Last night, my GM Kerstin (StalkingBlue) and I played the first session of our Midnight game since we converted our characters to Heroquest back in December. The other player couldn't make it, so it was just the two of us. (But I always seem to have fun gaming when it's just the two of us, so that was okay by me!)
The game itself was a real eye-opener for me. It reminded me a lot of the "Jackie Chan" game I ran for Kerstin with an improvised system, in terms of the level of communication between GM and player, and the blurring of the dividing line which is traditionally so clear (GM controlling the world, player controlling the PC). There were moments of the session where Kerstin was controlling Katrin, and moments when I was controlling NPCs and/or the enviroment, and they led to really cool play.
The way we seem to play best is to (often) frame our game like a TV show or movie. If you'd suggested it to me without allowing me to try it, I think I would have scoffed at it, but in play it seems to be a perfect way to a) exercise the imagination so that we really "see" what's going on, and b) cut out all of the usual linear-game guff - as Kerstin put it: "Well, I get out of bed, and I walk down the stairs...." This is leading to examples of what I'm talking about, I promise:
One really cool moment that stands out was a dream (and the moments after it) for my PC. One of the wonderful things was being asked "What would Katrin dream about?" (Most GMs I've had would tell me, not ask me, what my character was dreaming.) We came up with a very cool visual sequence that we negotiated together and contained ideas from both of us. The dream ended with Kerstin taking control of my PC for a moment and propelling us into the next sequence very dramatically. It was great.
Another cool moment involved doing something really interesting and creative with something that I always worry will present problems in a game: the time-jump. In a highly linear game (like most Gamist games I've taken part in, where players want their character to be using every in-game moment to do something advantageous or useful) time jumps always seem to trigger long arguments about what PCs were doing in the intervening time. Not for us! When there was a necessary time jump (of a week or so) we had a very cool "cut to...". It included an establishing shot - my image - and it all felt very cinematic. That was a moment of my controlling the environment, for the same brief "one shot" that Kerstin had taken over my character, and I thought it worked brilliantly.
The other moment I want to talk about was the very end of the game. My character was separated from one friendly NPC, whose boss she was trying to negotiate with, when she was "captured" by another set of (potentially) friendly NPCs. The last "shot" of the session was my character being led away by the new people. I briefly took control of the NPC I had been separated from: the "camera" panned around a tree to see him turning away from my character and disappearing through the trees.
One small issue that cropped up was the problem of when to discuss numbers. Negotiating augments and similar takes a bit of time, and nudges you back into the rules system, which can be frustrating when you want to put a contest in the middle of a cool scene: it can take you out of the moment. From my point of view anyway, advice would be appreciated on that.
Um, back to the positive stuff. Before we started play, we discussed some changes to my character sheet. All of it was very cool: we established some new (reciprocal, yay!) relationships and a flaw for the character. Both of those things worked really nicely to turn her into a dynamic character - before she had been cool but somewhat "static", without any real internal conflict. Now she's invested in a number of possibly-contradictory things, and she's starting to feel like a real person.
All in all, it felt completely different from, and much cooler than, the old D&D version of our game: more open, with much more negotiation between player and GM, more creativity, and more fun.
I can't wait to play again!
Quote from: randomlingOne small issue that cropped up was the problem of when to discuss numbers. Negotiating augments and similar takes a bit of time, and nudges you back into the rules system, which can be frustrating when you want to put a contest in the middle of a cool scene: it can take you out of the moment. From my point of view anyway, advice would be appreciated on that.
Sounds like the game went well! Horay!
Speaking to this issue, I can say the following:
1. This gets faster with time. I've led 3 groups into the HQ system at this point, and the first session with the rules and new characters is always slow on the mechanical side. The Song of Ice and Fire HQ game I played the other night would average 10ish minutes for figuring out what the final target number for the PC was. It also always gets faster as you go. The Glorantha HQ game I'm currently running usually takes a minute, at most, for people to have their stuff together. Part of that is everyone gets to know the system, the characters, and their common augments – some of the players even write them down – and so there is less fuss and worry.
2. There are times when the build up is a good thing. The switch to the dice and system thinking can be used as a tension builder, and "oh my heaven, I need to make this roll!" moment. The trick to getting this effect is (especially when using a Simple Contest) to build the contest to the moment of maximum drama, and then call for the dice. It's a sort of scene long fortune in the middle I suppose -- you build things up until the moment where it's obvious that you can't go any further without things being decided, so that when you go to the dice you've already been able to demonstrate all the augments (Bankuei describes this below) and so that it's obvious that this roll is going to determine the fate of the scene.
3. I think that it's important to remember (related to both of the above) that HQ, while it is a simple and elegant system, isn't what traditionally gets called a light or transparent system – it is set up to have definite mechanical support and direction of action. Where many systems these days are built to disappear, making task resolution a non-thing that takes two seconds to roll out, HQ goes a different rout and assumes that when a contest is worth rolling it's worth making dramatic through the rules. Not, mind you, that every contest has to be a big stacking deal of 1001 Arabian Augments – but even a simple ability vs ability contest can take a bit longer than a task contest in a game like Buffy or Unknown Armies.
4. In the end you'll find ways that work for your group. Everyone I've ever met plays HQ a little differently from everyone else – doing extended contest differently, stringing simple contests, adding or removing crunch and special rules, limiting the number or type of augments that can be used in a roll, and so on. While you may want to play a couple more sessions straight, to get a feeling for things, if you find a system that works for your group, don't be afraid to use it.
Hi Lucy,
QuoteIn a highly linear game (like most Gamist games I've taken part in, where players want their character to be using every in-game moment to do something advantageous or useful) time jumps always seem to trigger long arguments about what PCs were doing in the intervening time.
In real life, things often happen that are outside of our control and understanding- and in that sense, making best use of your time makes sense. In rpgs- the events are controlled and triggered by the people at the table.
Many players, not just gamist, have been subjected to what I call the "GM Whammy", which ranges from railroading to abusive conflicts set up to harm the characters, often as a means to exert power or punish the actual players. Instead of acknowledging that the GM is the one producing the problem- most players then try to avert the danger by being overly cautious and paranoid in play.
When you don't have this abusive use of conflict- when its actually there to promote the style of play everyone's into- then players can learn to trust the GM to apply conflicts in an fun, and interesting manner. Time-jumps become very easy, because the players know they're going straight to the good stuff, and often GMs are willing to allow a little retroactive action on parts of the PCs. "Well, I would have brought rope if we're going mountain climbing!" "Makes sense. Ok."
QuoteOne small issue that cropped up was the problem of when to discuss numbers. Negotiating augments and similar takes a bit of time, and nudges you back into the rules system, which can be frustrating when you want to put a contest in the middle of a cool scene: it can take you out of the moment. From my point of view anyway, advice would be appreciated on that.
A useful technique, is to make each augment a "mini-action". That is, if you're trying to figure out what your final number is going to be for sword fighting, you have to narrate how it applies. You can't just say "I use agility", but instead, have to give an example, "He feints, I duck under the blade and move in!". Then do this for each augment. If you want to speed things up, allow 2 or 3 augments to be described in one sentence. It takes a little longer, but is much more entertaining. In this fashion- everything can be resolved as a simple contest but keeps all the color of an extended one.
Chris
Hi Brand,
Quote from: Brand_RobinsQuote from: randomlingOne small issue that cropped up was the problem of when to discuss numbers. Negotiating augments and similar takes a bit of time, and nudges you back into the rules system, which can be frustrating when you want to put a contest in the middle of a cool scene: it can take you out of the moment. From my point of view anyway, advice would be appreciated on that.
Sounds like the game went well! Horay!
It really did! (I keep saying to myself, I
like this game.
QuoteSpeaking to this issue, I can say the following:
1. This gets faster with time. I've led 3 groups into the HQ system at this point, and the first session with the rules and new characters is always slow on the mechanical side. The Song of Ice and Fire HQ game I played the other night would average 10ish minutes for figuring out what the final target number for the PC was. It also always gets faster as you go. The Glorantha HQ game I'm currently running usually takes a minute, at most, for people to have their stuff together. Part of that is everyone gets to know the system, the characters, and their common augments – some of the players even write them down – and so there is less fuss and worry.
OK, that's reassuring - looking back, I'm sure that some of the time it took was down to my unfamiliarity with the system. I mean, back when I started playing D&D, everything took forever, and nowadays I can calculate most things pretty quickly. So thinking logically, yeah, of course that's the case! (Good to be reminded of that. Thanks.)
Quote2. There are times when the build up is a good thing. The switch to the dice and system thinking can be used as a tension builder, and "oh my heaven, I need to make this roll!" moment. The trick to getting this effect is (especially when using a Simple Contest) to build the contest to the moment of maximum drama, and then call for the dice. It's a sort of scene long fortune in the middle I suppose -- you build things up until the moment where it's obvious that you can't go any further without things being decided, so that when you go to the dice you've already been able to demonstrate all the augments (Bankuei describes this below) and so that it's obvious that this roll is going to determine the fate of the scene.
