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Quote from: From the Provisional GlossaryImpossible Thing Before Breakfast, the

"The GM is the author of the story and the players direct the actions of the protagonists." Widely repeated across many role-playing texts. Neither sub-clause in the sentence is possible in the presence of the other. See Narrativism: Story Now.[/list:u]

So I'm having this conversation with a fellow Forge-ite and in the process I pull out "The Impossible Thing Before Breakfast" to demonstrate a concept that I am trying to argue.  The conversation quickly got wonky as we did not share the same understanding of the phrase.

In the spirit of trying to move the main conversation forward I offered an explanation of my understanding, but the conversation mired on this point.

My understanding is that The Impossible Thing Before Breakfast (TITBB) is nothing more than bad advice offered by a game designer which basically instructs the GM to run his side of the game in such a way that directly deprotagonizes the players Creative Agenda relevant input.

If the TITBB is put into practice by the GM then TITBB is seen in operation as Force and can lead to dysfunction at the table.

I'm not looking to implicate anyone, but I am wondering if perhaps I am the one who is off the mark.

On a slightly different take, I am wondering if TITBB can also be applied to advice that does not directly deprotagonize player input, but rather sends them off on a fools errand which makes it impossible for the players to pursue a CA.  Frex – would the game manual instructing the players to address Challenge so that they can get Story Now be considered TITBB?  I ask because I believe that any game designer that claims his game is a Sim facilitating game but then talks about "story" also falls into this same mismatch paradox.  Just as you are not likely to get Story Now by addressing Challenge, you're not likely to get the Dream by fussing over story.

(Ron – as this originated about a definition in the glossary I don't know if this post belongs in this forum or GNS.  Please moderate this as you see fit.)

The impossible thing is not just giving the gm bad advice but also the player.   If the player thinks he is free to "direct the actions of the protagonist" and the gm accepts it  the game will run fine.  If however the GM is also trying to "author a story" while the player is "directing" there will be a conflict unless someone is willing to give a little.

Several different approaches to resolving this problem have been attempted and can lead to solid play.  The first two examples listed below are simulationist answers to the problem, the last narrativism.

The gm can give up on his desire to create a story and let the players direct their characters, see where it leads.  If the opportunity to inject story presents itself it may be acceptable but not at the cost of player input.

The gm can author the game while the players willingly follow along, giving up their ability to direct the action.  

The gm and players can work together to author a story.  This can work in many different ways such as game design that focuses on a certain type of story (My life with master, Dogs in the Vineyard, Sorceror) or in situation setup as John Kim mentions in several of his articles (most notably in his articles on proactive players  (http://www.darkshire.net/~jhkim/rpg/theory/plot/proactivity.html)and in his list of adventure design ideas within his article on three fold simulationism (http://www.darkshire.net/~jhkim/rpg/theory/threefold/simulationism.html)) and Marco has posted several play examples of this in actual play.

I've often heard a quote attributed to Henry Ford regarding his cars: "You can have any color you want as long as it's black."  To me, this is TITBB in action.

You can have your characters do anything you want (as long as they decide to be pirates on this cool boat I thought of and run around and chase these cool things I thought up.  If they don't do that, I'll ignore them and they can sit on the shore and sulk.)

I think that TITBB becomes more believeable in proportion to the quality and solidity of a given group's social contract.  If the person running the game understands his players, and they understand him, and they're all relatively amiable, they will (I believe) accomodate one another through the course of the game.  The GM would say that he writes the story and the players would say that they play their characters however they wish.  Neither side may realize all the unconscious limitations they put on their actions so as to fit together.

SomeTHING will determine the course of the story.  It can be the GM all on his lonesome with players following along.  It can be the players with a flexible GM.  It can be the whole group working together.

But you can't say "In this game, the GM is firmly in control of the story and its twists and turns.  Also, players are free to have their characters pursue any avenue they wish unfettered."

Most actual groups probably fall into a gray area between each extreme.  Some are at one extreme or another.  Fine.  But TITBB claims that its game is both total black and total white at the same time.

It seems to me that the problem with the ITBB is that it suggests that the authorship and direction take place concurrently, or (worse) simultaneously.  By its words, it suggests the production of a play previously authored, but then also says that the play has to be written as it's happening.  That only works in improv (where the given terms don't really apply).

I think it's reasonable to say that the GM authors a story--like a very loose script, with just setting and no dialogue--before play starts.  Then, during play, the players and GM all direct the action.  This does often lead to conflict with the original script; but, just as in theatre, such conflict usually produces interesting results.

Quote from: CaldisThe gm can give up on his desire to create a story and let the players direct their characters, see where it leads.  If the opportunity to inject story presents itself it may be acceptable but not at the cost of player input.

The gm can author the game while the players willingly follow along, giving up their ability to direct the action.  

The gm and players can work together to author a story.  This can work in many different ways such as game design that focuses on a certain type of story (My life with master, Dogs in the Vineyard, Sorceror) or in situation setup as John Kim mentions in several of his articles (most notably in his articles on proactive players  (http://www.darkshire.net/~jhkim/rpg/theory/plot/proactivity.html)and in his list of adventure design ideas within his article on three fold simulationism (http://www.darkshire.net/~jhkim/rpg/theory/threefold/simulationism.html)) and Marco has posted several play examples of this in actual play.

I would think my examples of Threefold Simulationism would fall more in your first category than in your third one.  They are primarily player-directed, like my Water-Uphill World campaign.  The third category sounds more like what I would call a hybrid approach between Threefold Simulationism and Dramatism -- like my Star Trek games, my current Buffy campaign, or my Vinland campaign.  

In the Buffy game, there is a fairly clear delineation that the GM sets up the wrapper plot -- i.e. the bad guy to be defeated -- while the players are in control of the subplots -- i.e. the character interaction and subplots.

As for The Impossible Thing Before Breakfast, I put some notes on this on RandomWiki at http://random.average-bear.com/TheoryTopics/ImpossibleThingBeforeBreakfast .  I find that Ron's original comments match up a fair bit with my own thoughts from my "Fasions in RPG Design" ( http://www.darkshire.net/~jhkim/rpg/theory/fashions.html ).  Around 1990, linear-plot games became dominant.  So to my mind, TITBB is the "bad advice" that the GM's preparation should be a prescripted storyline.  I feel that certain previous models are superior, like Champions' where the GM defines the villain but leaves the plot largely up in the air.  (This is pretty much the approach I'm using in Buffy.)

Hello,

Aaron's (Jaik's) points are perfectly on target.

I also second John's comments. Our similar histories with the published adventure/villain materials for Champions in the mid-1980s apparently reached similar conclusions. The more so when, a few years later, the Champions approach was supplanted entirely by Impossible Thing laden adventure supplements, specifically from FASA and later from White Wolf.

Best,
Ron

Looking at these responses I see a few different things here.

1. Some posters (Jay, for one) really only apply the advice to the GM--saying it tells the GM to run either a pre-scripted game. Jaik's Henry Ford quip, although phrased as a paradox (jokingly), says the same thing.*

2. Caldis notes that the other reading of it is possible: that the GM can give up on control and let the players run with the story. The statement contains two possibilities.

NOTE: For this to be "bad advice to the GM which tells him to run a pre-scripted game"--which is what, IMO,what most of the posters here agreed with, then (1) is the correct interpertation. Clearly, judging from the glossary (2) is the one that the term refers to.

That most posters see this as only applying to the GM is, IMO fairly telling: For this to be bad/Impossible the correct reading must be the one that Calids refers to which includes two possible readings and two possible pieces of advice (and one, the empowered players, here is seen as good advice in general).

I think the Wiki is especially good on this count: rarely, IME, does the text say exactly what is quoted in the glossary. Usually it uses the word "like" somewhere in the mix and is clearly refering to an RPG and not a text-story in the first place. Almost always there is a much larger amount of attendant text which discusses other aspects of RPG play or has examples of dialog (which may or may not be good but at least establish that there are multiple roles and that GM's is, indeed, separate from the players in some important ways).

Since it is unclear what 'story' means or what it is 'like to author a story' in an RPG it is, at worst, IMO, unclear advice (no one can agree, even here what such a sentence would mean. If you say "story," I think of creating starting situation so Ron's Relationship maps qualify. At least one poster here--and, IME, many--think 'railroaded pre-plotted adventure').

Two things to note:

1. MJ created a list of at least six types of functional play that could come out of various readings.

2. Someone else (jdagna?) noted that "when you tell people this stuff and give them an RPG you get [some degree] of functional gaming." There is at least one thread here where the poster told his new-gaming crew (a bunch of kids) exactly this and got functional, well understood play out of it.

Why? It's the clearest way to communicate what a traditional game is like in the shortest time.

SECONDLY: For the Impossible Thing to cause problems one of two things must happen:

(a) Someone reads the sentence, internalizes, it and is paralyzed by the paradox. I am told strongly that 'no one does this.' Whether or not anyone does this, clearly the sentence didn't lead to readers in the 80's overanalyzing the literal meanings of the words with regards to fiction and then being unable to reconcile the fine points to the extent where play was impossible even to begin because they were faced with a literal and unresolvable paradox.

