[Hero Wars] Black Horse Troop and Grazer preparation

[Ron Edwards]

Following up on Glorantrivia, finally.

It's all the fault of that damned Setting and emergent stories essay. I figured it was "time to get the band back together," and posed a list of games, all of which concerned high-tension settings and a certain -- uncompromising quality concerning the imagery of play. The masses spoke and it was unanimous: Hero Wars. Which is sort of unfair considering that Glorantha pretty much wrote the book for the effect I was interested in; it was already sitting in the winner box.

My comfort zone with Glorantha is classic occupied-Sartar Heortling-centric play, right out of the original Cults of Terror and strongly leavened by the Hero Wars books. If you're a lozenge-head like me, try this one for my dream game: Lunar-centric adventures set in and around Alda-Chur and related areas; main cults in play (for player-characters too) include Irrippi Ontor, Jakaleel the Witch, Natha/Rashorana, Makabeus, and Taraltara; play involves serious metaphysical hallucinatory fuckery, up to and including inventing brand new ways to heroquest, and up to and including direct and perfect insights into major Gloranthan Secrets. I'm talking about play-events which include sex with walktapi, trading bodies among characters, and re-writing whole myths to prove philosophical points. Background reading of Schopenhauer's The World as Will and Idea is required.

But that way lies madness, in more ways than one.

More sensibly, although for no reason I can think of except that I was pretty sure I'd eventually get around to doing it before I die, I've been mildly obsessed with researching and building a library of notes about two rather isolated, static, basically conservative cultures, the Grazers and the Black Horse Troop. They've found their way to fit in and survive as themselves even in the destabilized environment of Dragon Pass, and if the original boardgame White Bear and Red Moon is any indication, they do so even when the war goes entirely nuclear, remaining minor but important local players. People in the default culture of the area, the Heortlings, really have to choose between the big sides; apparently BHT and Grazers retain some political and military autonomy. Which means they're probably totally fucked in the upcoming Hero Wars, Feathered Horse Queen or not, but never mind the future.

Which reminds me: I want to set some rules for discussing all things Glorantha at this website.

1. No one has mastered the material, intellectually and creatively. So no one, absolutely no one, is to speak to another person about it with authority, as in, "I know and you don't, let me school you." Bluntly, leave your sense of assured expertise about it at the door. That goes for everyone. 

2. Anyone, any time, for purposes of their own enjoyment of play, is totally permitted to say, "I don't use that text," or "I use that text but consider the author unreliable," and the other person has to suck it up, because we are talking about how the first person wants to play, not about some ultimate Glorantha hovering over us like a mother-ship and which must not be profaned.

3. Please do not post as if you personally represent some particular in-setting outlook, especially not in-character; post as yourself speaking in the real world, not as if you were actually a God Learner or Eurmal initiate or something like that.

All right, back to my musings. It's going to pinch a bit to drop the central focus on theistic magic, always the strongest feature in playing Glorantha stuff. At first glance, sorcery is way dry and boring - I have to review that and consider how to do it with zest, find its mythic weight in the Godtime so something equivalent to Thed could be worth invoking. Same goes for the animism, because although the shaman/spirit rules are quite flexible and colorful, I find them ultimately more shallow in terms of scope and myth unless I think about it a bit.

But the straight-up Color is rock solid awesome, and if we get all horse-y and My Little Pony (in a way --) about this, then we can have a good time. This material goes way back to the original White Bear and Red Moon game; it's seriously old-school Glorantha, and the two cultures were clearly wild-card, minor but not insignificant players in the most important conflicts of the Hero Wars.
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I'm convinced that the two cultures have reached some kind of accommodation; otherwise one or the other would have been annihilated by now. History is full of nominally isolated communities living side by side who engage in constant covert contact, some of which is economically and socially important. I'm considering "membranes" of resources, interactions, communication across those boundaries - what services, information, and currency flow between them.

Diokos (the black horse-demons) and hyal (the utterly romantic smart horses) would seem like natural enemies, until I see that they are so different that they don't trigger one another's hostility. The point applies even more so to the magical practitioners of the cultures: the Malkioni wouldn't see the Grazers' spiritism as doctrinally blasphemous, as they would for a competing doctrine, merely as more savage superstitions, and the Grazers wouldn't see the diokos as specifically evil spirits (because they're not), merely more foreign deviltry same as any other. Both sort-of horsies can fight in spirit combat and physical combat simultaneously, which is interesting regarding possible common foes, and also that if they do clash, then the advantage cancels out. Granted, the Grazers would be pretty horrified if they knew how the diokos were bred.

I love situations like this. When I talk to players about their possible characters, I stress that they can choose from concepts all across and around and through the ostensible cultural boundaries. Then in play, I don't have to throw them together in a forcible way, but rather Cross and Cross, Weave when it's not contrived or silly, and play the NPCs with brutal drives, under emotional stress.

