Sorcerer and Satan

[Judd]

Really? Right now? I've been fiddling with the idea of a Sorcerer idea that makes the game about Satan for years (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?253749-Sorcerer-Cursed-by-Satan!) and recently, during a hectic move and big life change, I got some ideas that I wrote down and wanted to share.

Sorcerer and Satan

Demons are:

Satan (choose your flavor - Old Scratch, Deceiver, Heavy Metal Goat, Anti-Hero?)

Satan's Curse (even if you consider it a blessing)

Stolen Goods from Hell

Lore Descriptors
I put different 0 Humanity effects for each Lore Descriptor, not sure if that will end up working and also put a suggestion for what to write on the back of the sheet in the Lore area.

Son of Satan
1) write down your family tree

2) 0 Humanity = Descend into your rightful place in Hell

Cult
1) How does the cult transgress using sex and violence and what do meetings look like?

2) 0 Humanity = the cult sacrifices you to Satan.

Cursed
1) How did you become cursed?

2) 0 Humanity = Soul subsumed (servant of another player, cold NPC agent of Satan or into hell)

Ignorant/Naive
1) What choice did you make that allowed Satan into your life?

2) 0 Humanity = New Lore, New Price, New Kicker

Other Thoughts

I'd probably go with Will and Stamina descriptors right out of the main book, I think.

You can Pact with God (10 Power/10 Will) and the Angels.

10 Humanity = Messiah? Second Coming?

Hell/Purgatory/Heaven as Otherworlds.

I need to define Humanity. Could Humanity be tied with what flavor of Satan is in the game? Does Heavy Metal Goat Satan demand a different Humanity definition than a slick-Armani-Suit Satan or a Viggo Mortensen out of the Prophecy-inspired Satan? Or is Satan fundamentally about greed and selfishness, making Humanity loss checks about sacrificing others for your own goals and Humanity gains about sacrifice and putting others before yourself.

I wrote down ideas in my notebook about if two players both want to start with Satan bound, how they do their initial binding roll verse one another and whoever wins has Satan bound and whoever loses has recently lost control of the Devil to the other player.

Thoughts appreciated.

damn it - unnecessary edit - now removed - RE

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Judd!

Thought #1: Humanity is not an in-fiction concept. It's defined solely by human beings at the table, and specifically, judgment about it is the purview of the GM during play.

So it can't be subject to different in-fiction interpretations of sorcery, or different in-fiction entities. It's a matter of what you, as GM, think is of value regarding the real issues of play.

At the dangerously addictive site TV Tropes, they talk about the "Space Whale Aesop," i.e., an Aesop (moral lesson) which depends too heavily on particular fantastic in-fiction consequences. It's named after Star Trek IV, which upon some reflection is not about "Preserve biodiversity because it's cool/beautiful/good," but rather, "Preserve biodiversity because if you don't, the space whale probe will come and get pissed off because there aren't any whales." Which isn't, you know, especially compelling in any sense except in the highly specific and, crucially, not real context of that exact fiction.

Humanity 0 isn't about a character being shunted to some in-fiction fate. It's about a character having gone too far too often to be considered a potential protagonist any more. The Tropes guys actually have a term for that too, the Moral Event Horizon.

The important thing about the Moral Event Horizon is that it's not an in-fiction event, it's an audience-response event, specifically an irreversible judgment. And in playing Sorcerer, that particular audience role is played by the GM as paced and otherwise affected by the dice. Unless the GM is bringing his or her genuine judgment, as an audience member, down upon that character each and every time a Humanity check is called for, then the power of Humanity 0 (as a potential event or as an actual one) is diminished or even lost.

So I suggest forgetting about the fiction for a minute, and thinking about the characters in this game. You're the GM. What sort of actions do you consider to place the character in the vicinity of, or pointed toward, the Moral Event Horizon?

Best, Ron

[Judd]

Solid advice, Ron. Thanks.

Once my print copy of Sorcerer Annotated arrives, I'll re-read it along with &Sword, &Soul and &Sex before taking another swipe at this and maybe getting a playtest posse together.

[glandis]

I'll follow a Trek IV aside, because it may be relevant to the judgement issue.  I think what Trek IV tried to do (with various judgements of success possible) was say "preserve biodiversity or Ye Shall Be Judged Harshly."   By making the whale space probe mysterious and uncommunicative and all (which annoyed the hell out of me when I first saw it), they hoped to allow the audience to insert whatever they wanted (themselves? God?) into the role of that-which-judges. Stupid Aesop Space Whale being an unfortunate possibility not quite (I'd say) sufficiently minimized.

Yet (and this is the possibly-relevant part), I'd think multiple judgement(judger?)-possibilities are needed to prevent a plain and simple, full-stop-Aesop. Crucially (at least, to my just-granted thanks to Judd/Ron insight), in Sorcerer the judgement is for a Humanity CHECK, not directly a loss or directly a gain.  It has lately occurred to me that there's a huge difference between a judgement that is simply delivered vs. one that participates interestingly in gameplay.

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Gordon,

The best phrasing of that point to date can be found in [Sorcerer] One Sheet: The Russian Winter.

Best, Ron