Yeah, this is something I've experienced in other systems, and I can definitely see how that could be the case in HQ. I think this is the part that really hits the issue on the head - it was the timing of calling for the dice that we commented on during play. I think that's a good rule of thumb, holding off the role until it's really needed.
Quote3. I think that it's important to remember (related to both of the above) that HQ, while it is a simple and elegant system, isn't what traditionally gets called a light or transparent system – it is set up to have definite mechanical support and direction of action. Where many systems these days are built to disappear, making task resolution a non-thing that takes two seconds to roll out, HQ goes a different rout and assumes that when a contest is worth rolling it's worth making dramatic through the rules. Not, mind you, that every contest has to be a big stacking deal of 1001 Arabian Augments – but even a simple ability vs ability contest can take a bit longer than a task contest in a game like Buffy or Unknown Armies.
Yeah, it's definitely not "OK, roll your [whatever]" - it does make a big deal of it when you roll. We found ourselves playing quite freeform: we played for about two and a half hours, and I think in all that time there were two or three simple contests, even though there were a few tense situations that
could have been contests. That seemed to work quite nicely for us, though. Again, it's about dramatic moments, isn't it?
Quote4. In the end you'll find ways that work for your group. Everyone I've ever met plays HQ a little differently from everyone else – doing extended contest differently, stringing simple contests, adding or removing crunch and special rules, limiting the number or type of augments that can be used in a roll, and so on. While you may want to play a couple more sessions straight, to get a feeling for things, if you find a system that works for your group, don't be afraid to use it.
Yeah, we're still very much feeling our way around the system and seeing how it works and what it does. I think we are starting to figure out what works best for us though.
Thanks!
Hi Chris - thanks for your comments.
Quote from: Bankuei
In real life, things often happen that are outside of our control and understanding- and in that sense, making best use of your time makes sense. In rpgs- the events are controlled and triggered by the people at the table.
Many players, not just gamist, have been subjected to what I call the "GM Whammy", which ranges from railroading to abusive conflicts set up to harm the characters, often as a means to exert power or punish the actual players. Instead of acknowledging that the GM is the one producing the problem- most players then try to avert the danger by being overly cautious and paranoid in play.
When you don't have this abusive use of conflict- when its actually there to promote the style of play everyone's into- then players can learn to trust the GM to apply conflicts in an fun, and interesting manner. Time-jumps become very easy, because the players know they're going straight to the good stuff, and often GMs are willing to allow a little retroactive action on parts of the PCs. "Well, I would have brought rope if we're going mountain climbing!" "Makes sense. Ok."
That hits the nail on the head exactly, I think - thinking about it this is an abusive/dysfunctional play issue rather than a GNS issue or anything. Not that it impacted on play at all this session, all it did was cross my mind. (What was I doing in that gap of a week? Oh, right - nothing important.)
QuoteQuoteOne small issue that cropped up was the problem of when to discuss numbers. Negotiating augments and similar takes a bit of time, and nudges you back into the rules system, which can be frustrating when you want to put a contest in the middle of a cool scene: it can take you out of the moment. From my point of view anyway, advice would be appreciated on that.
A useful technique, is to make each augment a "mini-action". That is, if you're trying to figure out what your final number is going to be for sword fighting, you have to narrate how it applies. You can't just say "I use agility", but instead, have to give an example, "He feints, I duck under the blade and move in!". Then do this for each augment. If you want to speed things up, allow 2 or 3 augments to be described in one sentence. It takes a little longer, but is much more entertaining. In this fashion- everything can be resolved as a simple contest but keeps all the color of an extended one.
Ooh, that's a really cool idea. I'll have to make sure I try and use that in the next session!
Oh cool, discussion already. Here's a bit of info on the PC. Lucy, do feel free to shout me down with anything I'm getting wrong.
Lady Katrin of Clan Baden of House Baden
A redheaded Dornish resistance fighter, born in Baden's Bluff, currently commanding a human outpost inside the border of the Elven Forest Erethor. She's the heir of Baden, one of the few Dornish Houses that still survive and fight the Shadow.
Keywords: Dorn 2w, Lord 7w
Some highlights: Sword Combat 2w2, Maintain Cover Identity 7w, Honourable 12w, Soft-Hearted 12w, Fear Sacnoths 8w, My Hands Take Pain Away 3w (common magic)
Prominent relationships:
To Captain Bernt, commander of the next outpost to the north and Katrin's one-time employer:
Healthy Respect for Bernt 17 - Relied Upon by Bernt 3w
To Lord Arrenu, once a Sarcosan freerider who Katrin has had a brief fiery affair with four or five years ago (pre-play); when she met him again recently (in play) he was undead but didn't try to eat anyone:
Unsure about Arrenu 3w - Revered by Arrenu 1w(?)
To Tam Allin, originally her bodyguard:
Lover of Tam 3w - Loved to Distraction by Tam 3w
Following Mike's advice in an earlier thread, I also gave her Member of Jez's Band at 2w2. (The other PC will get this, too, to give them a nice augment whenever the characters are together.)
Jez was Lucy's previous, much-loved PC. When Jez died heroically and tragically, the other players voted to call their group Jez's Band. Katrin now wields the sword Jez forged.
We did most of the conversion in a separate session before Christmas, and added on the Relationships and Flaws this time. We both keep being wowed by how the character (who was cool already in DnD) suddenly leaps off the page at you in HeroQuest.
Description of the session next.
The scenes:
1 - A couple of months or so after the Captain's Meet at which lady Katrin was officially voted commander of the outpost she (and other PCs) retook from the orcs, in Captain Bernt's old command hut in Dargham's Folly.
Katrin, Bernt.
Bernt is looking about ten years younger than he used to; his outpost is in quite good repair now; there are lots of new faces around and everybody looks much healthier and better fed. Katrin smiles to herself, thinking, "We did that."
Katrin and Bernt exchange news. Katrin has consolidated her hold over the outpost. The Shadow's Terror squads have been sighted overflying the Forest. A strategic Elven Council is coming up; whether humans will be admitted to it is uncertain. Katrin and Bernt discuss whether they can drum up human forces to relieve the Keep of the Cataracts, a stronghold held by Elves that straddles the Felthera River but is under siege by orcs. They are hoping that if they can do this, they will gain better leverage for their attempts to improve the situation for the humans, who keep being restricted to the dangerous outskirts of the Forest by the Elves.
Bernt suggests that if Katrin openly claims her title as heir of the House of Baden, this might give her a chance to get onto an upcoming strategic Elven Council (edit: this will be necesssary to pitch the idea of humans relieving the Keep - they have to get the Elves' permission to even go that deep into the Forest). Katrin is reluctant.
Bernt says that there appears to be some dispute going on between local Wood Elves and the Snow Elves in the north. No Snow Elves have been seen around here for quite some time. He asks her to meet "an old friend of his" who may know more. Katrin decides to trust him and agrees.
2 - A little later, a hut in Darghams Folly.
Katrin and Tam.
"So that's how we'll do it," Katrin says. She's been telling Tam she'll be away for a little while and giving him instructions for the outpost. Tam makes a bit of a scene about never seeing her anymore. Katrin promises to take him home to Baden's Bluff for some time away from the Forest, after this matter with the Keep has been dealt with. We fade away from their kiss.
3 - The next morning, a misty bit of forest.
Katrin and Bernt with packs on, wandering down a path.
Katrin almost feels she's about to get through Bernt's mysteriousness when they are intercepted by a furious Ortemia, another Dorn veteran and leader of an orcmen guerrilla band (and occasional lover of Bernt). Ortemia tells Bernt he's out of his mind to be going where he's going, and Katrin she doesn't know what she's doing trusting him. After a bit of back and forth Katrin simply leaves Ortemia standing arguing, and steps around her on the path.
4 - A while later, forest paths.
Katrin and Bernt, Ortemia, then Katrin and Ortemia.
Ortemia tags behind, fuming, until Katrin falls back and talks to her alone. Ortemia warns Katrin that Bernt is likely to be meeting Snow Elves, which might be detected by the Wood Elves through the spirits of the trees. She tells Katrin Bernt's mithril leg has been forged by the White Witch, who likely has Bernt under "her cold Elven spell". She also drops hints of an old enmity between Bernt and a northern resistance fighter, the Dornish prince Roland Redguard, apparently over a woman. She says Bernt must be going out of his mind to get involved in northern affairs again.
Katrin thanks Ortemia and bids her farewell, and moves on.
5 - Forest paths.
Katrin, then Katrin and Bernt.
