[D&D 4E sort of] Stocking dungeons and pink slime fantasy

[glandis]

I think what I have to say is ... yes, basically. Yes, I want to see what Ron and James are discussing continue (here, in future threads with them and/or others - whatever, just continue). Yes, I think it's good that Frank reminds us that even Feist can inspire (I might draw the line at the Iron Tower - why did you remind me that that exists, Ron? WHY?).

Historical thought - I gamed with a guy in the 90's who used to ask fantasy fans of possibly-a-bit-younger (than us roughly Ron-contemporaries) vintage "did you ever actually see, personally, a 'Frodo Lives!' graffiti?" I found it really odd back then, but in the context of this discussion - maybe a more interesting question than I thought at the time. (Aside: take a look at this 70's ad. Am I crazy, or is there some kind of weird marriage of "Kilroy was here" and "Frodo Lives!" going on?)

I think Steven Erickson and Ian Esselmont pose an interesting case in multi-iterations of the actual RPGing/fiction writing (heavy world-building sub-variety) dance. My Malazan-reading is not yet complete, my personal opinion not yet fully formed (though "mixed" will be part of it - I've been both moved and disappointed so far), but - as a case/example, I'm pretty confident it/they would be fascinating to examine.

And I'd highlight "it's probably an emergent thing which then fed back onto the circumstances of its making" from Ron. Examining the details and complexities of that in, say, the context of D&D, seems valuable to me.  That (plus historic-political context-stuff) is what's interesting to me here: [D&D4e sort of] IS D&D, and it ISN'T slime. Circle of Hands: it IS an RPG/fiction-iteration descendant, and (presumptively) also ISN'T slime. How's that work? Because I'd like to do it, too.

- fixed some format problems - RE

[Ron Edwards]

Iron Tower survivor support group, forming now. For those who haven't read this ... thing, I am torn between urging you to run screaming into the night away from it, always, or urging you to read it so that you shall suffer as we do suffer, snurk snurk.

As you probably know and may be skating past other readers, the "Frodo Lives" graffiti reference comes from that same introduction to the official Ballantine version, written by ... well, I'm sorry to say I called Peter S. Beagle an asshole, but in this case, he's not making much sense - and is desperately trying to rehabilitate the work for its elegiac pastoralism and dissociate it from anything resembling young people, even as he actually echoes their frustration with technocratic Progress. (Much of this can be read in light of Theodore Roszak's The Making of a Counter-Culture, a tragically hopeful anthem, along with Gary Snyder's slightly later Turtle Island. /hippie)

On the other hand, I did in fact witness much, much appropriation of Middle Earth into the counterculture and into 70s pop culture in general. The posters based on the Ballantine covers were everywhere, and that's the edition I read in my elementary school library, even though the ones I received for my birthday were the second-release Ballantines with the Tolkien covers. Gotta say, those bootleg Ace covers were pretty awesome; the only one I actually saw back then was The Two Towers.

And "Kilroy was here" was everywhere, everywhere. I never did learn its counter-cultural or anti-war significance, but it seemed to have a lot of that going on. Something to look up.

So, Gordon, when you talk about Erickson and Esselmont, what the fuck is that about that sure seems interesting, can you provide a link?

adding this in: found the poster! Quite a knockout isn't it ... not too hard to imagine Deep Purple tripping their brains out on their namesake with that on the wall to look at, and then putting out their first two albums, Shades of Deep Purple and The Book of Taliesyn, both in 1968.

[Frank T]

You know, come to think of it, Dragonlance wasn't actually the first genre fantasy I read in my pre-teens. That would have been the Enwor saga, by Wolfgang Hohlbein, who went on to become a peculiar German phenomenon with more than 200 different titles published. But Enwor was among his early work, the most relevant books 1-5 published in 1983-1984, so in a very relevant time frame to this discussion. The writing clearly targeted an audience of adolescent boys, so it is hard to take for adult readers, but the content was very much what the OSR guys call Gonzo today. There was no Tolkien/D&D rip-off in that one, its inspirations were Howard, Smith, Burroughs, and Lovecraft, among other things. The protagonist was a Ninja/Ronin type of guy and also The Chosen One (tm), the world was something of a post-apocalyptic Sword & Planet setting really, with strong elements of Lovecraftian horror thrown in.

