Does anyone out there have any ideas/know of any articles on designing a game system? I have 3 RPG worlds/ideas fleshed out etc. But im having REAL trouble working out what the attributes/dice system should be. Every time I start to think ive got a good idea it seems to collapse under its own stupidity :smile:
Its not the specifics im worried about, just how to work out what attributes should be worth/what values to give them etc.
Any help would be appreciated!
Hi there, and welcome to the Forge.
I'd like to be able to provide good answers to your question about design. It seems, though, as if you've already decided on a few things - the fact that you'll have both attributes and skills, for instance, and that they will be "worth" something (perhaps in character points of some kind?). These are big decisions. It might be worth backing up a little and perhaps comparing some existing systems across a variety of different approaches, then choosing your own system on the basis of some fundamental principles.
Here at the Forge, my big article "GNS and related matters" is a
very abstract set of ideas that includes a lot about game design. It might not be what you're looking for. A lot of people here have their own notions, too, some of which are pretty different from mine, and I'm sure they'll chime in, especially if you tell us a tad more about your settings.
Also, at
RPG.net there is a whole section about game design and a lot of articles. It's a very different sort of site, so you can decide which approach suits your needs better. Same goes for
The Gaming Outpost.
Again, let us know more. What sort of settings are they? No need to give away everything, just basics of some kind.
Best,
Ron
Hey, Spawny...nice to see you.
Umm, ditto what Ron said, 'cept for the RPG.net stuff because I know you came here from there because I told ya about the Forge (go me! more residuals!).
I'm actually planning to write my magnum opus on game design, entitled: "How to Design a Game." Here's the short version:
Designing a game, especially a roleplaying game, is extremely easy if you are a) extremely talented or b) extremely stupid.
Extremely talented people just do it, without much regard for the how's and why's -- the theory behind it.
Extremely stupid people do the exact same thing.
The difference of course is that stupid people rarely design a good game. Designing a good game is another thing entirely.
As for "what attributes/scores to give them" -- it doesn't really matter for the most part, unless you're worried about balance. What you need to determine is WHAT IS THE GAME ABOUT and HOW DOES THE GAME GO ABOUT THAT.
Answer those two questions and you could be the next Hardcoremoose or Zak Arntson (and stop blushing you two).
- J
_________________
jared a. sorensen / http://www.memento-mori.com
indie game design from beyond the grave
[ This Message was edited by: Jared A. Sorensen on 2001-12-21 22:36 ]
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On 2001-12-21 22:36, Jared A. Sorensen wrote:
Answer those two questions and you could be the next Hardcoremoose or Zak Arntson (and stop blushing you two).
Wheee!! I am blushing. And here's a link to my site:
Harlekin-Maus GamesHere's my method:
Brainstorm. Write out what your game consists of in the most abstract sense. Don't think along the lines of skill or attribute or character class lists (unless that's the focus of your game). You said that you had some ideas already? Great! Start from one of those. For example, I recently read some great books by Lawrence Watt-Evans, and I wanted to get to the theme of this. I wrote down little ideas like, "Fame = Trouble" and "Reward Practicality and Creativity over Heroism for the sake of Heroism."
Next, think about your game and the way you'd like to play it, and have other people play it. For my example game, it was simply, "Regular people thrust in fateful situations, where they use practical and creative means to get out. Fate tends to pay attention to those who stick their necks out in an obvious way, so encourage the "regular joe" thrust in terrible predicaments."
Read some RPGs that sound familiar or you'd like to steal ideas from (be sure to mention 'em in your credits!). For mine, it was Dying Earth, mostly.
Design your game. Know that this first design will either be brilliant and perfect, or suck. Most likely the latter. Anyhow, take your rules and remove everything that doesn't match your game. In my game, I initially had Skills. That didn't match. But some measure of your past should, since the Watt-Evans stories center around people's history and ambitions. So I changed Skills to be Path. And it's very, very broad. (If you put Rat-Catcher down, you can perform any skill related to that).
