In the thread linked to here (http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?p=132788#132788) the question was raised about how to assign abilities to the Common Magic keyword. We all know that heroes with the keyword start off with five abilites associated with it. I have a further interest in this and how common magic religions relate to the CM keyword, hence this discussion.
The previous quotes may not use the following, but for ease going forward, I'm going to make some assumptions about abreviations to make this go faster:
CM - Common Magic
CMR - Common Magic Religion
SM - Specialized Magic
K - Keyword
The latter combines with the others, so a character's Common Magic (CM)abilities all go in the Common Magic Keyword (CMK).
The following continues the pertinent parts of the discussion from the previous thread:
QuoteQuote from: Mike HolmesFor example, if one has a common magic religion as part of their homeland keyword, I think that the rules as they've been explained to me would indicate that this doesn't "cost" anything. That is, it's not the same as having a common magic keyword.
I'd like to see a rules citation as a basis for this. Or at least, a slightly more specific appeal to authority.
Again, this is from Roderick Robinson's reply to my earlier queries. Given that he's the authority on the rules list where I got the reply (if I understand correctly), this is the most authoritative source I have. Rory, if you're out there, or if sombody who has read those clarifications and has a better idea of what he was saying is, I'd appreciate any clarifications as to my interpretation of what was said in that thread.
In any case, if he's not right, or an authority, or I'm just misreading him, then there's a lot that's still ambiguous with the rules that needs ironing out. The question isn't whether or not the character gets a CMK when they indicate that they are a member of a CMR, I assume that they would normally. The question is whether or not the CMRK counts against the limit of one SMK.
QuoteQuoteTo be more precise, if the narrator dissallowed the player having a character with both kinds of keywords by the rules on P 18, then the player could still take the common magic religion offered by his homeland. Those skills and all would still be available. Just not the common magic itself such as would be under the CM keyword.
Note, however, that with about 1.5 exceptions, the CMRs listed in the "Homelands" section _do not have_ any listed 'skills and all' type of abilities, other than CM magical abilities themselves. (And the ones that do, very much smack of 'specialised religions by other means'.)
Yes, this is exactly the problem that I have with the ruling. Basically some homelands become more attractive than others.
Rory said it should be obvious which count as part of the homeland keyword, and which do not (I was refered to something like the duck test), but I find it far from obvious. Right now, the part that seems most likely to be the "obvious" part is the designation between those listed under the keyword as CMRs, and those that are not. This is certainly simple, but not at all clear to me. In any case, Rory never confirmed that suspicion. Though somebody, Bryan maybe, seemed to think it was the case.
Anyhow, I agree that this is crazy confusing, because I had assumed that specialized and common in terms of religion were mutually exclusive. That there were "Specialized Magic Religions" when in fact, there are only SMK that relate to Religion keywords. What I will say is that the ruling is consistent and easy to apply. Whether or not it makes sense intuitively or has other problems associated with it.
Which is to say that it's not broken, but I won't play with it, personally.
QuoteQuoteOTOH, if the ability were not part an offered common magic religion for the homeland keyword, but taken instead using profession as a rationale, Lanbril for example in many places, then that counts as the character's one specialized magic keyword. Thus one can't be an Initiate of some other god, and have the Lanbril CMR keyword to start.
Personally it strikes me as considerably less tortuous to simply say Lanbril is a "specialised religion that teaches common magic", or more to the point, just a 'religion' that does so, and boot the distinction for all purposes.
Absolutely simpler. In any case, the question is not whether or not Lanbril is a "specialized religion" (or more importantly counts against the Specialized Magic Keyword limit), but whether Imarja is. The clarification indicates that it's not, and that all Esrolians should get it for free if they like as part of they homeland keyword. This was specifically indicated. Or, rather, maybe Imarja is a specialized magic keyword, but just doesn't count against the limit because of the homeland association?
QuoteQuoteThe clarification I don't like, is calling a common magic religion keyword a speicalized magic keyword. Not only is if potentially confusing (I thought these were mutually exclusive for a long time), but it's an exception to the pattern again.
To what pattern?
The pattern of having religion keywords associated with certain SMK, as opposed to counting as the SMK, themselves. If it followed the pattern, then the CMRK is just the religion keyword, and CM is it's associated SMK. Put it this way, you put all of the magic abilities garnered from the CMRK into the CMK, right (or wrong)? So in this case what's counting against your SMK is a bunch of mundane abilities. The parallels of which for homeland associated CMRK do not. Seems very odd.