I'm going to enjoy working on the local myths and power-hassles too. I get to re-read Jalk's Book and decide what's right and what's bosh. I get to play with clan politics and make up weird shit about Atrox and Hell.

External foes aren't a bad thing, once in a while. A dangerous psycho spirit would be a good mutual antagonist, especially if it arises from or has inserted itself into some troublesome history at the cultural membrane which no one likes to talk about. From a distance and on paper, dragonewts are profound and awesome and Zen'n shit, but if you live near some of them, they're a serious pain in the ass. It's not absurd to think that Grazers and Black Horse Troop soldiers occasionally have to team up to deal with some sort of dangerous lunacy perpetrated by these bozos. And oh, like some Makabaeus sorcerer isn't going to show up and try to steal some Black Horse spells some time. I'm surprised they haven't tried already.

My previous play of Hero Wars ranks among my most precious memories in role-playing. The feature I want to recall here is that back then, we originally planned only for a few sessions' worth of a solid little human drama in the hills of Heortland, enough to appreciate the setting without getting all epic about it or planning to go further. It began merely with a theatrical troop at the edges of their touring range, and the tensions within the Heortling community that were kicked off by this contact. As I recall, it ended up being a cross between the Fritz Leiber story "The Snow Women" and "Farewell My Concubine," with ice-daemons.

What we didn't plan was for it to turn into an epic multi-session story based on two lovers ignorant of their incest, and the fall of Whitewall. Let alone for that merely to be the first "book" of what turned out to be four or five such units of play, each of which was easily worth what other games call "campaigns," in events and conflicts and climaxes. By about halfway through, a single player-character sheet was a whole "party" all by itself. I got really good at the heroquesting rules.

Now I'm not saying I'm shooting for the same eventual outcome here, but I'm starting with the same starting intentions regarding taking the setting seriously and going for valid human drama in its politics and metaphysics. After that, who knows.

I'm still working on some Glorantha research questions too --

1. This is all technically in Beast Valley. The Grazers get not to be eaten because they are considered to be honorary horses by the centaurs. I figure the BHT gets to do the same because they are on the heights and very tough, so basically "fuck off" to Ironhoof. How does that play out? Or wait, he's just reincarnated again in 1616, so maybe all these people dwelling and eating and procreating all over the joint are a surprise to him -- when did his previous incarnation die, anyway?

2. Is there actually a shrine to Arkat in Muse Roost? The only reference is in the Avalon Hill product "Genertela: Crucible of the Hero Wars," and I tend to downplay that era of publication a bit in my appreciation of Glorantha. But if so, that is a serious game-changer and needs major consideration. It's not entirely ridiculous: Ethilrist was born in Slontos after the Gbaji Wars, possibly during the late reign of Arkat in Ralios, he fought both for and against the God Learners in Ralios for like three centuries, and he is himself one of history's most successful heroquesters prior to the Hero Wars - it's at least reasonable that he'd be into Arkati theory. But -- which Arkat? Plain old King is one thing; Stygian is another! Shoot, considering the Atroxi religion, maybe even the martyred version is appropriate. Ethilrist went to Hell before the end of the Second Age, too, so while Arkati controversies were still very much alive. My concern is that this detail would swiftly become the tail wagging the dog, detracting from the drama, scary pathos, and highly specialized magic already present in the displaced Atroxian situation.
On a related note, I am currently grieved not to own, nor ever to have read, the crucial texts included with White Bear & Red Moon, and Amazon kindly offers it at the low, low price of $279; its reprinted form as Dragon Pass in 1980 is similarly pricey. If anyone knows of some cheaper way to get one of those -- or hell, if anyone wanted to send me photocopies of the Sir Ethilrist material in there, I'd pay for every penny of the copying and mailing.

3. Going by Jalk's Book, the Grazer chieftainship is in serious disarray during the canonical let's-play time of 1621  - at least one Feathered Horse Queen never married, another married a Lunar (! Not a Grazer? What the fuck?), one of those got the tribe's warriors practically annihilated in Esrolia, and then there's some kind of evil worm that devours a Sun Chief from the inside, and stuff. When, roughly, does all this turn into a crisis for the ordinary Grazer? I might do better to dial the time of play back before that kind of drama really kicks in, maybe even before Ironhoof reincarnates so that particular issue isn't heated up yet either.

4. Before the Hero Wars drama kicks in, both Grazers and Black Horse Troop frequently hire out warbands as mercenaries, for instance throughout the past century and the occupation and subjugation of Tarsh. Their primary client seems to have been the Lunar Emperor (specifically), which may mean some of each culture have actually fought alongside one another more than once, and conceivably occasionally against one another. That seems kind of epic at least at the smaller scale of these cultures. Are there any records or accounts of such events?

5. Storm Tribes and HeroQuest contradict one another directly regarding the Feathered Horse Queen's special guards: they both say these guys are Hiia Swordsmen, but the first says they're Grazers and specifically denies vendref access to this cult, and the second says they're vendref. So --?