By the time Katrin gets into earshot from Bernt, he's been found by a giant hunting spider who's tripped him (apparently a scattered survivor of a spider/demon colony Katrin destroyed a while ago). The spider is getting ready to pour a glob of paralysing slime on Bernt as Katrin comes crashing through the undergrowth and slides in dramatically on her back, lunging upwards with her sword. The tip of her sword cuts through gristle and hair, the spider scuttles off leaving a bit of goo on the blade. Bernt is grumpy (and secretly embarrassed).
6 - Night.
Bernt and Katrin sitting across a campfire in stubborn Dornish silence.
The campfire, being poked at with a stick.
Katrin sitting and wiping her sword down, Bernt rolled up in his blanket with his back to her.
7 - The next day.
Katrin and Bernt, hacking their way through a field of brambles.
Bernt swears and grumbles, Katrin has strange flashes of vision – a sudden feeling of dread; a snarling, snapping crimson wolf jaw as her sword (Jez's sword) cuts through some brambles.
(In a previous scenario, Jez and other PCs had run into Elven Forest defences that started with increasing brambliness of the Forest, with a pack of wolves closing in later to deal with the exhausted and closed-in intruders.)
8 - Evening: a dirty, sweaty Bernt pushing branches aside to reveal a smooth, dull black rock face in a hillside. It looks rather like magic portal stones the PCs have found in other locations in the past.
Katrin and Bernt hoist themselves up the hillside into a nest-like place and settle down.
9 - Night: Katrin dreams.
The Jester, sidekick of Katrin's former (now undead) lover Lord Arrenu, dances and skips, mocking and chanting cryptic things like he tends to in waking life. "Do you read your letters – or do you letter your readers?"
(Katrin has been getting letters from Arrenu lately, with intelligence from orc-controlled plains east of the Forest.)
The dream changes; there's Arrenu in the room she last saw him in, with her back to her, saying "The sea is full of stars." Katrin cries out "Arrenu!" just as a heavy, gloved hand falls on her shoulder and she starts from her dream. It's Bernt. His friend has arrived.
10 - Half-moon night:
Katrin, Bernt, Nollorn.
Bernt's friend is a young-looking snow elf who introduces himself as Nollorn. Nollorn says the Snow Elves need someone who will speak in their favour in the upcoming Council. Apparently he Show Elves are currently "doing what they must to survive", sandwiched as they are between the core Forest and the orcs tribes in the North. Katrin assures him she understands if he's alluding to collaborating: she's from Baden's Bluff, she knows what surviving under the Shadow means. Nollorn doesn't confirm her and is vague on the details. There's talk between him and Bernt in Elven, which Katrin doesn't speak.
Katrin asks Nollorn to take her to his leader to learn more. Nollorn is reluctant. again he talks to Bernt in Elven. Katrin talks to him eloquently and at length, but can't quite succeed: just as Nollorn seems almost swayed, they are interrupted by the approach of a Wood Elf patrol. Nollorn melts away after making hasty arrangements for Katrin to return when the moon is full.
11 - The nightly forest, crickets, the full moon sliding behind a cloud.
Katrin, more warmly dressed, at the black portal stone, smiling back at Bernt: "Not coming?" There is a shiver, Katrin leans back and melts effortlessly into the stone...
12 - Dancing snow, darkness.
Katrin, Nollorn.
Katrin stumbles backwards, a bit of snow reaches out to steady her: ice-white Nollorn. He hastily informs her he couldn't bring her quite to where he wanted but they'll merely have to run over that ridge there, a mile or so - and starts running as dogs bark and men shout in the close distance.
Katrin struggles uphill after him. The last thing she sees of Nollorn as the pack of dogs catches up with her is the avalanche of snow he triggers as he swings himself up into a snow-laden tree and out of sight.
13 - Directly afterwards, same location.
Katrin, ringed by dogs and variously armed Dorns on horses.
No one looks like a Legate, no orcs are in sight. Katrin decides to take her chances.
"I am Lady Katrin of Baden of Baden's Bluff. I command you to stand down!"
Challenged to surrender herself and her sword and accused of being "with the evil white Elf", she tears an amulet from her throat and throws it into the snow as a counter-challenge.
Men push dogs aside and scramble in the snow. The amulet is reached up, wiped off, examined. Cautious respect follows. The two sides agree that Katrin will go with the patrol, to be questioned by the local leader, Roland.
14 - Directly afterwards, same location.
Nollorn, pressed against a tree, hears the humans move off, and runs lightly across the snow, heading in the opposite direction.
Comments to follow.
We picked up in mid-campaign, a couple of months after the last scenario.
(That last scenario was odd in itself: officially we were still playing DnD, but the entire session was about political power play, so we basically didn't have any support from the system and were flying freeform. Both players got quite excited about it anyway, once they realised that the rewards from their two most recent victories were at stake: at a human Captains' Meet dominated by Elven "advisors", they had to fight tooth and nail to be officially appointed commanders of one military outpost and a magical/holy site that they had conquered. That was a great session, but I sigh to think how good it would have been to have HQ rules support to help us along...
Anyway, off tangent.)
I'd expanded my R-map to include established NPCs' allegiances and goals regarding the greater political factions. If the other player had been there, play would likely have gravitated around the local power struggle (and some details of my R-map) a great deal more: the other player plays an Elf and both players have tended to have their PCs gravitate towards each other. As it turned out, the other player called off sick at the last moment, so it was Lucy alone. This took the game off in quite a different direction from what usually happens, with Katrin happily off on discoveries of her own.
Goes to show how liberating it is to kick free of "what would suit the entire group" thinking. I do hope we can get the other player to come round to occasional solo PCing when he comes back.
Also for me as the GM, it showed how easy it is to wing along in this system. We were off most of my list of prepared bangs (and kinda off the more detailed bits of the R-map) ten minutes into the game.
I'd expected that once I knew the other player wasn't coming. I didn't have time to re-prepare, so I stared in shock for a heartbeat or two when he called - then shrugged.
It's not DnD, baby! No hours to spend statting up stuff!
(Then of course the solo player for the night being Lucy, I already knew from past experience that I could count on her to help me out if I ever was stunted for how to go on. Knowing that helped a lot.)
Resolution: As Lucy has said, we didn't roll a lot of contests. We resolved most things by simply playing out a conclusion that looked natural. IIRC the two only contests were:
- Katrin defending Bernt against the spider (minor victory);
- Katrin talking Nollorn into taking here to his leader (marginal defeat, no HP spent). I started out by having the Wood Elven patrol interrupting them just as Nollorn was about to agree, then moments later I realised there was potential for a much more interesting (for Katrin) development... hence her being later intercepted by Roland's men.
(I wish I could have remembered that the local captains were going to talk about raising a human force to relieve the Keep - I could have inserted a scene about that at this point, with some other nice complications potentially. Well, can't do everything all at once, I suppose.)
Regarding contests, on the whole we are currently far too excited about experimenting with the film scene style, with swapping narrative power in some moments (we're getting incredibly fast at negotiating this, too) and with finally being able to concentrate on the story to bother overly much with the support the system provides. I expect we may get into a slightly more contest-y mindset once things get more dramatic and desperate (this was a bit of a setup for future conflicts, after all...).
Also I guess we both have a well-engrained habit of ignoring system; well, we were playing DnD and not using it a large part of the time because using it simply wouldn't have worked for what we were doing.
To give credit where credit's due, I started using film scenes in the Midnight game after Lucy ran a Feng Shui "Jackie Chan" one-shot for me a while ago, which was fabulous fun (also I believe the first time we experimented with swapping narrative power).
As Lucy says, using film scenes helps us both to focus on what's cool and dramatic, and it makes negotiating narrative power much easier as well, I think that must be because the elements of a film scene are much more clearly defined somehow than a those of a scene played out in the traditional RPG way. There's no, "Well, so I go to the smithy." - "Well, so you get there and the door is open." - "So I walk in and say, Greetings, Master Smith, greetings..."
Instead, we get Lucy having Katrin say, "So that's what how we'll do it," to Tam at the beginning of their scene. Or, "Not coming?" to Bernt - thereby also establishing that she wants Bernt to stay behind. Or deciding Katrin's kissing Tam like he's never been kissed to end the scene, rather than having her say goodbye and walking her back over to Bernt's command hut to tell him that now she's set to go.
Katrin's dream was entirely framed by Lucy, except she asked me to supply the Jester's words, telling me she wanted him to say something cryptic in his usual style; and I added Katrin crying out Arrenu's name (with her permission) because I knew I wanted her to wake up with a start.
Thinking in scenes also makes it much easier for us to negotiate around bookeeping for possessions (something we both have learnt to hate with a passion, in high-level DnD). So we were constantly doing things like, "Are we taking horses?" - "Hm I think this scene looks cooler on foot. You might still have your horses later if the story demands it, ok?"