(b) Different players only internalize ONE of the two arguments. Again, here, they are presumably thinking deeply about meanings of the words--but not placing that in a cooperative, dynamic, RPG context. They are not applying the context of the sentence and are figuring "I'm the protagonist--that means I direct all the action." (Or "I'm the author, these people always do exactly what I tell them.")

While this (clearly) is what the complaint is, that's not inherent in the sentence itself. The use of similie ("like") or the use of metaphore (RPG-game is related to a 'story') is, in this scenario, ignored by the reader who is carefully examining the sentence otherwise.

In otherwords, this misguided gamer is smart enough to apply a stringent literary context to the words but not smart enough to realize he's engaged in a cooperative exercise of some type.

FINALLY: In many games we see that there are problems with the players and GM wrestling for control of the action or just plain being disappointed with the direction someone took things. Anyone who has worked on a creative project of any sort with a group knows that the problem TITBB describes is extant in a lot of places where no such text exists.

While I'm sure someone has run afoul of this snippet of text, I rather expect that this same phenonema occurrs in groups where only the GM has read the book and therefore the players would hypothetically have no expectation of controling the action.

But they still do.

This strikes me (strongly) as seeing a behavior and then blaming a piece of text for it.

I think the term is a good one for traditional-model gaming since it gets most readers into the right general ballpark (GM creates situation, runs world and other characters, players then take action within that backdrop). To be really excellent advice one could get a lot more specific about roles and discuss a myraid of different ways to set up games and share power.

In the end, I think people will still be disappointed with the direction someone took things and GM's (especially) may find themselves flustered when a traditonal game situation evolves in a direction they did not expect.

-Marco
* I'm interested in this:

Quote
The GM would say that he writes the story and the players would say that they play their characters however they wish. Neither side may realize all the unconscious limitations they put on their actions so as to fit together.

I'm amazed by the idea that this would be considered 'unconscious.'

In my play this is, in fact, pretty conscious in the sense that I expect to be constrained by situation and expect that any legitimate action will be accepted even if it makes for 'a worse story' (but, you know, if I felt that doing something would ruin the GM's fun, I'd consider not doing it for obvious and conscious reasons).

In the games I've written up, I think that in an RPG context it is very fair and perhaps even correct to say that the GM is the author and the players are the protagonists.

I say this is *correct* because of the conscious working-together within different roles that produces the play. It's the Impossible Thing in action.

It happens that in response to a request from Places to Go, People to Be, I've just penned a three-article (totalling about ten thousand words) summary of the main currents in theory here, and the second of these is subtitled The Impossible Thing Before Breakfast. I've gotten some very positive feedback from one of the more significant (at least in my mind) contributors here, so I'm feeling pretty brave on this point at the moment.

Despite what Marco says, the text is the problem. It is not the problem he thinks it is; the text does not paralyze any group. What it does is create diversity of play that leads to incompatibility between play groups. But I'm getting ahead of myself.

What I realized was that the text that is the basis for The Impossible Thing Before Breakfast is a stated distribution of credibility that is impossible on its face. It says

• The referee has sufficient credibility to make all determinations concerning what story is to be told and how it will be resolved;
• The character players have sufficient credibility to determine all the actions and choices of all the protagonists in that story.[/list:u]
  As Marco rightly observes, no one in their right mind thinks that this is what the writers meant. Instead, we take it to mean something else. Yet, again as Marco remembered, there are quite a few different ways of making sense of this. In my article, I identify four, which I connect with four major "referee styles":
  • The referee takes full control of the story, working all player decisions into his plan, while the players think their decisions matter but are being undermined at every significant turn such that they may be moving their characters around but they control nothing--Illusionism.
  • The referee takes full control of the story, and the players give it to him, because that's how these things are done--Participationism.
  • The referee plans a story and lays out sufficient clues for the players to follow it; he then entrusts his story to the players, who are committed to finding and following the path he created without any interference from him--Trailblazing.
  • The referee has full control of the setup, but after that he can do nothing but respond to the choices made by the players as they create the real story--Bass Playing.[/list:u]All of these are choices in credibility distribution that different people think those statements mean, because they obviously don't mean what they say.
    
    The problem is that if a Participationist player gets hold of a Bass Playing referee, he won't know what to do--he's expecting the referee to lead him through the story. Conversely, if it's a Participationist referee and a Bass Playing character player, they'll be fighting with each other for control of the story.
    
    That's why The Impossible Thing Before Breakfast is a problem: it pretends to define the correct distribution of credibility between the participants, but it does so in a way that is inherently contradictory, and thus everyone makes their own distribution of credibility but thinks they're doing what the book told them to do.
    
    Is that clear?
    
    I think this is pretty much what Ron has been saying for the past seven years, but for some reason very few people really got it. Ultimately the problem isn't that any one gaming group can't figure out how to play from reading the text. The problem is that any two gaming groups will come up with a different way to understand the text, and thus the game becomes incoherent (another badly misunderstood concept I address in the same article) because different playgroups are playing different games based on the same set of rules.
    
    --M. J. Young

Hi MJ,

To be very clear: TITBB is not a description of a social contract or distribution of credibility: it is an analogy describing a basic high-level dynamic of play.

People who choose to read it as the literal text of a social contract are going to have problems. Taking any analogy literally has problems and doing so is not, IMO, the fault of the author.

Quote from: M. J. Young
What I realized was that the text that is the basis for The Impossible Thing Before Breakfast is a stated distribution of credibility that is impossible on its face. It says

• The referee has sufficient credibility to make all determinations concerning what story is to be told and how it will be resolved;
• The character players have sufficient credibility to determine all the actions and choices of all the protagonists in that story.[/list:u]
  

So I don't think this is what it "says." Since it is an analogy (usually, IME, a simile) taking it literally is going to lead to confusion.*

For these two bullet points to be 'what the text actually is saying' one must be taking it very literally indeed.

The idea that it is literally saying anything of the sort is exactly the kind of analysis that leads one to the conclusion that it is a set pf directions for a basic, hard and fast social dynamic.

(and note that in this thread a lot of the analysis just concluded that it was bad advice to the GM to run a pre-ploted game--since the glossary is very clear that it isn't saying that, why should we conclude that anyone else's examination of the text is this concrete?)

Quote
As Marco rightly observes, no one in their right mind thinks that this is what the writers meant. Instead, we take it to mean something else. Yet, again as Marco remembered, there are quite a few different ways of making sense of this. In my article, I identify four, which I connect with four major "referee styles":

• The referee takes full control of the story, working all player decisions into his plan, while the players think their decisions matter but are being undermined at every significant turn such that they may be moving their characters around but they control nothing--Illusionism.
• The referee takes full control of the story, and the players give it to him, because that's how these things are done--Participationism.
• The referee plans a story and lays out sufficient clues for the players to follow it; he then entrusts his story to the players, who are committed to finding and following the path he created without any interference from him--Trailblazing.
• The referee has full control of the setup, but after that he can do nothing but respond to the choices made by the players as they create the real story--Bass Playing.[/list:u]All of these are choices in credibility distribution that different people think those statements mean, because they obviously don't mean what they say.
  

In each of these examples it is quite fair to say that "the GM is the author of the story and the PC's are the main characters" for an entirely reasonable value of those terms ('story,' 'author,' and 'main-character').

I realize that you are saying that the text leads to misunderstandings between groups but I think this is making the assumption that everyone's entire understanding of credbility distribution is based solidly on one of those four modes of play.

I don't think most people outside of theory land will assume anything of the sort and therefore will not have the kind of exacting expectations that you ascribe to the casual reader.

Quote
That's why The Impossible Thing Before Breakfast is a problem: it pretends to define the correct distribution of credibility between the participants, but it does so in a way that is inherently contradictory, and thus everyone makes their own distribution of credibility but thinks they're doing what the book told them to do.

Is that clear?

I don't think this is clear at all because I don't think the text pretends anything of the sort. Everywhere I've seen it, it attempts to describe the basic roleplaying dynamic (which it does), not the exact distribution of credibility.

Considering that all kinds of creative groups fall into exactly the same types of power-struggle issues when there is no such text at all to guide them, why would we assume that in the case of RPG's it's because of this one line in the book?

If that doesn't convince you, consider this: outside of some very theory-based, very rigid groups, no one is likely to have an exact expectation of distribution of credibility that falls into one of those categories.

Even ifthe GM has a commitment to something akin to your Playing Bass, he may still panic when the situation gets "out of control" and resort to illusionism and not feel that he has broken any contract whatsoever (and, indeed, the players may not either, even if they later find out exactly what happened--perhaps it's better to have the game continue in a fun fashion than have a panicked GM paralyzed because of some bizarre commitment to an abstract standard)

A group who a canny, theory-based observer would see as Trailblazing might find that the players have no problem with the GM slipping into participationism if things start to get dull and undirected.

Since I don't think that real groups will realistically have such a defined distribution of credibility as MJ lists, I submit that the one reasonable expectation that groups will have for functional gaming is that they cooperate and respect each other. With that, any mix of the four listed modes will work. Without it, no social contract, nor any piece of text will work.

-Marco
* It is often said here that using a game that is ill-suited for one's preferred style is like using a hammer to chop down a tree. Can I say that is The Forge's Impossible Thing since the idea of swinging an RPG to make a circular indention in a style of gaming makes no sense?

