I was watching an episode of Conquest the other night in which they were showing the strengths and weaknesses of the axe in it's many forms. One of the strengths that they showed was the ability to break swords and cut the heads off of spears and such.
My question is four-fold...
How hard is this to do, apart from hitting a moving object in combat? I mean, could about anybody with enough skill to hit an opponent's arming sword break the blade? (note: I know that the quality of the blade would have something to do with it)
Has anyone done this in mock combat, sparring, etc?
Would it be possible to do with any other heavy or mass driven weapons? (ie: greatswords, glaives, etc)
How would you reflect this in TRoS? I was thinking for appropriate weapons a 2 die activation cost, and if successful, apply damage to the weapon as normal with consideration for the quality of the weapon, etc... but I'm not exactly sure how to do it.
Generally it's called a beat.
It's not too realistic thinking that you can break a weapon by attacking it in general, but it's possible. It's more likely to strike it from their hand than break it.
And it can be done with any weapon or lack thereof.
Quote from: CazIt's not too realistic thinking that you can break a weapon by attacking it in general, but it's possible. It's more likely to strike it from their hand than break it.
And it can be done with any weapon or lack thereof.
BL> Uhm... The "realism" entirely depends on the situation:
If the opponent has flexible, well-made sword in one hand you are absolutely right.
If the opponent's weapon is held in two hands, poorly made, or made of materials with a low resistance to shearing force (i.e. wood or bamboo) it is increasingly more likely to break rather than be disarmed. This can be useful at times (a beheaded spear is a staff -- a disarmed spear is a casualty.)
Contained in the answer above is the reason why striking to destroy a weapon is not included in the RoS system -- too complex. Perhaps we will see something in the Flower of Battle.
Until then, however, you can just use the same kludge that we do -- a beat with "sufficient margin success" (defined by the GM based on the weapons in question) can break a weapon. Once engaged in melee, you can try using a bind + strike instead of a beat, but it is less effective.
yrs--
--Ben
Yeah, I was speaking of, well, decent weapons hehe. If you want to attack some guys dry rotted pitchfork stave, just give it a toughness and improv "wound levels".
For said shody pitchfork stave, maybe toughness (or armour value, depending how you look at it) and wound levels like nicked, cracked, broken, smashed, shorn off, etc. Nothing complex about it, and easy enough to improv.
If you want to treat it a bit more like an attack than a beat, the defender can parry or void his weapon, same as always.
Cutting through the haft of a normal western weapon in decent condition is very unlikely though, unless you lay it on the ground and hack at it a few times. And that's not counting langets, suspension in the arms of an enemy, etc.
But hey, if you don't believe it, get a good strong treated ash stave, about 1 and 1/4" thick and try cutting or striking it
Quote from: CazBut hey, if you don't believe it, get a good strong treated ash stave, about 1 and 1/4" thick and try cutting or striking it
BL> I'm not talking about my ability to cut strong, treated wood with knives or swords. I'm talking about the ability, verified by military historians, for large, burly men wielding chopping weapons (such as doppelhanders and axes) to chop straight through the mass-produced pikes that were often given to footsoldiers.
Heck, the RoS book talks about the doppelhander's origin as an anti-pike weapon.
yrs--
--Ben
Hehe well if it says so in an rpg it must be true.....jk
Pikes are another matter, not exactly an agile weapon of great martial value to an individual. Sorry though, didn't know this was just about tips of pikes and big guys with big weapons.
I see the whole cutting heads off pikes with 2 handers a bit differently as well, but I won't get started.
It is a game, and weapons can be cut and shattered at the will of the gm.
Pikes I would give no defense to someone trying to attack them. At best I'd say a simultaneous attack vs. the guy attacking your pike would be the best idea, unless the guy would screw up his formation to try and wave that thing out of the way. Maybe make the anti pike guy make terrain rolls to properly attack them.
... of your thinking is to attack the weapon, in regards to swords, at least. If you are busy focusing upon attacking my sword, I will simply kill you. As while you are focusing upon my weapon, you are NOT focusing upon me. Whilst you are not focusing upon me, I will remove an arm, or a leg and then take your life at my leisure. All hypothectically, of course, as I really have no interest in killing somebody.
don't get me wrong... i don't think it's the best strategy in the world, i was just wondering if it could be done, and how to reflect it in-game
note: falling 7 feet onto the top of a brick wall sucks, bad.
Quote from: Draighdon't get me wrong... i don't think it's the best strategy in the world, i was just wondering if it could be done, and how to reflect it in-game
note: falling 7 feet onto the top of a brick wall sucks, bad.
I wasn't yelling, just letting you know what my $0.02 were on this. I asked the same question when I was a recruit to my Fechtschul and got basically the same answer. It is not really something that could be done, as the weapon's tensile strength is invariably stronger than our grip on the weapon. It might (big if) work against a badly damaged weapon, however. The trick is figuring out how badly damaged a man's weapon is in the heat of battle. For example, take one of those great flambards and hack at a pike being held by a pikeman, I am willing to bet you drag the pike out of his hands before you cut through it. Have a few dozen men with flambards attack a pike formation thus and I bet you have "broken" the pikes...
In regards to falling 7' on to a brick wall.... DUDE, what were doing? Hope your okay and such...
Salamander wrote:QuoteI wasn't yelling, just letting you know what my $0.02 were on this. I asked the same question when I was a recruit to my Fechtschul and got basically the same answer.
Noted, thanks :-)
As I chuckle at my own stupidity... We're remodeling our house, and my sister's stupid cat got stuck on the roof. I'm sure you get the picture from there, and I landed on my ribs... probably cracked one of them.