Anything else my fellow crazed Runies can help with? I'm already savvy with things like the Glorantha wiki and the old discussion lists, most of which are still available on-line. I have the cool maps too. But hey, a little shared enthusiasm would be helpful in itself.

Best, Ron

P.S. While drafting the above post, I was bitten by a crazed muse-spirit and produced these handouts for our first meeting, which will include character creation. Purists will see that I made some choices about how to deal with inconsistencies or complications across separate references. The players will also get my paraphrased introduction to the game, relevant and only very local maps, and photocopies of relevant material from various sourcebooks.

[Moreno R.]

Ron, can I say that I envy very much your players? I searched for almost twenty years someone who would GM a Gloranthian game for me, and I never found anybody (the only time we played in Glorantha, I had to be the GM with not even one of the players reading a single page of the material). And a Black Horse Trooper would have been one of my first choices...

At the end I stopped reading the material (even if I continued to buy it for some years), and what I did read is in storage and i didn't look at it for years. So, to catch up with the material and to better follow the thread, do you have a list of the resources that you used (and eventually what you did read but decided to not use)? Which books, articles, fanzines, modules, bosrdgames, etc?

[Eero Tuovinen]

I happened to read through that trilogy of adventure books for Hero Wars, Sartar Rising, just a couple weeks back. (The Skullpoint scenario was a stand-out, by the way - I was about halfway through it when I realized that it can't be a coincidence how familiar the technical thinking in there was.) The scenario "The Other Side of the Dragon" by David Dunham in the third book is pretty explicit about Hiia Swordsman being a Vendref cult. No idea how compelling this is against other sources, but it makes sense to me - the logic seems to be that the Queen relies on the Vendref underclass for implicit political support against the Luminous Stallion King, who presumably looms large in the minds of most Grazer warriors as an authority figure. The rule of the Feathered Horse Queens is a somewhat recent thing, and I can see how they would want to keep around a strong bodyguard unit that relies on the Queen for their position. Maybe the Queen is pro-Vendref in general, as these things go, supporting mere serf status for them instead of outright abusive slavery.

In fact no maybe about it, checking what exactly it was I read: "Occasionally the Vendref rebel, calling on distant kinfolk for aid. These rebellions are always put down. When the Feathered Horse Queen rose to power, the Vendref joined her in her struggle against the Luminous Stallion King. After years of struggle the Grazer leaders finally agreed that she would speak on behalf of the Vendref. Almost all Vendref would willingly serve her, for they see her as the only Grazer leader who understands those who work the earth. However, only one group has the chance to serve her directly - the Vendref who make up her bodyguard and worship Hiia Swordsman, a one-armed swordsman who befriended the Grazers when they first came to Dragon Pass."

I also have a question regarding the Black Horse Troop: I understand that the Black Horse Troop is an imposed overclass that rules a relatively numerous underclass of their own. What is this underclass like culturally? Are they like the Vendref, dispossessed Heortlings, or what? I almost remember reading something one way or another, but it escapes me.

A cool campaign idea, by the way. The Sorcerous worldview of the Troop is challenging to convey in a powerful manner, I for one don't even know what they think they worship; maybe they're all atheists or otherwise supremely practical. Everything I've read about them focuses on what they do with their magic, and not so much on why they do it. (This is in fact a general problem with Glorantha writing, it seems to me - nobody's really brought their philosophical A-game to anything outside the Orlanthi and theist theological context, which leaves me feeling unprepared to represent these worldviews with conviction.)

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Moreno and Eero,

I figured I'd answer or muse upon all your points in one big post, more-or-less in their order of complexity, organized or otherwise altered by whatever goes on between my ears.

My primary texts for investigating Gloranthan things begins with Cults of Terror, full stop. Then I consider all the following more or less equally: the first few Hero Wars published sourcebooks (Guide to Glorantha, Thunder Rebels, Storm Tribes), the original Hero Wars & Narrator's Guide books, the 1979 RuneQuest rules, the original Cults of Prax, Trollpak and the Haunted Ruins, and the Dorastor book. Most of those I treat as canonical, instruction if you will, allowing for narrator voices. After that, I consider King of Sartar, Griffin Mountain, the brief treatment in the Avalon Hill RuneQuest, and all Reaching Moon publications and HeroQuest material; these I treat as valuable but uncertain lore, unreliable narrators whether in-fiction or real-world, cherry-picking what I like (most of which I do).

I decided to go with the Feathered Horse Queen's guards being vendref on similar logic (and thanks for the reference; I have the book but didn't remember that). I simply can't imagine ordinary Grazers switching to divine-magic mindsets, and I very much like the criss-crossing, power-ambiguous aspects of the culture.