It's New Year's Eve.  I'm sick.  I thought I stop by the Forge.

M.J. -- your outline seems solid to me.  Only one bit stuck out:

"The referee has full control of the setup, but after that he can do nothing but respond to the choices made by the players as they create the real story--Bass Playing."

I'd suggest that in Bass Playing the GM has a lot more to do with the story than "just responding".  If I'm the GM and I throw a Bang down on the table that startles everybody and jump drives the story options in a whole new set of vectors no one could have anticipated -- I'm helping to drive the story.  Just not in the same way as the Players with their PCs.

It's a subtle point, but an important one.  There seems to be this notion when this issue comes up that either the GM is in charge of the story, or the Players are.  I have always considered Bass Playing to be the honest mix of all parties in the creation of the narrative.  As you've defined it, the GM is simply tagging along after the players.  I've never percieved it this way.  Do you?

***

Marco,

Is it possible people conclude TITBB is interpretted by different people in different ways precisely for the reasons M.J. has posted: Given the contradictory (impossible) nature described in the text people assume their own meaning for it to make it "work."  For whatever reason, different people make different assumptions.

And let's be clear: Jay's initial assumption isn't just about what TITBB means to the GM.  For it to be "bad" advice the Players would have to believe their PCs are true, active, story-driving protagonists.  If the Players consider PCs protagonists as long as they're "in a scene" -- then the advice isn't bad at all -- and we have one of M.J. functional interpretations of the TITBB.

As to how it's possible the Players might run ashore on the text even if they're never read it -- well, I don't think that's all that hard.  If I'm the GM and I've worked out my Plot, and I tell the players how to play by saying, "It's like you're the characters in a movie -- but this time you get to decide what to do," there well may be trouble.  This description is a common elaboration of the TITBB.  I may never tell them my half the deal -- and gears my grind when the group decides to side with the bad guy instead of rescuing the princess.

M.J.'s break down offers the possiblity that some group's might naturally find their way.  Others might negotiate in the first session or over time.  But the fact remains that the TITBB is a stand text element in RPGs that needs to be interpretted before its of any use to anyone.  And because the words and the concepts ("protagonists" "story" "author") are slippery once put into motion in an RPG session, there really is too much contradiction for it to make any sense.  (When I say the words are slippery, I'm of course referring to the fact that while a gazillion gamers know exactly what they mean, they all have different meanings to different gamers.)

As for this notion of theory-land -- I've never played a game there.  If there's a map, please post a PDF.  I've been bumping into this concept on chat boards far too much lately and it's simply becoming unbearable.  It's a rhetorical jimmycrack that's just benath you Marco.

When people comment about the TITBB has something they've expereinced in a game, is it possible they actually did end up beached on that text?  It seems to me, again, given the slippery nature of the words, that some groups found their way of playing, while other folks never really were satisfied with the how one group or another played?

I played plenty of games in the past where the group cooperated, with great focused effort, in fact, to make sure we never broke the walls of the GM's machinations.  We respected the GM, we respected each other.  I at least was bored out of my mind and finally had to wonder what all the work was for.  I found out later I wasn't alone in my boredom, however.  Many of my fellow players, despite their effort to play their PC's "right" while staying within the confines of the GM's story felt bored and frustrated.  They were playing "right" - they had found their workable comprimise of the TITBB.  They "repsected and "cooperated" -- but it grated their nerves in the end.

And finally, I think your belief that cooperation and respect is all that's required to have a good time at the table is horribly misplaced.  While I would expect all the players at the table to cooperate and respect each other, it still seems to me that the question of "Cooperate to what end?" and "Respect each other for doing what?" still need to be answered.

To say, "Our game works because we cooperate and respect each other," seems at insusbtational an analysis as, "Our game works because we have fun."  Well, clearly different people have different ideas of what consitite fun.  And if you're going to do a group activity, you better been cooperate and you better respect each other, but to what end?  

If I actually want to play a game where being a Protagonist means fully making choices for my PC, and the GM's idea of "story" means he knows I'll be fighting the bad guy at the climax one of two things happens:

1) We realize sooner or later that  our gears aren't meshing.  This isn't a matter of lacking respect.  And it isn't a matter of lacking the desire to copperate -- just as a man who shows up with the makings of blueberry pie may well want to coopearate with the man who has the makings for pasta and shrimp -- but it isn't going to happen.

2) "Respect" and "cooperation" is interepretted to mean: "Stop wanting what you want."  I offer, coldly and blunty, that in many RPG circles this is exactly how the words are interpretted.  Now, I'm not speaking of the constant negotiation of ideas and moments that go around the table throughout any session.  I mean, the real purpose for my showing up.  In the example I gave, I showed up to Play a protagonist as I understand Protagonist.  Having arrived, eight minutes into the game I'll quickly realize that if I'm going to keep playing I'll have to "cooperate" and "respect" the other player's style and give up on this notion.

This fulcrum of choice -- playing the way one wants (by finding the players who want want you want), or getting on with the game cause dammit, in an RPG, this is the way you play -- is in many respects the arguement that seemed to drive so much animosity between different posters here and RPG.net when I first showed up years ago.  I don't think it's going away any time soon.  I'm the kind of guy who will ask, "Why can't I play the damned games the way I want."  And the rejoinder (at least what I hear as the rejoinder) is, "Why can't you just swallow enough of your own desires to coopererate with the other players?  Why can't you repsect other gamers enough to play the way they want to play?"  I don' think there's a way to resolve this split.

Finally, let me quickly switch my example around.  I know some lovely and talented gamers in town.  And when I asked them about their favorite gaming experiences, they described a GM who gave them one astounding visual setpiece after another.  They wanted to show up as the PCs so they could go on the ride he offered.  I pulled out Sorcerer and started offering ideas like Kicker and Bangs and... They all kind of fell silent.  Respectfully.  But it was clea that what I was offering had nothing to do with what they wanted.  As a GM I wanted players who wanted to be Protagonists as I use the word.  They wanted a Story as they use the word.  Respect and cooperation were never going to get us over this gap.

That's not theory-land -- wherever the hell that is.  That's just people, talking, feeling each other out for a game, and realizing that sitting at the table in an actual play session, cooperation would be impossible since we would want to build different expereinces, and respect would become a non-issue since that would have nothing to do with solving the problem.

Best,

Christopher

Hey everyone, thank you for making the effort to respond.  However, I would like to point out that not one person directly responded to either my proposition or the question I had asked.

My proposition is, was the following an accurate and, more importantly, more useful rendering of the TITBB –

The Impossible Thing Before Breakfast (TITBB) is nothing more than bad advice offered by a game designer which basically instructs the GM to run his side of the game in such a way that directly deprotagonizes the players' Creative Agenda relevant input.[/list:u]Notice that in this rendition I say absolutely nothing about story, or plot or anything about Narrativism or Simulationism.  There are many reasons for this.  Not least of which is the question I posed –
...I am wondering if TITBB can also be applied to advice that does not directly deprotagonize player input, but rather sends them off on a fools errand which makes it impossible for the players to pursue a CA. Frex – would the game manual instructing the players to address Challenge so that they can get Story Now be considered TITBB?[/list:u]I received a private email from someone that I am going to quote fairly directly.  It is very clear and it represents my first defense against TITBB being argued from a play level point of view.  As it was a private message I shall leave it up to the author to lay claim to it or not.

QuoteThe thing is that the impossible thing applies more to [the] game book text than to actual play. A game gives instructions that is the impossible thing, that the GM writes the story while the players control the characters. Then, when people try to do this, it gets hashed out in a variety of ways, like deprotagonization (...). The impossible thing is a theory-level phenomenon. You do not see it in actual play because it is impossible. Just like how two objects cannot occupy the same space at the same time or an object cannot be in two places at once.

Various emphasis mine and not the original author's.

To argue TITBB from a play level is a category error.  While you can get dysfunction from the implementation of TITBB, but not all dysfunction is as result of TITBB being implemented.  TITBB is something that exists in the rules/game text.

I am proposing that TITBB is not about story and who controls it, but about instructions that when followed directly lead to the stifling of player CA relevant input via GM authority.

Is my take any different from the definition offered in the gloss?  No.  Not one little bit.  The difference is that the definition of the gloss is an example of a CA specific type of TITBB, it this case a Nar ITBB.  M. J.'s take about it being a game text issue is spot on.  The key, as I understand TITBB is not that it totally deprotagonizes all player input, it just gives advice to the GM to engage in deprotagonizing behaviors – the degree to which this is expressed is irrelevant.

Having established the above, it now becomes easy to generalize TITBB to all the CA's, which I think is extremely important and will tie directly into my second point which has not been addressed at all.

This whole thread very clearly demonstrates the very problem I was trying to highlight with my question about misdirecting all the players (GM included) about what is to be pursued in the promoted CA of that particular game design.  To be more direct I will requote my own question –

Quote from: SilmenumeI am wondering if TITBB can also be applied to advice that does not directly deprotagonize player input, but rather sends them off on a fools errand which makes it impossible for the players to pursue a CA.  Frex – would the game manual instructing the players to address Challenge so that they can get Story Now be considered TITBB?

