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Inactive Forums => The Riddle of Steel => Topic started by: jone on July 27, 2004, 11:58:28 AM



Title: Missile pool refreshing speed
Post by: jone on July 27, 2004, 11:58:28 AM
So, MP refreshes at speed of Wit MP in a round.

The refresh speed is always about your Wit, not about your skill..
An example:

We have a professional knife thrower, Nemo. Nemo has MP 19 and Wit 5. It takes him 4 rounds to get the maximum number of dice, which is pretty much for aiming a knife, IMO.

THis means that a newbie who has MP 7 and Wit 6 is better than Nemo at throwing knives quickly (1 round aiming).


Has anyone come to other solutions?


Title: missile pool refresh
Post by: Poleaxe on July 27, 2004, 01:40:51 PM
uhh...

you could try averaging your Wit and your missile Prof, then it's based on skill...

just of the top of my head...

-Alan


Title: Missile pool refresh
Post by: ultraviolet on July 27, 2004, 01:55:58 PM
I don't see a problem with the rules as they are. It means that a low MP will quickly get the best shot he's ever going to attain, no matter how much more he aims. A high MP means some rare and great skill to make even tricky shots, it takes a looong time to figure out all the variables in the equation and compensate for them, this more aiming time is needed to make the best shot possible with your high skill.


Title: Missile pool refreshing speed
Post by: Ashren Va'Hale on July 27, 2004, 01:56:31 PM
way I see it, that discrepancy makes perfect sense. I can have a lot of skill at throwing but not be able to do so fast, I might also be fast but not very good at throwing. I see the two as seperate issues that the rules account for well.

Its like sword fighting, you might have more skill but less physical acumen... the use of the reflex stat accounts for this well.


Title: Missile pool refreshing speed
Post by: Dain on July 27, 2004, 02:23:00 PM
There's been a ton of threads on this topic, and it never gets resolved...just a lot of suggestions for house rules. Basically people understand the quick versus accurate wit versus skill thing, but they get bent out of shape when thinking of a "gun fight". You've got Joe "Ninja" who's 30 and has been tossing shurikens since he was 4 years old on the west end of the street (MP 25 wit 4), and Lightning Frank "Picked up a knife for the first time yesterday" who's never actually tossed anything before in his life but has great stats that affect MP calculation (MP 6 Wit 6) on the east end of the street. Both draw and throw at the same time...Joe Ninja dies a hideous violent death and Frank limps away to get some light medical attention so he can go back to his job pumping gas.

I know I'm oversimplifying it, but I just want to paint a crystal clear picture of what people have a beef with because I think the point keeps getting missed. I'm not real thrilled with the concept of "my 26 years of training and muscle memory has no impact at all on my ability to rip off a halfway decent clean shot" versus "he never threw anything before in his life but creams me anyhow in a fight that isn't even close" myself. Not having actually been in a serious missile exchange yet in game play I haven't been burned on it yet, but I see it coming nonetheless.


Title: Missile pool refreshing speed
Post by: Dain on July 27, 2004, 02:29:43 PM
oh...suppose I should propose a house rule instead of just pointing out the problem...to me I'd say something like MP refreshes at (Wit + (Skill/5 round down)) instead of just Wit...or some such thing. Not a huge benefit, but enough to distinguish between a master and some untrained wank.


Title: Missile pool refreshing speed
Post by: Jaif on July 27, 2004, 06:24:54 PM
I like the rules the way they are.  In real life there's a part of aiming that's just plain natural talent, and a part that's skill.  I think aiming quickly leans more towards talent, so this setup works fine for me.  It may not be perfect, but it's a game.

Besides, wit should be important in a fight.  Dumb people die quickly in fights.

-Jeff

edit: if you really have to - just make the first bit of dice a function of skill, e.g. half your skill right away, then your wit per round until you fill up.  Then your 26 years of super-ninjitsu training will be of use in a shurikan showdown.