My take on the Black Horse Troop is that the culture isn't exactly as two-tiered as overlords and overmastered. I see it as a pretty unified culture, including a strong status shift between soldiers and everyone else. I think in order to participate formally in the culture, you have to be a lay member of the Atroxian Church, i.e., to get married, to earn a decent income or equivalent, to benefit directly in terms of shelter and care. However, genetically and culturally, they began only as a bunch of soldiers, so presumably had to integrate somewhat with available people in order to become an actual sustained community at all, through a century of generational turnover. I figure of the original survivors of the Hell journey, very few are currently alive. So at the edges and lower-status side of "noncombatant" culture, especially out of Muse Roost and into the smaller population centers, there's more of a blend with the local Heortlings, who aren't all that numerous anyway. What I'm trying to say is that here, the term "Heortling" isn't as ethnically and ideologically as distinct as it might be in, say, Jonstown; I see the Atroxian ideology and lifestyle as being actually quite effective in penetrating the locals' mindset (their outright bad-assery plays a role in this idea). So a well-regarded, solidly-established, wholly Atroxian Black Horse rider might be almost entirely derived from the local gene pool, merely raised in this culture from two generations back.

My take on the Atroxian ideology is that it's raw Puritanism, as hard-core Malkioni faithful as you can get, not a shred of atheism or abstraction at all. "He died for you and you're an ungrateful little shit who deserves to be tortured for eternity, unless maybe you feel bad enough about it." Read Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God for the kind of thing I figured you find in The Book of Betrayal and Murder, especially the chapter titled "Application." The fact that they ride demons and wield weapons blazing with hellfire only means, to them, that their righteousness is so pure and sufficient to master such forces.

Ethilrist also reminds me a little of the character Nirriti the Black in Roger Zelazny's Lord of Light, whose back-story is never explained in detail, but enough is implied or referred to for the reader to understand. He ends up being surprisingly sympathetic for a Bible-thumping necromancer. I'm happy to geek out about that with anyone who's read the book.

Best, Ron

[ndpaoletta]

Oh god what am I getting myself into.

[RosenMcStern]

Aaawww, you caught me flat-footed. I am in Italy and my Hero Wars books are in France, so I cannot really take part in the debate. I will throw in some random thoughts.

First of all, two recommendations. Have you read "Blood over Gold" and "The Middle Sea Empire"? These two are worth reading to shed light on what Black Horse County could be like. Blood over Gold is a great campaign book depicting the city of Fay Jee, where a Malkioni aristocracy rules over a theist lower class. The Malkioni local church also worships a Demon, Fay Jee, so it is as Orthodox as the Atroxic church may be. It really is a mine of good ideas for a campaign involving Malkioni lords vs. theist underlings. BTW, Ron, where did you get the idea that the Atroxic Church is orthodox? In all forms and shapes of Glorantha I ever played, anything even resembling the Horse Demons would be labeled as KRJALKI by an orthodox Malkioni, and become anathema in a matter of seconds.

The Middle Sea Empire is the philosophical background of Malkionism, in its purest form. All philosophy, no rulesy stuff. Only for the really devoted. It is guaranteed to change your viewpoints about Malkionism forever.

Oh, and my personal idea of the relationship between a Trooper and his Mount is quite similar to the relationship between Dilvish the Damned and his daemonic steed Black - Zelazny again, cool fantasy literature from the sixties. It predates WBRM and Greg must have read it. Mmmmhh.

At first glance, sorcery is way dry and boring - I have to review that and consider how to do it with zest, find its mythic weight in the Godtime so something equivalent to Thed could be worth invoking.

What makes you think so? If one representation of sorcery in Glorantha is dry and boring, you can certainly find another that is not. Again, The Middle Sea Empire is guaranteed to alter your point of view. It is just a matter of choosing the Gloranthan viewpoint that makes your game cool.

1. This is all technically in Beast Valley. The Grazers get not to be eaten because they are considered to be honorary horses by the centaurs. I figure the BHT gets to do the same because they are on the heights and very tough

Is Ironhoof supposed to be so powerful? Look at the Dragon Pass counters, they are available on Boardgamegeek. Beast Valley troops suck big time if compared to the Black Horses. In a world where gods get skinned and worn as pelts, the fact that he is labelled as "demigod" means almost nothing.

2. Is there actually a shrine to Arkat in Muse Roost?

Yes.

But -- which Arkat? Plain old King is one thing; Stygian is another! Shoot, considering the Atroxi religion, maybe even the martyred version is appropriate. Ethilrist went to Hell before the end of the Second Age, too, so while Arkati controversies were still very much alive.

Did they ever cease to be alive? In Genertela, either you ignore Arkat or you claim to know the truht about him. Amazingly, no two single "truths" about Arkat ever turned out to be the same.

Why are you assuming that only five Arkats exist? Are you treating the old picture by Simon Bray in Introduction to Glorantha as "canon"? Martyr, King, Stygian... there are myriad other Arkats in Ralios and beyond. And Ethilrist has surely met the REAL one when he went to Hell, although he surely did not tell anyone what he actually looks like. In my games, Arkat often appears to players in person, but when he does, he is always clad in full plate armour, so that they cannot tell even his species! Back in 1996, I even encouraged a player character party to found their own version of the Church of Arkat!