Huge and incredibly strong reptialian tribe warriors with two hearts riding pterodactyls. Seem like thugs first, turn out noble savages. Powerful witch-women riding "dragons" (actually more like dinosaurs, though) and using blast weapon relics from a distant past. Hive-mind swamp people with the ability to imitate a human form of their chosing (doppelganger style). Ruins, relics and horrors of the "starborn" conquerors. Enwor was actually pretty popular in Germany at the time, but the rest of the shelves were soon dominated by translations of, well, you know.

[glandis]

On Erikson/Esselmont/Malazan:

As far as I know, this wikipedia entry covers it - Erikson and Esselmont did RPGing together, thought they'd make a screenplay, eventually wrote novels (separately, not collaborating on the novels, though they'd obviously collaborated on the root RPG-play). Some years back, I got through the first 4ish Erickson Malazan novels and was impressed, sometimes very - I don't remember how I found the books, but I even ordered the UK editions so I didn't have to wait on the US publishers. I bogged down in the 5th or 6th book - as wikipedia says, these are long books, wide cast of characters, and I got tired of meeting yet ANOTHER new set of people to care about. And, after George RR Martin, I was in a "read no series unless it's DONE" mode. But it is done now, so I'm getting back to it. So far, Erikson has held up to memory - not perfect (anything that big has some bloat to it in my current opinion), but he delivers insightful gut-punches with skill and strength. Esselmont ... first time reading his stuff, I've read less, and was less impressed, but I'll give him another few tries.

In this context, what I think is interesting is that it seems their path leads most strongly through Donaldson, roleplaying, and Glen Cook, rather than  - well, all the other combos of Tolkien/Howard/roleplaying, Feist/roleplaying/Martin, or whatever. And the partnership/shared creation of roleplaying that apparently got them started on their world-creation - I've read a few interviews about how they sorta split-up ownership of the various pieces, how they continued to collaborate once Erikson (and then Esselmont) started publishing. I think the overall result of that is ... probably unknowable in particular, but perceptively positive in general. E.g., when Esselmont-"owned" influence shows up in Erikson-plots, it really feels like "outsiders" - maybe because, even to Erikson, they sorta are.

Anyway, I've not seen much Foregeish/indieish/RPGer discussion or reference to Erikson/Esselmont, which seemed a bit surprising given the publicly acknowledged RPG birth of their work. And I *think* that (at least for Erikson) whatever flaws the work has are NOT pink slime related.

[glandis]

Oh my.

Much better link: Erikson on Malazan and RPGs.

Quote "On one level, if you ask what was the effect RPGs had on my fantasy novels, I could answer: they showed us the face of the enemy. But there's more to this ..."

Not sure if I've actually read this before or just distilled that attitude from other interviews and the fiction itself, but - that link lays out why Erikson came up for me in this context.

[glandis]

I'm feeling bad for possibly derailing the thread, and hope James and/or Ron will yank it back if that is what's needed, but I can't resist one more quote (I found it on wikipedia on Malazan) "In my youth, I sidestepped Tolkien entirely, finding my inspiration and pleasure in the genre through Howard, Burroughs, and Leiber. And as with many of my fellow epic fantasy writers, our first experience of the Tolkien tropes of epic fantasy came not from books, but from Dungeons & Dragons roleplaying games ... As my own gaming experience advanced, it was not long before I abandoned those tropes. ... Accordingly, my influences in terms of fiction are post-Tolkien, and they came from conscious responses to Tolkien (Donaldson's Thomas Covenant series) and unconscious responses to Tolkien (Cook's Dread Empire and Black Company series)."

[Frank T]

Thanks for that second link. So he really turned his RPG campaign into a series of novels. That explains a lot. Specifically, I felt that the world, the themes, the backdrop were pretty strong, but the characters were pretty static (though some of them quite cool), and the plot didn't really seem all that, I dunno, it just didn't get me. I stopped reading after the first book. There was some serious potential to it, though.

