered strip, or (2) he is wounded, and return to his place in the numbered strip.

The token has two sides, and when they lose the next action they are simply turned upside down

The advantage of this system are:
1) You always see at a glance how much quickness has everybody,  apart from the pumped ones, that will not use that value until it will change anyway.
2) You move ONLY one token, the "now", if nobody pumps Brawn or it's wounded. And you could even do without that token, all you need is to remember who acted last.

And, for playing by hangout...

3) It's really simple to drawn something like this in a spreadsheet, print it as a flat image, and then add and move the tokens (the character names in this case) from a slot to another with the mouse, and simply changing their color when they lose the next action. Doing that with a circular diagram would be much more complicated.

P.S.: if you want to use a single track, no matter how long, you can simply add a not numbered slot between each couple of numbered slot, and move pumped characters here. This add a little complication because in some occasions having to move the token in a numbered slot could cause the movement of a pumped one to get the order right, but I don't think it will be a problem.

[willow]

Can the Raise Lich spell be cast usefully by a PC?  Do I get to continue playing my character as a Lich?  Or is it perhaps best used as a sacrifice: my Lich-self can go distract the Silver Dragon; while my Haunt (since I am now dead) goes and interacts usefully with people?

What happens if you roll a tally result you already have, or a physical manifestation result you already have?

Is there any restriction against having both white and black tallies/manifestations?

Does anything bad happen when you get too many tallies?  Is there such a thing?

How many tallies do NPC wizards start with?  Since they only ever cast spells of one color, is there any reason they haven't accumulated all the tallies for their color already?

Is there any compelling mechanical reason why I should not pick some cheap, easy to use 1 or 2  point spells and then cast them repeatedly and rest until I fill up my color gauge and get repeated tallies in the associated color?

Page 67 says "Wrath... is typically cast as an enchantment."  As a Circle Knight, why would I cast Wrath as an Enchantment?  Amboryion zones are bad; I just want to cast this spell to slay the horde of unwashed peasants the GM sends after my archmage.

[Moreno R.]

Hi Willow! Some of your questions were already answered (or at least I think so), I will leave the rest to Ron.

What happens if you roll a tally result you already have, or a physical manifestation result you already have?

I don't know the answer to this, but the tally results for Player Characters are chosen, not rolled, so at least for them it would be a issue only with NPCs.

Is there any restriction against having both white and black tallies/manifestations?

None by the rules, none in the Circle for the knights (that are "heretics" anyway), a lot of cultural restrictions instead outside of Rolke for not-circle Wizards, that must be aligned with white or black magic, and anybody who would show both kind of tallies would be quickly killed if discovered.

How many tallies do NPC wizards start with?

The number of Circle Knights in the Venture (the number of players in the session excluding the GM)

Is there any compelling mechanical reason why I should not pick some cheap, easy to use 1 or 2  point spells and then cast them repeatedly and rest until I fill up my color gauge and get repeated tallies in the associated color?

This is what the players almost did in my playtest, "the wyrm in the mountain", Ron talked in that thread about rules to address this.

[Moreno R.]

"A thrown spear ignore mail".

Does this mean that the entire damage pass though (no armor) or that ONLY the mail is not counted, but the helm, the shield and the gambeson are?

[Ron Edwards]

JOHN
What's to stop players from swearing oaths whenever they want a bonus, and then renouncing right afterwards, or at least before the end of the adventure?  I'm sure you've thought of that - what's your thinking here, about how oaths affect play?  I thought it made more sense to say that an oath, once sworn, must either be carried out or it results in the permanent loss of the attribute point. 

I've gone back and forth in thinking about this. My first priority is that I really want to avoid purely punitive, "I want you to play like thus-and-such"  mechanics.

I think the real question is what kind of rolls get the oath-bonus in the first place. People are used to milking this kind of thing very thoroughly, along the lines of "I got myself into this bar brawl, but since I can't rescue the princess if I'm dead, then I better get that bonus about rescuing the princess to win this brawl." Which is total donkey balls. I want oath bonuses to be really direct things. If I can manage that, then your concern drops down really far, because you then basically can't swear an oath to "get a bonus" in a generic way.

WILLOW

Can the Raise Lich spell be cast usefully by a PC?  Do I get to continue playing my character as a Lich?  Or is it perhaps best used as a sacrifice: my Lich-self can go distract the Silver Dragon; while my Haunt (since I am now dead) goes and interacts usefully with people?

The intention is for player-characters to be able to cast Raise Lich, which goes all the way back to Gray Magick. I instituted the wraith rules much more recently, so exactly how those rules interact is ... difficult to say. At present, I'm inclined to think that becoming undead removes your character from your control, which obviates the original intention of the spell.

Still, it seems sort of lame to have a spell that player-characters effectively cannot use, and it goes against the point of play which is that black/white are merely weapons, without genuine moral content. So maybe I should open it up for suggestions. The doubled self seems like an interesting if rather bent parallel to Spirit Warrior, for example.

Is there any restriction against having both white and black tallies/manifestations?

Nope! I see two paths for a Circle member – either try to stay as gray as possible, avoiding tallies, or tally up like a beast on both sides.

Does anything bad happen when you get too many tallies?  Is there such a thing?

I really want to develop the downside of tallies in terms of Rbaja and Amoriyon zones, though – the point is that near such things, having tallies becomes a liability.