QuoteQuoteGiven that set up and how the CM keyword abilities are constructed, I'd rule that in fact, CM represented general facility with the magic of the mundane world, and allow new abilities to be added at keyword level.
This of course means that your test as to the 'appropriateness' of something for inclusion in a common magic keyword now involves a cosmological criterion, rather than a game-mechanical one (feats, etc, vs talents, as per the concentration rule), or of character logic. It's also essentially using the logic that the CM keyword is some sort of 'big ability', rather than the usual pattern of a keyword, in a way that HQ doesn't really provide supporting machinery for. And doesn't this get us back to 'mix and match' common magic?
I was never trying to get away from Mix and Match, I personally don't have a problem with that. In fact, as a specific and explicit exception to the normal pattern I think it provides interest to the CM option, and balances it against the other forms.
In any case, I think that all of the religion stucture rules have to be predicated on "cosmological" criteria. Else why have the differences at all? They exist to show how the belief structures themselves affect what a character is capable of. In any case, I don't see how it violates character logic. That is, if the idea is that anybody can pick up common magic from just about anywhere, then why doesn't it make sense to allow "mix and match"? Or is your argument that the rules as they exist do so to support the mechanical ideal of allowing some random magical abilities for each character? I'm not getting it.
Yeah, it would be a "big" ability, I suppose, but that's what keywords are, IMO. In this case, the keyword just means "All common magic abilities."
OK, that all behind, the basic questions are:
[list=1]
- Which of the following is true?
- CMRK "cost" your SMK slot.
- CMRK are always a part of your homeland keyword, and always free.
- CMRK cost the SMK slot if they aren't listed specifically in the homeland, but are free if they are.[/list:u]
- If the first above is true, what if players declare that they follow a CMR that has no associated CMRK?
- If the second or third option is true, then doesn't this make some homelands more attractive than others in terms of having CMRK availaible for free in addition to everything else that you get with homelands (including the religion keyword)? Is it a big deal?
- If you have a CMRK that counts against the SMK limit, why don't the magic abilities in question default to that keyword's level instead of the CMK (like they would for an initiate or something)? Or do you think they do?
- What level do magical abilities start at when added to a SMK, keyword level or 13 (or something else)? That is, adding affinities to a keyword (is this possible), adding Grimiores to a keyword (I assume this is possible, but could be very wrong), or adding relationships with spirits of the same practice to the practice keyword. Is this different for the CMK?
- Given the answers to the questions above, assuming that the CMK contains all of the abilities that come from all CM sources, then what happens if/when the CMK is raised due to advanced experience? I would assume at chargen that the five abilities would be raised to the appropriate level, but what about during the game per the Saga System or something?
- Put another way, is there any use for the CMK after chargen? If not, then why do we bother listing it (it's on every character sheet I've ever seen)?
[/list:o]
Alex's responses will be, of course, appreciated, but I'd also like to hear from anyone with an opinion, or the ability to clarify any of this for me. Again, I fully admit that it may just be some bad reading or reasoning on my part that has me seeing a problem at all. That is there may be some really simple solution here that I'm just not seeing.
Mike
Hey Mike,
Now that I've stopped travelling for a while, I can read this forum again. And post. And start my game. :)
Did you ever get a response for this anywhere? Because now that I'm actually walking players through chargen, I have to admit this is a REALLY confusing point. Luckily, only one of the players has a character for whom magic is really of any direct importance, so they've mostly slid by the question, but the whole thing seems very vague to me.
I never did get any response. I figured that, again, I was just somehow making things more complicated than they needed to be somehow, and that people didn't want to encourage me. More or less.
I hope that I haven't confused you unneccessarily. That is, I hope that it really is as vague as we seem to think. Rather, I hope that somebody can tell me that I am making it more complicated than it needs to be somehow. Or, barring that, that they can make sense of my questions.
Mike
I have the feeling that for the moment I will do it on a case by case basis, and if it suddenly snaps into place in some way, I'll tell you. :)
Fortunately for me, playing in a different setting, making an adjustment to this was easy. The setting I'm in isn't so realistically (or even hyper-realistically) detailed as Glorantha, so I've just sidestepped the problem by saying that religions are religions - they all can provide either common magic, or specialized magic, depending on the nature of the cult in question. Most do both.