If this question does not fit the proposed definition TITBB, does anyone have a better name for it?  IOW, if TITBB offers advice on how to pursue a particular CA in a manner that obstructs that very process by telling the players to, let us say, address Challenge so that they can get Story Now; can such advice be considered TITBB?  I wish to nail this down for this simple reason –

Any supposed Sim facilitating game design that fusses over story is sending all the players (including the GM) on a fool's errand.  If everyone is looking for Story, then they should be playing Nar.  Sim is not conducive to story creation and certainly not story as proposed in the gloss and the Narrativism essay.  In Sim, the tools aren't there and the process just doesn't support it.  Sim isn't about story creation.  

Has anyone ever noticed that in all the threads about Sim and story, that deprotagonization is always present (even if the specific word isn't used)?  How can the understanding of a CA be coherent if nearly all the discussions about the functioning/execution of it almost always requires that the players be deprotagonized to some degree?  Doesn't anyone find that odd?  The whole model is predicated on supporting/facilitating player input, yet almost every conversation about players and the Sim process includes the virtual necessity of some disempowerment of the players.

Could it be that Sim isn't about story and that any game text instructions about Sim which include the promotion of story is really an example of the Sim Impossible Thing Before Breakfast?

Cross posted with Christopher.

PS - Happy New Year everyone!

Hey Chris,

I'm sorry to hear you're sick. Rotten time of the year for it. :(

Quote from: Christopher Kubasik
Marco,

Is it possible people conclude TITBB is interpretted by different people in different ways precisely for the reasons M.J. has posted: Given the contradictory (impossible) nature described in the text people assume their own meaning for it to make it "work."  For whatever reason, different people make different assumptions.

Let's look at the right-tool-for-the-job analogy that is commonly accepted here as an argument for RPG-focus. I could argue that it's nonsensical and misleading--bad advice to the game designer since two readers will come to different conclusions about what the analogy means by:

1. The striking surface.
2. The claw-end of the poorly-suited RPG.
3. What a nail is in the analogy
4. What a tree is in the analogy.
5. etc.

The gist of the analogy, however, is commonly held as accurate and it's seen as a useful way to make a point.

Saying that there are different models for the traditional role of GM and PC is also accurate. It's even valid insight.

Interperting an analogy as a literal mission statement and the basis for a contract of expectations and deciding that it is whimsically paradoxical and creates problems, however is an exercise in badly misplaced literalism.

That's what I mean by "theory-land" and I agree with you: most people don't run games there. It certainly isn't easy.

Quote
And let's be clear: Jay's initial assumption isn't just about what TITBB means to the GM.  For it to be "bad" advice the Players would have to believe their PCs are true, active, story-driving protagonists.  If the Players consider PCs protagonists as long as they're "in a scene" -- then the advice isn't bad at all -- and we have one of M.J. functional interpretations of the TITBB.

That's not what he wrote though. I think it's pretty much standard here (and many other places) to see pre-plotted games as an objectively bad idea (with the caveat that, yes, some people may enjoy that). People have opinions here just as anywhere else (look at the SF Heartbreakers thread). Consider that several follow-up posts did specifcally touch on the fact that, really, the canonical issue is about miscommunication--not advice.

Quote
As to how it's possible the Players might run ashore on the text even if they're never read it -- well, I don't think that's all that hard.  If I'm the GM and I've worked out my Plot, and I tell the players how to play by saying, "It's like you're the characters in a movie -- but this time you get to decide what to do," there well may be trouble.  This description is a common elaboration of the TITBB.  I may never tell them my half the deal -- and gears my grind when the group decides to side with the bad guy instead of rescuing the princess.

I think we see the kind of powerstruggle/conflict of direction in creative groups where no such text could exist or would be applicable (rock groups). What then?

Quote
As for this notion of theory-land -- I've never played a game there.  If there's a map, please post a PDF.  I've been bumping into this concept on chat boards far too much lately and it's simply becoming unbearable.  It's a rhetorical jimmycrack that's just benath you Marco.

I'm sorry to be piling on there. I think reading an analogy as the terms of a dysfunctional social contract is overanalyzing. It's theory over practice.

Quote
And finally, I think your belief that cooperation and respect is all that's required to have a good time at the table is horribly misplaced.  While I would expect all the players at the table to cooperate and respect each other, it still seems to me that the question of "Cooperate to what end?" and "Respect each other for doing what?" still need to be answered.

The specifics of the question "Doing What" are below the level of TITBB's analogy. Once you have established that you have a GM and you have PC's you are done with with the utility of that analogy.

The misconception is that it should be able to distinguish roles and responsibilities below that.*

That isn't, IME, how it is meant. There may be other text that tells the GM to railroad the players or exhorts the GM to let them run free--or there may be nothing at all.

But the analogy by itself communicates that the GM runs the world and the situation and the players (mostly) play one character each to which things happen.

Aside: I don't think that respect and cooperation is *all* that is necessary. I think that without that no text will produce functional gaming in a traditional RPG.

-Marco
* This is like saying that the hammer and tree analogy must tell me how to design a combat system, IMO.

Quote from: SilmenumeHey everyone, thank you for making the effort to respond.  However, I would like to point out that not one person directly responded to either my proposition or the question I had asked.

My proposition is, was the following an accurate and, more importantly, more useful rendering of the TITBB –

The Impossible Thing Before Breakfast (TITBB) is nothing more than bad advice offered by a game designer which basically instructs the GM to run his side of the game in such a way that directly deprotagonizes the players' Creative Agenda relevant input.[/list:u]

I think the response has been pretty clear if not direct, the problem isn't just one of bad advice to the GM rather it's bad advice in both directions.  It tells the GM to act in one way and the players to act in another, ignoring the fact that they cant possibly both do exactly what the statement says without conflicting with the other.  Some serious negotiation of what the terms mean and what the roles of each is going to happen to develop functional play.  So to answer your question directly your rendering is neither more useful nor more accurate.

QuoteIf this question does not fit the proposed definition TITBB, does anyone have a better name for it?  IOW, if TITBB offers advice on how to pursue a particular CA in a manner that obstructs that very process by telling the players to, let us say, address Challenge so that they can get Story Now; can such advice be considered TITBB?

I think the problem is you are trying to apply a specific term to a generic problem.  TITBB does refer specifically to the statement, 'gm author-player protagonist', that you quoted at the top of the thread.  Generically this would be a self-contradictory statement or maybe a contradiction in terms.

QuoteHas anyone ever noticed that in all the threads about Sim and story, that deprotagonization is always present (even if the specific word isn't used)?  How can the understanding of a CA be coherent if nearly all the discussions about the functioning/execution of it almost always requires that the players be deprotagonized to some degree?  Doesn't anyone find that odd?  The whole model is predicated on supporting/facilitating player input, yet almost every conversation about players and the Sim process includes the virtual necessity of some disempowerment of the players.

Could it be that Sim isn't about story and that any game text instructions about Sim which include the promotion of story is really an example of the Sim Impossible Thing Before Breakfast?

Interesting questions however I dont think you are correct in stating "the whole model is predicated on supporting/facilitating player input"  what it does is describe and categorize certain behaviors that are observed to be present in role playing.  A typical use of the data would be to support player input.  

Sim as it has been defined is any game where exploring the imagined elements of the game is more important than either facing challenges or as a group creating a story.  Sim can be about story if the story is just another element that is explored, not something that is actively being created in play.  The gm will usually create the world, the npc's, the cultures the players will meet, in this case he will also create the story they take part in. That is why sim can contain participationist play along with bass playing and trailblazing and even games that have no story inclinations whatsoever.  

Any game that claimed to be sim and about creating story during play would be guilty of making a self contradicting statement, one that could be cleared up by defining the terms i.e story becomes a transcript of events.

Hi Silmenume (it's Jay, right? it's been a while),

Like Caldis, I believe everyone actually did respond to your proposition.  (I don't think it was directly, however).  They said, No, that's not a more acurate or useful wording of the TITBB.  They made this clear when they all said that the GM and the Players are both getting failed instructions on what to do, that they will have to hit either a loggerhead or a comprimise.  

You seem bent on interpretting it this way because you're on a path somewhere else.  Godspeed -- but the truth is TITBB, to my weary, cough-jostled brain, simply isn't that complicated a concept.  I don't quite get the shenanigans you're up to.

Marco,

Thanks for the reply, but... we're clearly not going to go anywhere here.

When you write: "But the analogy by itself communicates that the GM runs the world and the situation and the players (mostly) play one character each to which things happen," all I can say is, "Duuude. That's how you're interpretting it."  

I've played in the games where people meant it to be something much different.  I've read threads over on RPG.net where people read the TITBB clause and clearly came away with very different conculsions than you did.  There a dozens of threads arguing that the GM is the Author from GMs telling players to stop screwing up their plots. And just as many from Players wondering the hell why they can't make an significant decisions if they're the damned heroes of the story.

I don't think the concern about TITBB is that complicated: the concepts of "story" "protagonist" and "author" as well as their numerous substitue words ("character" "narrative" "plot" "hero" and others) are very slippery.  I can't even consider this a point that needs to be argued anymore.

The complicated part is when actual human beings have to negotiate their way through play with each other and firm up those slippery concepts.

As M.J. points out, different groups will find their own way this.  Those who buy the way the group goes stay, those who don't leave.