Or: "Can I have some sort of insignia?" - "Hm ok, sounds cool. Go ahead." (So Lucy decided Katrin was throwing down something she's been wearing around her throat, to be picked up by Roland's men. For that scene we didn't even need to negotiate what exactly it would look like. That might yet come up though.)
This filmy stuff is fantastic, it's so much more story-efficient and soo much more fun. And also it reminds us all the time that what the PCs are supposed to do is look cool. Even when they fail. Which helps us in deciding how to frame Contests and state goals, and helps me narrate Consequences that are funa nd appropriate. So it looks like one of our other favourite recent discoveries is meshing wonderfully well with our new favourite system, HeroQuest.
Quote from: Brand_RobinsThe Song of Ice and Fire HQ game I played the other night would average 10ish minutes for figuring out what the final target number for the PC was.
We might have taken about ten minutes I reckon, but we were taking our time negotiating which augments came into the contest and how - it was really cool to see Katrin's "signature style" beginning to develop.
QuoteThere are times when the build up is a good thing. The switch to the dice and system thinking can be used as a tension builder, and "oh my heaven, I need to make this roll!" moment. The trick to getting this effect is (especially when using a Simple Contest) to build the contest to the moment of maximum drama, and then call for the dice.
Thanks, that's very useful to know - and it makes eminent sense to me looking at it from the "film scene" angle: the moment to reach for the dice is when the scene goes to slo-mo for the dramatic climax (so we actually have time to leave the screen alone for a moment and do the calculating stuff).
Maybe we'll be more eager for Contests once we get a good feel for the timing. Takes practice, I suppose. But (at least for me) this was a really,
really marginal problem. I'm liking this system a lot already, even though I'm not actually good yet at running it.
QuoteI think that it's important to remember (related to both of the above) that HQ, while it is a simple and elegant system, isn't what traditionally gets called a light or transparent system – it is set up to have definite mechanical support and direction of action. Where many systems these days are built to disappear, making task resolution a non-thing that takes two seconds to roll out, HQ goes a different rout and assumes that when a contest is worth rolling it's worth making dramatic through the rules.
That's what it feels like, yes. Hm. That'll likely become another aspect we'll look at in future scenes, I'm thinking: do we or don't we want to place focus on a moment by making it a Contest? What do you think, Lucy?
QuoteWhile you may want to play a couple more sessions straight, to get a feeling for things, if you find a system that works for your group, don't be afraid to use it.
I'm definitely in favour of giving the system a chance. I have to admit we have already fiddled with it slightly, what with the two-sided Relationships, and a magic system greatly reduced in complexity to make it feel more like Tolkien and less like Glorantha, but we're trying to use the resolution mechanic as such (when we can remember it's there...).
We should try and get an Extended Contest in again soon, Lucy - I'm eager to try out those shiny new poker chips!
Quote from: BankueiWhen you don't have this abusive use of conflict- when its actually there to promote the style of play everyone's into- then players can learn to trust the GM to apply conflicts in an fun, and interesting manner. Time-jumps become very easy, because the players know they're going straight to the good stuff, and often GMs are willing to allow a little retroactive action on parts of the PCs. "Well, I would have brought rope if we're going mountain climbing!" "Makes sense. Ok."
Hm yes. When our group still contained two highly paranoid and traumatised players, I introduced "Item Points", which players could spend to give the character one reasonable item per session (reasonable in terms of either "Surely I would have brought X?" or "I'm sure there would be an Y lying around somewhere handy?"). That showed I was prepared to give them control of this bit of world, helped to reduce the feverishness of some people's items bookkeeping, and contributed to bringing one player out of his post-traumatic freeze. It was DnD of course. In HeroQuest we'll all have a much easier time negotiating for on-the-spot items because the system as such doesn't require every item to be noted down on the character sheet.
Quote from: randomlingOK, that's reassuring - looking back, I'm sure that some of the time it took was down to my unfamiliarity with the system. I mean, back when I started playing D&D, everything took forever, and nowadays I can calculate most things pretty quickly.
Plus it's more fun to do augments in HeroQuest than calculating stuff in DnD, at least to my mind. That's because in HQ the info on a character sheet actually says something meaningful about the character - and the augments you use say something about what the situation means to the character and what issues she is addressing in dealing with it.
Although I do agree that the augments discussions got into the way of our playing the scenes a bit. We'll know how to time that better in the future.
Quote from: randomlingQuote
A useful technique, is to make each augment a "mini-action". That is, if you're trying to figure out what your final number is going to be for sword fighting, you have to narrate how it applies. You can't just say "I use agility", but instead, have to give an example, "He feints, I duck under the blade and move in!". Then do this for each augment. If you want to speed things up, allow 2 or 3 augments to be described in one sentence. It takes a little longer, but is much more entertaining. In this fashion- everything can be resolved as a simple contest but keeps all the color of an extended one.
Ooh, that's a really cool idea. I'll have to make sure I try and use that in the next session!
Hey, but you did already! At least to some extent, when you narrated how Katrin slid in to rescue Bernt from the spider, and talked to Nollorn at length before we started thinking about the details of the Contest. Many augments were already there in your descriptions and dialogue. Then you added a few more in our negotiations for augments. Next time we'll try to be more consistent, that's all. (And I do mean both of us, I'm sure I didn't narrate all of the spider's nasty little augments before we rolled those dice!)
Damn, missed giving out half the good advice. ;-)
Several things left to be said, however...
[list=1]
- "Time Jumps" are just a part of what we call Scene Framing. It's a very standard technique herabouts. Like Chris said, if you're co-operating with the Narrator, then why would you worry about "missing" something? The narrator's job, as we say a lot at the Forge, is to facilitate play. Certainly not to obstruct play, but as much, not to be an opponent of the players. There are valid gamism formats that work that way, but that then requires entirely different techniques. In the collaborative story mode, the narrator is your aide. They're helping you get where you need to be.
- Augmenting is cool. Consider. It doesn't matter whether or not you win or lose contests in HQ. Oh, sure, we're all rooting for the good guy, but it's just as fun when they fail. So what are contests about? They're about seeing why the contest is relevant to the character.
So think about this when augmenting - the idea is not to pile up the biggest pile, allow yourself a greater liklihood of loosing, if it means speeding play up and not dredging the sheet for augments. Instead, look for the stuff that people are going to go, "Coool" about when you mention them. As in, "That's right, you've got a relationship with his mother! Cooool." Augments are all about "see how cool my character is in this context?" This segue's nicely into the next point.
- It's the narrator's job to be looking for contests in which the character is cool. That is, if you think that it's going to be easy for the character to find augments, then find a way to get that contest going. The best contests, take all of Brand's advice, and are long, but interesting because of the large number of augments that are really applicable. The best are always when the character piles up a higher total TN than ever before, and didn't have to scrape a lot to do it.
- It's very HQ to have few contests. Only had one I think in my session last night (unusual, but...). This is a feature of HQ. It only requires you to roll when things are really dramatically important, not when you're "supposed to" roll. Yes, this is a rule - Automatic Success says that if a hero should succeed at it, they simply do. You're supposed to roll only when it's cool to do so.
What's more interesting than this, however, is how the "threat" or potential of a roll at any point keeps players informed by the system. For all it seems freeform, think to yourself how well the character enumeration directed play. For instance, HQ doesn't require players to play their personality traits, but I find them playing them in HQ more than in other games, ironically. Because the player isn't fighting the character sheet, the player is informed by it.
So the system is working subtley, even when you're not using resolution. And you'll use it more at times, for more complex things when it's time. Community support, rituals, Heroquests, hero bands...which reminds me.
- I made a mistake just to show you guys that I don't know everything about playing this game. That is, I suggested before that you take a relationship to the group. I take that back. What I should have said is that you should come up with a Hero Band! One of the most important, yet overlooked parts of the game. By one reading of the rules, every group starts with one. But even if they don't, that's fine, they can work into one. But here's the point - the group in question needs to be a Hero Band desperately, and use the Hero Band rules.
Namely the group needs a guardian, and I'll bet you can come up with one instantly if you think about it. Some object or something that symbolizes the whole group? (it's the sword, damnit!!!) What happens, then, is that the group gets three interesting abilties based on this in addition to the relationship. Which is so cool I can't stand it. :-) Check these rules out, and employ them like before last game started if you can.
- You like the game? Cool, that's supposed to happen in RPGs. ;-)
- Kerstin, Lucy's character is so ready to get stomped. I have a character for her in my game. If you don't stomp her in yours, I'm going to stomp her in mine... :-)
- "kissing Tam like he's never been kissed" So do I get credit for fixing the bothaya? Huh? Just kidding!
- "When our group still contained two highly paranoid and traumatised players" I thought it still did? Just kidding!