I've also ruled that you can either have common magic, or a specialized magic keyword, but not both. Interestingly, a couple of players have decided that they don't know any magic keyword at all, instead focusing on the mundane facets of their lives.
But I have played in Glorantha, and I'd like to understand the ideas behind how it works. Not just to understand Glorantha, but to allow for a better informed adjustment of the rules.
Mike
Hello,
I hate Common Magic. It's a huge pain in the ass. I suppose I'll draw all sorts of surprised defiance at saying that Hero Wars was simply way easier when it came to keywords and setting up plain old characters to play.
I may be wrong, but at present I blame the spectre of old-school RuneQuest, whose fans probably wailed like banshees, "Wherrrrrre's my Spirit Magic?" and cited the long-standing quote from Stafford that all of Glorantha is magical all the time.
Crap. Why not just take an Ability, "Nifty magic spoo thing," with a neat general effect, and have done? Save the keywords for the really rich stuff.
Almost the same goes for "Concentrating." Geez Louise.
Best,
Ron
I agree with you, Ron, that certain of these elements exist to address a certain agenda. But I happen to be on board with that agenda to some extent. That is, I could play your version of the game, and probably have fun. But I'm still interested in exploring that other agenda here.
At the very least, I'd like to know the answers to this particular question for "historical" reasons. To best understand the intent of the game, whether I agree with it or not.
Mike
Wow do I not like Common Magic either.
I kind of think, in theory, there's a neat idea here. There's lots of magic that is easily available, and you can get at it without going to the higher mysteries of the religion.
But mechanically, it's a confusing mess, as Mike has pointed out. In making characters, I've found I don't like using Common Magic as a "keyword". It's a label. Name your magic effects, and they aren't active.
I realize that the 3 worlds idea is part and parcel of Glorantha, and therefore that's the reason for concentration, but that annoys me to. Especially since as we go on it seems that there are more and more exceptions to concentration. (Lunar magic, Lanbril magic, etc.)
So I'm thinking of allowing a religion keyword but not magic ones. And I would allow concentration along religious lines (so common magic religions can use it) with the limitation that anything outside of the religion messes with the concentration.
But really, it's sort of messed up. (I don't have first edition hero wars, so I can't speak on that. What was different? I know there was Mysticism, which I have been scolded on the mailing list for bringing up as a possible 4th magic system, despite refrences to it still existing in Hero Quest.)
I'll confess that I'm not a fan of either common magic or the 3 otherworlds eithet, and by corollary the idea of concentrating magic. Fortunately, these are very Gloranthan concepts, and in Mythic Russia it is both faithful to the milieu and also IMO more fun to ditch the lot of them. And yes, individual Weird Magical Powers taken as standalone abilities are much more the order of the day for full-blown heroes.
All the best
Mark
Odd, I find myself in the odd position of being the only defender of rules that support Glorantha.
Generally, we've made the point that one can do without the things that confuse us about Common Magic. The original question still stands, however, can sense be made of Common Magic as written? If so, how?
Mike
I think Common Magic as written is an ad hoc category and shouldn't have the term "keyword". You have 5 abilities at 17.
I would allow a keyword approach for a common magic religion if someone wanted to take one. (since it would include piety and knowledge and such).
Yeah, it's a cop out. :)
Not a cop out, that might be the most valid interpretation.
The question that remains with that version is whether or not that common magic keyword should count as something in terms of chargen. That is, can you just take all the common magic religion keywords that you like, or does it substitute for something else?
Or does it have it's own limits? Some people have suggested that they are extra, and that the player should be limited to two.
One of the most interesting things here is that in the costs to join a common magic religion, it's free, but apparently you get nothing. It says that all abilities must be bought separately. Leaving you wonder just what joining did for you - you have no relationship to the supernatural forces, no piety, no relationship to anyone in the religion, no magic, nothing. So what does joining mean?
Mike
I've just had a discussion with a little bird, and here are the clarifications that I have so far. Enlightening, IMO.
Quote from: Myself
Which of the following is true?
- CMRK "cost" your SMK slot.
- CMRK are always a part of your homeland keyword, and always free.