But now my mind begins to fray.  As I just wrote to Jay, I don't honestly see how the TITBB is even on the table. It's a clumsey concept, doing harm in its apparent simplicity and lacking all use as an idea to help people play together.

You seemed to be defened a standard clause pro bono, a clause that's found with different wording in different books.  The general point is summed up:

"The GM is the author of the story and the players direct the actions of the protagonists."

Now, in your kind hearted defense you're making a clear point -- there's nothing about "railroaiding" in that text.  And I would say, You are right.  

However, all the players at the table, the GM and the Players, might well stumble across railroading.  (As well as a bunch of other techniques -- Bangs or Kickers for example).  Why?  Cause they're trying to figure out how to play this strange thing called an RPG and they're muddling through as best they can and there's this portion of the text that says, "The GM is the author of the story and the players direct the actions of the protagonists."

I don't care if "railroading" isn't mentioned specifically.  It's a choice that some will stumble across as the GM tries to "author" the story.

The point of naming the TITBB is not that it by definition creates railroading (despite what Jay's poking around at).  It's that it sets up incompatible agendas for the players at the table.  

That's it.  

There are several ways of finding ironing out compatible playing techniques -- M.J. did a fine job of laying them out.

TITBB is not about pre-plotted scenarios being bad.  (Well, it's bad for people like me when I encounter a GM who's interpretted TITBB to mean "I string the players along for six hours," because I percieve it as "being strung along"!)

It's a core kernal of instruction in many RPGs about what players at the table will do with these strange rules.

And its vauge, useless, and contradictory.

Even your interpretation is slippery, Marco.  You  wrote:

"But the analogy by itself communicates that the GM runs the world and the situation and the players (mostly) play one character each to which things happen."

Which is find for you're group -- because I'm assuming your group likes this.  

But I don't consider a protagonist someone "to which things happen."  You may (and probably will) consider me splitting hairs here, but I have experienced -- and been bored by -- too many sessions where I was supposed to respond to things happening and not have enough chance to MAKE things happen.  And clearly, the vigor and drive with which I want to take action through my PC outstrips what some other players like.  Reading your interpretation of how to negoatiate the failed instruction of TITBB gives me the willies.

Yours is one interpretation of negotiating TITBB into actual play.  And a valid one.  But can you agree it certainly isn't the only way to go? I find your easy comfort in knowing you "know" what is meant by this vague and contradictory notion baffling.

And that's it for me.  Nice stopping by.  But I gotta struggle back to work.

Best,

Christopher

Quote from: Christopher KubasikHi Silmenume (it's Jay, right? it's been a while),

Like Caldis, I believe everyone actually did respond to your proposition.  (I don't think it was directly, however).  They said, No, that's not a more acurate or useful wording of the TITBB.  They made this clear when they all said that the GM and the Players are both getting failed instructions on what to do, that they will have to hit either a loggerhead or a comprimise.  

You seem bent on interpretting it this way because you're on a path somewhere else.  Godspeed -- but the truth is TITBB, to my weary, cough-jostled brain, simply isn't that complicated a concept.  I don't quite get the shenanigans you're up to.

Marco,

Thanks for the reply, but... we're clearly not going to go anywhere here.

When you write: "But the analogy by itself communicates that the GM runs the world and the situation and the players (mostly) play one character each to which things happen," all I can say is, "Duuude. That's how you're interpretting it."  

I've played in the games where people meant it to be something much different.  I've read threads over on RPG.net where people read the TITBB clause and clearly came away with very different conculsions than you did.  There a dozens of threads arguing that the GM is the Author from GMs telling players to stop screwing up their plots. And just as many from Players wondering the hell why they can't make an significant decisions if they're the damned heroes of the story.

I don't think the concern about TITBB is that complicated: the concepts of "story" "protagonist" and "author" as well as their numerous substitue words ("character" "narrative" "plot" "hero" and others) are very slippery.  I can't even consider this a point that needs to be argued anymore.

The complicated part is when actual human beings have to negotiate their way through play with each other and firm up those slippery concepts.

As M.J. points out, different groups will find their own way this.  Those who buy the way the group goes stay, those who don't leave.

But now my mind begins to fray.  As I just wrote to Jay, I don't honestly see how the TITBB is even on the table. It's a clumsey concept, doing harm in its apparent simplicity and lacking all use as an idea to help people play together.

The general point is summed up:

"The GM is the author of the story and the players direct the actions of the protagonists."

Now, in your kind hearted defense you're making a clear point -- there's nothing about "railroaiding" in that text.  And I would say, You are right.  

However, all the players at the table, the GM and the Players, might well stumble across railroading.  (As well as a bunch of other techniques -- Bangs or Kickers for example).  Why?  Cause they're trying to figure out how to play this strange thing called an RPG and they're muddling through as best they can and there's this portion of the text that says, "The GM is the author of the story and the players direct the actions of the protagonists."

I don't care if "railroading" isn't mentioned specifically.  It's a choice that some will stumble across as the GM tries to "author" the story.

The point of naming the TITBB is not that it by definition creates railroading (despite what Jay's poking around at).  It's that it sets up incompatible agendas for the players at the table.  

That's it.  

There are several ways of finding ironing out compatible playing techniques -- M.J. did a fine job of laying them out.

TITBB is not about pre-plotted scenarios being bad.  (Well, it's bad for people like me when I encounter a GM who's interpretted TITBB to mean "I string the players along for six hours," because I percieve it as "being strung along"!)

It's a core kernal of instruction in many RPGs about what players at the table will do with these strange rules.

And its vauge, useless, and contradictory.

Even your interpretation is slippery, Marco.  You  wrote:

"But the analogy by itself communicates that the GM runs the world and the situation and the players (mostly) play one character each to which things happen."

Which is fine for you're group -- because I'm assuming your group likes this.  

But I don't consider a protagonist someone "to which things happen."  You may (and probably will) consider me splitting hairs here, but I have experienced -- and been bored by -- too many sessions where I was supposed to respond to things happening and not have enough chance to MAKE things happen.  And clearly, the vigor and drive with which I want to take action through my PC outstrips what some other players like.  Reading your interpretation of how to negoatiate the failed instruction of TITBB gives me the willies.

Yours is one interpretation of negotiating TITBB into actual play.  And a valid one.  But can you agree it certainly isn't the only way to go? I find your easy comfort in knowing you "know" what is meant by this vague and contradictory notion baffling.

And that's it for me.  Nice stopping by.  But I gotta struggle back to work.

Best,

Christopher

Quote from: Christopher Kubasik
"But the analogy by itself communicates that the GM runs the world and the situation and the players (mostly) play one character each to which things happen."

Which is find for you're group -- because I'm assuming your group likes this.  

But I don't consider a protagonist someone "to which things happen."  You may (and probably will) consider me splitting hairs here, but I have experienced -- and been bored by -- too many sessions where I was supposed to respond to things happening and not have enough chance to MAKE things happen.  And clearly, the vigor and drive with which I want to take action through my PC outstrips what some other players like.  Reading your interpretation of how to negoatiate the failed instruction of TITBB gives me the willies.

Yours is one interpretation of negotiating TITBB into actual play.  And a valid one.  But can you agree it certainly isn't the only way to go? I find your easy comfort in knowing you "know" what is meant by this vague and contradictory notion baffling.

And that's it for me.  Nice stopping by.  But I gotta struggle back to work.

Best,

Christopher

Well, if you have 1 GM that is recongizable as a GM (i.e. does some prep-work that might be a relationship map, a linear adventure, a starting situation, a dungeon, etc.) and the players usually have 1 character whom they make decisions for during the game then: we are reading it the same way.

The analogy of TITBB is not about the exact nature of the power-split. It isn't about "protagonization" in the sense that The Forge has come to define it. I've seen a lot of RPG.net threads too. I think they're irrelevant.

The analogy is about the basic fundamental roles of the GM and the players. It doesn't get any lower-level, which is where you directly want, and need, to take it to declare it somehow dysfunctional or impossible.

Even if the players do a lot of work during the prep of the game--even if the players discuss what they want the game to be about or direct the GM as to how they want to play: if the dynamic of play is anything that would be recognized as a traditional RPG apart from, say, Universalis or a multi-GM larp then the description is apt and adequate.

Perhaps you want to be splitting hairs and have decided it somehow serves you to read "to which things happen" in a way that gives you the willies. But that's okay--if we were playing together, I'm sure that you'd be real clear about what you wanted and if I were GMing I'd be doin' my best to work together with you.

All that is well below the level of the analogy that got us to traditional roleplaying in the first place though.

-Marco

Just a short post in case I'm not reading correctly:

The way this impossible thing is worded, it seems to force a new interpretation by its impossibleness.

For example, imagine I gave you instructions to lay a piece of paper on your lap, and make holes in it by bringing down a knife hard, into the paper repeatedly.

Ah, I think your going to reinterpret what I meant by hard...like hard enough to go through the paper. But not hard enough to go through paper and your legs.

The impossible thing seems quite similar. Like with Marco and Christopher, I imagine they would work out something if they played together, because in communicative groups, if someone is getting 'stabbed in the legs' by the impossible thing, everyone feels it. People avoid unpleasant stuff, system does matter.