[glandis]

Frank (and anyone, so I figure it's worth posting),

Gardens of the Moon is just barely-slightly-enough different (because it was written some years before, and/or the influence of the screenplay-attempt, and/or - who knows?) that I'd say reading Deadhouse Gates is worth your time in forming an opinion about reading the series. I found it had a considerably stronger plot, though it leaves some threads dangling for later books. So if that annoys you, maybe don't bother.

[Vernon R]

I've heard before that the Malazan books improved after Gardens of the Moon but have never been able to bring myself to go back to it.  I found that first book just horrid and while they moved away from the fantasy quest gaming tropes the ones that showed up in Gardens of the Moon were just as bad.  Characters seemingly defined by their abilities and nothing more, no real motivations for what they did and they seemed to jump from one big bad evil foe to the next really cool evil big baddy without ever resolving anything.  It really felt like the story was stuck in a loop of telling the same thing over and over again with just the names and places changed.  It really did feel like a couple of the long running Gurps campaigns I was in.

Of course that was long ago and my memory may not be that great or it just might not be my cup of tea but did it ever get past that feel like it was just a constant excuse to introduce a new setting element or possibly a character that I could almost see the point builds for?

[glandis]

Vernon,

Let's see if I can answer (or at least address) that and actually stay on-subject for the thread and the forum. I mean, directly - read book two and form your own opinion; I think after Deadhouse Gates you'll know if the series is worth it for you (though there are a few big/key reveals in Memories of Ice - sigh, not sure what to say). But in general, it's good to remember "pink slimeiness" is only one factor that goes into either the general quality or the personal appeal of a work. And "RPG" can have influence (negative or positive) that's got nothing to do with pink slime. Being very presumptive, it looks like Erikson/Esselmonts' RPG-play fits into the same box as, oh, a multi-year Talislanta game I remember very fondly, or Ron's long-term HeroQuest play. "The plot" can end up messy, frankly illogical and flat-out bad at times, but play is still compelling and stories still somehow powerfully develop.

A novel has a generally stronger need for "good" plot, and I think Erikson (more than Esselmont, to my eye) knows that. But maybe/partly from being born in that place ... the plot, the "whys" of the Malazan books are often hidden, difficult to see until you get deeper into the (frigin' huge) books/series. My personal tolerance for that varies. The whole "secret history" thing, layers-within-layers ... I mean, you'll have read thousands of pages of Malazan stuff before you even learn some key factors in the magic-powered sociopolitical clusterfuck that is at the core of world events (Burn, I'm holding you up as a poster-child). And I haven't finished the series - more may be coming.

In the feedback loop of book-RPGs-book, I think there are things I worry about from that style of story presentation (in a book/series) becoming an influence on RPGs and RPGers, but in the Malazan case, pink slime wouldn't be part of it (except in that can't-escape fashion Erikson talks about in the "Malazan Empire and Role-Playing Games" essay).

[James_Nostack]

I am really impressed with all of these replies, and I think I have a somewhat better understanding of "pink slime" now.

I'm not intending this to be used as a definition, but more like a spectrum?  If your setting elements & big deals are things like Elfs, Dwarfs, Not-Legally-Actionable-Hobbits, Goblins, Dragons, Wizardly Black Magic, Priestly White Magic, grotesqueries under the earth, all wrapped up in henotheism with the technological trappings of the late Middle Ages, to tell the story of a band of plucky yet unlikely heroes assembled by fate to defeat the Big Bad Guy, odds are really good that you're doing the "pink slime" thing. 

You don't have to be doing pink slime with those elements.  Certainly Tolkien, Alexander, and many other absolutely terrific storytellers used these elements quite spectacularly: indeed, it's their deservedly beloved use of these tropes that led to so much copying.  Poul Anderson's The Broken Sword features elves, goblins, witches, changelings, gods, and all of that stuff--and he fucking blows the doors off.  (Sooooooo much better than Three Hearts, Three Lions). 