Kidding aside, a great way to teach people that contests aren't about winning or losing is simply to allow them to win. Give people everything that they "picked up back when I was in town." Heck, if the player says, "And then my army comes around the corner," your response should be, "An army, cool. Where'd you get an army?" Then roll to see if the army is feeling like moving today using the community support rules (turns out that army is only worth a +7 or so).
Or, better yet, give your player an ability of "Well Equipped" and let him roll against that for variable augments.
- I'm glad you're having fun. It's great to have independent recognition that our advice here works. :-)[/list:o]Mike
Hiya Mike, always nice to get your input! :)
Quote from: Mike Holmes
"Time Jumps" are just a part of what we call Scene Framing. It's a very standard technique herabouts. Like Chris said, if you're co-operating with the Narrator, then why would you worry about "missing" something? The narrator's job, as we say a lot at the Forge, is to facilitate play. Certainly not to obstruct play, but as much, not to be an opponent of the players. There are valid gamism formats that work that way, but that then requires entirely different techniques. In the collaborative story mode, the narrator is your aide. They're helping you get where you need to be.
I heartily agree, and it was fantastic to experience that in play. Kerstin's always been a facilitator GM rather than an opponent GM, but - surprise surprise! - D&D had a tough time supporting our style of play in that regard. Collaborating with the GM, as opposed to fighting with them, is always wonderful for me.
QuoteAugmenting is cool. Consider. It doesn't matter whether or not you win or lose contests in HQ. Oh, sure, we're all rooting for the good guy, but it's just as fun when they fail. So what are contests about? They're about seeing why the contest is relevant to the character.
So think about this when augmenting - the idea is not to pile up the biggest pile, allow yourself a greater liklihood of loosing, if it means speeding play up and not dredging the sheet for augments. Instead, look for the stuff that people are going to go, "Coool" about when you mention them. As in, "That's right, you've got a relationship with his mother! Cooool." Augments are all about "see how cool my character is in this context?" This segue's nicely into the next point.
Okay: to a certain extent I guess I still have that D&D-instilled "need to succeed" whenever we roll dice. That tendency in myself annoys me a bit and I'm casting around for a new mindset. This pretty much looks like the right one! More than anything, I want Katrin to be a cool protagonist, and I think I love her more than any character I've had before (except maybe her predecessor, Jez, which just goes to show that D&D can't
completely kill a cool game.
QuoteIt's the narrator's job to be looking for contests in which the character is cool. That is, if you think that it's going to be easy for the character to find augments, then find a way to get that contest going. The best contests, take all of Brand's advice, and are long, but interesting because of the large number of augments that are really applicable. The best are always when the character piles up a higher total TN than ever before, and didn't have to scrape a lot to do it.
Can I do that as a player too? Please? [grin]
Actually, the very end of last night's session was a prime example of a moment that I wanted a contest but for some reason decided not to ask for one. It was the first moment since I started playing her that Katrin had stepped up, announced her heritage, and essentially "pulled rank" on a number of her people. I would have loved to make that a contest, to "show off" the abilities in her Lord keyword, most of which were nonexistent in the D&D version of the character. It was a big moment of change for the character IMO, very dramatic for me at least, and somehow I would have liked to mark it with a contest.
But maybe that's not what you're getting at?
QuoteIt's very HQ to have few contests. Only had one I think in my session last night (unusual, but...). This is a feature of HQ. It only requires you to roll when things are really dramatically important, not when you're "supposed to" roll. Yes, this is a rule - Automatic Success says that if a hero should succeed at it, they simply do. You're supposed to roll only when it's cool to do so.
What's more interesting than this, however, is how the "threat" or potential of a roll at any point keeps players informed by the system. For all it seems freeform, think to yourself how well the character enumeration directed play. For instance, HQ doesn't require players to play their personality traits, but I find them playing them in HQ more than in other games, ironically. Because the player isn't fighting the character sheet, the player is informed by it.
So the system is working subtley, even when you're not using resolution. And you'll use it more at times, for more complex things when it's time. Community support, rituals, Heroquests, hero bands...which reminds me.
Yeah, yeah, I see exactly what you mean by this. In D&D, Katrin was a concept in my head and a set of words and numbers on a piece of paper, and in some respects the two were wildly different. Blech. In HQ, the Katrin in my head and the Katrin on paper are the same person. So of course I play the things on my character sheet, because what I wrote on the character sheet was exactly what I wanted for the character in every respect.
(Except for the "I ran out of abilities!" problem, although I'll be rectifying that with Hero Points slowly over the course of the game.)
QuoteI made a mistake just to show you guys that I don't know everything about playing this game. That is, I suggested before that you take a relationship to the group. I take that back. What I should have said is that you should come up with a Hero Band! One of the most important, yet overlooked parts of the game. By one reading of the rules, every group starts with one. But even if they don't, that's fine, they can work into one. But here's the point - the group in question needs to be a Hero Band desperately, and use the Hero Band rules.
Namely the group needs a guardian, and I'll bet you can come up with one instantly if you think about it. Some object or something that symbolizes the whole group? (it's the sword, damnit!!!) What happens, then, is that the group gets three interesting abilties based on this in addition to the relationship. Which is so cool I can't stand it. :-) Check these rules out, and employ them like before last game started if you can.
OK, I don't even know what the hero band rules are, but I really, really love the idea of Katrin-and-Jez's sword being or containing a guardian for the group. It rocks. I literally want to bounce around the room with excitement! (Of course, Kerstin may disagree with me utterly. But I love it.)
QuoteYou like the game? Cool, that's supposed to happen in RPGs. ;-)
I know. I've liked games before, but this is actually filling me with excitement I didn't know I could have! It feels completely different from the D&D version of the game. I was prepared to make a creative investment into Kerstin's game like I hadn't in any other, even when it was a D&D game, but now it seems like my incentive to invest has been stepped up a good deal. And I love it like this.
(Is that tragic? I know my mother is about to start ranting that I'm getting too obsessed with my fantasies, or something....)
QuoteKerstin, Lucy's character is so ready to get stomped. I have a character for her in my game. If you don't stomp her in yours, I'm going to stomp her in mine... :-)
Heeeeey! :(
Seriously, I do think that Katrin's story is going to need some kind of crushing defeat at some point in the near future. I'm not sure what the nature of it is just yet, but it'll be cool, no doubt. (I don't want her to die from it, but permanently scarred would work. After all, this is LotR based. If I'm going to win, I have to hit rock bottom first.)
Quote"kissing Tam like he's never been kissed" So do I get credit for fixing the bothaya? Huh? Just kidding!
LOL!
Quote"When our group still contained two highly paranoid and traumatised players" I thought it still did? Just kidding!
Kidding aside, a great way to teach people that contests aren't about winning or losing is simply to allow them to win. Give people everything that they "picked up back when I was in town." Heck, if the player says, "And then my army comes around the corner," your response should be, "An army, cool. Where'd you get an army?" Then roll to see if the army is feeling like moving today using the community support rules (turns out that army is only worth a +7 or so).
Or, better yet, give your player an ability of "Well Equipped" and let him roll against that for variable augments.
Hm, cool ideas. The "army" thing struck me as interesting, mostly because one of Katrin's major goals is to acquire an army with which to attempt to do serious harm to the Shadow.
QuoteI'm glad you're having fun. It's great to have independent recognition that our advice here works. :-)
Like a charm, it would seem!
Quote from: StalkingBlue
8 - Evening: a dirty, sweaty Bernt pushing branches aside to reveal a smooth, dull black rock face in a hillside. It looks rather like magic portal stones the PCs have found in other locations in the past.
Katrin and Bernt hoist themselves up the hillside into a nest-like place and settle down.
Just wanted to comment on the coolest moment in that scene for me: Katrin standing up and surveying the vast expanse of forest around her. I narrated the camera zooming out to show the hugeness of the forest, until Katrin herself was invisible in the wilderness...
Quote9 - Night: Katrin dreams.
The Jester, sidekick of Katrin's former (now undead) lover Lord Arrenu, dances and skips, mocking and chanting cryptic things like he tends to in waking life. "Do you read your letters – or do you letter your readers?"
(Katrin has been getting letters from Arrenu lately, with intelligence from orc-controlled plains east of the Forest.)
The dream changes; there's Arrenu in the room she last saw him in, with her back to her, saying "The sea is full of stars." Katrin cries out "Arrenu!" just as a heavy, gloved hand falls on her shoulder and she starts from her dream. It's Bernt. His friend has arrived.
IIRC, the other phrase the Jester used was, "Do you write to your friends - or do you befriend the writing?"
The other cool thing was a couple of characters referring to the Pellurian Sea, near which Katrin was born and raised, as the Sea of Stars. That came completely out of that line, "The sea is full of stars." Added a whole new dimension to Arrenu, which I'll look forward to exploring.
I think that's all I wanted to comment on about this post...
