[Sorcerer crowdfunding] Update and plans

[Moreno R.]

Ron.

Consider adding other formats (like epub already cited by Eero) to the electronic package as a stretch-goal: it's something you can pay someone to do with the text you already have, and it will pay you lots to have an already available (and already paid) epub version of Sorcerer to sell new customers in the next years.

So, until a certain amount, people at $25 gets 2 pdfs (on-sceeen and to-print), after that they get 3 (adding the epub), and maybe others too with higher levels (as you said in the last post, even a softcover copy could be added at a certain point, but consider the postal expenses for that one)

[Miskatonic]

Ron,

Let me make sure I'm getting this straight. You're getting rid of the $100 level for the book set altogether, and instead creating a stretch goal for the books, which would go to everyone who went in at the $25 level, but only if the stretch goal level was met? And some stuff has clicked with the math of this that you wouldn't be losing money on such an arrangement?

[Hans Chung-Otterson]

And now you tell me there's no demand for a PDF which someone can buy, then trot off somewhere local and print as a book? Come on. Don't listen to your gut. Your gut has shit for brains. (Also, did you see that above, the customer gets an optimized for-electronic format and the print-if-you-want format? If they don't want the latter, they can ignore it.)

I'm not telling you there's no demand. I was just offering myself as a real-life example of Eero's neophobic* person. I said I didn't want to try to convince you, but I probably ended up trying anyway. Sorry, that was less than useful.


*and oh yes, I am. I don't mind paying $25 for a worthy set of PDFs, but I get angry when I think about paper books being a luxury commodity. I'm sure I'll get over it.

[Ron Edwards]

Aargh! No!

I'm sorry, guys. Holiday events are really stressful when you and the in-laws both have lots of kids, and now I'm right in the middle of single-parenting for a few days. Also, for some reason, this site has been sluggish and defiant all day, making logging on and posting quite upsetting. Breathing deeply -- calm --

OK. First, the $100 thing remains. That is for a very, very fancy pair of books, a specialty item that is only going to be available through this crowdfunding.* Narrattiva and I are talking about some neat ideas for it; suffice to say my aesthetic is very 70s Heavy Metal, not 19th-century occult at all.

From now on, when I say "the PDFs," I'm talking about the basic product, which will have Denmark covers if/when the primary goal is met. When I talk about the stretch goal books, I'm talking about the softcover, printed versions of those PDFs, the same as you could print on your own at Kinko's. It's not the same as the fancy books.

So -- that means there are two distinct concepts at work here.

1. Bennies for contributing. That's what the $1 and the various $25 increments are, as well as the $100 fancy books.

2. Goals and stretch goals. The primary/first one is getting enough money to pay Thomas and various other people, like layout and similar. The stretch after that should be going ahead and printing up physical books myself.** Perhaps a stretch after that would be to set up various other formats for e-books, Kindle-type apps, et cetera.

Does that make more sense?

Best, Ron

* Unless I change my mind about that, which at this moment I haven't. If I do, it'll be a limited edition type thing, or perhaps some deal where I only print more if I get X number of orders. My point is that all this talk is post-crowdfunding.

** Although I'm still not going to do overseas orders for books unless I can get a printer on the same continent.

[Miskatonic]

Ah, got it.

So, I think that's a pretty smart stretch goal! I think the understanding by individual participants that the more participants are involved in the crowdfunding can result in individual participants receiving additional value for their money is a big driver in the sort of word-of-mouth marketing that makes these things successful.


Narrattiva is involved with these books? Oh my, that does sound delicious.

[Hans Chung-Otterson]

Narrattiva is involved with these books? Oh my, that does sound delicious.

Oh, yeah. I think you'll do fine. I'm looking around for what I can sell...

[Ron Edwards]

Hi,

Thanks again to everyone. I think this is finally coming together.

My next step is to get a video made, preferably with a background soundtrack reminiscent of Journey of the Sorcerer, preferably with a few items to show off, and -- well, I don't know if this is even possible, but with some testimonial clips.

Once at least starting components of this are available, then I'll set up the "draft" page at Kickstarter, just as Eero described. I didn't know that was possible, and now that I do, it's the obvious best start.

Best, Ron

[Hans Chung-Otterson]

Hey Ron,

It occurs to me you may not know this, and it could be helpful: Luke Crane currently works at Kickstarter, as the Project Specialist for Games. In his own words, "I've been hired by Kickstarter as a Project Specialist for Games. Basically, my job is to look over projects and give advice (and accept/decline them)"

I'm sure reaching out to him would be worth it.

[Christoph]

Hello Ron

Good to see that your Kickstarter is shaping up! .epub and the like for a stretch goal is a very neat idea!

