In this thread, Thor Olavsrud wrote:
Quote from: Thor OlavsrudQuote from: bcook1971It sounds like instincts are macros. And action-oriented play targets.
Absolutely, that's one level. I think of that as the Mechanical level.
In a way, what the BITs really do is help the group to establish the Social Contract.
At the mechanical level, my Instincts establish with the group that "my guy" functions in a slightly different way than the baseline rules. He's so aggressive that he actually starts combat in Aggressive Stance, even though other characters have to take an Action to do that.
Or, he's so cautious in the deep tunnels that he Assesses at every junction, even if I don't actually state that when it comes up. In fact, that's so important to my character that if we all forget and suddenly turn a corner and run into something dangerous, we'll back up a step so I can roll my Assess to see whether I became aware of it.
Then there's what I'll call the Character level. This works on the principle that "Actions speak louder than words." Instincts are the most primal, compact way of telling everybody at the table what your character is about. Sure, my character has a few Beliefs that do that too, but those are more of a big picture thing. If my dwarf has the Instinct, "If there's a cave-in, then I Push the youngest to safety," that tells the entire group a lot about who my character is and what he values. First, he's careful and aware of the dangers that come with being underground. Second, his first thought is to protect someone else, not himself. And third, that someone else is the "youngest" meaning that he puts some sort of value on youth (and the group might rightly come to the conclusion that since he's the oldest dwarf in the group, and has taken the "Husband" lifepath, that this Instinct stems from a desire to protect children).
Finally, there's the Story level. On this level, the Instinct is a direct statement to the GM, "I want to showcase this aspect of my character." If I have the cave-in Instinct, I'm telling the GM that I want at least some of the game to happen underground in caves or tunnels, and I want to have a cave-in.
Anyway, that's Instincts as I see 'em.
For some reason, this just tipped me over the edge.
I had liked a bunch of what I heard about Burning Wheel, but I was afraid that it was way too rules heavy for me and had other little things that were keeping me from it. That Dwarf father thing got me though. Nice and elegant mechanic that says so much...
So...should I wait for the revision? And will the revision be available as a pdf right away?
wait for the revision.
That passage is, in fact, in the Instincts section in the Revision!
-L
Quote from: dunlaingFor some reason, this just tipped me over the edge.
I had liked a bunch of what I heard about Burning Wheel, but I was afraid that it was way too rules heavy for me and had other little things that were keeping me from it. That Dwarf father thing got me though. Nice and elegant mechanic that says so much...
So...should I wait for the revision? And will the revision be available as a pdf right away?
Wow dunlaing! That brought a huge smile to my face.
To be honest, I've never really been a fan of "rules heavy" games either. For me, at least, Burning Wheel is different because the core rules are very simple: roll a pool of d6s, 4s or better are successes. Almost everything else in the game is an extension of that.
Personally, I think you should definitely wait for the Revision, for a number of reasons. First, it won't be long before it comes out.
Second, while the core rules in Burning Wheel Classic TM are as I described, there were a number of fiddly bits that weren't consistent. A huge effort has been made to clean those up and really streamline things. I think the new rules are both more elegant and more powerful.
Third, it gets rid of counting Paces in combat, which can be a real headache! In some of the other posts on this forum, you'll see Bill Cook really struggling to "get" them. Luke has now tossed 'em. Yay!
Fourth, the Revision has the new social mechanics that add a lot to the game and really let you take it in new directions. Specifically, the Duel of Wits which allows you to script debates, court cases and other verbal disputes in the same way Burning Wheel allows you to script combat. To be honest, most of the games I've been in lately have escalated to titanic verbal duels, not combats! And they've been incredibly intense and exciting. In addition to the DoW, the new Circles attribute adds a totally new way to deal with social networks. With these mechanics, a sprawling game of diplomatic intrigue or underworld maneuvering is mechanically supported. The "face" character, whose major ability is that he knows tons of people is now both mechanically viable, interesting, and valuable. Reputations and group affiliations are tied into this mechanic as well. Best of all, this is a really "player-empowered" mechanic that allows players to introduce new NPCs to the story if they roll their Circles attribute well enough.
Fifth, the Revision has the new resources mechanics that we've been playing with for a while. Haggling and trading and so on really becomes conflict-laden and interesting with these new mechanics. If you want to play a game in which the Fuggers and Medici go head-to-head in a battle for financial supremacy, these rules are for you! In our last campaign, our characters' quest to unseat the rival merchant families that controlled our city hinged on our ability to pool together our resources to contract mercenaries for one more month of employment. Everyone at the table was biting their nails as the roll was made!
While all this seems like a lot of additional rules, in fact they are just different implementations of the same mechanic. They are fluid and consistent and really a pleasure to work with in play.
