I'm getting close to releasing Chthonian as a small shareware via email. But would a private webpage be a better route? I know of several people who have had great results through emailing copies, but I'd like to try something else.
I'm thinking of requiring an email, and I email back the url(s) with rules/scenarios/etc for playing the game. I could take advantage of the Internet to constantly update the beta-version documents, give sneak previews, etc. etc.
So has anyone tried this route? And if so, would you recommend just distributing a URL? A URL and a password to get access?
In an ideal world, this is what I'd do (and am currently working on):
- Allow people to sign up to get a playtest version of a document on your website. They have to enter their e-mail address and password.
- They receive an e-mail with a URL they have to go to confirm that their e-mail address is valid. (This helps you maintain a good knowledge of who has access.)
- They can then go to the download URL with their username and password. The reason I would have them all use their own password is that most people are too lazy to think up a new password for every site. They'll probably use the same password they use everywhere, which they don't want their friends to know - so they won't be handing it out.
Hi Zak,
I like the personal email option because it conveys a "hands-on, from me to you" message that people like. Mainly because it is a "hands on etc" approach.
I still handle all the direct orders for Sorcerer/etc myself, forwarding the messages to the warehouse.
Best,
Ron
We have the Paypal set-up on our "Online Store" page. When someone orders, Paypal sends us a notification email. From there, we drop the customer an email that gives them the URL from which the game can be downloaded.
For security reasons, we change the URL on a regular basis. We keep track of everyone who purchased the game so we can let them know when we've updated/corrected text in the product (free of charge, naturally).
How do you keep search engines from picking up the PDF file?
When I had the playtest version of Kayfabe on my site Google would list the file itself so you could go straight from google to the pdf file.
,Matt
For those interested:
The "putting a PDF under a secret URL" thing is a bad idea. It can very much hurt you in terms of piracy.
I'm working on a small application right now that takes a request from PayPal (they send this automatically if you set it up right), adds authorization for the customer to download the file, and then sends them an e-mail. They have to come to the page, enter a password and download it. However, the file's not in an open directory. It's actually not anywhere in the document root (if you don't know what I'm saying, stop here), and the script pipes the file's content to the user, keeping even the end user unaware of the document's location.
After I finish this (this weekend, hopefully), I'll make the files available to anyone who wants them and write a primer on how to use PayPal to sell independent games with little hassle.
Wow! Thanks for everyone's thoughts.
I'm leaning towards Ron's suggestion of emailing the thing out. It will be a zip file, containing .pdfs/.rtfs (playtest rules, intro scenario), .txts (end user agreement, note from designer), possibly some images.
I also like Clinton's thoughts on a user/password system (and I agree wit the assumption that people use the same password everywhere, so they won't share their password, keeping piracy down). Though I want the personal touch of the personal email.
Ron's approach is more personal and easier on the customer, so I'm wondering, has anyone perceived a problem with this?
Quote from: Clinton R Nixon
After I finish this (this weekend, hopefully), I'll make the files available to anyone who wants them and write a primer on how to use PayPal to sell independent games with little hassle.
I'm definitely interested in this. Very interested indeed.
Quote from: MattGwinnHow do you keep search engines from picking up the PDF file?
When I had the playtest version of Kayfabe on my site Google would list the file itself so you could go straight from google to the pdf file.
,Matt
Truthfully, I'm not sure. My webmaster said he could take care of that and it hasn't showed up on any of the search engines I tried.
Quote from: MattGwinnHow do you keep search engines from picking up the PDF file?
With Geocities and other free web page providers, you're probably out of luck to block this. If you have a proper host there's a variety of techniques you could use to block the indexing; the most common being robots.txt, a standard for telling web-robots [search engines, most generally] how to index your page. Well-behaved robots [and google is one of them, afaik] will read this file and /not/ index directories that you specify.
However, I'm sure Clinton has already put good thought into this in the software he's preparing.