Title: Missile pool refreshing speed
Post by: Dain on July 27, 2004, 08:18:47 PM
*chuckle*...wait til you've been playing the same character for 3 or 4 years of real time and have grown really attached to it and someone rolls up a character with a higher wit than yours that kills your cherished character mercilessly in a missile duel 20 minutes after finishing roll up and see if you still like the rules the way they are. Betcha change your perspective a bit then.

Added Edit:
Not suggesting a character with years and years of familiarity and practice should have a huge advantage over someone whose never even picked up something to throw before, but I definitely am saying the untrained guy shouldn't have the auto win he has currently. If someone's been throwing for 20 years or more, they're not going to have exactly the same results they had the first day they ever threw something (which is the case if Wit is the only determination of refresh...assuming their Wit hasn't changed, then 20 years of practice later the character is neither faster nor more accurate than his first throw ever)....no, after 20 years of practice when they go to throw they're so familiar with the weight and balance that the knife or whatever practically leaps into their hand and gracefully auto launches...even if the thrower is the same slack jawed idiot he was 20 years ago. Just like every repetative process in the world, with repetition comes speed. Go check out a factory worker on an assembly line some time...their wit isn't a stitch higher than it was on day one, but their fingers fly now with inhuman speed and amazing accuracy...and they didn't have ANYWHERE near that speed or that accuracy on day one...and wit has very little to do with it as most of those jobs are mind numbing and a few of those people aren't exactly what you'd term "the fastest horse in the stable" in terms of wit.


Title: Missile pool refreshing speed
Post by: Brian Leybourne on July 27, 2004, 10:42:38 PM
IMO there's no such thing as an expert knife thrower (archer, whatever) who DOESN'T have a high Wit. One begets the other, it takes a high Wit to become such an expert, because without it you can't draw fast enough, it's self-proving.

Having said that, I am considering a skill-element for refreshes as well (just thinking through the permutations and math at the moment) for possible inclusion into TFOB as an optional rule.

Brian.


Title: Missile pool refreshing speed
Post by: Dain on July 27, 2004, 11:04:05 PM
I'd say I have to agree with you on that, but I also think the optional rule thing has a good chance of "fairing up the numbers" enough to pretty much make the recurring threads about missle pool refreshing concerns go away. Appologies to any toes I've stepped on if any...just stuck my nose in where it probably didn't belong in order to try to clarify a discussion I've seen go by multiple times now without diffinitive resolution...in hopes of clearing up the nature of the beef enough that a good solid solution would show up this time. Thanks Brian.


Title: Missile pool refreshing speed
Post by: jone on July 28, 2004, 02:03:24 AM
Ok, sounds good.

Anyway, the problem IMO is that it takes just as long time to aim at a target 200 meters away than a target in 10 meters..or even closer (f.ex. if we are talking about knife throwing).

It just feels pretty weird that it takes so much time to aim for 2-3 turns just to throw it at a human sized target 5 meters away. I've been throwing knives a little as a hobby, and I think you can really hit the target (at least human sized) really quickly (maybe 0-1s aiming), you just learn to do it by throwing enough..

Archers shooting at long ranges is a different thing.

One of my players happens to be a knife thrower, and that's why this subject has come in mind.


Thanks a lot for your answers, dudes.


Title: Missile pool refreshing speed
Post by: Mokkurkalfe on July 28, 2004, 11:26:15 AM
Quote from: jone
Ok, sounds good.

Anyway, the problem IMO is that it takes just as long time to aim at a target 200 meters away than a target in 10 meters..or even closer (f.ex. if we are talking about knife throwing).

It just feels pretty weird that it takes so much time to aim for 2-3 turns just to throw it at a human sized target 5 meters away. I've been throwing knives a little as a hobby, and I think you can really hit the target (at least human sized) really quickly (maybe 0-1s aiming), you just learn to do it by throwing enough..

Archers shooting at long ranges is a different thing.



