Before I start I'd llike to point out the following:
I am a huge fan of TROS rules and it is the first game in 10 yrs that really got me excited about RPGs again (almost 20yrs of gaming background under my belt:-)
Although TROS rules make a fine balance between realistic/cinematic and offer plenty of tactical choices for the player there seems to be one big problem.
The rule need to be tweaked every now and then. Quite often IMHO.
See the threads about toughness, magic, spiritual attributes (who actually lets them refresh as in the rulebook? I guess most do not). Lets not even get to the combat rules here: They have been modified by almost everyone to their needs.
I understand that no game is perfect and rules need bending. I also understand that it is everyones own game and Jake actually encourages changing something that doesn't fit.
What do you guys think is this the mark of a very flexible system or is it in part due to game design flaws?
I see the same thing differently, I hated games that were too damn specific and include rules for every dumb eventuality, what I love about TROS is that it provides the greatest framework for any system I have ever seen and gives me the flexibility to say "that would not make sense here but its so similar to this other situation from page 32 that I will use that rule instead"
What I am saying is that it is a system that sucks for rules lawyers who need it all spelled out and in print but if you can deal with applying creative thought and common sense you can let the good times roll...
I let Spiritual Attributes refresh - the question is, when are they appropriate to use in the first place. I like the framework too but remember that with each sourcebook, there will be more rules and more details.
There is a page of compiled house rules somewhere. I think the link is available through the TROS webpage.
Brian.
I think Ashren is talking about rules-light versus rules-heavy. For an interesting looks at the extreme possibilities rules-lite, take a look at fudge (free download):
http://www.fudgerpg.com/fudge/
Another rules-lite game, which I think has one of the coolest skill systems I've seen (because it's so loose and free-form) is Lejendary Adventures (free quickstart guide to show the basics):
http://www.lejendary.com/la/template.php?page=home&style=blaze
After looking into Lejendary Adventures, I kind of like the TROS skill system in the free TROS quickstart better than the full rules, since it's more like Lejendary Adventures.
Rules lite is all about giving you a loose framework that lets you improvise. The opposite approach is something like D&D that spells out in tiny details what you're supposed to do in every situation. While it cuts out the improv work for you, one of the problems is that until you really master the rules you spend half the session digging through the book so that the players won't complain that you are being unfair. Rules-lite really depends on the players & DM trusting each other and being willing to accept decisions to keep the game moving.
First, I'd say that TROS doesn't really need House Rules or "common sense" adjustments to play out. It seems to work pretty damn well as written. Further, I'd say that the vast majority of other systems that exist out there need more adjustments than TROS does.
To be clear, I think that the modifications that you see here aren't at all neccessary for play to proceed well. Not at all. You can play the rules as writtten quite successfully. What's happening here is that you're seeing the exhuberance of players who are taking a game with a great baseline, and improving it in ways that suit their needs better. This should not be interpereted as the game being problematic, but rather one that's worth enough to be worth modifying.
Now, if the SA refresh rules were really broken, or somsuch, I wouldn't claim this. If, in fact, you had to modify the rules to have a chance of successful play, then I'd be right there with you saying that the mods people are proposing are a sign of a bad game. But that's simply not the case.
What you have here is a Ferrari that people are adding nitrous oxide to. A Ferrari doesn't need Nitrous to beat almost every other car out there, but....why not? We're just the sorts who like to tinker with success.
So, if you want a set of rules that works all in one place, play the TROS rules as written. If you want to join us in tinkering, and come up with your own version, feel free. But don't worry - either way your play is going to be great.
Mike
I'd also like to add that I play often enough, and I never really use any house rules, except to leave a few things out here or there for speed's sake. I think that Mike's right about "style of play." I get pages and pages of house rules for armor, moves, etc. from people all of the time, but I read them, say "cool," and move on. I've never used them--not because they're bad (some of them are quite good), but because I don't need them for the way I play. Even the house rules that I really like (such as the ST-TO only rule) I don't really use.
TFOB, for example, is going to have oodles of new combat rules...I'll probably only use a small percentage of them in my games, because my players aren't usually so combat-rule happy. On the other hand, I like knowing that they're there if I want them.
Jake
Quote from: VilleWhat do you guys think is this the mark of a very flexible system or is it in part due to game design flaws?
It's definitely the mark of a flexible design. This houseruling that occurs with TROS is also very prevalent in the Hârn community with the HârnMaster ruleset. Most everyone has a few houserules that were added to an already excellent design. In HM, there are people who have made whole websites dedicated to HM house rules, though they are anything but unsatisfied with the rules as they stand. I expect the same thing to happen with TROS over the long run as well. Heck, there are already fledgling "schools" of combat, favouring either agressive or defensive fighting and particular manoeuvers over others. IMO, it's the beginnings of a very prolific fan base that will only serve to strengthen TROS in the future.
-Mark