My concern is that this detail would swiftly become the tail wagging the dog, detracting from the drama, scary pathos, and highly specialized magic already present in the displaced Atroxian situation.

It will not. Believe me, I have done this for years: throwing Arkat into the equation is a sure way to make players delve deeper and deeper into heroquesting subtleties and make up their own version of EVERYTHING mythical. Assuming you are looking for a Story Now game, this cannot be anything but beneficial.

[Ron Edwards]

Paolo,

This is the moderator talking.

You're exhibiting precisely the Glorantha fan behavior that I'm not going to stand for at this website. Provide references, express enthusiasm, offer alternatives - all of which you did, and all of which are great - but do not lecture me about what is or isn't really the case, or is obvious, about the setting. You don't know it any better than I do, full stop. If you can handle that idea and accept that it's applied to every single person who posts here, one to one, then I'll talk to you as a fellow enthusiast and you can do the same, or if you can't, then go bitch about me at your blog.

When I ask, "Is there a shrine to Arkat at Muse Roost," you do not snottily drop in, "Yes." That's exactly what I'm talking about. The Glorantha boards are full of this and I will not tolerate it here.

What you do is offer any references that say so, acknowledge that it is in fact not obviously the case from every reference, because it is not, and then go on to what you did do, providing a reason why my game might benefit if I included the idea. Which I appreciate, and would respect if you had not preceded it with a gratuitous, unprovoked knee to the groin.

I'm not going to outline every last example of this in your post. There were about three others, each more annoying than the last as you gathered momentum.

It's too bad. I was looking forward to your input. It's up to you to decide whether you can put your Glorantha Snob hat aside in order to do it.

Best, Ron

[Ron Edwards]

Paolo sent me a polite message. I'm replying here.

PART ONE

1. This is not an argument. You are being moderated. If you're not sure why or how that happened, then you should review the website rules and in this case topic-specific rules. Specifically: your post was unacceptably patronizing.

2. It is not a matter of emotions. You have not triggered emotions or caused me to be upset.* You have behaved in a way that is not allowed. Again, this is not about me feeling in any fashion - the rule is in place because I have seen, too many times, people being shamed and excluded from internet discussions about Glorantha due to posts like yours.

3. This is not about intentions. I consider you a decent person already (that is my default assumption for anyone at the site), and I do not think you intended any malign or abusive message, to me or anyone. My moderation concerns your post's content, not your intentions. This is an absolute feature of all my moderating.

4. This is not about apologies. First, "I'm sorry you became upset," is not itself an apology. It is a veiled way to score points by saying, "My goodness, you are certainly irrational." Second, I did not request and never expect apologies from people being moderated. A police office is not interested in your apology when he gives you a citation.

5. I moderate publicly and conduct exchanges like this one publicly too. Everyone can see my standards and exactly how I respond. They can see that it is harsh. They can judge for themselves whether they think it's fair.

The underlying principle for all of the above is this: the Adept forum, like the Forge before it, operates on trust, specifically toward me as moderator. If you are participating at a website where the moderator uses his position to enforce his prejudices and emotional reactions, then the place is a toxic pit and should be avoided. Therefore, at the Adept forum, every person has to decide whether they think I'm doing that.  If they think I am, then they should indeed not participate there any more (and I'd say that was very rational of them). If they trust that I am not doing it, then they should stay.

Paolo, none of my specific points or further discussion will make any sense to you unless the above points are clear. This site is not moderated by any standards for politeness or flaming like anywhere else on the internet.

Best, Ron

* That's not true. I was annoyed. But the moderation isn't about that; see the rest of #2 above.

PART TWO

Paolo did request specific feedback. I'm restricting the following only to those items.

1. The "blog" comment was generic. It refers to my position that when a person is unable to understand my moderating or judges it to be unfair, their complaints aren't important to me and will be more satisfying to them in their chosen venue anyway.

2. The further specific points I consider unacceptably phrased were every one of your question-based replies. "What makes you think ..." "Is Ironhoof supposed to be more powerful?" "Only five?" Try reading your replies with and without these introductory questions. Without them, your input is fair and comparative. With them, it is belittling. Again, I am not talking about my emotional response, I'm talking about the clear and negative effects such phrasing brings to a discussion. This is social reality, not vague feelings.

The standout is the part about Malkioni orthodoxy. Here I'm not talking about Gloranthan canon at all. I'm talking about how you speak to another person within social norms. You have no idea what my familiarity with religious orthodoxy is. Or if you'd looked at the post with critical interest, you'd see that I was not describing what any other Malkioni church would say, but what the Atroxi say about themelves. Your same point could be made easily without any implications of poor reasoning on my part.

By contrast and for fairness' sake, I greatly appreciated your final point about the Arkat material.