Personally I like the idea of "Just like how two objects cannot occupy the same space at the same time or an object cannot be in two places at once."

Rather than my 'being stabbed in the legs' example, these two objects (GM and player effort to have COMPLETE CONTROL) are smashing together, as they try to be in the same place at once. While the impossible thing IS impossible, that doesn't mean it can't be attempted. And that is painful to all involved. Pain is a penalty, penalties lead to changes in behaviour (since system matters), and creative adaptions of the instructions are adopted.

Or not. I believe sometimes the pain of the impacts is outweighed by other factors...like a GM instructed that he is to spend a lot of time writing up an adventure and told 'GM is god'. In this rough example, the penalty of chucking away lots of the work he did and giving up this rather pleasant feeling of god-dom. This penalty is bigger than the penalty of butting heads with players...so he doesn't stop butting heads.

If I'm not keeping up, I'll bow out.

No, Callan, you've got it. That's an excellent overview, I think.

I've been in many games where everyone involved tried to achieve TITBB.  Naturally, they all failed.  And when they failed the game would shift to some other balance of credibility, just like people have been posting here.

But here's the thing:  The advice is so prevalent, and so forceful, that I attributed those failures to some failing in me.  I assumed that people wouldn't be writing this advice if it had not worked consistently for them.  If I couldn't plot out a detailed story and tell it reliably, while giving the players complete freedom and basing everything on their decisions then it was because I was a bad GM.  Likewise, if I couldn't have complete freedom while also toeing the line of the GMs story then I was a bad player.  Very demoralizing.

It's less (for me) the knife-in-the-leg metaphor than it is the "Work eighty hour weeks at your job, and always be there for your family, and be a pillar of the volunteer community."  It's not just bad advice, it's an impossible standard.  But because it is a standard some people pride themselves on living up to there is an unwitting conspiracy to conceal how impossible it is.

Quote from: TonyLBBut here's the thing:  The advice is so prevalent, and so forceful, that I attributed those failures to some failing in me.  I assumed that people wouldn't be writing this advice if it had not worked consistently for them.  If I couldn't plot out a detailed story and tell it reliably, while giving the players complete freedom and basing everything on their decisions then it was because I was a bad GM.  Likewise, if I couldn't have complete freedom while also toeing the line of the GMs story then I was a bad player.

Could you talk about which games you played where you got that advice?  In past discussion, I find that people often refer to wildly different actual text when they talk about "TITBB".  Ron's original essay cited 2nd edition AD&D (1989) as the pioneer, followed by 4th edition Champions (1989) and Vampire: The Masquerade (1991), and then Earthdawn, Kult, In Nomine, Deadlands, Legend of the Five Rings, and 7th Sea.  I would dispute some of these (mainly Champions), but I agree with the overall trend.  

Also, in my gaming experience, I find that people rarely play the game as written.  For example, I recall causing a fair amount of hair-pulling to my Call of Cthulhu GM when my PC continued to rationalize away the strange things he saw and go off in completely the wrong direction.  That was a pretty classic clash of player freedom vs GM control.  But that wasn't caused by the Call of Cthulhu text.  Rather, I was blatantly ignoring the CoC text.  CoC up front defines the PCs as "investigators" and repeatedly emphasizes that they are unraveling mysteries created by the GM.  But since it wasn't what I was interested in, I ignored that and caused a grief to my GM.  

Now, mind you, I don't hold up CoC as ideal instructional text.  Perhaps our problems could have been avoided if it had a better player's section, and probably I would have negotiated some changes to the structure before the game.  But it at least has well-written starting scenarios which illustrate the principles which it outlines.  There is no linear sequence of scenes, but there are a set of clues within the background and it is clear that the players are supposed to try to find the clues and solve the mystery.  

Lots of games have clear and functional divisions.  In Tunnels and Trolls or original D&D, the DM maps and populates a dungeon, then the players explore it.  In Champions, the GM creates villains and the players then try to defeat those villains.  Many games have fairly functional divisions like this.  

On the other hand, I do feel that there is some truly bad advice in games, and I overall agree with the trend Ron noted in his GNS essay.  I'll quote from Deadlands, page 15 and page 180:

QuoteMost of you players take on the roles of "player characters" -- the heroes and heroines of the story.  Collectively, you are the "posse".  Each of you tries to accomplish your character's goals, defeat nefarious villains, decipher the many mysteries of Deadlands, and avoid becoming lunch for some unsavory critter.

QuoteYou're the Marshal.

Remember that.  You're the fellow who makes all the decisions and keeps things moving.  It's your job to make the posse afraid of the dark while still dying to know what's in it.  You have to run scenes full of high-action and drama, then turn around and do a little romance and comedy.  You need to know enough rules to get you by, and you'll probably wind up paying for more pizza and soda than anyone else in the room.

I't a tough order to fill sometimes.

True to what the latter quote says, adventures in Deadlands are laid out in a series of chapters.  Each chapter describes a location and the events that occur there.  So this has moved from the earlier model of the GM handling a background which the players explore, to the GM truly being described as author of the story who lays out chapter by chapter what is supposed to happen.  However, the description to the players has not correspondingly been changed to explain to follow the GM's lead.

Quote from: TonyLBThe advice is so prevalent, and so forceful, that I attributed those failures to some failing in me. I assumed that people wouldn't be writing this advice if it had not worked consistently for them.

[snip]

Very demoralizing.

Edited intro: IME the text usually refers to "What is roleplaying" rather than "how to GM advice"--but I don't have specific references to cite handy. I think taking the statement as advice instead of an analogy that sets up the two, very possible, roles of GM and player is, indeed, destined for some confusion.

But that isn't what causes the problems associated with it.

Given someone who has read TITBB as advice the important question still is: How much to-blame is the text itself and how much is based on the fundamentals of traditional RPG-play?

It is my belief that the question of competing power-over-game-direction is not based on the suggested analogy but rather happens because under traditional roleplaying (which is accurately, and profitably described by TITBB, which does not aim to do more than that) there is a GM with a significant authorial role and players who have a lesser authorial role but have the basic, reasonable expectation of their actions being significant.

You don't have to start applying specific defintions to these terms to understand what I am saying here: Any resonable spectrum of meanings the terms could have will still apply.

Thesis: Issues of control or input into game-direction are endemic to the traditional open-ended model of RPG's because the GM sets up Situation and runs the world** to a significantly greater degree than the players.

When the game reaches a point that the GM is either unprepared to facilitate the players or unengaged by the direction the players have chosen, there will be a legitimate problem, the solution to which must come from respect and cooperation because it exists above the level of game-system or even philosophy-of-play***.

Consider this: http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=9725

This is an actual play write-up of a Sorcerer game set in an asylum. The game took something of a left turn when one of the players decided his character was going to escape the asylum and the GM wasn't really prepared for it (I think the game was altogether a good one and everyone  comported themselves well--I'm not assigning any blame or calling the game dysfunctional).

But this is an Impossible Thing driven incident despite the game in use and the fact that several of the participants (including the GM) are Forge regulars.

I say this because:

1.The player is taking action to 'make a major change in the story happen' (an escape).
2. The 'authorial work' the GM has done (creation of Setting and Situation) doesn't encompass this and
3. There are problems in play (of a degree significant enough to post about and to have some other regular posters suggest a roll-back of events).

I mean, IMO, this is *textbook* 'TITBB problems.'

In a game that most certainly doesn't contain that text, with mechanics and a philosophy that is designed to counteract it and player(s) who are aware of this issue and therefore should be enured to its influence, how can this problem still come to be?

I submit that this problem happened and will still happen in any traditional game (which Sorcerer is, with it's one-GM, who does the prep-work, and the players who play their individual characters).

In Sorcerer the players, I would think, certainly get to make major plot twists like an escape--and the GM of a Sorcerer game would, I'd think, not be playing in the spirit of the system to simply stomp the PC's back into 'his story.'

Right?

So if the problem can (and will) appear without the text and not because of it, then where is it coming from? I think the write-up is very clear: When the GM is unprepared (or, maybe worse) unengaged by the action the PC's are taking (that the players are authoring or protagonizing or whatever verb you want to use to show the game-direction-impact the player's actions are having) then the world will tend to stop responding well.

There are ways around that--many non-traditional game-mechanics will, in fact, remove it as an issue. But as long as that lasts, you're going to see the problem of "who drives" with or without the text because one potential driver is responsible for the world and all the rest of the NPC's and the pacing of events not caused by the players.

That's the 'paradox' of the Impossible Thing and it will happen with or without the text and quite apart from anyone's reasonable expectations.

So why not "blame the text" anyway? (or hey, even blame the traditional model). The reason is that TITBB's text describes the power split which is more often than not very functional and fufilling. It's an accurate description of AD&D or Sorcerer or GURPS or Hero.

If someone has "tried and failed" to "live up to the analogy" they're barking up the wrong tree. There's whole books (and this board) that goes into detail about what it means to, for instance, 'be a good GM.' We still don't have a concise answer.

Any problems aren't the fault of the game authors who do their part in conveying that there exists a GM and players in their game. The statement is an excellent starting point for that. Converting it into some kind of discrete mission-statement will make it easier to assign blame there (or too oneself for somehow not living up to a perfect game) but the basic nature of the problem exist in all of traditional roleplaying and, IME, has a purely social solution.