- CMRK cost the SMK slot if they aren't listed specifically in the homeland, but are free if they are.[/list:u]
The answer is, none of the above. CMR are simply free for anyone to take. Of course they're limited by whether or not their religions are contrary and the like, but they don't have any cost. You can take as many as you like in theory.
It should also be noted that I've discovered that the design intent is that one can only belong to one "overall" religion. This means, essentially, all of the smaller religious divisions that a culture has. For example, in many cases if the culture has an animist tradition, and a pantheon as well, these are both part of the same overall religion. As well as any common magic religions listed as being accepted as part of the overall religion.
So, this does leave one with some lattitude inside the culture, but the idea was supposed to be that one couldn't have two religion keywords, from different cultures. This is not expressly prevented by rule, but, again, was the design intent. If/when sombody joins another religion, they may retain some of their abilities from the old religion, but may lose others.
A suggested guidline is that one should be charged a 10% of their time for each CMR that they have.
Quote- What level do magical abilities start at when added to a SMK, keyword level or 13 (or something else)? That is, adding affinities to a keyword (is this possible), adding Grimiores to a keyword (I assume this is possible, but could be very wrong), or adding relationships with spirits of the same practice to the practice keyword. Is this different for the CMK?
When one takes a CMR, one gets no magic from it, per se. If one takes common magic from a any CMR, whether a member or not, they put it in the CMK. In this way, CMRs do follow the "pattern" of other religions.
Quote- Given the answers to the questions above, assuming that the CMK contains all of the abilities that come from all CM sources, then what happens if/when the CMK is raised due to advanced experience? I would assume at chargen that the five abilities would be raised to the appropriate level, but what about during the game per the Saga System or something?
First, not only the five abilities that one start with go in the CMK, but any others taken go there as well. I should have gotten this, because the listing in the costs says "Add common magic ability to common magic keyword" and does not indicate a level. The proscription of 5 starting is what you get for free with the keyword, and not a limit. If you get any later, then they all start at the level of the CMK.
Quote- Put another way, is there any use for the CMK after chargen? If not, then why do we bother listing it (it's on every character sheet I've ever seen)?
This question is now moot. If one raises the CMK level, all the common magic abilities contained also go up.
This is all internally consistent. I think that it might tend to get people grabbing for all the CMRs they can find, few are going to not have the room, even with the guideline above to have all the keywords that they can reasonably stuff in there.
I'm not sure it needs a rule, however, to prevent abuse or not.
Mike
I agree with Ron. In some ways I am a Hero Wars grognard, mostly running stuff from the rules synopsis from the HW deluxe set. I think Heroquest has not added much to my games because of these complicated issues. I do not like the points based chargen, the priority given to keywords (17) over narrative generated abilities (13 - hardly worth writing the 100words for). I do not think the otherwords have been explained any better, and common magic, although a nice idea, is really confusing to everyone, as witnessed by this, and many other threads.
I think the basic design, of drama driven mechanics, has been ignored in order to add these extra complications to it. All the different HP costs, for example, would have been neater (IMO) by making misapplied magic just 'difficult' magic, for example, or with higher resistance to getting to the otherworld.
Ron:
QuoteI hate Common Magic. It's a huge pain in the ass. I suppose I'll draw all sorts of surprised defiance at saying that Hero Wars was simply way easier when it came to keywords and setting up plain old characters to play.
I guess I am not helping Mike with his queries. If I were not a Glorantha obsessive, but were running HeroQuest, I would drop the magic system set up entirely. As it is I have a lot of house rules that reduce the keyword mania induced by the chargen and multiple auto augments
Keith
I do think that some of it is potentially problematic, and I certainly agree that it could be simplified without losing a whole lot, if anything.
But, again, I like the structure. Applying it to worlds other than Glorantha, has made those world's come to life in a way that's hard to explain unless you've seen it. That is, much of the extra sim-sounding stuff, when applied to "converting" a world, cause changes to occur that not only add sim depth, but create a framework that allows for thematic development over them as well, IMO.
I'm not saying that one can't throw some of this out and play successfully. I am saying that I'm interested in investigating just which parts of HQ do have a positive impact in this process, and I'm not throwing anything out without looking at it closely. The point of the thread is to get at the basline so that I can look at it closely.