Best, Ron

[Bret Gillan]

I can't help with the research but I can help with the shared enthusiasm. I decided in the last year or so to find out what all this Glorantha fuss was about and I'm enamored. I've attempted two games, one crashing because I had no idea what I was doing (I wish I'd read your "Setting and emergent stories" essay before I began it) and the other crashing because of scheduling. I'll have to give it another go as soon as I'm able.

I'm really interested in seeing where your campaign goes because I find the Black Horse Troop and the Grazers really interesting but everything I've read is all about the Heortlings.

[Moreno R.]

Hi Ron.

I am interested in the social environment of the game you are organizing. What the other players know of Glorantha? Some of them played in your old Thed campaign? Do you play regularly with them or you did organize the group specifically for this game?

My interest about this is because in my experience, the social environment is even more important than usual in these kind of [high-cost(in time/work) of buy-in] games, and Glorantha is even more hard than usual in that category. You don't have a widely known setting or premise (as Jesse had, for example, with the Leverage premise). I think I will have even more question after these, but these are to get a better sense of the social environment of the game.

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Moreno,

I'm inviting people I've played with for a long time. Julie, Tod, and Maura were the Hero Wars players with me for the game I wrote about in the Goddess of Rape essay, as well as for many, many other games for a solid decade. I've played regularly and irregularly with Tim for about seven years, and irregularly with Nathan for ... what about three years now, I think. We've never played together as exactly this set of six before, but everyone shares about as much Forge-style booth, community, and play history as you can get.

Regarding Glorantha itself, the first three people I mentioned knew little or nothing about the setting when we began the older game, but we all became at least informed if opportunistic scholars as play went along.

Let me know if that answers your questions ...

I'm not sure how much you've checked out the old HeroQuest forum (originally titled Hero Wars in 2001) at the Forge. 14 pages of occasionally good discussions, including quite a bit of Mike Holmes' ideas about the game, and some detailed notes of mine about how to deal with complicated settings. I'll compile a list of threads if I get the chance; they might not all be obvious based on thread titles.

Best, Ron

[RosenMcStern]

Hi Ron,

Considerations about rules and such have been sent privately. That said, since my decision is to stay here and comply with the rules, let me take the time to completely rephrase the points that have been remarked as "in violation".

I will not repeat the considerations I did about these subjects. I think they were clear. I will, instead, clarify which details I wanted to know about your point of view. The core of the matter is that there are statements you made that raise questions in my mind.

a) You stated that in your Glorantha you envision the Atroxic Church as "as hard-core Malkioni faithful as you can get", which I would call "Malkioni Orthodox" in my Glorantha. What are the reasons that make you express this idea? I do not have my HW rulesbook here, but I seem to remember that the Atroxic Church was cited as a case of  "Misapplied worship" ( i.e. They worship a Demon thinking it is a Saint) a game artefact that I like a lot and has been eliminated in subsequent editions of the game. Am I right or do I remember incorrectly? If I am right, do you plan to retain this detail in your version of the Atroxic Church, i.e. are the Troopers unconsciously worshipping demons while they think they are "the purest of all"?

b) You stated that sorcery seems dry and boring to you. First of all, are you speaking from a rules-mechanic point of view, or from a philosophical one? Please consider that I am currently "attuned" to the HeroQuest version of sorcery, which I played recently, and I cannot recall if there is anything particularly unpleasant/boring in how sorcery works in Hero Wars that you might be referring to - and in any case, I suppose that it is better if I ask YOU what makes it boring for you. If your statement instead implies that it is boring from a philosophical viewpoint, can you speculate about that?

c) You stated that the Grazers and the Black Horse Troopers are the ones who are supposed to be afraid of the beastmen. This summons a question mark in my head, as I have played "Malkioni invade Beast Valley and kick beastmen asses" just last friday. It sounds like "our Gloranthas vary". What are, in your Glorantha, the reasons that place Ironhoof on a higher step of the food chain and the Troopers on a lower one? Is it in some part of some book I do not have at hand and that you are willing to consider true for "your Glorantha"? Or is it just a consideration that you made because it sounded more plausible, or more fun, to you?

d) You mentioned three of the possible aspects of Arkat for the Great Temple. They sound like three of the five ones found in the boxed set of Hero Wars to me, the ones illustrated by Simon Bray. Does this mean that you are explicitly limiting your choices to that "menu" of Arkats? The Great Temple is mentioned in GCotHW, and that edition of RuneQuest dictated that each Great Temple had shrines to minor aspects of the deity in it: is it possible that the temple is dedicated to multiple aspects of Arkat? Have you considered using a "do it yourself Arkat"? Have you considered using more than one Arkat temple? If one temple to Arkat the Deceiver exists, it is surely hidden and not public....

Okay, I am now waiting for your opinion about the above points. I will not post any more ideas or suggestions taken from any games that have taken place in MY Glorantha until I have a clear and precise idea about what YOUR Glorantha says about these subjects - or whether it is still waiting for precise details about them.