In MY humble opinion, the problem lies in how damage is calculated. Because you don't have to aim 2-3 rounds to hit a human sized target 5 meters away. At 5 meters away, you have a ATN of 7 - 8 (can't remember right now) which is not that difficult to achieve with say, 4 dice. (edit: around 80% chance) If you want to hit at longer ranges, you'll need to aim more, because you got an ATN of 12+ or whatever.
Of course, you ain't gonna do much damage with one success only. And thats where the problem lies. The MoS should determine how close to your intended target you hit. Damage should be determined from the weapon's DR and where you actually hit.
I have no idea how to do this in an elegant way, though...

On the original topic:
As some other have said, I think this is solved by the fact that the attributes are not simply talents you're born with. They can be trained. Which is what any clever knife thrower will do; train up his Wit.
OTOH, I don't know if you can call spending SA's to "train". But hey, that's how you get your profencies, right?

If you're not happy with that, here's a clever house rule: The first round you get half your MP, the following rounds give you Wit dice as usual.


Title: Missile pool refreshing speed
Post by: Dain on July 28, 2004, 02:53:13 PM
Naw, doesn't work whenever MP/2 is less than Wit. Example MP 6, Wit 6. By existing system I start with 6 dice...with your suggestion I only get 3...thanks but no thanks. Even with MP 10 and Wit 6 I only get 5 instead of my 6. The house rule's worse than the existing design. And Wit being non-consistant in use doesn't feel like it makes sense either.


Title: Missile pool refreshing speed
Post by: Mokkurkalfe on July 28, 2004, 03:00:19 PM
Well, you could get either MP/2 OR Wit the first round, depending on what's the biggest.


Title: Missile pool refreshing speed
Post by: Dain on July 28, 2004, 03:07:46 PM
That would be better, but I'm betting Brian comes up with something a little more reflective of realism. He's pretty good at churning the numbers.

Oh, I agree with the 5 meter stuff...not sure about the one success thing though. One success plus damage rating is fairly nasty on an unarmored average toughness target. I do agree it probably has little effect on player characters though, as they usually have a great toughness and other protections, possibly including spells and armor.

The problem with training up stats is that in the real world people rarely improve their mental characteristics...pretty much what you're born with is pretty much it...you can over achieve and train yourself to get better results, but you're really still using what you had in the first place. Training up a skill feels more reflective of the real world process to me...but since stats are a part of the game system I can see your point too. Probably a flavor call as to which method makes more sense in practice.


Title: Missile pool refreshing speed
Post by: Turin on July 28, 2004, 08:17:10 PM
A think of wit and a refreshing MP is something similar to the veteran soldier who is cool under pressure and can get off a few shots while the rookie may even forget to take the safety off or something similar.

I would think your MP should refresh at (skill+wit+wit)/3.  Nemo them refreshes at 10 (a bit to high but certainly an unusual case).  But your newbie even though talented is a 6.  Makes sense to me.

Maybe Wit for missile fire should be calculated this way as opposed to making a seperate "refresh" stat.


Title: Missile pool refreshing speed
Post by: Claymore on July 28, 2004, 09:51:43 PM
I think the refresh rate could go up a bit, I mentioned this to Brian with some suggestions, and I know he had already been looking at this as well. Keep the comments coming!


Title: Missile pool refreshing speed
Post by: jone on July 29, 2004, 02:21:32 AM
Ok this is my opinion.

In the riddle of steel:

- You have to aim at least one turn (1-2s) (even though the "arrow is knocked" and ready)
- good shooters can be just as bad in quick fight than poor shooters (who just happens to have a high WIT score..Wit is often high because it's needed in melee fight too)


IMO it should be more like:

- You can shoot immediately as the the arrow is ready to go and dont need to spend any time in aiming. Of course, sucks a lot at longer distances but could be enough to hit a target in 1-20 meters.

- The first (and maybe second) round of aiming is the most important. At least with firearms, I can shoot very accurately after just a couple of seconds of aiming...


I just don't know how to put this in rules...

Any archers here? Knife throwers? Any opinions? Ideas?


Title: Missile pool refreshing speed
Post by: jone on July 29, 2004, 04:53:43 AM
Hmm.