Soreness rules. :-D
Salamander's right. At least von Danzig and Meyer (Fencing Masters of the 1450s and 1570s, respectively) write about techniques to employ on those who "only fight your weapon and not the body". Mostly it comes down to this: The instant you go for the weapon, it can be withdrawn and an attack made, while you loose the initiative. A beat works, because you are out of range when it is applied.
Quote from: DraighSalamander wrote:
... We're remodeling our house, and my sister's stupid cat got stuck on the roof. I'm sure you get the picture from there, and I landed on my ribs... probably cracked one of them.
OUCH! Man, that's so hard. You ARE going to see a doc, aren't you?
Quote from: BirdManQuote from: DraighSalamander wrote:
... We're remodeling our house, and my sister's stupid cat got stuck on the roof. I'm sure you get the picture from there, and I landed on my ribs... probably cracked one of them.
OUCH!
Man, that's so hard. You ARE going to see a doc, aren't you?
Uh.... that was Draigh.... not me...
Yeah, he's right there... I'm the one who said it.
But, to answer your question.. No, I didn't go to the doctor, that would just be silly. (unlike trying to get the cat off the roof... that's pure genius)
I'm generally of the opinion that doctors are for pussies. Emergency rooms, however, kick much ass. Unless I'm running a high fever or have bones or other foreign objects protruding from my flesh, or can't stop the bleeding, etc. I don't go for outside help.
Okay, so back to the topic...
The general consensus is that attacking your opponent's weapon in hopes of breaking it will generally just get you stabbed, right?
Quote from: DraighOkay, so back to the topic...
The general consensus is that attacking your opponent's weapon in hopes of breaking it will generally just get you stabbed, right?
Yeah, stabbed or cut...
Quote from: SalamanderQuote from: DraighOkay, so back to the topic...
The general consensus is that attacking your opponent's weapon in hopes of breaking it will generally just get you stabbed, right?
Yeah, stabbed or cut...
That's not true.
You could get bashed... :-)
Brian (who's feeling pedantic today, it seems).
You could also get gnawed upon... If it were a Hef or some such beastie.
Let's not forget the gnashing of teeth.
mmmm, gnashing
Replying to a long-dead thread... oh, well -
I've practices Iaido (japanese sword fighting, ritualistic, not combat, but thus using actual swords) for a few years.
I very clearly remember my teacher telling us time and time again how a proper parry is made, namely so that the enemy weapon is deflected, not blocked. Blocking a weapon with your blade, according to him, does have a considerable chance of you ending up a) with a broken blade and b) with the enemy blade in you, minus whatever force breaking yours took off the swing, but still.
In TRoS, I would use this for fumbles on parry rolls.
This also leads to an answer to the original question: In a block, the opponent will hold the weapon still with strength. In a normal fight, weapons were often held fairly lose, to allow for more flexibility. I know this to be true for eastern swords, and I'm fairly sure about light european ones. I'm not sure about greatswords and doppelhanders, they may have been too heavy to allow for a light grip.
I don't know about a "light" grip, but a greatsword weighing in at 3.5 to 4.5 pounds just isn't that heavy. The grip is "flexible," I'd say, and never "tight."
Parrying with anything earlier than a smallsword is almost always "redirection," and never a "block," as a general rule.
Jake
I belive that Doplehanders/Zweihanders weren't used to cut the heads off of pikes, but rather to push the pointy ends aside to allow the weilder to close, at which point they could choke up to the ricasso and wreck havoc inside the formation. ONce you are past the point of a 20 foot pike there isn't much the guy holding it can do besides drop the pike and run. Even fighting at close range with an alternate weapon would be difficult because of how closely massed pike formations were.
Quote from: TashI belive that Doplehanders/Zweihanders weren't used to cut the heads off of pikes, but rather to push the pointy ends aside to allow the weilder to close, at which point they could choke up to the ricasso and wreck havoc inside the formation. ONce you are past the point of a 20 foot pike there isn't much the guy holding it can do besides drop the pike and run. Even fighting at close range with an alternate weapon would be difficult because of how closely massed pike formations were.
Which is pretty much what I said Tues. October 23rd, 2003...
I've alway thought that to give a better feel for combat against large/strong creatures, some adjustments should be made for things like parry, block, beat, etc.
Something along the lines that for every "x" amount of strength difference between two opponents, the block/parry of the weaker party has their TN raised by 1. What exact ratio would work, I don't know but I feel the idea is valid.
Although decreasing damage somewhat caused by high strength would be necassary, so strength is not the be-all end-all stat for combat.
One other comment - an attack on a weapon is more something that arises out of a moment of opportunity than a focused intentional tactic. For example, someone thrusts at your leg with a spear. In the evade/block attempt, you trap their spear. With the spear trapped, you break it. Spear was broken by an attempt on it, but it is not the primary focus of your attack. Weapons broken by attempted parries or blocks would be a seperate issue as well, as it is not a target of the attack but is damaged as a result of the attack.
I would think that with the exception of attacking the head of a weapon that is very long and used in formation (such as a pike) most of the times that a heavy axe-like weapon would break a sword would be upon a parry by the swordsman, not as the result of an intentional attack by the axe-wielder.
QuoteI would think that with the exception of attacking the head of a weapon that is very long and used in formation (such as a pike) most of the times that a heavy axe-like weapon would break a sword would be upon a parry by the swordsman, not as the result of an intentional attack by the axe-wielder.
I would agree for the most part, though I would include any long hafted weapon such as a pole-arm and a spear.
Another area is a swinging strike that strikes a strong rigid piece of armour, such as a helm.
When i said axe-like, i was including long hafted weapons like pole axes and halberds as well.