Mike
Quote from: Ron EdwardsHello,
I may be wrong, but at present I blame the spectre of old-school RuneQuest, whose fans probably wailed like banshees, "Wherrrrrre's my Spirit Magic?" and cited the long-standing quote from Stafford that all of Glorantha is magical all the time.
Trouble is that it seems to be important to Greg's vision of Glorantha, but the reasons for that part of the vision, other than 'it is so' has not been clearly set out. Some comments on lists lead me to guess that it will be important in the Hero Wars when the distinctions are cirumvented.
A few points for anyone who is not clear (not aimed at Ron who I suspect gets this). Check out HQ p.104-5 again as well.
The important distinction about common magic is that it has no Otherworld. All the specialized magics come from the Otherworld. Thus though all kinds of magic can have religion only those that are specialized intercede with deities, common religions don't (though they might claim a philosophy or divine purpose).
Common magic that comes from this world is talents. Everyone can do this. Common religions also offer feats, spells, and charms from Otherworld entities resident in this world (so effectively demons in popular terminology). So joining a religion gives you access to the powers of these petty entities.
My personal assumption is that common religions thus rarely heroquest - they don't have the Otherworld access that would allow them to enter the hero plane. I've never checked this with the power-that-be, perhaps I should do a divination on it.
Yes you can just add abilites Hero Wars style to your character - and make them part of your common magic armory - the reason for classifying it seems to be related to some over-arching Gloranthan consideration. Not much help I know.
I'm sure it makes sense to Greg, no matter how opaque or clear it may seem to any of us.
So, you're saying Imarja is a demon? What does the distinction matter, if she acts like a diety?
That said, I agree with your assessment that CMRs, per se, don't hero quest, but most CMRs are, in any case, really part of larger religions that include otherworld portions. That is, Imarja is common magic, yes, because she's in this world (essentially being a titanic landscape diety for all of Esrolia), but she's still overall part of the Esrolian Earth pantheon. If I was confused about that previously, I had it confirmed for me recently. As such, there probably would be hero questers on her side. They might or might not be able to affect her myths, I'm not sure on that (given that she was at some point from the otherworld, or at least part of everything when there was only one world, I think she still has myths on the hero plane). But even if one cannot affect the myths positively on the other side, that makes the diety relatively inviolate to heroquesting against them as well, does it not?
I'm going to guess that Ron's counter-argument to all of this is that one doesn't need such mechanisms to create an opportunity to examine these issues, just the appropriate back drop. The question becomes to what extent, these rules exist to inform about what glorantha is like vs allowing one to examine the themes implicit.
Anyhow, I think we might be getting into a whole new topic here. Again, for purposes of the thread, I'm not so much concerned with the philosophy behind this, but rather just getting the mechanisms straight. If it turns out that the mechanisms are something I don't want when I understand them, then they can go then. But I'm not going to discard something before understanding how it works.
Mike
I don't want to wander too far backwards, but something you said, mike, intrigued me.
It really is that whenever you learn a new common magic thing, it starts at the level of your keyword? Automatically?
This doesn't apply to other magics, though, right?
I split off my reply to a new thread:
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=13117
Mike
Mike, please don't ascribe statements to me or anticipate my responses.
Best,
Ron
Ian sayeth:
QuoteCommon magic that comes from this world is talents. Everyone can do this. Common religions also offer feats, spells, and charms from Otherworld entities resident in this world (so effectively demons in popular terminology). So joining a religion gives you access to the powers of these petty entities.
My personal assumption is that common religions thus rarely heroquest - they don't have the Otherworld access that would allow them to enter the hero plane. I've never checked this with the power-that-be, perhaps I should do a divination on it.
I think this is right - the sources of common magic are within the mortal world and there is no Otherworld source of power. Remember, you don't even need to necessarily join a common religion to get common magic. In my game, I have plenty of local clan heroes, places, and ancestors that provide common magic. Those characters who have concentrated in theistic magic are restricted to feats. Those characters who have devoted themselves to a god are restricted to worshipping only those heroes that can be worshipped as a subcult of their god (and only get feats).
As a result, I don't mind common magic. Then again, I'm fine with the Three Otherworlds. I would agree with Mark that it is an issue particularly relevant to Gloranthan metaphysics (frex, I don't think that mythic Russia would necessarily have them), but it complements my view of Glorantha.
Jeff