Hi Zak,
The only disadvantages to the mailing-it-personally approach are fairly basic, but they're real:
- It's an ongoing thing, and the real people in your life have to understand that yes, you do have to turn on the computer and fulfil your orders today. And the next day. And ...
- Again, because it's an ongoing thing, you have to be just as enthusiastic about *not* getting any orders today as getting some, plus just as enthusiastic about the fiftieth order as the first.
- File size is a real problem, both at your end and at theirs. I've come to recognize all the commonly-used accounts that (unbeknownst to their users) automatically bounce files of a certain size. Make sure to work within the reasonable bounds of your end (well within, which is hard for many people), and state the file size on the website itself, so people have no one but themselves to blame.
- That said, you have to go the extra mile for people who've paid but can't receive the thing. I've made many a long-distance call to explain to people that no, their hotmail account cannot receive a 2-MG file, and they have to give me an alternate email if they want this thing.
I still prefer this option, though.
Best,
Ron
If people are finding reliable ways of doing these things by download, why does everyone have to use PayPal, rather than one of the other credit card agents?
Just about everyone I have mentioned it to says that PayPal is not safe. I have recommended games to people before, and had them refuse to buy them because they don't want to use PayPal.
Couldn't somebody run a kind of commercial download clearinghouse for Indie games, that might be big enough to get one of the other card agents interested?
The main rules will be a .txt or .rtf document. This will solve the file-size problem, and allow anyone to read the rules. With your mentioned space issues, Ron, I am thinking of releasing the sample scenarios and character sheets at a secret URL. That way, if the secret URL gets out, people will see it, see the character sheet, flip through the scenarios and say (ideally), "Holy crap! I want to play this game! I'd better send off my email!"
I also want to provide some method for shareware payment (would this be a new thread?), the $5 thing which puts you on the list for $5 discount on released game (if/when it is released): PayPal or mailing a check are probably the most realistic choices, but what are other options?
So, in short, my current plan:
- Provide rulebook on an email-request, email-transfer basis. Text-format to keep filesize at a minimum.
- Upon email-request, send rulebook as attachment, and provide a secret URL. This URL points to printer-friendly scenarios and character sheets and other goodies (images, pdf files, html files, etc).
- Allow for a $5 shareware payment, good for a discount if the game is released hardcopy.
Glaring errors? Subtle flaws? Things to watch for?
Oh, and thanks, everyone!
Quote from: Clinton R NixonAfter I finish this (this weekend, hopefully), I'll make the files available to anyone who wants them and write a primer on how to use PayPal to sell independent games with little hassle.
I assume you're including something to check that the amount payed through paypal is correct. If you just use a standard paypal forward, people can just create a querystring with say $0.10 as the price and a fake email address, and get your game for whatever they want to pay.
Matt
Give me a little credit - I do develop this stuff for a living.
PayPal's Instant Payment Notification (https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/pdn/pp-solutions-ipn) takes care of this. What happens is:
a) Anytime someone buys something from you, PayPal will hit a script on your website with all the details of the purchase.
b) You have to program this script to contact PayPal when hit. It sends back the entire query string.
c) PayPal checks this string against its records - if correct, it lets you know. (If not, it lets you know as well.)
d) You program your script to do whatever you want it to do when a verified payment has been made. You could e-mail a file, add a user to your database, or whatever.
No disrespect meant. It's a common enough error made by many so called web professionals. Thought it best to mention, just in case.
Matt
I forgot my smiley face - I wasn't offended. I was just ribbing you a bit.
Here it is, belated: :)
- Clinton
Quote from: Zak ArntsonWith your mentioned space issues, Ron, I am thinking of releasing the sample scenarios and character sheets at a secret URL. That way, if the secret URL gets out, people will see it, see the character sheet, flip through the scenarios and say (ideally), "Holy crap! I want to play this game! I'd better send off my email!"
