I had a great time tonight, launching my big, fat BW campaign. The group has really come along in their interest and understanding of the system. They still complain about IMS, though. I use a fixed PTGS (of two to twelve pips that steps by two) and first edition wound penalties. This allows us to skip a step of conversion. Still, no one can do it quickly yet, besides me.
Straightforward Announcement Flouts the ScriptJason brought his wife, Tracy, to the session. This was a welcome surprise. She is not an experienced gamer, and was therefore very sensible in her expectations for immediate payoff. That, and she was completely unabashed in purpose and input. Most of the things she announced were fluid, sweeping and progressive.
- T: I order the High Guard to escort the villagers to the town hall. Is there a tunnel in the hall?
- GM: There is now.
- T: I send two runners ahead to call for re-enforcements and direct the crowd down the passageway.
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The script didn't really offer any advantage in processing this kind of input. Still, since this action occurred as the elvish militia joined the High Guard to repel Orcish razers and archers outside the hall, we priced each step and walked her through the procedure.
Demon Kids
While we waited for the full group to arrive, my niece and nephew flailed about, demanding our attention. At one point, Jason had to take me aside and explain that he'd paid for a sitter to be able to attend. I eventually managed grandma to corral them.
Chargen Invasion
This happened with our Traveller campaign, also: late-comers blocked play with chargen duties. BW is not impossible, but you notice the chore.
On a side note, I laughed several times tonight at how insulated one or another particular player's knowledge is; some know elves, some know orcs; almost none really know humans, which is the one I know pretty well. Elves are the most alien. Ho-lee. Orcs are highly colorful. We're all getting off on having enemies with faces and names. And despicable tactics. They're impossible to pity.
12 LP Ominous
Luke (Neatrour) plays an exiled orcish shaman of legendary power. His scenes are electric. The other players at the table are literally afraid of him. I know I am.
In our preliminary session, I asked each player to write a statement of concept and three targets for play. One of Luke's items was to amass a power base to decimate the Troll Lord Clan Chieftain, Dirk Biter, and his generals. I wrote him into the shared cavern hall of the Looter and Trophy Killer Clans of cave dwellers, Jahkhul and Drek. After many honorifics and much genuflection, Surt arose and tore out Jahkhul's throat. "Bow, maggots! I claim your allegiance."
In another scene, Durmet the Halfbreed Highwayman, intercepted a party of two merchant carriages. Caught on respite before twin crossbows, the purchased sword hands wisely laid their arms aside. Defied by a pantalooned, crop-haired fop, waving his poniard about in the manner of one who chiefly opens letters, Durmet cleaved the man's shoulder with such force as to knock him from the carriage ladder. His henchmen looted their coffers and chests of silks while Durmet drew the merchant son's belly into the grass, provoking pitiable lamentations from the ladies attending his travels.
This character really holds my interest. His mother was a Follower of the Light; his father, a Defiler of the clave dwellers. He carries magical immunity and yet is himself a malformed, arcane creature.
Mass Combat
After the Sowers of the Crow Field and the Firebrands razed the elvish city of Polee, Vorzell, Lord Protector of Reya, was charged by the Etharch's war council to summon a host of lancers, rangers and sword-singers to re-take it. He drew together 250 elves and scouted the ravaged city, still rampant with black devils.
It was a hell of a fight. The orcs held seven towers and milled about the burned homes like fleas, over 400 in number. Several things seized our minds throughout this debacle:
- Grey Reflexes: So What – sure it sounds cool. But how much can one badass elf do against an angry sky of pelting arrows and rows of aggravated murderers, up to the horizon?
- The Wonder of Wonderment – this stuff is magic in play. The Firebrands had laminated sheets filled with H's for "hesitation." Those poor bastards either landed in pools of their own drool, filleted by lancer strafes, or they ran screaming into the woods, desperately seeking the marshlands to the East.
- Tracking Madness – my god, tracking this stuff was a pain in the ass. I put the players in charge of the NPC's and we made a wargame of it. We had to improvise methods for counts of actions. I held ref duty. The volume required player dedication to drive volleys forward and spot-check application of penalties.
- Impenetrable Elven Mail – Cory came to roll armor protection dice as Luke reached for his Strike pool and then say, "Denied." Above three dice of coverage, it performed too well.