Ah, and I am still curious to know if you own "Blood over Gold".

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Paolo,

My take on the Atroxi - especially their late-stage form in the early 1600s, in Black Horse County - is that they're isolated in many, many ways from their parent culture. I see them (or rather "them" as in "mine") as extremely convinced that not only were they right back in the tenth and eleventh centuries S.T., they're still right, and any deviations from more widely-perceived orthodoxy back then were simply error on others' parts, and any deviations in internal practice they've developed since then are perfectly acceptable local adjustments. "Of course grandpa would have approved. We're doing it his way, or how he would have done it if he were here now."

That's what I mean by hard-core orthodox - not very much to do with an established and powerful church ("capital-"O Orthodox, a term I did not use), but rather a self-assessment, self-justification, and in many ways, a defense mechanism to deal with their very real isolation in time and place. In other words, it's what they'd call themselves, specifically, the followers of the real and revealed word of Malkion as interpreted by the one and only saint who understands it, Atrox. They'd say, "We were and still are the only orthodox worthy of the name."

I completely agree with you about how cool misapplied worship is, but I am not yet sure whether "my" Atroxi are doing this. I'll comb the two primary Hero Wars texts for any mention. I might even leave it to discovery during play, perhaps even via the game mechanics.

For those following along at home, the Hero Wars book distinguishes among the forms of interacting with Other Side denizens, called "worship" in a generic/normal sense as follows: theistic worship is about sacrifice, animist worship is about adoration ("ecstatic" is also consistently stated), sorcerous worship is about veneration (usually of a Saint), and mystic worship is about asceticism. None of these are misapplied, but then you misapply them when you (for instance) sacrifice to a big spirit rather than to a god. The question is whether the Atroxi are venerating a Saint or .... well, a whole lot of other unpleasant possibilities.

It's also totally up in the air to me, in my Glorantha, exactly where Ethilrist himself personally stands. Faithful? Cynical? Transcended it all? Or? The possibilities are fascinating and I plan to muse over it for some time, much as I did regarding Ralzakark in my previous game.

Regarding the "dry and boring" statement about sorcery, I must hastily clarify: I'm talking about what I used to think about the sorcery before I applied myself and really outlined the mechanics and the content for myself, which I didn't have to do very much in our previous game. I think I was too much influenced by my careful reading of the Avalon Hill RuneQuest. Now I think very differently, and I tried to convey my new sense of excitement through my write-up in the handout. Specifically:

1. At first glance, the spells of wizards and sorcerers are much, much more fixed in application and in acquisition than the theistic or animist magic, and do look much more like classic D&D spells. I think they are made more fun than that as soon as what they do receives some attention, in setting terms. There isn't any theist magical action out there that simply, clearly, effectively, and reliably blows a person's head off, no more and no less. Why can you do it? Never mind what some goofus god did during a backwoods tribe's myth. You can do it because you can. Also, you the player get to make up spells during character creation and improvement, which is plain old candy-store time.

2. I love the clear history of texts and magic as revealed by the outline of the Atroxi books. You can see what Atroxi magic was like before and after the trip to Hell, for instance. For me, that kind of perspective helps me think of new spells that would fit right in. And besides, it's just so gorgeously psycho, going into a fight with your sword blessed with righteousness and enchanted with black hellfire.

3. Edge use of sorcery is way, way more flexible than I'd thought, specifically that anyone in an Order can drop to their knees in veneration and gain keyword abilities, and that anyone in a religion at all can call for a miracle. All of a sudden, that quietly faithful dude who scrapes your horse's feet can turn out to be the key to victory when your spells are overwhelmed, but his faith isn't. I almost want to make up a completely mundane Black Horse County servant or drudgery type character who simply has a heart of gold and unswerving faith.

Regarding the Grazers and Ironhoof, you might be reading me as more opinionated than I am. I'm not so stuck in my notions about exactly how much more powerful or significant he might be ... or even that he is. Perhaps any indignation or attempt at expulsion he'd lead would be doomed; my thinking is merely that he might indeed react this way anyway and put his unquestioned leadership of the Beast folk to use.

Also, I'm not working from texts so much as concepts that have gelled in my mind regarding the history of Dragon Pass. I like the idea that the Dragonkill has stuck in everyone's mind, such that Dragon Pass is still thought of as "not for humans" even if there are many of them living there now, and Beast Valley is perhaps the last bit of it where that concept carries any real weight. I also like the idea that the Beast folk might take that a little bit seriously, to the extent that if a peaceful caravan gets butchered by a couple of minotaurs, the Beast folk shrug and say, "Wrong place at the wrong time." I also like the idea that although the Black Horse Troop is hell on wheels against just about anyone, especially in conventional engagement, the Beast folk could be formidable if they were ever organized in a real guerrilla effort. As for Ironhoof, I merely figure he's a Hero for a reason and leave it at that.