Should the refresh time depend also on the weapon being used? I mean, you really do not use much time when aiming with a throwing knife or throwing spear (or in fact throwing anything)... but with a bow you certainly do. Are crossbows maybe quicker than bows (when talking about the actual aiming)?

Or, could a good shooter/thrower maybe pay some activation costs for faster aiming?


Title: Missile pool refreshing speed
Post by: Deliverator on July 29, 2004, 08:00:26 AM
Hi.  I have been talking with a friend who is an expert archer, a roleplayer, and in fact a mathematician and computer scientist (so he understands dice mechanics pretty well!).  We had a reasonably lengthy conversation, but the gist of it is, his opinion is that refresh rate should go up for a better archer.

As for other weapons, I'm not sure.  I do feel that for ease of play it's probably best to stick with one mechanic.

Matt


Title: Missile pool refreshing speed
Post by: Turin on July 29, 2004, 08:38:27 AM
Jone wrote:

Quote
- good shooters can be just as bad in quick fight than poor shooters (who just happens to have a high WIT score..Wit is often high because it's needed in melee fight too)


I think the question is one, what is wit and skill level trying to define, game stats to real world?

Is wit someones "quick thinking ability"? If so, I think this is not a set stat, but definitely improvable, and I think your stat for "wit" would improve for s specific skill as you skill improved.

I have shot an M16, and practiced archery.  Tried skeet shooting with a shotgun a few years ago, and I was having a problem targeting the bird quick enough, before it flew into less effective range.  After a few more "shoots", I target it much quicker.  The people I was shooting with were able to target it much quicker than I, having practiced, though their "wit" score was not higher than mine IMO, as I could kill them in raquetball or other similar things, though not shooting a shotgun.

A high skill level would also indicate an ability to target quicker IMO.  On the other hand, TROS (or any system I am aware of) does not differentiate between the competition shooting type skill, and a accurate shooting quick thinking combat veteran.  Both are represented in the same way, so you have to work with this abstraction when determining what high "wit" and skill mean.


Title: missile pool refresh
Post by: Poleaxe on July 29, 2004, 09:14:29 AM
as far as what wit really "is" (depends on the definition of "is" heh heh)

Quote

The people I was shooting with were able to target it much quicker than I, having practiced, though their "wit" score was not higher than mine IMO, as I could kill them in raquetball or other similar things, though not shooting a shotgun.


I think the statement defines what most of us think of as Wit and the general role of attributes.

That being the case, I think that sometimes TROS in certain instances puts too much emphasis on Attributes rather than specific skills.  It all depends on your philosophy about "reality" and the kind of mechanic you want to use in game.

I am a believer in Skill specificity rather than a general attribute to explain how a person can be good and improve at a particular task or many tasks.  That being the case, I prefer system mechanics that favor higher skill rather than jacked up attributes.  To me, it's just more realistic.  There are many super agile, really smart, high wit people etc. people out there.  More so than me.  However, many more agile people than me can't attack or block as many times as I can in a sparring match or fight, many more fit people will tire faster than me in a sparring match or fight because I know how to breathe, many "wittier" people would probably bomb worse than me at improvised comedy onstage, etc.

TROS is mostly fine, but sometimes (like in this case) we (those of us who are with me) need to change the mechanics for certain situations to favor more skilled individuals rather "high attribute" individuals.

Did I make sense?

-Alan


Title: Missile pool refreshing speed
Post by: jone on July 29, 2004, 12:05:31 PM
Hmmm about "what is Wit?"

Wit affects many things in tros, both melee and ranged combat and many skill throws. If we say a good archer should have a high Wit, it also means that he is better in many skills and in melee fighting.. and I don't think knowing how to aim really improves your melee fighting skills.