What else, um, keep doing this. Trimming and trimming. And come up with mechanics that fit your ideas. I felt that Fate needs to play a big part. So you can get bonus dice whenever you want, but the more bonus dice you have, the greater your chances of suffering unintended consequences (even on a successful roll!). This, to me, accurately reflected the fact that you can stick your neck out, and do heroic deeds, but Fate's much more likely to cut your head off!
I don't stop designing until the only mechanics there are support the game in its entirety.
Other things to mention ... try experimenting. Especially with concepts that may seem weird or uncomfortable. Like getting rid of Attributes. Or not using a separate set of mechanics for combat.
Anyhow, do this a bunch. Most of your games you won't want to follow through on. You can pour over my livejournal (www.livejournal.com/~zaka) and see half-finished and aborted games all over the place. Blech.
Good luck, and welcome to the Forge!
Wow...my name was invoked. I love that. :smile:
Sheesh, I don't know what to add at this point, as Zak and Jared seem to have it covered.
Absolutely, the most important thing, is to understand what your game is about. What do you want the players to do? Make sure your game not only facilitates that (i.e., allows them to do it), but actually encourages them to do it.
Attributes, Skills, and all that junk often boil down to the same thing, but check out some games (and some of the threads around here) for ideas on reward systems. Give the players what they want, and they'll give you what you want.
Do not include extra stuff that may dilute your intent or distract your players. If your games are not about combat, do not spend two-thirds of your page count detailing rules for it - your audience will think that you want them to go out and fight things (also, if you're game is not about combat, do not reward them for such behavior -see the rewards system thing I previously mentioned).
Don't be afraid to throw old assumptions out the window, or to try something entirely new. Every design has value, if only to provide you with something to build upon. We do this stuff first because we love it and secondly for the fame, glory, money, and women.
And to repeat the sage of advice of one Jared Sorensen, echoed just above by the near sage-like Zak Arnston, never add to something, always subtract. Strip it down to the essentials. Keep it lean and functional.
Have fun pouring over the forums...there's alot of good stuff here, from some very talented people. And if you want to post some specifics about your settings, I'm sure you'll get plenty of feedback from this rather opinionated group.
Take care,
Moose
Bloody hell, these are some great ideas, thanks guys!
I dont know that ill have skills/attributes or whatever, im trying to just find an easy system where you get a number and roll against it, but of course but you cant just do that as you want the players to feel like the characters they have are advancing in levels/experience and arent just static, it might work for a game world designed with that in mind, but mine are fantasy style d&d, post apocalypse and Sci-fi, and I dont know that it would work out for any of them other than the sci-fi one.
I figure im better off keeping it as simple as possible.
Maybe I should just flesh out the game world entirely and try working from there?
(Thanks for the welcome by the way :smile: )
Spawny,
Well, sure...players love to see their characters grow and change. Just make sure that you're giving them experience points (or whatever) for the right reasons. Check out Dying Earth, Sorcerer, and the discussion about stunt rewards in the RPG Theory forum for some cool ideas about reward systems.
And remember, characters don't have to get better to be dynamic. Take the recent obsession of fantasy fans, the The Fellowship of the Ring. Aragorn doesn't get better at anything per se, but he's hardly a static character. Change is as good as growth, if it suits what you're trying to do.
Just some ideas. I really have no idea what you're looking for, so take them at face value.
- Moose
Hi Spawny,
It might be helpful to recognize some of your own assumptions for what they are. Attributes, skills, and an improvement system that increases these numbers are not "baseline" for role-playing; one doesn't have to use them.
For instance, many of the games released in the last five years have indeed "just given the character a number," without regard to building it in the nature/nurture sense of attributes/skills. You should check out Over the Edge from the early 90s to see where it started, but you can also see versions of this idea in today's Hero Wars, The Dying Earth, and Zero. Two of these game systems were designed by the brilliant Robin Laws, and anything he's written is recommended.
You might also take a look at Fudge and, if you can find a copy, Castle Falkenstein. Or Paul Elliot's The Ladder, which is linked here in the Forge library. These use kind of a "stepped" system that doesn't even need to rate the character's features, just compares them to everyone else.