The three Arkats I mentioned did come from the Hero Wars book Guide to Glorantha and from that illustration by Simon Bray. It doesn't limit me to the five-Arkat menu in any way at all. As I mentioned in my post, I have only begun to consider that

I don't have a copy of Genertela: Crucible of the Hero Wars, although I need one, and that goes double for Blood over Gold. You probably noticed in my answer to Moreno that I take a distinctly old-school approach to the texts, preferring Cults of Terror above all others, for instance. (That doesn't mean I don't apply "narrator bias" judgment when I read it; I do.)

I hope you can see that for a lot of your questions, I am either mildly ambiguous or getting ready for a more detailed look into texts I haven't read toward those ends before, or have not yet seen. Some of them may turn out to be primary for me. For example, I finally got hold of the Dorastor book about halfway through my previous game, and in retrospect, I have no idea how I managed to function without it before that.

Best, Ron

[Eero Tuovinen]

Hmm, I haven't read enough about the Black Horse Troop to have any idea of the internals of their ideology. Puritanism and religious orthodoxy in roleplaying though, that makes me think. What kind of justification does the BHT have for maintaining this type of culture? I'm sort of thinking sociology here, but also audience empathy: in my experience it's been easiest to treat puritan religion - especially violent puritanism - with human empathy when the conditions of the culture justify the thinking at least to some degree. Does the Troop have imminent external threats that are worse than a bleak and hopeless religious ideology? I mean, Solomon Kane can be viewed as a good and heroic human being only in a world where demons and subhuman cultures are actually real; in the real world he's just an insane racist.

I'm interested because ever since reading Thunder Rebels and those other early HW sourcebooks on Orlanthi culture I tend to treat Glorantha as an exercise in understanding and appreciating different cultures. (It is pretty common to view the Orlanthi-Lunar conflict as a philosophical one, that's not just a Finnish thing, right?) I'd like to see something good and noble in the BHT, too, for it to seem like an interesting gaming topic. I often phrase this by asking, what is the thing this culture is right about? Were I to play a character of this culture, what would be the big truth he would be unwilling to abandon in the face of pressure? If there's nothing like that, then the culture becomes more of an external matter rather than internal: the question then is, how do I escape this prison of a life and find acceptance among some saner people.

In comparison, I can see some appeal in the Grazers, despite them not having had large tomes written about them like the Orlanthi. They're a people displaced into the Dragon Pass, but they've made it their own. They've taken on an underclass of farmers who wield cultural tools that are, frankly, much better adapted to modern, aggressively urbanizing Glorantha. A tinge of tragedy there for everybody who understands how these sorts of slave societies tend to go. The whole Feathered Horse Queen movement proves that the Grazers have some hope as a dynamic culture, though (unlike the sad nomads of Prax, say) - a people willing to embrace new ideas like that might well be expected to adapt and develop positive ways of treating with their fellow humans. All in all it's a very masculine warrior culture (and typical such), but not to a poisonous degree.

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Eero,

That's a little different from my mindset, so I'll try two things. The first is to try to adopt yours as best I can in order to answer your question, and the second is to try to articulate where I'm coming from by contrast.

1. If we were looking for something good and noble in Black Horse County culture, in the principles-based or emblematic way you're talking about, I guess I'd pick perseverance and solidarity. I get the idea that the original emergents from the Other Side relied on one another like pretty much no one else has since I Fought We Won, and also that some kind of fellow feeling of this sort is valued there among the derived culture. It seems to me they wouldn't make a big verbal deal out of it either: "Oh, anyone could have done it, we're just ordinary soldiers here," probably sincerely. Or if we were to go with personalities, despite the fact that Ethrilrist is not yet fully known to me (and here I speak of "my" him), I get a kick out of his wonderful contrasts, and I identify with the way that he just seems to want to settle down and fucking write, for Pete's sake.

2. My take on the various cultures isn't that each displays a distinct virtue (although I do appreciate that point, on reflection), but rather that in every one, people strive to live, love, mate, maintain family and other community units, find time to relate what they do to the cosmos, and get into the same kinds of trouble with one another. Some day I'd love to play a game set entirely within the walls of Alkoth, and it wouldn't be all splatter gore horror porn, peopled with monstrous caricatures of humans, it would be so freaking normal it'd practically be boring, despite all the carcasses and chains and ghosts and ghouls and zombies. I guess the idea that the people in both cultures are worth playing in those cultures (although obviously in such a way that stresses it badly; this is the dawn of the Hero Wars after all) is my default.

Let me know if that makes sense. Another way I could put it, I suppose, is that one of the reasons we're playing at all is to answer your inquiry, and therefore by definition can't start with a real answer already in place. Yet another way, maybe, is to say that playing Hero Wars isn't about preserving or even valuing any single culture for me, but rather about (rather ruthlessly) breaking them via their inherent fault-lines, with an eye only upon the value we find among the ruins.

Best, Ron