And sixth, the lifepaths have been dramatically expanded! The various races have been completely overhauled, and emotional attributes (Grief for Elves, Greed for Dwarves, Hatred for Orcs) have been the focus of a lot of work. These attributes are now the axis mundi for these races, everything else revolves around them. A different group recently completed a Dwarf game (in which the Husband dwarf was my character!) in which the climax had the characters confront and struggle with their Greed, seeking to overcome it with their noble ideals. It was a titanic struggle and super intense! They finally had to work together to help each other overcome their base instincts!
As for a PDF, Luke has said that he has no plans to release either the Revision or the Monster Burner as PDFs until if and when they go out of print.
QuoteSo...should I wait for the revision? And will the revision be available as a pdf right away?
Hey, Luke, another request for a .pdf version!
Should we open a petition about it?
Is Monster Burner compatible with the Revision? I'm going to wait for the revision before buying the main rules, but was wondering if I should buy Monster Burner before they run out of print copies.
Thanks.
Quote from: Roger EberhartIs Monster Burner compatible with the Revision? I'm going to wait for the revision before buying the main rules, but was wondering if I should buy Monster Burner before they run out of print copies.
Thanks.
The Monster Burner is compatible with the Revision. There is a very short list of things that need to be updated, but they will be covered in errata that Luke will release when the Revision hits the market.
What is the progress on the pdf version? Are the print copies anywhere near running out?
Quote from: dunlaingWhat is the progress on the pdf version? Are the print copies anywhere near running out?
I don't believe so. But if it sold out this fast, I can assure you there'd be a second printing lickety-split.
At this point, and I'm not speaking for abzu here, I wouldn't count on a PDF version anytime in the forseeable future. If it happens, it probably won't be for several years. However, Luke has put up lifepath chapters from the character burner in PDF format for sale at Key20.
Quote from: dunlaingWhat is the progress on the pdf version? Are the print copies anywhere near running out?
Hi Dunlaing,
where you at? I'm guessing that shipping is expensive for you. Which sucks, I say. Sucks.
Anyway, I'm planning on keeping BWR in print for as long as possible. I have an abiding love of printed matter and I'm quite proud of the way BWR looks and feels. So no pdfs in the near future. Terribly sorry.
-Luke
Quote from: abzuQuote from: dunlaingWhat is the progress on the pdf version? Are the print copies anywhere near running out?
where you at? I'm guessing that shipping is expensive for you. Which sucks, I say. Sucks.
No, shipping ism't expensive for me. I live in Washington, DC. I'm just really into getting my rpgs as pdfs these days. (plus, instant gratification is cool).
I suppose I'll have to order the printed version :(
If it's any consolation, the actual product is really, really nice. It's like, you know, an actual book. Not like an RPG.
Quote from: PaganiniIf it's any consolation, the actual product is really, really nice. It's like, you know, an actual book. Not like an RPG.
???
I
like RPGs.
I did just order the books though (Revised and Monster Burner is everything, right?)
The product. As in the book. It's nice. Like something made by real people from a real publishing company. Not like an RPG.
Quote from: PaganiniThe product. As in the book. It's nice. Like something made by real people from a real publishing company. Not like an RPG.
Ok. When it gets here, I'll expect it to look much nicer than Nobilis, then? Or Adventure!?
Definitely better than Adventure. I haven't seen Nobilis, so I can't say for sure on that one.
The Burning Wheel books are certainly of a more functional size than the coffeetable-sized Nobilis book.
Yay! My copy arrived yesterday! (#660: get your orde rin now o try for #666!) All three books look quite nice.
I burned my first character after reading the Spokes. I didn't really know exactly what I was going for, but I thought that some sort of rougish fellow would be good. I also don't necessarily have a huge grasp of all the rules (having only read the spokes) but was pleasantly surprised by my character I created with 4 lifepaths:
I started out as a Born Noble. I decided I wanted my rogue to be a rogue more by desire than necessity. I picked up Mark of Privilege here. Looking over the other Noble lifepaths, one caught my eye right away...
But first, a spot of confusion: the Lord lifepath requires either Knight or the "Your Lordship" trait. How is one supposed to get the "Your Lordship" trait at this point in the character generation process. Is it enough to have een Born Noble and simply agree to pick up Your Lordship when you get to the Traits step, or do you have to take Born Noble again to actually gain the Your Lordship trait before that?
My second Lifepath was Bastard! I gained an infamous reputation among the nobility and pick up a Wise on Family Secrets. How cool is that? At this point, my roguish fellow isn't all that rogue-y, so, at the tender age of 14, I take the Lead to the Outcast setting.
Looking over the Liffepaths in the Outcast setting, I like both Outlaw and Strider, but decide that the actual Outlaw trait is a bit too scary (especially since I am thinking of the character as a city-based character). Besides, my eye chances upon the Blackmailer lifepath and I take it! I pick up some skill in Forgery, gain the Coldhearted trait, and use my ill-gotten gains to move back to the City setting.
Once in the city, I have a bit of a change of heart about the character. I decide that I like the blackmailing bastard as a social animal and less of a thief-y type. So I pick up the Dilettante lifepath and spend a few years living on the blackmail earnings.