Now, it may be that you're not interested in anything quite so outlandish. We tend to get caught up in our perception of the Forge as avant-garde, but everyone here, including those who have published their games in book form, began their design career with some modification or streamlined version of AD&D or Champions. So - if attributes, skills, character points, and advantage/disadvantage balance are your current guiding principles, go for it!
Best,
Ron
Im trying to think of a way to show the characters are changing/advancing without all the bothersome statistics, as the main RPG im working on is VERY story driven and has a very detailed world, so I think people playing it will be more interested in exploring it than worrying too much about what level they are as the emphasis isnt on that at all! Im just trying to work out how to solve combat etc. As I didnt want a million statistics, and dont just want to pick arbitrary numbers for it.........
Hey Spawny,
I hate games with a million things to keep track of too. Assuming that you and I have certain likes and dislikes in common, I'll ramble on here for awhile about what I like. Take it for what it is worth...which is nothing if my previous assumption turns out to be incorrect.
You say your game is story-driven. What kinds of stories are you trying to tell? You also say the game is about exploring a highly detailed setting, but in-and-of itself, that is not a story. Stories (typically) have protagonists, and they are the most important people in the story. Are those the player characters? Stories involve a rise and fall of dramatic tension - victories, defeats, and reversals of fortune (both good and bad). Is this the sort of stuff you're looking for? Stories make a point - they have something to say, even if it's ridiculously frivolous. Does your game allow the players to make statements about things through their characters? Ultimately, stories have endings. RPGs are not often designed with such things in mind, but why not? Why does every game have to designed from the perspective that this game will be the game that is played on into infinity, when we all know that eventually we'll get bored with the campaign and it'll fizzle out? If it's really story-driven, it needs to facilitate the arc of a story - the beginning, the middle, and the end. Ironically, the fact that game play will eventually culminate in an ending fixes one of your stated problems - the problem of character advancement. When players realize they're not in it for the long haul, everything changes; they stop playing their cards close to their chest, they do things and take chances, and they're no longer worried about what skills they need to improve so that they can qualify for some special bonus at level 15.
What I describe above is not for everyone. It's not even always for me. But, I've discovered I really like those elements in a game, and maybe you will too.
The last bit I spoke about - the idea of closed story arcs - somewhat flies in the face of another of your stated goals, which is exploration. I guess you could explore things for short periods of time, but really the idea lends itself to a long term investment on the part of the players. Long term games, in my experience, make for sucky stories (mostly because these games have no direction, no goal, and often no closure - they tend to fizzle out before the most important part of the story - the climax). But I think it's possible to reach a compromise. Sorcerer & Sword strikes that bargain well by going somewhat the opposite direction of most game design; it proposes a deliberately sketchy setting, to be filled up and in by the players as their characters explore it. This is cool, because it ensures that the setting matters to the players, and facilitates the stories they are trying to tell. There are other games out there that take similar paths - Alyria (I think), Dying Earth, and Orkworld to name a few.
Of course, you can be story-driven and go the other way. Hero Wars [/1]does, and does so very well. The difference here, as I see it, is that you are not so much exploring that world as you are using its amazing detail to inspire new stories. I'm not a Hero Wars[/i} expert, though, so I should shut up about it.
That's about it. Take care.
- Moose
Well, the gameworld will be detailed and there will be many ideas for campaigns etc. But it is going to be left up to the players as to how they explore it and what they do. Actually, just now Ive gotten a good idea of something I should try, so Ill let you know if it works out :smile:
This thread is great! Such fantastic advice being doled out...I'm getting dizzy.
I'll kick the thing down a notch or two and spew out some of the things I've been noticing about how I go about game design.
I usually get an idea in the form of an image, a word, or a concept. I scribbled a pentagram in my sketchbook and started brainstorming an idea for a satanic game (but KILL PUPPIES FOR SATAN satisfied my needs pretty well so I abandoned it). I drew a cool looking logo that read "Hunter Raven" and was so inspired I wrote a slew of pages based on images conjured by that title. Now I'm working on a game that came about from the notion of players naming their own difficulty levels for all conflicts.