- Called Shot Mass Murder – another tactic that was wildly exaggerated by the scale of conflict was calling shots. It was so lopsided that we had to rule on it before proceeding. Cory's argument was that the archers did not possess the communal telepathy required to perfectly distribute their targeting. My counter was that high coverage of armor had ground progress to a halt. We eventually settled on allowing rolling an even split of forces per unit, one for the non-determined hit and one for the called shot. As weird as it may sound, I feel that really struck the right balance.
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Ultimately, the elvish host was driven off. It was a Phyrric victory for the orcs. They lost nearly half their number in casualties. And though the tower archers held Polee, the Firebrands had disbanded entirely.
********
We've really got the magic with this one. Everyone's hugely invested in their character concept. They truly are the stars of the story. I'm writing step A and (instead of writing step B) letting play decide how I'll write the next step A. I would share more thoughts, but my poor wrists are asking me to stop.
I welcome comments. Especially hardcore BW-heads!
Hi Bill,
Sheesh. You sure don't pull any punches on you first go 'round do you? Managing a battle in any game -- BW included -- is complex. First session is just madness. I'm just curious, what prompted such a mad desire in your game?
I'm glad everyone had a good time.
Some questions: Did you let a character start with Gray Reflexes? Why? I honestly and seriously recommend you pull that player aside and have him tone it down. You may have had fun with it in mass battle, but you're not going to like it next session -- or ever.
QuoteIn our preliminary session, I asked each player to write a statement of concept and three targets for play.
This is an excellent way to get things started, but were they tied into Beliefs and Instincts? If not, then why?
I assume that, since the player characters are the "stars" of the story, that the situations all revolve around they're concepts and targets?
Some fixes:
The new armor rules fix the problem you were having.
And the new missile mechanics rules compensate largely for the handling time you were experiencing in the mass missile fire. You only track one or two actions, and one or two die rolls.
thanks for the post!
-Luke
Quote from: abzuManaging a battle .. is complex .. I'm just curious, what prompted such a mad desire in your game?
Chiefly, it's a reflection of the source material (i.e. Tolkein); and also, my personal preference is to feature some degree of large scale conflict. We'll have smaller fights, from fracas to duel, also.
Quote from: abzuDid you let a character start with Gray Reflexes? Why? I honestly and seriously recommend you pull that player aside and have him tone it down. You may have had fun with it in mass battle, but you're not going to like it next session -- or ever.
Mainly because he wanted it. I did catch Cory counting rolls as grey everything a couple times last night, but it was just oversight. Luke Neatrour had similiar concerns, but I don't share them. Vorzell
is powerful. He
can kill many, many foes, unaided. I want to support Cory in playing this concept. Besides, there's quite a difference between having a big gun and having the nerve to use it.
Quote from: abzuThis is an excellent way to get things started, but were they tied into Beliefs and Instincts? If not, then why?
I assume that, since the player characters are the "stars" of the story, that the situations all revolve around they're concepts and targets?
[Reviews character sheets.] A resounding "yes!" I truly don't know why, but almost every character, by BIT's and play target synonyms, are embroiled in racial strife. You could call this the Racism Campaign. One example:
BIT's
- B1: Smuggle first -- kill later.
- B2: Humans are weak scum. Orcs deserve to die. Elves are pompous scum but taste good with a little guacamole.
- B3: Mercy is for the weak.
- I1: Draw sword at the first sign of trouble.
- I2: Sleep with sword out of the scabbard.
Play targets
- Find and kill my father; avenge my mother's pain.
- Destroy my hometown of Thrumbey as payback for the townspeople's ridicule and scorn.
- Demand acknowledgement and respect for the halfbreeds.
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This is Durmet. The situation that introduced him to play was the highway robbery scene, above; it was directed by his vocation. But he really is the star. Thrumbey was created for him. His parents have been written into the back story to fill his order for play. (Not wanting to give anymore away, just yet!)
RE: Revised armor rules.
Hmmm .. I did playtest these and decided not to use them. My main complaint is the field plate case: at 5D per, even at a modest three locations (torso & arms, legs and head), that's fifteen dice! Far too many.
Unless I'm misunderstanding something .. ?
I must wait with everyone else for revised missile mechanics, as they have not been released. (Looking forward to it!)
bill,
just a quick note about armor: clear your mind of the old way. in the new way, all shots are called. there are no "general hits" and so new armor works per location only.
-L
Aaaaaaah! (Evil smile.)