I also think it might be possible to feature some/all of these elements in an RPG game; Pendragon is terrific for knightly adventures, for example; the Orc stock in Burning Wheel is creepy, evocative, pitiable, and deeply compelling.  I don't know the setting of Lamentations of the Flame Princess, an OSR game, but it sounds like James Raggi was at least aware of the issue and trying to snazz things up.  The real issue is working your ass off to rediscover or reveal what's so great about these elements: to reconstitute the slime into the original cow, so to speak. 

The sin, as I see it, is selling pink slime as "fantasy" (in the sense of, "evocative, eerie, imaginative fiction that tugs at the colective unconscious") rather than "derivative works" designed to profit off whatever commercial goodwill is still attached to Middle Earth, Prydain, Earthsea, etc.  There's nothing wrong with consuming derivative works, obviously, but it sucks that it's crowded out the stranger stuff like Clark Ashton Smith, Charles Saunders, and Jessica Salmonson, to name just a few. 

Obviously what's "evocative, eerie, and imaginative" is going to be a highly subjective issue!  When I was 13, I read a Dragonlance novel, The Legend of Huma by Richard A. Knaak.  In the past 25 years I have savored Ulysses, The Brothers Karamazov, The Divine Comedy, and many other fine pieces of art, but no words in any language have ever excited me as much as Legend of Huma did at that age.  I distinctly remember, two-thirds of the way through the book, putting it down and asking my mirror, "How can this possibly get better?!" and the amazing thing is, it did!

But I do think that, to the extent you as a reader, and as a gamer, recognize that pink slime fantasy exists, you owe it to yourself, and your imagination, to bust out of that to the best extent you can. 

[Callan S.]

Can't say I understand it - it sounds like it's basically status quo affirming while also self promotion within a status quo porn, moral problematic avoiding/smoothing over stuff. But unless I missed it, conversation didn't go that way.

The lord of the rings always strikes me as very melancholic. Very sad. The Ent wives are gone. The Elves are leaving. Capitalism is coming to the shire. The heroes are broken.

However, if you feel no melancholy from the story at all, it probably seems a pretty damn awesome state of affairs. It's like one of those young woman/old woman illusion images. Ie, to me it can be pink slime or emotionally problematic issue, both of them at the same time. It's just a question of which one you happen to see.

[Frank T]

Haha yeah I remember The Legend of Huma. It was one of the first books I read in English. I think I even read it twice. Did you know Richard A. Knaak now writes Warcraft novels and a certain branch of Warcraft lore nerds hates him with passion for doing it wrong? "Knaakification", they are calling it. I guess that example makes a stronger point than any abstract explanation could...

[Frank T]

In fairness to Knaak, he is a storyteller who knows the craft of his trade. The Legend of Huma is a compelling story of a knight's honor and duty and weariness and doubt, of war and lost hope, of defiance, love and sacrifice. Within the trappings of pink slime, to be sure, but it isn't just a tale of an able hero thwarting the villain's schemes. It is, as all worthwhile stories are (quoting some clever mind here but I forgot who it was), a story of the human heart in conflict with itself.

[James_Nostack]

In fairness to Knaak, he is a storyteller who knows the craft of his trade. The Legend of Huma is a compelling story of a knight's honor and duty and weariness and doubt, of war and lost hope, of defiance, love and sacrifice.

It also had a sword fight, with this evil Black Knight kinda guy, in a forest, and crazy stuff!!!  I seriously finshed that chapter, about 2/3 of the way through the novel, and thought, "This is the greatest thing ever written.  Like, why are there extra pages in this thing?  He cannot possibly top this." 

Within the trappings of pink slime, to be sure, but it isn't just a tale of an able hero thwarting the villain's schemes. It is, as all worthwhile stories are (quoting some clever mind here but I forgot who it was), a story of the human heart in conflict with itself.

If there is one thing literary scholars agree upon, it is that Yoknapatawpha County needz moar Pirate Minotaurz