The Pool came out in a couple of hours after getting hit with the idea of gambling for story-power.
I've only been seriously looking at game design for less than a year, so I'm still exploring my approach and drinking in the advice of all these great creators around me (in cyberspace...of course). Its fun as hell.
So in short, what works for me is to let inspriation be the guide. When an idea comes you'll probably smile to yourself like a fox in the henhouse (I do). The First Idea is like a hole through muck. On the other side is a Fantastic Game. Keep looking at it. Like one of those optical illusion pictures with sailboats or whales in them, the picture will come into focus if you relax and let your eyes find it.
No, I never wrote for forutne cookie companies.
James V. West
http://www.geocities.com/randomordercreations/index.html
Well, ive come up with another idea as well thanks to this thread, its pretty much based on the old attributes/skills thing, but its quite easy for me to do, so Ill probably go with that unless this thread turns up any more ideas :smile:
Further to James' excellent response, here's some much more wishy-washy advice... I think of my style as 'hackish'. :smile:
Hackers write little bits of code here and there. One year, they might tie together a database in a neat way, the next year they might play with a chat program. They *play* with the code, and tend not to work on things that irritate them. It's often counterproductive.
Later, said hacker realises he needs this particularly elegant piece of code he wrote a year ago to go with something he just coded, so goes and finds it, nudges it slightly, and has made something substantial from disparate elements.
If whatever you're writing at the moment doesn't work, or has an element you're not sure of, it can sometimes help to leave it alone and let it stew. The half-dozen game settings I have in my brain at the moment are products of every RPG experience I've ever had. Some are based on bits of books I read a dozen years ago, plus things I read last week on these forums. =)
Joe.
Why'd you change your username? You'll never rack up enough posts to compete with the big boys that way. :smile:
Let's hear some of these ideas. You post 'em, and I guarantee someone will say something inspirational that pushes you even further down the road of genius. Hell, sometimes the people here have so many cool suggestions that you have to develop a new skill - how to know when enough is just right, and any more is too much. Yeah, Jared taught me that too.
Start with a setting, since that seems to be your focal point. What's first up for the Spawn-man?
- Moose
Well seeing as I just got a copy of the old RPG game The End, my post apocalypse one is getting all the attention now! Or more accurately, during apocaplypse, its an idea I got from a comic book (though GREATLY expanded upon and a lot changed, but thats where the initial "hey thats a good idea" came from)
Ill need some kind of rule system to show resourcefullness (is that a word even??? :smile: ) maybe weapon skills of some kind, driving ability, carpentry/welding skills, hunting etc. Basically all skills a good civilisation needs :smile:
Hey Spawn,
I just saw your post over at RPG.net about self-publishing. Are you getting any use out of the Publishing forum on this site? There's a lot of good information there.
I understand how you feel about your game. The End is a pretty cool game, although I could never really figure out what it wanted me to do. You probably have a better grasp on that than I did. But if you have cool post-apocalyptic roleplaying game that already meets your needs, why do you want to design a new one? I'd look for something that doesn't meet my needs and design a game about that.
Maybe the post-apocalyptic games out there don't meet your needs though. Most of them are about the same sort of thing - folks wandering around interacting with the hazardous environment, paying lip service to the idea that every day is a struggle to survive. Notably, Jared's octaNe takes a different approach, throwing away the notions of day-to-day survival, and instead focusing on the things that make post-apocalyptic movies and literature fun - namely, a lot of unapolegetic weirdness.
There are alot of things you can do with the post-apocalypse genre that haven't been done yet. What about a game where the system encourages players to round up survivors, found new communities, and begin the rebuilding process (I was actually working on this game, so I think it's a cool idea). I'm sure there are other themes that can be drawn from an end-of-the world setting, other than what we've been shown already. So what is it about this setting that you find so compelling? Just from reading your post, I'd say you have some interest in the rebuilding idea.
Take care,
Moose
[ This Message was edited by: hardcoremoose on 2001-12-24 11:11 ]
Hey Scott,
What about a game where the system encourages players to round up survivors, found new communities, and begin the rebuilding process
The Morrow Project paid lip-service to this idea, but emerged as mostly a combat game in actual play.