Baaaahh, I just still don't have any nice suggestions "how to change the system" :-)


Title: Missile pool refreshing speed
Post by: Dain on July 29, 2004, 04:11:51 PM
Actually what I think they were going for with wit was something halfway between perception and reflex....kindof a "reaction" stat. I think it was intended to reflect "how quickly one gathers one's self and adjusts to a unexpected situation or a rapidly changing situation". The higher your wit the quicker you recover from surprise and the faster you think on your feet...you don't necessarily think smarter...just faster. The guy with the low wit is the one that stands dumbfounded for a second and feels like he's moving in slow motion after that when something big and nasty jumps out of his palace jacuzzi, dripping blood from it's gullet...the guy with the high wit's feet move like road runner's right after it jumps out, does a dive and roll and comes up with whatever makeshift weapon was in reach. Both guys left equal brown stains in their swim trunks...it's just that the second guy didn't get eaten quite as soon as the first guy, and maybe even got in a few licks of his own before having his throat torn out.

That's my (graphic) 2 cents worth on it anyhow...and I could be horribly wrong.


Title: Missile pool refreshing speed
Post by: Brian Leybourne on July 29, 2004, 04:42:01 PM
Uh, you guys do know that you can fire with no aiming time right? (You're all talking like you don't, maybe this needs to be better clarified in TFOB).

Pool refresh happens at the START of each round (note - archery rounds are 1 second, so they're actually exchanges in a melee sense, this will be well described in TFOB, I have already written that part in fact) and not at the end of the round.

So as soon as I have the arrow nocked, the first second I can fire it because I have refreshed my Wit in MP dice for that second. If I don't fire that very first second, I can fire the next second and I by then have wit*2, etc.

And so on. It's not "wait a second then get one refresh, wait another second and get another". It's "the first second I have one refresh, the next second I have another and so on".

A fine but very important point.

Brian.


Title: Missile pool refreshing speed
Post by: Deliverator on July 29, 2004, 04:42:33 PM
Quote from: jone
Baaaahh, I just still don't have any nice suggestions "how to change the system" :-)


Well, it certainly seems to me that adding a fraction of your Proficiency to Wit score for the purposes of filling your Missile Pool is a reasonable solution.

I'm thinking 1/4:

4 = beginner, but still able to aim faster than an untrained person
8 = veteran
12 = master
16 = stupendous man!

Matt


Title: Missile pool refreshing speed
Post by: Dain on July 29, 2004, 05:18:15 PM
Hey Brian,

I can't speak for others here, but yes, I for one knew the refresh at start of missile round and that there are two missile rounds per one melee round from you yourself mentioning it in at least one other thread, and maybe more if I recall as there's been a lot of threads on this topic. Even considering that, I think the points being made are pretty much all still valid and aren't diminished at all when you think of missile guy versus missile guy (duel). You only refresh once to his once...not twice...because you're both doing missiles. That leaves all the math and speed due to skill arguments listed here pretty much completely intact, valid, relevant, and mortally important to those involved. My posts here were assuming missile versus missile (up until the what is wit post anyhow). I think that's where people are coming from here anyhow...correct me if I'm wrong.


Title: Missile pool refreshing speed
Post by: jone on July 30, 2004, 12:22:05 AM
I still think that either range or the weapon used should affect the aiming time.. If you're throwing a knife/dagger/rock/whatever, you really don't spend much time in aiming (1-2 secs max, imo)... and this is because you throw always at close ranges.


Title: Missile pool refreshing speed
Post by: Darcy Burgess on July 30, 2004, 06:10:35 AM
my own .02 --

to keep things simple, just allow a  percentage bonus to refresh on the first round of missile fire -- everyone's a little steadier, as the arrows haven't started flying yet, and everyone knows where their target is.

obviously, your skill is still your cap -- so this will hamper low-skill/high-wit characters.

eg (using 100% bonus for ease of math):
wit 5 skill 6, first round 6 dice.
wit 4 skill 15, first round 8 dice.

personally, I agree with Brian -- you shouldn't call yourself a master archer unless you've got a better-than-ok wit.

otherwise, spend your time on the tournament circuit and stay off the battlefield.


Title: Missile pool refreshing speed
Post by: Vagabond Elf on July 30, 2004, 11:41:47 AM
Jone, range comes into it by the fact that you need less dice at short ranges as your TNs are lower.  So one or two seconds of refresh is more than enough.

For a longer ranged shot you want more dice to compensate for the higher TN and so you aim longer.