Quote from: StalkingBlue
I'd expanded my R-map to include established NPCs' allegiances and goals regarding the greater political factions. If the other player had been there, play would likely have gravitated around the local power struggle (and some details of my R-map) a great deal more: the other player plays an Elf and both players have tended to have their PCs gravitate towards each other. As it turned out, the other player called off sick at the last moment, so it was Lucy alone. This took the game off in quite a different direction from what usually happens, with Katrin happily off on discoveries of her own.
I'm not sure if this will sound terribly selfish, but I actually relished having a session "all to myself". With the other player there, I guess I wouldn't even think of haring off away from the established campaign to do the sorts of things that are important to Katrin and her goals. It felt pretty liberating to me to be able to do that.
QuoteGoes to show how liberating it is to kick free of "what would suit the entire group" thinking. I do hope we can get the other player to come round to occasional solo PCing when he comes back.
Me too - it kind of seems to me that Katrin and Apari might have rather a lot to do on their own separate journeys.
QuoteAlso for me as the GM, it showed how easy it is to wing along in this system. We were off most of my list of prepared bangs (and kinda off the more detailed bits of the R-map) ten minutes into the game.
I'd expected that once I knew the other player wasn't coming. I didn't have time to re-prepare, so I stared in shock for a heartbeat or two when he called - then shrugged.
It's not DnD, baby! No hours to spend statting up stuff!
(Then of course the solo player for the night being Lucy, I already knew from past experience that I could count on her to help me out if I ever was stunted for how to go on. Knowing that helped a lot.)
Yeah, we've got a pretty good basis for trust established, one way and another, and when the two of us game alone together we seem to do the "creative collaboration" thing really well.
QuoteResolution: As Lucy has said, we didn't roll a lot of contests. We resolved most things by simply playing out a conclusion that looked natural. IIRC the two only contests were:
- Katrin defending Bernt against the spider (minor victory);
- Katrin talking Nollorn into taking here to his leader (marginal defeat, no HP spent). I started out by having the Wood Elven patrol interrupting them just as Nollorn was about to agree, then moments later I realised there was potential for a much more interesting (for Katrin) development... hence her being later intercepted by Roland's men.
(I wish I could have remembered that the local captains were going to talk about raising a human force to relieve the Keep - I could have inserted a scene about that at this point, with some other nice complications potentially. Well, can't do everything all at once, I suppose.)
Regarding contests, on the whole we are currently far too excited about experimenting with the film scene style, with swapping narrative power in some moments (we're getting incredibly fast at negotiating this, too) and with finally being able to concentrate on the story to bother overly much with the support the system provides. I expect we may get into a slightly more contest-y mindset once things get more dramatic and desperate (this was a bit of a setup for future conflicts, after all...).
Also I guess we both have a well-engrained habit of ignoring system; well, we were playing DnD and not using it a large part of the time because using it simply wouldn't have worked for what we were doing.
To give credit where credit's due, I started using film scenes in the Midnight game after Lucy ran a Feng Shui "Jackie Chan" one-shot for me a while ago, which was fabulous fun (also I believe the first time we experimented with swapping narrative power).
Yup; I'm in agreement with all of that. I borrowed the "film scene style" from a wonderful GM I played with when on holiday in the US this summer, and it worked so well in his games I thought I'd hijack it for mine. That style seems to be developing into a more and more central part of the way we game, and I really think it works well.
QuoteAs Lucy says, using film scenes helps us both to focus on what's cool and dramatic, and it makes negotiating narrative power much easier as well, I think that must be because the elements of a film scene are much more clearly defined somehow than a those of a scene played out in the traditional RPG way. There's no, "Well, so I go to the smithy." - "Well, so you get there and the door is open." - "So I walk in and say, Greetings, Master Smith, greetings..."
Instead, we get Lucy having Katrin say, "So that's what how we'll do it," to Tam at the beginning of their scene. Or, "Not coming?" to Bernt - thereby also establishing that she wants Bernt to stay behind. Or deciding Katrin's kissing Tam like he's never been kissed to end the scene, rather than having her say goodbye and walking her back over to Bernt's command hut to tell him that now she's set to go.
I have to say, I love those moments of what I think I'll call "active framing": just jumping into scenes at what I think (or Kerstin thinks) is the dramatic or otherwise pertinent moment, usually without much discussion. Sometimes it feels more like improv drama than an RPG, but in a way that's cool, and it doesn't seem to wander off the story. We manage to jump into the scene, accomplish or establish what we need to, and jump out again. No guff.
QuoteKatrin's dream was entirely framed by Lucy, except she asked me to supply the Jester's words, telling me she wanted him to say something cryptic in his usual style; and I added Katrin crying out Arrenu's name (with her permission) because I knew I wanted her to wake up with a start.
The dream sequence was a great bit of creative collaboration and negotiation, I thought, and it had echoes of other dimensions that I'm sure will come up at the right moment.
QuoteThinking in scenes also makes it much easier for us to negotiate around bookeeping for possessions (something we both have learnt to hate with a passion, in high-level DnD). So we were constantly doing things like, "Are we taking horses?" - "Hm I think this scene looks cooler on foot. You might still have your horses later if the story demands it, ok?"
Or: "Can I have some sort of insignia?" - "Hm ok, sounds cool. Go ahead." (So Lucy decided Katrin was throwing down something she's been wearing around her throat, to be picked up by Roland's men. For that scene we didn't even need to negotiate what exactly it would look like. That might yet come up though.)
I'm sure it will! It'll very likely be relevant next session, I reckon... what do you think?
QuoteThis filmy stuff is fantastic, it's so much more story-efficient and soo much more fun. And also it reminds us all the time that what the PCs are supposed to do is look cool. Even when they fail. Which helps us in deciding how to frame Contests and state goals, and helps me narrate Consequences that are funa nd appropriate. So it looks like one of our other favourite recent discoveries is meshing wonderfully well with our new favourite system, HeroQuest.
Yes, you hit the nail squarely on the head there. Looking cool is the key, and the film scene style really helps us to realize that and make our gamr work.
Did I mention I
like this game? [grin]
Quote from: StalkingBlueQuote from: Brand_RobinsThe Song of Ice and Fire HQ game I played the other night would average 10ish minutes for figuring out what the final target number for the PC was.
We might have taken about ten minutes I reckon, but we were taking our time negotiating which augments came into the contest and how - it was really cool to see Katrin's "signature style" beginning to develop.
Yeah, I really felt Katrin's character strongly at that session, not strangled like she had been by D&D for so long... it would be kind of cool to hear how you'd describe her "signature style", though.
QuoteThanks, that's very useful to know - and it makes eminent sense to me looking at it from the "film scene" angle: the moment to reach for the dice is when the scene goes to slo-mo for the dramatic climax (so we actually have time to leave the screen alone for a moment and do the calculating stuff).
Maybe we'll be more eager for Contests once we get a good feel for the timing. Takes practice, I suppose. But (at least for me) this was a really, really marginal problem. I'm liking this system a lot already, even though I'm not actually good yet at running it.
Oh yes, it's a tiny little thing, but it was the one thing that we talked about during the session as something that needed attention, so I thought it would beasr bringing up. :)
I think we're learning fast, though!
QuoteQuoteI think that it's important to remember (related to both of the above) that HQ, while it is a simple and elegant system, isn't what traditionally gets called a light or transparent system – it is set up to have definite mechanical support and direction of action. Where many systems these days are built to disappear, making task resolution a non-thing that takes two seconds to roll out, HQ goes a different rout and assumes that when a contest is worth rolling it's worth making dramatic through the rules.
That's what it feels like, yes. Hm. That'll likely become another aspect we'll look at in future scenes, I'm thinking: do we or don't we want to place focus on a moment by making it a Contest? What do you think, Lucy?
Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. We're starting to get a feel for it already, and that'll only get better with time.
QuoteI'm definitely in favour of giving the system a chance. I have to admit we have already fiddled with it slightly, what with the two-sided Relationships, and a magic system greatly reduced in complexity to make it feel more like Tolkien and less like Glorantha, but we're trying to use the resolution mechanic as such (when we can remember it's there...).
We should try and get an Extended Contest in again soon, Lucy - I'm eager to try out those shiny new poker chips!
Me too; I've even got an idea or two what that extended contest might be about!
(Why do I have to wait over a week to play again? Sigh....)
Hi Lucy,
QuoteOkay: to a certain extent I guess I still have that D&D-instilled "need to succeed" whenever we roll dice. That tendency in myself annoys me a bit and I'm casting around for a new mindset.
Depending on how y'all like to play, even the competitive desire to win can be used in a fun manner beyond straight gamism. A personal rule I apply when GM'ing HeroQuest is that I give modifier bonuses for cinematic(entertaining) descriptions of actions. This bonus can range from +5 to +20, and as such, can be as or more useful than augmenting everything out.