If people are going to say "Holy crap! I want to play this game! I'd better send off my email!", why are you putting this stuff at a secret URL? Shouldn't you be putting this stuff on your front page like at Jared's Inspectres page?
---Jon
Quozl,
Good point. I figured I would give interested people an "in," where they would get privileged access because of their email effort. I do know that I'll put goodies up publicly once the game is actually for sale, but my plans currently just cover the shareware email-to-get rules.
Something to consider, definitely. Thanks!
Quote from: hyphzIf people are finding reliable ways of doing these things by download, why does everyone have to use PayPal, rather than one of the other credit card agents?
Just about everyone I have mentioned it to says that PayPal is not safe. I have recommended games to people before, and had them refuse to buy them because they don't want to use PayPal.
Couldn't somebody run a kind of commercial download clearinghouse for Indie games, that might be big enough to get one of the other card agents interested?
There is a commercial download clearinghouse - it's called RPGnow, and I believe it's at RPGnow.com.
On the PayPal thing: you're quoting hearsay. Put up some solid evidence of someone getting screwed with PayPal, or drop it - you're doing one of my least favorite gamer things: spreading unsubstantiated fear.
There are a couple of sites that list some real old, early days, horror stories, but I've seen nor heard of any issues recently. Every transaction I've had with them has been exceptionally quick, easy and with no problems whatsoever. The hurdles they put me through to sign up and verify my account ranked right up with root canals, but essentially were an excellent way of them confirming that I was who I said I was and actually had a real bank account with real money in it.
So Hyphz, if it makes you feel any better, before I signed up for PayPal, I visited a few of the "I hate Pay Pal sites" and came to the conclusion that every bad anecdote there could be categorized in 1 of 3 ways.
1) Stupid things that the user did that they got pissed off about because Pay Pals security measures make it difficult to correct such things quickly.
2) Transactions that quite frankly I'm GLAD Pay Pal rejects or freezes because even though they were probably quite innocent they looked suspicious, and as a banker it reassured me to know that Pay Pal was abiding by federal laws that require putting suspicious activity under a microscope before releasing assets (one story involved a $30,000 purchase from an overseas producer...who'd be placing $30,000 transactions through paypal to begin with, I can't imagine).
3) Legitimate sounding negative experiences. But most of those I found were pretty dated when PayPal was still trying to figure things out themselves. As for the rest...nothing that made me think dealing with Pay Pal was any more dangerous or more of a hassle, than dealing with my bank or a credit card company.
So I signed up...haven't regretted it yet.
Quote from: Valamir2) Transactions that quite frankly I'm GLAD Pay Pal rejects or freezes because even though they were probably quite innocent they looked suspicious, and as a banker it reassured me to know that Pay Pal was abiding by federal laws that require putting suspicious activity under a microscope before releasing assets (one story involved a $30,000 purchase from an overseas producer...who'd be placing $30,000 transactions through paypal to begin with, I can't imagine).
As someone who works in this industry, I can tell you that regulation is tight, federally. And with the passage of the recent Patriot Act, it just got much tighter. That said, I am relatively certain that they aren't looking for RPG transactions, and that such should go smoothly.
Interestingly while scrutiny has been torqued up, so has privacy, simultanously. This sort of schitzo approach to the problem makes this a complicated business. OTOH, such mandates are improving quality of service over time, so you can't really argue with them. Growing pains.
Mike
The biggest problems with PayPal I've seen amount less to being screwed and more to very slow customer service and lack of accurate information about company policy and what's going on with one's account. Frex: http://www.goldrushgames.com/paypal.html
Yoink! The thread's been hijacked! Okay, so PayPal has issues, but wasn't the initial question: "PayPal or mailing a check are probably the most realistic choices, but what are other options?"
How does one go about setting up a private webpage where one can pay by Paypal and download the book immediately? I'd like to make this available to my PDF customers, but I have no idea how to code it.
There's an example of such a page at Gold Rush Games, but obviously they are not going to share their source code with me.