-Marco
* Reading an analogy as literal advice really *is* the problem here. One might just as well also assume that RPG-play is a textual medium since authors are usually known for writing their work.

** By "running the world" I mean running NPC's, I mean applying laws of physics, I mean making a significant amount of pacing decisions, and I mean a generally greater use of directoral power.

When the players have as much or almost as much directoral power, control over pacing and NPC's, and input into the specifics of situation then we have departed the tradtional RPG model.

*** This could, for example,  be one of MJ's four modes of so-called solutions (or ways of 'making sense') to TITBB. Saying "We're doing Trailblazing" will not assist this problem. Even declaring "This is Participationism" won't help with it since although it removes an avenue of complaint ("The GM was railroading me!") it doesn't help make the play functional.

If the GM, out of respect and a spirit of cooperation, backs off on his story to make changes the player wants then we can't really say we are doing "Participationism" any more.

Quote from: MarcoThesis: Issues of control or input into game-direction are endemic to the traditional open-ended model of RPG's because the GM sets up Situation and runs the world** to a significantly greater degree than the players.

Quote from: Marco** By "running the world" I mean running NPC's, I mean applying laws of physics, I mean making a significant amount of pacing decisions, and I mean a generally greater use of directoral power.

When the players have as much or almost as much directoral power, control over pacing and NPC's, and input into the specifics of situation then we have departed the tradtional RPG model.

Um, your definition of "traditional RPG model" doesn't include, say, a D&D DM running a written dungeon module.  Here the DM has virtually no control over pacing, for example.  Pacing is almost entirely handled by the players.  The linear-plot model of a GM who forcefully runs the PCs through scenes of his choosing is neither inherent nor traditional.  It became dominant for game designs in the 90s, but there are plenty of games and gamers who do not follow it.  

Quote from: MarcoWhen the game reaches a point that the GM is either unprepared to facilitate the players or unengaged by the direction the players have chosen, there will be a legitimate problem, the solution to which must come from respect and cooperation because it exists above the level of game-system or even philosophy-of-play***.

Well, no.  Any game can have issues of competing authorship or direction, whether it has a GM or not.  This applies as much to, say, Soap as to traditional RPGs.  Now, Soap has rules to resolve what happens -- but that doesn't prevent the same thing you say about a GM.  I might still be (1) stuck for ideas of what to do on my turn, or (2) not engaged by what the other players are doing.  

The game does have an influence on this, though.  Many games provide implicit or explicit direction to the players.  For example, Trollbabe specifies that PCs should not exit the adventure which the GM prepares, but also specifies that the GM should not plan an ending.  A game can provide interesting material to be brought in and engaged by.  For example, D&D provides monsters and other elements to populate dungeons with.  Champions provides villains to fight.

Quote from: John Kim

Quote from: MarcoThesis: Issues of control or input into game-direction are endemic to the traditional open-ended model of RPG's because the GM sets up Situation and runs the world** to a significantly greater degree than the players.

Quote from: Marco** By "running the world" I mean running NPC's, I mean applying laws of physics, I mean making a significant amount of pacing decisions, and I mean a generally greater use of directoral power.

When the players have as much or almost as much directoral power, control over pacing and NPC's, and input into the specifics of situation then we have departed the tradtional RPG model.

Um, your definition of "traditional RPG model" doesn't include, say, a D&D DM running a written dungeon module.  Here the DM has virtually no control over pacing, for example.  Pacing is almost entirely handled by the players.  The linear-plot model of a GM who forcefully runs the PCs through scenes of his choosing is neither inherent nor traditional.  It became dominant for game designs in the 90s, but there are plenty of games and gamers who do not follow it.  

Note that I did, intentionally, use the words "open-ended model of RPG's" in the thesis statement.*

There's always a danger that a concise definition will have exceptions somewhere and module play is one of them here. I don't consider module play (or a dungeon, for that matter) especially "open-ended."

1. If you are playing only-in-a-dungeon AD&D or using a dungeon module (even more so) then TITBB is unlikely to be an issue--usually the system is very, very closed.

Of course a spell (Passwall, IIRC was specifically let out of Tomb of Horrors) or a clever strategm could upset a GM who was looking for a good challenge to happen--but I think that's a fundamentally narrower issue.

2. Additionally, I agree, in a "traditional" dungeon usually (IME) nothing (or not much) is moving other than the PC's so, yes, pacing isn't much of a factor there (if the GM created the dungeon then the other factors still apply, though).

And finally, in a tight module the GM doesn't get to exercise much directoral power either or, usually, do any prep-work.

That's all true. A discussion of how powersharing works under modules would be interesting--but I think it's also a bit tangential to my thesis which is talking about open-ended play wherein I don't think either "dungeon only" or "strict module" play really fits in--or at least I don't think it fits in well.

Quote
Well, no.  Any game can have issues of competing authorship or direction, whether it has a GM or not.  This applies as much to, say, Soap as to traditional RPGs.  Now, Soap has rules to resolve what happens -- but that doesn't prevent the same thing you say about a GM.  I might still be (1) stuck for ideas of what to do on my turn, or (2) not engaged by what the other players are doing.  

My point isn't that in other games there won't be conflicts--my point is that in "open-ended traditional RPG's" they will be fundamentally different, hard to have rules to concretely solve, and, IMO, often more severe than in many non-traditional games.

If the GM is tasked with running the world and an evolving situation of any complexity, when there is such a problem the results will be different than they are for games such as Universalis wherein a player might get stuck for his turn but that (I wouldn't think) won't deprotagonize another player.

I don't think it's unreasonable to make a statement that in traditional (non-module) RPG play the GM is responsible for more preporatory and world-oriented authorial/directoral elements than the players usually are. The (IMO) overwhelming nature of this in these games is going to lead to problems which are not easily resolved under that model.

I'm not to clear on what the power-split is in Soap. I know that there is a necessity for the GM to do some prep-work but, you know, if that's balanced by a lot of open-ended directoral power in the hands of the PC's then I probably wouldn't classify it as 'traditional.'

Of course people's threshold for that will differ and I'll readily accept that there are gray areas.

Like the module-case, however, I'm not sure that fundamentally addresses my thesis.

Quote
The game does have an influence on this, though.  Many games provide implicit or explicit direction to the players.  For example, Trollbabe specifies that PCs should not exit the adventure which the GM prepares, but also specifies that the GM should not plan an ending.  A game can provide interesting material to be brought in and engaged by.  For example, D&D provides monsters and other elements to populate dungeons with.  Champions provides villains to fight.

Oh I'm not saying there can't be *bad advice* (for some value of 'bad advice,' anyway). The Riddle of Steel is chock full of stuff that I consider questionable in a game that is so well regarded for it's focus on player-direction.

But I think that the target piece of text is a particularly bad example of poor-advice.

1. It (IME) isn't advice.
2. It's usually one of the first things said--an analogy to establish two fundamentally different roles--in which it is accurate.

There's a lot of text that usually comes later that, IME, is both more like 'advice' and, in the examples I have read, clears up the author's take on the analogy somewhat.

-Marco
* Edited to add: I think these games would also be the ones that are more often thought of has "having a story" (and AD&D can easily 'have a story'--I'm not talking about mechanics so much as the basic nature of play).

It's also not entirely clear what I mean by open-ended, I'm sure. I'm working on a concise textual definiton. I would let out games like MLWM which have hard-coded end-conditions. I wouldn't say that a linear dungeon is especially open ended in that spectrum either.

A very detailed module that tracked people's progress through scenes would be less open than one that just lays out, say, a relationship map and/or a situation and leaves it at that.

Hello,

Everyone should remember that the purpose of the thread is to aid and abet Jay's understanding of the Impossible Thing.

As far as I'm concerned, M.J.'s breakdown (with the proviso/correction about Bass Playing) is sufficient and excellent toward that purpose.

This is not a place for people to say, "Oh, the Impossible Thing, well now, I have a bee in my bonnet about that, so I shall hold forth!" Which is what you're doing, Marco.

Nope. Don't post in reply. I do not care. You have numerous threads and posts already at the Forge about this. The responsible thing to do is to hunt them down, list them in a nice post which says, "A dissenting view may be found here," and be done.

Best,
Ron

I want to apologize to Jay that I missed the point of his original post. I think I understand now what he is saying, and can address it a bit better.

Quote from: In the original post, JayMy understanding is that The Impossible Thing Before Breakfast (TITBB) is nothing more than bad advice offered by a game designer which basically instructs the GM to run his side of the game in such a way that directly deprotagonizes the players Creative Agenda relevant input.

If the TITBB is put into practice by the GM then TITBB is seen in operation as Force and can lead to dysfunction at the table.

This is all both correct and irrelevant, and that's why there's a problem with your definition.

You see, there is really nothing dysfunctional nor even wrong about the advice given to the referee, that he should run the story. I've been in riotously fun games run by Illusionist referees, where everyone had a great time and thought he was contributing to the outcomes but after the fact we discovered that the guy running the game never lost control of his story for an instant. All our choices were rigged, all our decisions were vacated if they interfered and affirmed if they contributed, and we never did a thing that was not exactly what he wanted. He took that "advice" seriously, and he made it work.