Paul
Well I think ill be staying away from the rpg.net forums as every time I make a post there I seem to get jumped on by a bunch of people for no reason other than I dont know everything and anything about all rpgs known in existence. Here is much nicer :smile:
I dont know if The End covers all that I wanted out of that kind of game, but the story is unbelieveably good, but like you said, im not sure exactly what you are supposed to DO in the game, but I think with a good GM who has a good story/adventure it would be fantastic. Apparently there were supposed to be some supplements for the game, which really would have helped, I dont know if they were released though.
The rpg I have in mind is more focused on rebuilding and protecting what you have and staying alive, because Earth ISNT a safe place to be during the apocalypse! :smile: Its basically a rebuild your homebase, explore from there, but return to your homebase after each adventure.
I have got an idea for a more freeform one, but I dont know that anyone other than a very good GM would be able to make it work.
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On 2001-12-24 17:34, Spawny wrote:
The rpg I have in mind is more focused on rebuilding and protecting what you have and staying alive, because Earth ISNT a safe place to be during the apocalypse! :) Its basically a rebuild your homebase, explore from there, but return to your homebase after each adventure.
This has tons of potential as a episodic game ... the players and GM (like suggested in Sword & Sorcery) could create the world as the game continues.
Now that you have your Premise: Rebuilding your own pocket of civilization in the ruins of apocalypse ... you can go on to work on the nitty gritty. I'll stick by my suggestion: Sloppy Brainstorming, Initial Mechanics, Super-duper Trimming.
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On 2001-12-24 18:02, Zak Arntson wrote:
This has tons of potential as a episodic game ... the players and GM (like suggested in Sword & Sorcery) could create the world as the game continues.
Yep, thats the idea, just give them the world basics, and see what they do with it! Obviously I'll have to find the balance between too much information stifling the exploring aspect and not enough information making for a boring world. I guess its better to err on the side of too much, at least then they could use the info. as jumping off points for further exploration.
What I think would be really cool for a game like that (and this is just me talking) would be rules for gathering followers to you. I mean, heck, the one thing you really need to rebuild civilization is people. I'd do something like Hero Wars does, where you can add followers to your character sheet, almost like extensions of your character. These followers would have skills that you could utilize, essential abilities to help your community grow and thrive. And if you weren't a good enough leader - if you didn't do the things necessary to protect them and allow them to prosper - then you'd lose followers to disease or accidental death or whatever.
Just an idea...
- Moose
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On 2001-12-25 10:28, hardcoremoose wrote:
What I think would be really cool for a game like that (and this is just me talking) would be rules for gathering followers to you. I mean, heck, the one thing you really need to rebuild civilization is people. I'd do something like Hero Wars does, where you can add followers to your character sheet, almost like extensions of your character. These followers would have skills that you could utilize, essential abilities to help your community grow and thrive. And if you weren't a good enough leader - if you didn't do the things necessary to protect them and allow them to prosper - then you'd lose followers to disease or accidental death or whatever.
Just an idea...
- Moose
Thats a damn good idea................. :smile:
Yep, excellent, Moose. Howsabout you play the whole settlment?
Hmmmm.... Tribe 13...
Lets say each character is an "Elder" or somesuch with some political sway over the community. As new folks are brought into the community they join under one player's faction or another. The "Adventures" in the game involve the GM setting up some opportunity, and the elders selecting "exploration parties" or "recruiting parties" whatever, composed of individuals from their factions.
Players then shift character from the planing stage to the execution stage and play their selected underling. This allows a player to play one character (the Elder) repeatedly, and stay involved in the high-level politics (unlike Tribe :cool:, and play as many other characters as they see fit during the different missions. It also means that character death is unwelcome, but does not mean elimination from the game. Just one less character (and, therefore, skill set) to rely upon in future missions.