So I guess the called shot obstacle penalty goes away, also. If that's true, what's the downside to targeting an unarmored location? I know with TROS, damage capacity is greater for certain body locations. (e.g. The torso, containing many vital organs.) I can see Telegraphing as a counterbalance to picking on sweet spots.
I looked for new armor rules in the downloads section of the BW website and couldn't find them. Ah! Here it is:
In Alternate Armor Rules (http://www.burningwheel.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=436),
Quote from: abzuThere is no overall armor roll. Each location is armored separately according to the type of armor worn. Players declare shots to various areas (at the standard +1 Ob pen), undeclared shots hit chest/center mass.
So, for my players:
- Default Strike location is the chest.
- Called shots are +1 Ob.
- DN is fixed at 4.
- Armor type is reflected by die pool; i.e. Leather = 2D, Re-enforced Leather = 3D, Mail = 4D, Plate = 5D.
- VA is applied as an obstacle penalty. (e.g. Armor protection from a sword Strike has an obstacle of 3 (base 1 + VA 2).)
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Interesting. We'll try this out.
Whew, it's been ages since I last posted on the Forge. Luke (Neatrour) here. The one playing the exiled orcish shaman. So far I am enjoying my first Burning Wheel experience. The rules are a little different than I am used to, but refreshing once I started to get a handle on the basic mechanics. I am also enjoying playing a character different than my usuals. The old lame, one armed, nearly defunct orcish shaman full of rage and hatred; has really been interesting for me to explore. Most of my questions, have allready been asked by Bill here, and are allready being answered. So, I must say, I am ready have another go.
As for Cory's character with grey reflexes.... yeah, so he was wading through orc fodder with impunity, as one would expect from an elvish hero. He could still be put in his place by a few orcish archers firing off a few called shots from up in their towers.
While tackling massive battles is usually not what I'd do with the first session of a new system for the players... I was surprised at how smoothly it ended up running once we started to address a few hiccups in our use of the rules, ie. called-shots en mass.
Well, I look forward to the next session with eager anticipation.
-Luke (Neatrour)
Likewise Luke.
It's post-Super Bowl now so bear with me if I am incoherent.(This is Cory btw).
1. I wanted a gray reflexes to emulate Legolas and his blinding speed, except I focused more on the sword than the bow.
2. I focused on the sword thankfully, because the Elven bow sucks.(how crappy is that eh?!?!)
3. In actual play, my 'god-like' character only killed one person.
4. Massive called shots suck. That made 215 out of 225(not 250 Billy) of my forces take a +2 penalty. Billy basically took the number of troops I chose and doubled it.. with far more archers than footsoldiers. The lancer's horses were all cut down by one attack from the Orcish archers.
5. The raw average stats for the orcs were higher than for the elves. My lancers at 6 dice matched his archers at 6 dice.. but there were 350 or so Orcish archers and only 50 lancers on my side. My other forces had disadvantages in dice and in numbers.
6. Elven armor is negated with called shots, and there was one time that with my 5 armor dice.. I failed to roll a 6... so most of my forces got hit.
7. Keeping track of armor failures and penalties in mass combat was a chore. Keeping track of the VA and such was also a chore since there were different weapons and the DOF thing with the bows... and also different IMS and whatnot.
8. Only 25 of my soldiers died, because I made a tactical mistake going after those towers too soon.
9. Wonderment is awesome indeed, but some of the Elvish songs are verrry difficult.
10. Forgetting to sing *before* entering combat.. that sucked. It would have taken me 8 sets of volleys before I finished this one song. And you thought it took awhile for the Treants in LOTR to speak in their native language....
11. I kept thinking that most of the elvish stats were gray because mine were, and I was rolling far more often that the other forces on my side...
Despite the complications it was awesome. Yes, my forces did 'fail' to retake the town, but I have a second wave planned. Hopefully this will be the time to playtest the 'new' rules and compare results. The elves killed far more than they lost, so I felt that we partially succeeded.
Tactically, we had the edge especially with the wonderment thing. I had an attack with the archers first to draw the enemy towards them and then flank with the lancers and also with the sword-singers that came through the tunnel. That one massive called shot changed everything though.
The elves could have won if they stayed and cut down the enemy archers on the ground and then shot some flaming arrows into those guard towers.. but it was around 230am or so and I was beyond caring at that point. My character was also going to heal-up and then return to the rear after singing the Threne of the Cameleon and then set fire to the rear towers also.. but I didn't care to press that issue either.
Next session is on March 5th, which is my birthday! :)
-Cory
Hi Bill,
just a quick clarification on the armour rules.