In this regard, it allows action oriented players to come up with neat things and get a reward, it allows gamist players an option that doesn't involved taking 20 minutes to try to pick out each augment(but still be highly effective). Plus it makes folks add fun color to the game. It's not about denying what you enjoy- but using it to make fun for everyone.
Chris
Quote from: Mike HolmesI made a mistake just to show you guys that I don't know everything about playing this game. That is, I suggested before that you take a relationship to the group. I take that back. What I should have said is that you should come up with a Hero Band!
Hm, what I liked about your idea of a band Relationship was that it avoids all problems of who "has" the guardian when the band splits up and whether the guardian will then help that one band member alone but not others (kinda unfair), or will withhold its aid (kinda unfair as well because another entity withholding help smacks of punishment).
But Lucy, if you're keen by all means let's discuss what Hero Band rules will do once Apari's player is back from India.
QuoteYou like the game? Cool, that's supposed to happen in RPGs. ;-)
Oh fantastic. I hadn't realised. ;-) Now if I can stop beating myself up about being inadequate as a GM, then maybe my fun will come to outweight my stress...
QuoteKerstin, Lucy's character is so ready to get stomped. I have a character for her in my game. If you don't stomp her in yours, I'm going to stomp her in mine... :-)
Only if I don't?
QuoteSo do I get credit for fixing the bothaya? Huh? Just kidding!
LOL
Hey, we'd kinda started experimenting before that thread! But I guess you can have some of the credit.
A bit. ;-)
Quote"When our group still contained two highly paranoid and traumatised players" I thought it still did? Just kidding!
Fair enough. (No kidding.) What I should have said was "two highly paranoid and traumatised players who were giving me hell trying to run any sort of meaningful game for them." Which Lucy, and other players, never did. :)
Quote from: randomlingActually, the very end of last night's session was a prime example of a moment that I wanted a contest but for some reason decided not to ask for one.
Hey! No shutting up and enduring in my game, remember? :)
QuoteSeriously, I do think that Katrin's story is going to need some kind of crushing defeat at some point in the near future.
Nah, I don't think that would ever happen... o:)
QuoteHm, cool ideas. The "army" thing struck me as interesting, mostly because one of Katrin's major goals is to acquire an army with which to attempt to do serious harm to the Shadow.
Funnily enough it struck me as even more interesting because it skips all that Sim "now how do I realistically speaking go about gathering, training, feeding and keeping that army" stuff that neither you nor I find particularly appealing in a game.
Quote from: randomling(Why do I have to wait over a week to play again? Sigh....)
Well, here's some added torture for you: can you bear to stay out of a game prep thread if I post one? :-)
Quote from: BankueiDepending on how y'all like to play, even the competitive desire to win can be used in a fun manner beyond straight gamism. A personal rule I apply when GM'ing HeroQuest is that I give modifier bonuses for cinematic(entertaining) descriptions of actions. This bonus can range from +5 to +20, and as such, can be as or more useful than augmenting everything out.
Oh great, numbers! The players and I briefly talked about this possibility when we decided to convert over, but I hadn't actually brought it into play yet and was wondering how large to make the bonuses. Thanks, this helps me a lot in deciding where to start experimenting (I guess we'll work out what numbers work best for our group eventually).
Hi Kerstin,
Well, according to the book, the way modifiers are supposed to work is that its supposed to be a penalty applied in cases where A) an ability doesn't quite fit or is too broad in scope or B) negative factors kick in. These numbers range about -5 to -20 for most cases.
My logic is that most of the time, in play, you want to encourage players to take active measures that improve their own advantages and increase the disadvantages of any opposition(just like in real life...hmm). The key thing about rpgs is that they aren't real life, and unless the players know that this option is available and see it kick in on a regular basis, they won't take action.
I go for adding to the player's effective score instead of subtracting from the opposition because players don't tend to feel rewarded when you subtract from the opposition(though the effect is mostly the same).
As far as how big to make the numbers? It depends on how much you want them to compete with, or possibly overshadow augmenting and basic scores. I encourage big numbers (usually going +5/10/20) because it encourages players to creative action for each roll instead of sitting back and relying on their numbers to carry them through. That's me though, you'll need to figure out what works for you and your group.
Chris
Quote from: randomlingKerstin's always been a facilitator GM rather than an opponent GM, but - surprise surprise! - D&D had a tough time supporting our style of play in that regard.
Yep, to be precise, in D&D the GM isn't quite an opponent, per se, but he is the guy who puts challenges in the way of the player. Not the character, that happens in all modes of play. In D&D, the GM challenges the player. His job it to make the "dungeon" tough enough that the player, if they get their character through alive, will feel good about their tactical abilities as a player. The character merely being their tool to accomplish this task.
This is quite valid, but the GM then has incentive to do things like making player challenges out of in-game knowledge. That is, if the player knows that there's a pit trap ahead, but the character doesn't, then player challenge is destroyed - there's no opportunity for the player to "discover" the pit through remembering to check, or by having built a sensative character.
So in such a case, the GM has incentives to obstruct the player in ways that are counter-productive to collaboration in telling stories. Here's the dividing line in style where you have to make your choice. Am I challenging the player, or collaborating with them to tell a story.
QuoteOkay: to a certain extent I guess I still have that D&D-instilled "need to succeed" whenever we roll dice. That tendency in myself annoys me a bit and I'm casting around for a new mindset. This pretty much looks like the right one!
Well, I think it'll come naturally. That is, if you have to force yourself to feel this way, then something is wrong. As you play the system, my hope is that you'll feel the lack of player challenge, and start to invest in the real fun of this mode, which is investigating character motives.
Here's an excercise to see where you're at. Pick a contest next game, and try to figure out some really fun loss condition for it, for your character. Like maybe it would interest you to see how your character acts when they've lost face in a social context. Or whatever. Once you've decided what you think would be a cool negative outcome, tell Kerstin what that negative outcome is, get her to agree that this is what will happen if the character fails, and then do whatever you can to make sure that the character fails interestingly. That is, don't fail to find the most appropriate ability, and select any augments that are really, really obvious. But then don't go out of your way to select any augments beyond that, instead looking on the sheet for negative augments. Point out that your character's "Intimidating Smell" works against them in a court situation. That their Scary Visage isn't winning them any points with the other courtiers, etc.
The result doesn't matter. If you can get into trying to hose your character, to get an interesting story result, you'll know you're "ready" for this mode of play.
The fun thing about HQ, is that your character might win anyway - which is also cool. The key is to always have outcomes, either positive or negative, that are cool for the character. There is a little GM skill involved here. The principle is called "Failure means more Conflict." That is, a failure should never mean that the character is just stopped dead in their tracks with nothing new to face. It should instead mean that the character has some new problem to overcome, so that the game keeps moving, and becuase it makes the character more interesting. Even the mechanical penalties given out as a result of contests can suffice. If you lose a social conflict, then the face you lose can be an obstacle to overcome. Resistance? That's in the "healing" chart in the book. Or losing face causes somebody to order the character to leave the city. Or whatever. It doesn't mean that the character is out of options, and nothing new happens. Because that
would be penalizing the player for failure.
QuoteMore than anything, I want Katrin to be a cool protagonist, and I think I love her more than any character I've had before (except maybe her predecessor, Jez, which just goes to show that D&D can't completely kill a cool game.
Well, what you'll find is that narrativism in D&D happens "between combats," by which I mean that it's an ancillary activity added on to play unsupported by the system. So, yes, it's more than possible, and the "quality" of that play can be very high. You'll find that in HQ it's not so much that you do "better" narrativism - you might find that this character never is the equal of the D&D character in terms of your attatchment to them. But what you'll find is that the character's story gets told in about one tenth the time.
Consider that you might play, say, ten sessions, and then be done with the character, because her story is played out. That just can't happen using D&D (unless you're largely ignoring the rules, and what they promote). It's been pointed out that one likely reason that people play the same sorts of characters from game to game is because they haven't played out the story of that character. They're still looking for how it all ends for that character. In D&D, the end may never come. It doesn't have to come in HQ, either, but that's all up to the players, and ends do happen.
QuoteCan I do that as a player too? Please? [grin]
Quite, yes. In fact, like I talk about players engineering bangs, players can also engineer contests.
QuoteI would have loved to make that a contest, to "show off" the abilities in her Lord keyword, most of which were nonexistent in the D&D version of the character. It was a big moment of change for the character IMO, very dramatic for me at least, and somehow I would have liked to mark it with a contest.
But maybe that's not what you're getting at?
That's precisely what I'm getting at. Why didn't you ask for a contest? That's rhetorical, I know it's because you've never been "allowed" to ask for contests before in other games. Note that in the HQ text it does say that the narrator states when rolls are made - but there's nothing in there that says that a player can't ask them to do so (in fact, there's a lot that would imply the opposite).