Regarding a European printing (this is completely in my self-interest), could you imagine a deal with a little company like, say, Arkenstone Publishing, Narrattiva, or some of the British folk, to just manage the printing and distributing for you? Or does this sound too much like going back to three tiers? Of course, this could apply to all your games, not just Sorcerer.

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Christoph,

I would dearly love to see my books printed and shipped more locally, world-wide. My conversations with Arkenstone about this go back to 2006, and with Narrattiva, back to 2010.

At this point, my answer is "yes," but after I get out of the tar-pit I'm currently in. It's pretty hard to convey just how many things I'm grappling with at 95% percent done or negotiated, but all of which have hit some kind of problem and successfully get in one another's way. It's like a big clogged drain. When I clear that, then I can deal with where all the pipes go.

Eero, Moreno, Claudia, et cetera, please don't continue that conversation here. It's something we need to talk about over email ... later.

Best, Ron

[greyorm]

Points to consider: totally as anecdotal evidence, put pictures and graphics on your KS page. Heck, even if it's just a stack of books next to a candle with some character sheets and glass beads. Fancy graphical thingies. An illustration or two from the books.

And, more importantly, pictures of the final product, even if they are just mock-ups. I have a great deal of difficulty putting money out to projects that are just text and don't include images of what it is I'm funding/purchasing. This goes double for stretch goals: shot glass? Put a picture(s) of it. T-shirt: show the t-shirt, or the image on the shirt.

I've seen projects that don't do this and, IME, they have a terrible time with funding and especially with getting enough for stretch goals.

Some other funding boost ideas/tier rewards:

• Sorcerer dice -- regular dice, whatever size, with numbers/pips and a Sorcerer-ish icon on the high number (the 'S' from the font you use in Sorcerer, a bloody pentagram in keeping with the heavy metal vibe, a flaming eye, a mystical circle of some kind). Any amount, from a couple, to a block of five or ten. A number of card deck projects have done this and I always drop a few extra dollars for the dice, even though they have nothing to do with the project.


• Sorcerer-ish tokens -- for use in play, tracking penalties or injuries or whatever. I don't know if etched glass beads are possible, or fancy little clips for on the side of character sheets that look like little demon faces, or small brass coins with occult sigils or the outlines of demons on them.


• Art prints -- prints of the art from the book (or especially the covers, which you are and want to hype) at whatever size. Again, a number of card deck projects have done this and it seems a popular way to boost total sales.


• Mini supplements of your design, like Demon Cops -- receive PDFs of those as a reward tier. OR I know you have a few of these in various stages of completeness/usability, too, finishing them up or rounding them out into full minis could be a stretch goal (good way to get paid to work on them).


• Mini supplements that don't require you to do any writing -- as stretch goals; see if you can get some "name" writers on board to write new mini-supplements for backers. Either as "only available to funders during the KS" or also available afterwards, but for slightly more.


• A book of scenarios -- you will write one if you reach a particular stretch goal, like those found in the various books. OR if you already have a bunch lying around that don't need much to bang into shape, make receiving a a PDF of scenarios into a higher tier reward instead.


• Token inclusion in the project -- a reward tier or multiple/different tiers could be the submission of a character or demon, or both, for inclusion in a small book of sorcerers and demons. They describe the character or demon and you stat them up.


• A crazy unique printing -- either of the main game, or the supplement, too. Make this a high tier, limited number reward. Like a leather-bound, full-color glossy, special edition thingie that you bled all over with your own blood (kidding).


• Attend a demon-summoning with Ron Edwards -- you'll attempt to call forth the denizens of the dark realm with drugs and rock and roll! Ok, no. (Though these guys pitching a Lovecraft-inspired film via KS did do a high tier reward where they would do a seance with you in Providence and attempt to summon the spirit of Lovecraft from his grave.) How about just running a game of Sorcerer at GenCon/Forge Midwest/wherever for some backer and X of their friends as a high tier reward.


• Hookers and blow.

That's just off the top of my head.

[Eero Tuovinen]

Oh, we're inventing cool yet extraneous play aids for stretch goals or additional rewards? Might as well, better to brainstorm now than afterwards.

How about a custom cardboard character sheet? It'd be full-color on sturdy cardboard, laminated so as to be erasable and reusable. There would be a couple of cardboard wheels (or perhaps pull-tags) on it for tracking combat penalties and Humanity. The sheet would fold into a folder, of course, instead of being two-sided. Give 4-ish of them to the eligible VIP backers so as to equip the entire group at once, obviously.