The default hit-location is only for ranged weapons.
In melee the location is chosen by the target (aka telegraphing). And it costs one success to move it one location - telegraphed arm to chest to unarmoured head costs two successes (ob 3 to hit).
Works suprisingly well and gives a great flow to the battle as you now have to choose damage over accuracy.
As for the called shot massmurder bit, I'd say that i have to agree with Cory. Also the high coverage of armour seemed to do its job, and my initial reaction is that you are penalising Cory for foresight.
But then again you'll find the new armour rules very comfortable indeed (pun intended) and then just equip the orcs with AP arrrows and those nancypancy elves will fall like wheat.
Quote from: NegilentIn melee the location is chosen by the target (aka telegraphing). And it costs one success to move it one location ..
The plot thickens! At first blush, I like. (And thank you for clarifying.)
The competition between armor and called shots last session was dissatisfactory to everyone. I assume Cory is laughing his ass off that you're taking his side:) I'm encouraged by the revised rule disclosures and look forward to trying them out.
This is my first post on the Forge - although I've lurked once or twice.
I'm part of the group that consists of bcook1971, Ingenious, and ZazielsRephaim.
My post may stray from ACTUAL PLAY topic, but it relates to this group and this game.
I play the Halfbreed Highwayman (Darmet).
I must say this is a different character than any I've had in years of gaming. In recent years I've enjoyed branching out to a variety of characters from the stealthy or theivish characters all the way to the lawman character. Actually I've played almost everything except the most evil of evil. But never an outcast of this magnitude. This was actually a goal in creating Darmet. Dispised by all, welcome by none, and resentful to everyone that crosses his path.
I did notice as the others presented their characters in play that my character had nothing on any of them. Yes, I tend to prefer an underdog.
What caught my eye most is how many skill points you have to have in many skills to have a decent chance of being successful. Unless you get lucky. Especially when it's a contest of my skill against another character resisting my action or when against armor (for instance - Elven chain).
I do like the +1 OB rule on called shots. It makes sense.
The main thing - no matter how the game goes, I know I'll have fun with this character.
Violence -
there was another thread on the Forge about shocking violence.
My disclaimer on this character is that I anticipate shocking violence will stem from his resentment toward all full races, and his short fuse when it comes to years of being shunned and ridiculed.
Quote
In another scene, Durmet the Halfbreed Highwayman, ................. Durmet cleaved the man's shoulder with such force as to knock him from the carriage ladder. His henchmen looted their coffers and chests of silks while Durmet drew the merchant son's belly into the grass, provoking pitiable lamentations from the ladies attending his travels.
This character really holds my interest. His mother was a Follower of the Light; his father, a Defiler of the clave dwellers. He carries magical immunity and yet is himself a malformed, arcane creature.[/color]
Chargen Invasion
This happened with our Traveller campaign, also: late-comers blocked play with chargen duties. BW is not impossible, but you notice the chore.
I apologize for the Chargen issue in Traveller, I didn't realize the negative impact and was honestly only trying to speed along the prep when able.
Quote
Demon Kids
While we waited for the full group to arrive, my niece and nephew flailed about, demanding our attention. At one point, Jason had to take me aside and explain that he'd paid for a sitter to be able to attend. I eventually managed grandma to corral them.
I also didn't mean to make such an impact with my comment regarding the "Demon Kids", but it was impossible for me to concentrate, and believe it or not, these game sessions are the greatest contributor to stress relief for me. Sad, but true..... I was just concerned that it would be all night.
Anyway - back to the game.
BW has been a little challenging for me for two reasons.
The Character generation is cumbersome. It's not so bad after you do one or two, but I still find myself constantly flipping back and forth throughout the reference materials. Seems like it could be streamlined.
IMS threw me off until Billy explained it
Maybe it's because I have lost patience over the years or have a lot less time than I used to in which I can dedicate to learning a new system.
30 seconds in the microwave and it should be done...... right?
I can't wait until our next session and am thankful to Billy for spurring us all on to try new systems. It's been an adventure in itself.
ok,
I messed up tagging some of the quotes,
but I think you can piece it together.
Jason is so polite;) Don't worry, man. I'm a little open on these boards, but it's only meant to express the group dynamic. For the record, your Traveller campaign (here (http://indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=12387&highlight=) and here (http://indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=13049&highlight=)) was the bomb!
P.S. Welcome to the Forge.