The Forge Archives

Archive => Indie Game Design => Topic started by: Le Joueur on June 11, 2002, 06:47:36 PM

Title: Who's in Charge Here?
Post by: Le Joueur on June 11, 2002, 06:47:36 PM
I am preparing the next "Emergent Techniques" article for the Scattershot forum and I think I'm having problems.  I want to 'capture' more of the usual unspoken dynamic that drives a game forward outside of the narrative itself.  After thinking about the many 'whining sessions' I have been in or read about, that seemed pertinent too.

But I've been really struggling with this one.  I feel like I am missing something and would like to invite fresh commentary.  What I am specifically looking for is twofold; I need to know if this goes anywhere in the first place and I need to know if you can suggest anything I am overlooking.

Before I get this going, I think I should mention its relationship with the other parts of Scattershot's Techniques, both presented and 'in the works.'  As far as we have put into the game, there are four basic 'realms' of control: Proprietorship, Leadership, Spotlight Time, and 'Who is Speaking.'
Title: Who's in Charge Here?
Post by: Paul Czege on June 11, 2002, 08:21:16 PM
Hey Fang,

I think you've got a lot good stuff in there. The section on addressing problems is a nice, incisive outgrowth of the prior notions that I think has quite a bit of practical value.

Let me tell you what I think of when someone raises the issue of leadership in the context of RPG's, and you can translate it into your thinking on techniques: I think of the guys I used to game with back in high school and early college, one guy in particular, and the dynamics of how the players all jockeyed for leadership significance. I've used the phrase "niche selection" before, and people always re-state it as "niche protection." I don't think they're synonymous. Niche protection is something the system does for you, on behalf of you enjoying some significance in gameplay. Classes in AD&D protect the significance of player characters by apportioning chunks of effectiveness across the game's concept of a typical party. Niche selection is something you do to gameplay, on behalf of the significance of your character. This group of guys and I used to play a lot of Stalking the Night Fantastic, a dreadful, awkwardly realized attribute + skill system that had somehow managed to capture the imagination of the group.

Niche selection, as I understand it, crosses both in-game and metagame effectiveness. And this one guy in particular took niche selection to a high art. The idea is that the player chooses a metagame niche for which they want recognition from the other players, and then they create a character that allows them to demonstrate their metagame skills to the group. The guy I keep referring to was very much interested in getting recognition from the players, his peers, for his tactical skills. So, for him, character creation was an exercise in unusual, but effective combinations. And when a conflict situation emerged within the game, he would quickly steer things in the direction of a tactical solution, asking questions in such a way that they functioned as delegations of responsibility to the other players. "I say we need to know what's in the woodshed before we go any closer to this damn house."

And y'know, it worked. His ability to control the in-game conflicts, and make everything an exercise in tactics, translated to the real world. We were all friends. If we needed to get a bunch of supplies to a party, guess who got looked to for leadership?

Anyway, that's what comes to mind when I think of leadership in RPG play, players interpreting game situations in ways that create a niche of significance for their characters.

Paul
Title: Who's in Charge Here?
Post by: Laurel on June 11, 2002, 10:09:53 PM
Paul's excellent post helped me look at all of this with fresh insight.  Let me share what occurred to me after re-reading the original post again.

Game Leadership is similar to leadership here at the Forge, so I'm going to offer an analogy to see if that helps.  Ron & Clinton are obvious leaders and equivalent in some ways to GMs or Scattershot moderators, but there's many a time when someone else is able to lead the group into a specific direction in a thread or topic, based on three things I think.  

1) Personal charisma
2) Experience with the subject matter
3) The interest other people share in the suggested topic or goal.
Title: So you think...
Post by: Le Joueur on June 14, 2002, 04:32:25 AM
Hey Paul,

I'm sorry for taking so long in getting back to this, but I wanted to give it a good deal of thought (and an emergency root canal and my first ever vaso vagal syncope can be really distracting).

Quote from: Paul CzegeLet me tell you what I think of when someone raises the issue of leadership in the context of RPG's, and you can translate it into your thinking on techniques:

I've used the phrase "niche selection" before, and people always re-state it as "niche protection." I don't think they're synonymous. Niche protection is something the system does for you, on behalf of you enjoying some significance in gameplay....

Niche selection is something you do to gameplay, on behalf of the significance of your character.
This is very interesting and very useful.  I have been focussing a little too much on in-game niche protection issues.  You bring up a very interesting thought; how this has impact outside of the game.  After all, pretty much the whole point with Sine Qua Non (http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2009) is in-game niche selection, I forgot completely to discuss 'relative niche selection' in my rush to work out the soon-to-be posted conflict resolution Techniques.