Sorcerer dice shouldn't have special symbols (they don't explode or anything, so the highest value isn't special mechanically). Instead, your Sorcerer dice pack should include ~15 black d10s for the GM and ~15 white d10s for the players, as well as a custom dice tower (I'd favour a Janus-like demon's head where you put dice in through one mouth and the other then pukes them out). The idea would be that with two different dice colors you could process all the dice through the tower simultaneously in a normal two-sided conflict. Or, for ultimate decadence, just make the tower small and compact enough to get each player their own.

Of course, the more technologically-minded backers would appreciate a stretch goal for developing a Sorcerer dice application for mobile platforms. A basic mode for rolling dice pools against each other and calculating victories, of course, but also a complex conflict aid that calculates initiative order and so on automatically. Probably no point doing a character sheet application or such to accompany it.

Moving on, an affordable-yet-cool way of tracking Humanity involves two sheets of stickers: the GM uses the first one to distribute Humanity points to the players, and the other one is applied directly on top of the first one to mark off lost points. Once your last gold star (or whatever the stickers look like) is covered by the skull, that's when it's over for your character.

Hmm... that's what I've got for now. For the record, I don't personally want any of this stuff. Well, maybe the demon-head dice tower; that could be sweet.

[Ron Edwards]

Maybe you guys aren't seeing that this isn't a lark for me. I'm not sitting on a cart of goodies flinging them left and right as people cheer. If I can't get Adept into a more usable and flatly possible condition, then I'm closing down. This isn't a matter of bankruptcy (sales are fine), it's about stress and service. Right now, I have a depressingly long list of customers who were shorted on their order of Sorcerer core books, waiting for this PDF out of the goodness of their hearts. I not only have to do right by them, but make sure that I'm not in this position again.

So it's not about extras. This is about fundamentals. I am behind, stifled, stalled, and frequently hogtied concerning fundamentals of Adept Press - getting the payments + fulfilling product. This Kickstart is about getting me on my feet and redefining what my whole payment + product model is.

So no! I am not interested in "brainstorming" which is really a form of fantasizing. I am interested in things which are not more fucking "to do" items, but which rather help me solve the problems I have.

Many of the suggestions and points in the thread have been really helpful. Raven, I completely agree with you about visuals at the Kickstart webpage, and I appreciate the portrait of the Kickstart enthusiast. Please note that a bad-ass physical book like you've described is already part of the plan.

But (here I'm speaking to everyone) if you have a suggestion like the demon-dice or stuff like that ... do you know how much it costs and how much stressful time it takes to produce dice? To package them to mail to dozens of people? To ship them? Tell you what - I'll add any cool item like that you suggest, if you personally commit to producing the physical items and getting them to the people who qualify for them without pay. Right out of your own pocket and carved from your own life. Because that's what it would be for me to do it.

I chose the t-shirts and shot glass because they are very easy to order, produce, and fulfill. The little demon-figures will stay in the plan as long as I think they'll fall into that category too. But stuff that isn't? I can't do it. It can't be part of this picture.

Best, Ron

[Eero Tuovinen]

Perhaps the comedy didn't quite communicate here. I was just playing off Raven's list, which amused me exactly because it's full of "extra work", as you've been characterizing it.

For what it's worth, I'm obviously available if there's anything I can help with in getting this revision of Adept business off the ground.

[greyorm]

Maybe you guys aren't seeing that this isn't a lark for me. I'm not sitting on a cart of goodies flinging them left and right as people cheer.

Understood. And the site is really grating on me...this edit apparently didn't make it through thanks to the constant timing-out but there was a "Of course depending on what you have the time or energy to do, some or none of these may be possible."

I posted what I did given you already had some additional bits to add as bennies that seemed like a bit of work, and there seemed to be some concern about getting enough folks excited about the project to make the goal, with these being riffs on bennies I have seen successfully used by other projects to boost overall sales/interest at lower tiers.

But (here I'm speaking to everyone) if you have a suggestion like the demon-dice or stuff like that ... do you know how much it costs and how much stressful time it takes to produce dice? To package them to mail to dozens of people? To ship them? Tell you what - I'll add any cool item like that you suggest, if you personally commit to producing the physical items and getting them to the people who qualify for them without pay. Right out of your own pocket and carved from your own life. Because that's what it would be for me to do it.

Hold on a moment there, Ron, you don't pay for this stuff out of YOUR own pocket. It comes out of the backing funds. I'd be willing to help out with this, but can't do it out-of-my-pocket because I don't have the funds as that's what the pledges are for. If you're serious, call me or e-mail me and let's talk about this.

Also, Eero, forgive me for reacting this way, and I realize this likely wasn't your purpose in making fun of my perhaps ill-considered attempt at contribution, but I feel like the butt of an equally ill-considered joke.