I was just curious if it was a Charger or Destrier...
I would go with destier. The shire horse sound like the "biggest-best" type to me...
NT
Destrier.
thanks!
A big big horse that has come charging at my char with a lance pointing at me before =P
I'd say a Clydesdale....Or some such big horse. They need to be hearty to pull that plate
I've been educated by a horse expert on clydesdales.. Clydesdales are actually too big to be saddle horses. Their sheer girth makes it nigh impossible to sit a saddle on them, let alone do so comfortably enough to ride into battle, or for any length of time. Clydesdales were bred to be workhorses, hauling loads and carrying weights that would kill lesser horses.
As I remember, a destrier is notably smaller than a clydesdale, but is still a formidably sized horse, bred for strength, intelligence and ferocity. A trained destrier is a weapon more than a mount. Destriers were not ridden from place to place, as long-distance stamina is not their strong suit, though they've got that which is natural to all horses of course.
Oh, and 90 pounds of armor (if that) is notable weight to a human, but I doubt it'll phase a good horse much at all.
If I'm not mistaken the majority of European warhorses, in real life, were either Percherons or Freisians (sp?). A country like Stahl, which seems very Germanic to me, would probably use a horse similar to the Freisian, which was Danish in origin.
Lance was that an American Horse Trainer or an English one?
I'd certainly believe it would be all but impossible to ride a Clydesdale with an American Saddle. But in an English saddle, and also in a knight's saddle, you ride in more of a seated position with the knees high. I suspect its quite possible with that sort of saddle.
I don't remember what her credentials were, but she was writing up a detailed bit on horses for the FFRP community that I'm a member of, with different types of horses, breeds, etc. I believe she was conversant with both English and Western saddles, though. I have no way to ask to be sure.
There actually is quite some discussion as to what a destrier looked like historically. Some think that it would have been a heavy hunter. At the same time, many draft horse breeds claim descendance from war horses. One needs to keep in mind that descendance is not the same as being the same. They were obviously optimized for drafting over the centuries after they became obsolete as war mounts. One also needs to consider regional variances. Andalusians were considered prized horses -but were hardly common outside Andalusia. William the Conqueror has been mentioned has having received one as a gift. That being said, it is entirely feasible that the few Andalusians available outside spain were crossed with local, heavier stock, to join their speed and agility with the physical prowess of the more robust northern horses.
One recent attempt to 'reconstruct' the warhorse is the so-called Spanish Norman, a cross between Andalusians and french Percheron, with at least 50% Andalusian blood. For being 50% andalusian, they are quite tall and strong, but do not look as bulky as, say, a Belgian. (see http://www.spanish-norman.com for example)
A Frisian is probably also a good guess for an approximate look, given that there are reports of Frisians, whatever they looked like at the time, being used as war horses, and that they are agile enough to be used in dressage, but also strong enough to be used to pull small carts.
In real life there is a breed of large horse called a Shire which was originally breed in England as a work horse. As for Clydesdales, yes they are large horses but they are definatly ridable. I have several friends that own clydes, they ride and drive(pull wagons, carts, carrages) them. I myself am an owner of a Belgian Draft, one of the starting Breeds for Clydesdales, and the ride is comfortable. Most of the stuff would be custom made at the time, Saddle and girth, no matter what horse because an improper fit would cause the horse back problems.
Just my 2 cents
Quote from: Farseer415In real life there is a breed of large horse called a Shire which was originally breed in England as a work horse. As for Clydesdales, yes they are large horses but they are definatly ridable. I have several friends that own clydes, they ride and drive(pull wagons, carts, carrages) them. I myself am an owner of a Belgian Draft, one of the starting Breeds for Clydesdales, and the ride is comfortable. Most of the stuff would be custom made at the time, Saddle and girth, no matter what horse because an improper fit would cause the horse back problems.
Just my 2 cents
I have seen several modern jousting groups use Belgians and Clydesdales, so they are certainly usable at least for an imitation of their original task. If one keeps in mind that they were probably more agile at the time, and less bulky, being bred for war, not for drawing, I don't see why some people have problems picturing them as war horses.