My lifepaths (and leads) left me at Age 22 with +2 M and a +1 M/P. After thinking it over, I put the M/P into M and end up with Will B4 and Perception B6. I then assignn Power B3, Forte B4, Agility B4, and Speed B5. That gives me a Health of 5, Mortal Wound of 9, Reflexes of 5, and Steel of 4.
For Skills, I am required to take Family Secret-wise, Forgery, and Sorcery-wise. I also open up all of my other lifepath skills (I have 12 regular points and only 8 lifepath skills) and bump a few up. A lot of them are Perception skills and I bump the others, so they are all B3 at this point. My skills now include Etiquette, Extortion, Ugly Truth, Falsehood, and Oscure History. With my general oints, I open Sword and Stealthy (holdovers from the original concept), raise them each to B3, and raise Falsehood to B4.
For Traits, I am required to take Mark of Privilege, Bastard, Cold-Hearted, and Superstitious. With my remaining 2 points, I pick up Aura of Innocence. I intend to use that for getting me out of the trouble my Falsehood, Extortion, Forgery, et al will get me in.
I have 48 Resource Points, so I pick up a Relationship with my younger half-brother, Esteban, who is the local lord (he's legitimate) and whom I am blackmailing. :) I also pick up run of the mill arms and finery. Then I spend 15 rp on a Villa (which poor Esteban has had to buy to keep me quiet) and then spend 10 points on a 1D Affiliation to the Order of Watchers, a group of concerned citizens in the city who are suspicious of sorcerers and 7 points on a 1D reputation within that group as a man in the know with connections.
I now try to figure out my starting Resources. I have to say, I'm lost here. I've spent 32 points on property, affiliations, and reputations, which would equate to a B2 Resources; but my traits give me an additional 1D reputation and an additional 1D affiliation, which would be worth another 17 points in affiliations and reputations for 49 points or a B3 Resources. Which is it? I don't know.
Finally, Beliefs and Instincts. This is a bit tough since I only created the character for fun, not for a campaign (and thus have no way to tie his Beliefs into the campaign) and have no knowledge of the Rim of the Wheel (and thus have no way to know what instincts are good from a Gamist perspective), but I push on anyway.
Beliefs:
Esteban deserves everything I do to him
I am entitled to a life of leisure
I can get away with anything
Instincts:
When accused, act innocent
When left alone in others' houses, sneak around
Protect my children, even bastards
conclusion: "Burning" this character (Ricardo Montega) was a lot of fun. Just from picking lifepaths that jumped out at me, I ended up with a character with oodles of backstory. (Why was he outcast at 14? Because his father died and Esteban was placed on the throne at the young age of 10 and his advisors feared that Ricardo would try to take the throne from the underaged lord. Of course, Ricardo blames Esteban for it.) he genuinely seems like he would be a fun character to play and I probably would not have come up with him in another character creation system, without the lifepaths.
I'm starting to read the Rim of the Wheel now, so I still don't know how much I'll like the system (and won't really know that until I play it anyway), but I'm digging the character creation a lot already!
Excellent starting point, my friend. Excellent.
To answer your questions: If you take the Lord lifepath (and don't take Knight), you've got to have the Your Lordship trait as one of your final LP traits. You must spend a trait point on it at some time.
Resources: I think you're getting a bit ahead of yourself. You spent 32 points on property, etc. Divide that number by 15 to get your starting Resources exponent. There's nothing more to it.
Your trait based Rep and Aff didn't cost any Resource points to get, so you don't use them to factor the ability exponent.
cool Beliefs, btw!
Your last Instinct sounds a bit more like a Belief. Can you explain how you would use it in play in a "stimulus/response" way?
-L
Quote from: abzucool Beliefs, btw!
Thank you. And thanks for the answers to my questions, they were both clear and made sense. I thought that the things from traits would not count for Resources, but I wasn't sure.
Quote from: abzuYour last Instinct sounds a bit more like a Belief. Can you explain how you would use it in play in a "stimulus/response" way?
Well, it is my
first character. :)
I was actually having a lot of trouble with that last one. It could be that it's a belief and that's why I was having trouble with it. I figured that having it as an instinct would cause the theoretical GM to introduce a bastard child and put Ricardo into situations where he had to protect him. I can see that you're right and it's more of a Belief and that a better Instinct would probably be more along the lines of "In a fight, always push children behind myself." In that case, it would be a clear action that takes place in clear situations, right?
____________________
I read a bit more and realized that Ricardo's a bit "broken." For his character concept, he should have at least one skill that he can use for a Duel of the Wits, but he doesn't have any. If I were playing him, I'd probably drop the Sword and Stealthy each down to B2 (saving 2 general skill points) and open up Persuasion at B2 and raise it to B3 with those points.
that's an excellent instinct, and additionally excellent skill choices. Would make him eminently playable.
-L
You know, I was planning on starting upa Star Wars game the Friday after next, but this guy just won't get out of my head. It really makes me want to run Burning Wheel and have the PCs working for Ricardo.