How many tallies do NPC wizards start with?  Since they only ever cast spells of one color, is there any reason they haven't accumulated all the tallies for their color already?

Moreno answered the first part, so I'll address the second– that tally accumulation isn't physics. It's an in-play phenomenon that's heightened for dramatic effect. Don't try to imagine every spell a wizard has ever, ever cast and then add up the points on your fingers. Think of a tally, for a non-player-character, as being a life-changing, long-sought, spiritually transcendent event.

Is there any compelling mechanical reason why I should not pick some cheap, easy to use 1 or 2  point spells and then cast them repeatedly and rest until I fill up my color gauge and get repeated tallies in the associated color?

Discussion to follow soon, before Thursday if possible.

Page 67 says "Wrath... is typically cast as an enchantment."  As a Circle Knight, why would I cast Wrath as an Enchantment?  Amboryion zones are bad; I just want to cast this spell to slay the horde of unwashed peasants the GM sends after my archmage.

"Typically" refers to how it's done throughout the setting, not as a recommendation to players. I am discovering a lot about how this language is read in game texts, and the re-write is going to be extremely, even simplistically clear about what is a setting description and what is a recommendation or directive for play.

MORENO

A thrown spear ignore mail.

Does this mean that the entire damage pass though (no armor) or that ONLY the mail is not counted, but the helm, the shield and the gambeson are?

It means the mail only.

[Ron Edwards]

Hey John,

How commonly known are facts about monsters and creatures of Amboriyon and Rjaba?  Examples: that there's such a thing as an Amboriyon Guide; that if you kill a Guide, it comes back with its wounds streaming the Insire Throng effect; that the only way to get rid one is to kill it in or near an Rbaja zone, or with black magic.

Common knowledge?  Commonly known amongst wizards?  Knowledge unavailable at the start of play?

Very good questions. It might be best to split the information into smaller categories.

1. Beast and monster knowledge is a matter of home region and profession. If you're from the mountains of Rolke (most of Rolke), you know about the panther. If you're a farmer or outdoorsman, you also know about the local panthers if any, and how to deal with creatures of this kind, for self-defense and for defense of one's resources.

2. Magical knowledge can be broken into general setting knowledge, regional tweaks of that, profession-specific knowledge, and personal/experiential knowledge.

i) General setting knowledge is basically that Rbaja and Amboriyon exist, they are opposed, the former is horrible and blighted, and the latter is pretty nice. Wizards are most people's common reference. For areas with strong religious leanings, magic in general is considered dangerous. Or another way to put it is that most people are mildly religious, in practice straying to favor white magic instead of shunning it because it is so helpful (at the moment).

ii) Regional tweaks in both magic and religion can be inferred from the text, I think. People from Tamaryon have a better general understanding of avatars and eidolons than others; people from Spurr have a better general understanding of undead and demons; people from Rolke are at least aware that "gray" magic can be practiced, whether they like or hate the idea.

iii) Profession-specific knowledge applies most obviously to priests and scholars, both of whom understand the long-term implications of both kinds of magic. How a person chooses to act on that knowledge is definitely an individual decision.

iv) People who are dealing directly with the two forms of magic (components 6 and 7) have definite understanding and opinion, but how well-informed they are, or how sensible the opinions may be, varies greatly.

[John W]

Ron, congratz on your 1000th post.  ;-)

Thanks, that makes sense.  I can use it as a guideline... and I can see how I'm going to have to modify one of my adventures to align with this.

-J

[Moreno R.]

What about other people's spells? If a PC hear a spell being cast, can he identity the spell before the casting is finished? Does he need to make a roll? What if the PC is a wizard?

[Nyhteg]

How many tallies do NPC wizards start with?

The number of Circle Knights in the Venture (the number of players in the session excluding the GM)

Can you tell me where this comes from? I can't for the life of me find anything about it in the play test rulebook.
Is it from a conversation here or am I going rules-blind? :)

G

[Moreno R.]

How many tallies do NPC wizards start with?

The number of Circle Knights in the Venture (the number of players in the session excluding the GM)

Can you tell me where this comes from? I can't for the life of me find anything about it in the play test rulebook.
Is it from a conversation here or am I going rules-blind? :)

Page 32, just under the bulleted list:
If the people in the preparation include a wizard, then he or she has tallies equal to the number of knights in the adventure (see Magic).

[Nyhteg]

Well goodness me, there it is. :)
Thanks, Moreno. Missed that completely.

G

[Ron Edwards]

... If a PC hear a spell being cast, can he identity the spell before the casting is finished? Does he need to make a roll? What if the PC is a wizard?

Anyone can perceive the color of the spell due to the actions involved (black smoke, et cetera).

If a wizard is present when another spell is being cast, he or she absolutely and instantly knows what spell it is. No roll is required, nor is this based only on normal senses.

Another character is limited by normal senses, but if sight or hearing permits, then the character can recognize any spell being cast which he or she knows. Arguably, if the character has seen this spell in action before, he or she can recognize it too.

[Ron Edwards]

My fix for the gentry, Wits, and professions issue: that you don't have to pick professions maximally for your Wits. You could have Wits 9 or 10, giving you room for three professions, but if you wanted the character to be non-wizard gentry, that's OK - just take Martial (high) by itself and no more professions, and there you are.