Quote from: Paul CzegeNiche selection, as I understand it, crosses both in-game and metagame effectiveness. And this one guy in particular took niche selection to a high art. The idea is that the player chooses a metagame niche for which they want recognition from the other players, and then they create a character that allows them to demonstrate their metagame skills to the group. The guy I keep referring to was very much interested in getting recognition from the players, his peers, for his tactical skills. So, for him, character creation was an exercise in unusual, but effective combinations.

...We were all friends. If we needed to get a bunch of supplies to a party, guess who got looked to for leadership?

Anyway, that's what comes to mind when I think of leadership in RPG play, players interpreting game situations in ways that create a niche of significance for their characters.
That's right!  Very good Mr. Czege.  Since Sine Qua Non (http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2009) is also about niche selection that puts the "Who's in Charge" stuff right in parallel.  So what you're saying is that I should augment this article with some discussion about the self-selection of these 'Meta-niches?'  Perhaps referencing how the personality dynamics of a group will have certain people being the Leader often.  Aye, that's a really good idea, thank you.

Is that what you had in mind?

Now if I might take a short aside, you also got me thinking about how the Leadership issue scores across the whole of Scattershot's gaming model (http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1339).  Your friend, in both effectiveness and self-selection of Leadership, has done so for "getting recognition from the players, his peers, for his tactical skills."  And you point out that people choose a "metagame niche for which they want recognition from the other players."  Sometimes I forget the 'people' side of things, but this makes perfect sense.

Just from the sound of it this player strikes me as using a Joueur Approach (http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1339).  It's not really important to analyze if this is true because the point is that he also does it for "recognition."  More than I'd like to admit, I play similarly.  Only not to impress with my "tactical skills."  I'm afraid that I'm a bit of a 'spotlight hog,' but not in the bad way.  (I like to impress my peers with the 'quality' of my play, usually when I find the game or the gamemaster boring; if I 'steal the show' fairly, I 'win.')

This brings up two whole new dimensions I'm going to need to work out with my partner.  First, how each Approach obviously has a number of different (and potentially conflicting) 'directions.'  Your friend sound like a Joueur (http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1339) player whose interest is in tactics and victory.  Sometimes when I take the Joueur Approach (http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1339), I like to 'politic' (one of the reasons I have been so disappointed in any of the World of Darkness live-action role-playing games I have been involved in; they all became 'mission oriented' whereas I was looking for courtly intrigue.)

Second, how your approach colors (and is best facilitated during) your out-of-game play.  If you Approach play in tactical, Joueur (http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1339) fashion, you may want to 'impress others' with it (as opposed to simply for the satisfaction of 'winning').  An Avatar player (http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1339) might want others to be impressed by their 'performance' of the persona.  And so on, but that's the meat for a different thread.

Thank you for your insightful and thought-provoking commentary; you have definitely had an impact on my thinking (and we'll need to discuss it at length before I get any of it 'out').

Fang Langford

p. s. I'm not sure I 'want to go there' with the "niche of significance" stuff; everybody wants to be important and valuable, I might take that up more in the 'activating the players' component of Scattershot, but I'm not sure that belongs in the Leadership part (except in the 'responsibilities of leadership' part).
Title: A Good Point and Room for Expansion
Post by: Le Joueur on June 14, 2002, 04:32:44 AM
You make some really good points, Laurel.  I think what you discuss touches on a couple of different issues, so I'll address them separately.

Quote from: LaurelGame Leadership is similar to leadership here at the Forge, so I'm going to offer an analogy to see if that helps.  Ron & Clinton are obvious leaders and equivalent in some ways to GMs or Scattershot moderators, but there's many a time when someone else is able to lead the group into a specific direction in a thread or topic, based on three things I think.  

1) Personal charisma
2) Experience with the subject matter
3) The interest other people share in the suggested topic or goal.
First of all, Leadership: You're right, I should probably delve a little deeper into the kinds of Leadership there are.  I did briefly in a previous draft, but cut it when I decided to seek help.  I spoke of passive Leadership, meaning a Leader whose practice was to work to get others' desires met.  That's just the tip of the iceberg however.

I agree that will be important in the overall game, but can you tell me if I should delve this deeply into the issue for a simple Forge article?

The second issue deals with the qualities that make a good Leader or a good Moderator. I agree that all of the items you list are important in the selection of permanent Leaders and permanent Moderators (which brings up a separate issue of how I might change the 'ultimate Moderator' text), but foremost I wanted to deal with the 'floating nature' of both; how Leadership changes often in what I consider a 'healthy game' (and subsequently how Moderation could as well).

Do you think I should talk about qualities that breed success for Leaders and Moderators either here or in the final drafts?  I'm not sure I should go that far (dictating what is or isn't a good indicator) in either place, however I do think I will definitely talk about what to do when you find your Leader or Moderator isn't satisfactory (this may actually be what I thought I left out).

I'd like to thank you for this compelling post.  I have some definite ideas now for additions to this article.  Before I sign off, I was wondering if anyone else had anything they think I should cover in the final article (or the final draft of the game)?

Fang Langford