Of course, once we knew it was all an illusion, it shattered the game. A lot of us never played in his games again, because it just wasn't fun for us to go through the motions of play. Why agonize over decisions that won't matter? Why even think about them? Let me lay back on the sofa, and you just tell me the story. Don't make me work at trying to bring about the ending I want, when the ending that you want is inevitable and you're working hard to persuade me that it really was what I wanted all along.

On the other hand, a lot of people stayed with him, and the game shifted to participationism, because they knew he was manipulating everything, including them, to get his story told, and they enjoyed watching it happen.

So the advice given to the referee is not "bad advice" per se. It can lead to perfectly functional game play, if everyone is willing to play in a participationist game.

Nor is the advice given to players "bad advice" per se. A lot of games--most of the games, maybe all of the games, I've ever run--very much place the player choices in the foreground and the referee's involvement in a supporting position. The advice given to players, that they should play as the heroes in the story, make the decisions of the protagonists, can lead to excellent play.

The problem--the only reason why this is "The Impossible Thing Before Breakfast"--is that the advice given to the referee and the advice given to the players cannot both be followed as writ and have any sort of functional play at all. One side or the other or both must compromise from that statement to some point of balance or agreement in which either the players are not really controling their characters (e.g., participationism) or the referee is not really completely controling the story (e.g., bass playing).

It is not that the advice given to the referee is bad advice. It is that it is in direct, obvious, and irreconcilible conflict with the advice given to the players.

Does that help?

--M. J. Young

QuoteOne side or the other or both must compromise from that statement to some point of balance or agreement in which either the players are not really controling their characters (e.g., participationism) or the referee is not really completely controling the story (e.g., bass playing).

It is not that the advice given to the referee is bad advice. It is that it is in direct, obvious, and irreconcilible conflict with the advice given to the players.

Does that help?

Well said, although I think "irreconcilible" is probably not what you really wanted to say.  As you note in the above paragraph reconciliation is possible through compromise...at which point the group has rewritten the advice to support their own play in a way that eliminates the conflict.

The Impossible Thing is impossible because both parts cannot both be true at the same time...not because either part by itself is inherently wrong.


I was flipping through an old Judges Guild RuneQuest supplement yesterday and came across a passage that really lept out at me.  It said (roughly) "If the players follow the lead they will wind up at the Inn, if they don't you might as well close the book now and play something else".

While perfectly functional, this represents a very definite (and common) compromise.  Here the players aren't controlling their characters.  The expectation is that they will play along with the GM's lead and if they don't the game is over.  In this solution, the players control of their characters is expected to be subserviant to the GMs control of the story.

Hey Ron,

Thanks for your aid in refocusing this thread.

Hey Christopher,

It is Jay, and it has been a while.  I hope that you are feeling better now.

Quote from: Christopher KubasikYou seem bent on interpretting it this way because you're on a path somewhere else. Godspeed -- but the truth is TITBB, to my weary, cough-jostled brain, simply isn't that complicated a concept. I don't quite get the shenanigans you're up to.

Shenanigans!  Me?  If I didn't know better, I think I should be insulted!  ;o)

You are right, TITBB isn't that complicated a concept.  Actually, it is quite simple.  Ralph (Valamir) stated it fairly clearly, but ironically enough if was M.J. Young who stated the issue in a way that best supports where I am trying to go.

Quote from: M. J. YoungThe problem--the only reason why this is "The Impossible Thing Before Breakfast"--is that the advice given to the referee and the advice given to the players cannot both be followed as writ and have any sort of functional play at all.

Emphasis mine

That's all TITBB as defined does lay claim to – not one iota more.  One cannot have a functional process (play) by employing the advice as given.

Part of the point of this thread was to demonstrate that many people don't understand TITBB.  Truth be told there are several things I wished to accomplish in this thread.

• A public acknowledgment of the definition of TITBB.  (My earlier conversation should not have foundered on a glossed vocabulary word.)
• I wanted to generalize the understanding of TITBB into the form of a principle rather than in the form of a specific example.  (This opens up and helps make the model more versatile as a whole.)
• From this generalized principle, as opposed to the specific form of TITBB, I wished to demonstrate that TITBB is most emphatically NOT about Story specifically, but about promoting a non-functional, self-defeating game process.  If anyone would wish to note, in my principle version of TITBB there is absolutely no mention of story at all.  The principle version does cover those games which do concern themselves with Story, such as Nar, but covers other CA relevant issues as well.  Which brings me to...
• Finally I wanted to bring to light that the Forge community as a whole is engaged in The Impossible Thing Before Breakast EVERYTIME SIM IS DISCUSSED IN TERMS OF STORY.[/list:u]
  
  Must as one is creating an impossible thing when arguing that addressing Premise will allow you to Step on Up, there can be no progress made in the understanding of Sim if every, and I do mean every conversation about Story drags in Sim, or every conversation about Sim drags in Story.  We already have a CA that covers story, and it does so quite effectively without having to make the players, designers and theorists contort the game process into these unbelievably tortured exercises of hiding the fact that story does not mate well with Sim.  Something always has to give.  The other two CA's don't have these persistent nagging problems over who has to compromise on the theory and play level.  Point in fact both Nar and Gam delight in encouraging the players to grab onto the CA process with both arms and teeth and go – Go – GO!  Sim discussion is always this tortured agonizing hammering of a square peg (Dream creation) into a round hole (story).
  
  Folks – it doesn't fit.  Full Stop.  There can be no fruitful conversation about the nature of Sim if story is the measure.  Heck, lets look at the model itself.  Creative Agendas are indicated by player process.  If Nar is the player process (addressing Premise) of creating Story, then what process remains to Sim to – create – Story?
  
  The plain answer is – there isn't.  Sim isn't about creating story or having story or anything else to do with story.  Why?  
  
  Because the Sim player process is Bricolage.  That is the player process by which the Sim CA is expressed.  Bricolage is to Sim as Premise is to Nar and Challenge is to Gam.  Bricolage does not make stories.  Bricolage does make things, and in this case as the palette available to the Sim bricoleur is character, setting, situation and color, what you get is myth – not Story.
  
  Thus you have the following -
  
  Nar – player addresses Premise (Story Now) -> Theme/Story
  Gam – player addresses Challenge (Step on up) -> Victory/Effective Strategy.
  Sim – player engages in bricolage (The Right to Dream) -> Myth.
  
  This thread is an absolutely perfect example of the unquestioning stampede to hammer story into Sim.  Not only did I not introduce story into my restatement of TITBB – I never mentioned Sim at all!!!  And yet this whole thread is littered with Sim and story.
  
  I think it is time for the Forge to take a step back and really consider this problem.  There is a problem going on here that in the world of hard sciences would be appalling.  It is plain to see, especially in light of the Model, with implicitly seeks to facilitate CA relevant player input, that all the discussions of Sim and story center around finding ways to gracefully do what must unfortunately be done – finding a compromise on Sim player input.  As if Sim player input was a problem!!!  
  
  And for all the blood that has been spilled on these forums the sad truth is that Sim player input is a problem – if you trying to force Sim in story.  However, there is another paradigm for Sim player input that does not require compromise or finding ways to compromise the Sim player input.  Like Gam and Nar, this process not only allows but enthusiastically encourages(!!) the players to wrap both arms around and bite into the process just as lustily – and its called Bricolage.
  
  I would suggest in the strongest terms possible that posters consider this for at least 48 hours before stampeding in to defend any position.
  
  Stop.
  
  Think.
  
  Reconsider.
  
  There is an article and a thread that deal with this idea in a very profound way.  Yet it appears that few people are engaging in "Charitable Reading."  No one is really reading; everyone too busy ejaculating their dearly held ideas.  Before anyone responds to this thread please read the following three articles –[list=1]
• On Charitable Reading (http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=13096).  Read this post first.  There is precious little of what it calls for all of us to reach when engaging in intelligent discourse.  Look at this very thread as an example what isn't happening.
• Next read the article Ritual Discourse in Role-Playing Games (http://www.indie-rpgs.com/_articles/ritual_discourse_in_RPGs.html).  Unless I'm the only moron here, it will take more than one day to read and understand the article as it took me several days to read and process it.  Read this article while keeping in mind the principles espoused in the post on Charitable Reading.
• Next read this thread Not Lectures on Theory [LONG!] (http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=10283)
• Finally read the thread On RPGs and Text [LONG] (http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=13560).  Please note the discussion on the difference between myth and story.  Also note how the respondents are not always reading charitably.  This thread is over 130 pages long in Word while in a 12 point font.  So anyone who claims to have charitably reads all these materials and comes back to post a response in under 2 days is not being honest.[/list:o]All the above links lay the necessary groundwork by which this new discussion can take place.  Until Sim is seriously discussed outside the paradigm of Story, there will be no progress in understanding.  To continue to do so would be to engage in the debate equivalent of TITBB.  Lets try the old debate preparation trick where we try to argue the opposing viewpoint (Sim is myth – myth is not story – the Sim game process is Bricolage) and see what insights we come up with.
  
  I would like to consider this thread closed for at least 48 hours so that the ideas can be really considered.  This is not meant to stifle debate, but rather to allow people the time necessary to consider before posting.
  
  Thank you.