Anyhow, the opportunity for intra-party conflict is rife. The pro-tech guys will try to bring back items of the predestruction civilization, while the anti-techs will try to destroy them first. The secretists will try to kep the settlement's existence low kwy, while expansionists will try to recruit everyone. You get the idea. Lots of tribal councils to determine the fate of retunrning party members who have assaulted their companions.
Nifty. BTW, FGU's Aftermath! was also generally about this topic, but generally deegenerated into accumulating the biggest junkpile possible.
Mike
Spawn, Mike...
Some cool ideas are springing up here. Now toss in some stuff about recruiting new people - finding them, saving them, and bringing them into your fold. The game should be about more than just interaction with a hostile environment; it should deal with interpersonal relationships, conflicts, and goals. Heck, that's probably your advancement/reward system right there - new people, with new skills and abilities = increased effectiveness within the game.
Skippy had an idea a while back that involved something similar...the idea of playing the leader of a group, where its individual members became your skill set and an extension of your primary character(so to speak). Maybe he has something cool to add to all of this.
Take care,
Moose
EXACTLY! Think about it, why do you need a skills advancement system when you can just have them search for a person that fits the bill for whatever skill they need? Easy!
Alternatively (meaning, another alternative to give to players in addition to finding new people with skills) would be to train members of your tribe as replacements. So the "Shaman" in the anti-tech group, or the mechanic in the tech group, etc. could have an apprentice. The apprentice, while still an apprentice, could never get better than his master, but at the same time would be EXTREMELY useful as a fallback, should the main skilled character die. Just an idea...
Daniel
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On 2001-12-26 02:13, archangel_2 wrote:
The apprentice, while still an apprentice, could never get better than his master, but at the same time would be EXTREMELY useful as a fallback, should the main skilled character die. Just an idea...
Excellent. Solves the problem of assassination, etc. So your lieutenant steps in when your character dies. One cool thing is that you could play the game kinda like Ars Magica where seasons and years may pass between "adventures". In that case characters might die of old age, etc. Would require lots of material for developing what happens during down times, and how well the settlement prospers, etc.
I can see cool campaigns centered around getting your settlement up to strength in time to resist an invasion by some mutant race (led by the obligatory cyber-sorcerer, or whatever). Lots of potential for diplomacy with other nearby settlemtns. Trade agreements. Lotsa good stuff.
Or perhaps the challenge is a disease instead. If the settlement does not have the resources to hole up or technology to fend off the disease they may be wiped out. Lots of long-term possibilities.
Personally, I'm seeing tribal storytellers recounting the tales of the village heroes as they went to the wastes or the ruins off the city to battle brigands and pollution to find treasures important to the settlements survivors. Y'know, all Road-Warrioresque.
Spawny, did you intend for the setting to be "hard" (Morrow Project, Aftermath!) or "soft" sci-fi (Gamma World, Metamorposis Alpha). That is, will the future be relatively realistic, or will it be full of mutants and psionics? If soft, which soft elements do you intend to include? Or do you have something special in mind?
Mike
Fairly realistic, slight mutations and so on, but no psionics or anything, also fairly standard weapons etc. as well, its a future that could actually happen basically, as opposed to an outlandish kinda scene.
Spawn,
My concept, briefly mentioned by Moose, was for a futuristic Bug-hunt type game, where the "Character" was actually a unit of 20 or so Marines. Depending on the type of unit, they added a skill, and a variable bonus to the combat effectiveness of the unit. E.g. a Medic might add +1 to combat, and grant the skill of Medicine. Infantry would add +3 to combat, and grant the skill of Heavy Weapons. It never really got past the initial development phase.
Now, if you are looking at building a civilization, you might define a loose group of 4 or 5 archetypes that can be key to your sucess. I'm reminded of the computer game, Lords of Magic, where you choose one of three types as your Lord. Don't know how close that is to this.
I like the idea of the group relationship. I like games that foster a strong cooperative spirit, even to the sharing of skills and abilities. I'm working on a Sacrifice method for a current project, that will allow a character to benefit the group through noble sacrifice, even outside of high dramatic moments. But I likes me drama, too.
I'm not sure if any of this helps.
Skippy
Yep everyones advice has helped a lot!