So ask next time. BTW, this is a sign that you're already in the "failure is OK" mode. I mean, what did you have to gain by such a contest? Success would only mean that you show the character off as cool. Meaning that you have to have been willing to risk failure to do so. The only way this gamble makes sense is if failure is a result you don't mind seeing in this case.
Again, none of this means that in a specific case that you prefer to lose neccessarily. You can always prefer that the character win and still be in the mode. What's required is that you feel that the results of failure be, if not as cool or cooler, still cool. "I'd prefer that the character win, but if he loses, that's a pretty cool result, too."
The game promotes this, because it never, ever penalizes the player for losing. You can't lose your character. And loss means, at worst that there's some new sort of conflict in game, and/or a penalty to some actions that makes the character have something fun to overcome. Got a massive leg wound? Cool, now you have to figure out what the character would do to deal with that!
In D&D if the character fails, the player has failed somehow in properly planning their tactics, or whatever. And you may lose your character. In HQ, if the character fails, because, say, the character attacked something way out of his league, then the player wins, because he gains some new conflict. So in HQ, there's never any reason to not do a contest. You can always play the hero, and jump into whatever situation becomes available. Because the results are always just additional fun.
QuoteYeah, yeah, I see exactly what you mean by this. In D&D, Katrin was a concept in my head and a set of words and numbers on a piece of paper, and in some respects the two were wildly different. Blech.
Right. The only way to match character ability and theme in D&D is to have the character be the archtypal "adventurer." Without going into parody ("Why kill the baby Kobolds? Because they aren't worth any EXP alive!"), this character has no ties anywhere, seeks only fame and fortune, and doesn't mind killing loads of sentient beings to get these things.
This just doesn't match many resonant types of character in terms of motivation.
QuoteIn HQ, the Katrin in my head and the Katrin on paper are the same person. So of course I play the things on my character sheet, because what I wrote on the character sheet was exactly what I wanted for the character in every respect.
(Except for the "I ran out of abilities!" problem, although I'll be rectifying that with Hero Points slowly over the course of the game.)
Did you use the list method (it's what I tend to use)? If you find that you really needed more abilities than the list method provides, try writing up the character with the 100 words. If you can get all of those abilities into the 100 words (or even if it takes a few more), then Kerstin should consider letting you have them.
A few extra abilities is not unbalancing. Not remotely so. The narrative method is meant to try to accommodate the idea that some characters start with more "known" about them.
QuoteOK, I don't even know what the hero band rules are, but I really, really love the idea of Katrin-and-Jez's sword being or containing a guardian for the group. It rocks. I literally want to bounce around the room with excitement! (Of course, Kerstin may disagree with me utterly. But I love it.)
What's really fun about Hero Bands isn't even so much the abilities gained, or the like, but the fact that you invest in being in the group (you have to spend HP to join, and the character devotes some of their time to supporting the group). The point being that at some point, you'll have a difference with the band. Or another band will want you. Or some other conflict will come up regarding the band. And then each character has some really interesting choices to make. HQ is cool because it doesn't say anything like "Once in a Hero Band, the player has to make the character play along with it." The character is still free to dissent, or go his own way. Meaning that it becomes a good source for conflict. You'll always have the pull of the group - the abilities that the band provides, and the investment. So all one needs is a little push outward, and interesting decisions get made.
So, I'm watching Teen Titans the other day (hey, I have a four-year old - that's my excuse, and I'm sticking to it), and Cyborg decides he has to leave the group because he's "grown out of it" and needs to lead a group of his own. I'm thinking that the Titans are a Hero Band, the "Tower" is their guardian, and that he's heading off to start his own Hero Band for personal reasons. In the end, of course, he realizes that he can be an adult and be in the Teen Titans, too, and so returns to them. This is the sort of thing that Hero Bands are about.
That and kicking ass as a team!
Quote(Is that tragic? I know my mother is about to start ranting that I'm getting too obsessed with my fantasies, or something....)
Tell her that it's about the creation of myth, a deeply personal and spiritual endeavor that western society has lost touch with. That the "fantasies" are important in that they relate to every day life.
If you have to get really prickly with her, tell her that it's just like her TV and movie watching, except that it's interactive, and therefore better for the brain. :-)
QuoteSeriously, I do think that Katrin's story is going to need some kind of crushing defeat at some point in the near future. I'm not sure what the nature of it is just yet, but it'll be cool, no doubt. (I don't want her to die from it, but permanently scarred would work. After all, this is LotR based. If I'm going to win, I have to hit rock bottom first.)
There it is! Woot, woot, wooot! Kerstin, did I tellya?
Sorry for the exhuberance, but you've just proven a point for me. Basically, that being put in a situation where your character is inevitably "damaged" in some cool way is cool. Note that you don't want the character to die, only because it doesn't seem like it's time for the character's story to end, right? And death means the end of player participation in creating the character's story. So you're not objecting to any negative outcome, you're objecting to ending the story. Short of that, you're saying that any damage that makes the character more interesting ("scarred" as you put it) is cool.
Also, you've proven that you're in on the failure mode. You just asked the narrator for a "crushing" defeat. You want your character to go through the same sort of peril and torment that Frodo does when he gets stabbed on weathertop. Consider that encounter. By my personal HQ ratings of LotR characters, you have Frodo with his "Use Sword 14" (base rating, plus one point for having been practicing with Strider), vs, the M*therf*cking Witchking of Angmar, the dude who's personally responsible for the destruction of the realm of Angmar which is why places like Weathertop are ruins. A guy who has abilities like "Cannot be Slain by Men 10W5" is facing Frodo with his massive combat ability (see his fight against Eowen in "Return"), Massive strength, and a morgul blade. I'm thinking something like 5 masteries total at that point. Call it 10W5 against 14.
What's that I hear you say? What's the only possible mechanical result? Dying you say? Sweet. Time to get that little hobbit to Elrond! And give him a permenant new ability like "Been Stabbed by a Morgul Blade 10W".
QuoteHm, cool ideas. The "army" thing struck me as interesting, mostly because one of Katrin's major goals is to acquire an army with which to attempt to do serious harm to the Shadow.
Yes, yes. In HQ there are rules for how to do this, that are just extensions of the normal rules. So it becomes more than possible to see in the course of the game. And getting an army is not about acquiring enough gold or somesuch (though that might help), but about convincing the leaders of such an army to go along with the character. Which can be the source of all manner of adventures.
Mike
Quote from: Bankuei
Well, according to the book, the way modifiers are supposed to work is that its supposed to be a penalty applied in cases where A) an ability doesn't quite fit or is too broad in scope or B) negative factors kick in. These numbers range about -5 to -20 for most cases.
Chris, just to clarify, the rules do allow mechanically for bonuses. Equipment aside, which we all know the rules indicate provide bonuses, it does state (in a sorta backhanded way, and I can't remember precisely where) that bonuses can be given out for situation. I'm not sure precisely the wording, and I think it's meant to reflect in-game considerations, mostly. But I remember that the precise wording doesn't disallow giving bonuses for metagame reasons.
IOW, what Chris is suggesting is completely kosher by the rules. Just a particular extrapolation of them.
For my part, I like a lower key game, and don't find that you have to incentivize players to "go large" in HQ, particularly. But I don't think it can hurt, really, either. I'd say the best thing is to consider using, it, and to go with your gut on each contest. If it seems like you need to incentivize better description, then apply bonuses liberally.
Oh, when using something like this, always be more than forgiving. That is, look for effort, not for quality. If a player is trying, give them a big bonus. If they don't get a bonus, because though they tried hard, their narration was lame, they'll forget about trying quickly assuming that they just don't have what it takes. When what it takes is more practice, really.
Mike
Quotelook for effort, not for quality. If a player is trying, give them a big bonus.
Yes, and don't compare one player with another when deciding this sort of thing. Only compare them with their own previous efforts. It's the reticent people that you are really trying to encourage, so give them a good bonus each time they make a step forwards.
Quoteif the character fails ... then the player wins, because he gains some new conflict. So in HQ ... you can always play the hero, and jump into whatever situation becomes available. Because the results are always just additional fun
By way of example:
A while back I deliberately set my character up to compete against another PC in a contest he could not win. The contest was to see who would act as clan champion, a position my PC coveted. The other player bumped himself up to a complete victory; but I would have bumped myself down to a complete defeat if he hadn't.
Why would I want to be defeated so soundly? As a result of the contest I gained a flaw 'resent Zhara 10w2'. This is useful in so many situations. That it will probably apply for and against me in equal measures is half the fun.
Because the new flaw is on the sheet we will see it and apply it as an augment. Because we do that we will vocalise the nature of the underlying conflict between the characters. So there are can be both mechanical and narrative benefits to failing a contest