Well, consulting Avalanche Press's Noble Steeds: the Clyde is referred to as a "fierce and strong steed" and includes an anecdote about an unidentified king of England who passed a law outlawing the killing of Clydes in London in recognition of one which had carried him to victory in an equally unidentified war (I hate generic anecdotes like that). The text suggests that Clydes were preferred to Shires as steeds in warmer climates and Shires to Clydes in cooler climates.
I have no real idea of the scholarly quality of this text. It all sounds very documentaryish, but the credentials are sparse and no bibliography is given.
The text is credited to Ree Soesbee but there is no indication as to whether the expertise and research was hers, or if she merely drafted the document based on someone elses knowledge and research.
Take with hefty grain of salt.
I'll add the one note that I'm familiar with in this area. Look at the hooves of horses like Clydsdales and Percherons. Note how wide they are? Even though these are large horses, their hooves are disproportionaltely large.
What I recall hearing is that warhorses were bred this way for a number of reasons, not the least of which was stability on slippery or marshy terrain.
I personally think that the Clydesdale was a warhorse back in the day, but has simply been bred even larger than it was many centuries ago. So it's no longer really suitable. But one may be able to back extrapolate what a Clyde warhorse might have been like.
Also, it's of course impossible to be really sure on any of this as I'm also sure that the recordkeeping of the day wasn't as rigorous about breeds as it is today. So even where records are found it's not going to be easy to say with any certainty that what's listed as a Percheron in 1500 bears any resemblance to other Percheron's of the time, much less the Percherons of today.
Hey, given the links between Spain and the Holy Roman Empire, were Andalisians related to the modern day Lipizaners (or is the latter just a training definition)?
Mike
If draft horses where usesd as war horses, they would not be as they are today. Current day draft have be breed to be really docile, willing to do what ever is asked. Stallions are able to be worked next to mares in heat with no problem. Drafts now adays don't have much in the way of agility when compared to light breed horses. THey are kind of lumbering.
QuoteHey, given the links between Spain and the Holy Roman Empire, were Andalisians related to the modern day Lipizaners (or is the latter just a training definition)?
According to the Avalanche book, Lips are the last remaining example of the Andalusian and are close to the original bloodline.
Same caveat as before applies.
"I'd certainly believe it would be all but impossible to ride a Clydesdale with an American Saddle. But in an English saddle, and also in a knight's saddle, you ride in more of a seated position with the knees high. I suspect its quite possible with that sort of saddle."
I must correct you on your assertion that one rides with the knees "high" in a knightly saddle. On the contrary, one rides with the knees straight. The seat in American "Western" riding has more in common with knightly horsemanship than does modern "English" riding.
Quote from: Farseer415If draft horses where usesd as war horses, they would not be as they are today. Current day draft have be breed to be really docile, willing to do what ever is asked. Stallions are able to be worked next to mares in heat with no problem. Drafts now adays don't have much in the way of agility when compared to light breed horses. THey are kind of lumbering.
Two comments:
a)It depends on the type of drafts. As already pointed out, Frisians are used both for draft and for dressage, the latter certainly implying agility.
b)Warhorses need to focus their aggression on specific goals. They have to have a certain docility towards each other at the same time. Horses are flight animals, and it is unnatural for them to stand closely packed together. To keep a formation such as a conrois together at attack speed, a high degree of obedience on the side of the horse is required. Unbridled energy is the doom of every formation.
Quotea)It depends on the type of drafts. As already pointed out, Frisians are used both for draft and for dressage, the latter certainly implying agility.
Draft Horses: The word draft is an American term for the English word Draught, which relates to pulling power or traction power. Any horse in harness is a draught or draft horse.
(Draft Horses, an Owner's Manual. Beth Valentine, DVM, Phd and Michael Wildenstien, CJF)
I agree with you there. Any horse in a harness is considered a draft horse. This includes ponies. But most people when they hear draft horses automaticlly think of Budweiser and thier use of of Clydes. Clydes, Shires, Percherons, Belgians and more are considered heavy horses.
I also agree that Friesian where definatly used as war horses
I apologies to everyone if I seem to go on and on with my comments on this. As a new Horse owner (Belgian Draft) and a wife with horses (2 quarter horses) I have been trying to suck up all the information I can on horses. So feel free to tell me to shut up:)
Here is a link to the Percheron Horse Association of America. They breifly talk about the Percheron as a war horse and how it had change to pull wagons and carriages.[url]http://www.geocities.com/phaoa/
Farseer