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Hi.  An attempt to make a cooler religion thread.  Better.  Faster.  Stronger.

We have the technology.

Instead of just sounding off about why we believe in God, a thing which I find a little bit boring, I'd like people to talk about their religious faith, why it is important to them, what role it plays in their life, how (if) it helps them become a better person and make the world a better place.

In shot: What rocks about your religion?  Or, in the case of Keith, RAWKS.

We have a diverse mix here, from born-agains to fundamentalist athiests to theravada buddhists.  Let's hear it.

Let's not just sound off.  Let's discuss and question, without being pissy about it.  Like, don't go in with the idea of changing anyone's mind.  Don't be all like "I'm going to point out how your such a hypocrite!"  The attitude here, ideally, should be more like "I'm going to use what you said to throw light on something else" or "could you explain, differently, why that is awesome?"  But talk.

I'll talk about me in a bit.

yrs--
--Ben[/url]

Right, so I'm largely ignorant about religion.  I'm always happy to admit this.  Given that, from my perspective, my lack of faith helps me by letting me see things clearly.  I know that's offensive to some, and I'm really not trying to be, but that's what I see.  I think that I can keep an open mind about everything better than if I were viewing everything through a lens clouded by the supernatural.  That sounds little, but I don't think so.  I think it addresses all the points made about why it's important, the role it plays, and how it helps me be a better person.

Of course, if I'm wrong about all that, then I'm a buffoon.

I'll tell you when it's finished... damn this is sounding like the game design thread.

I'm Jewish.  Tried lots of things, came back to my grandfather's faith in the end.  I find that it engages me intellectually and aesthetically, adds some shape and meaning to my time on this earth.  When I end the week with the Sabbath blessings or celebrate Passover, it makes me feel like the world comes round again and I'm part of something bigger.   I think it's good for my kid, too.

...and I'm also aware that all this is probably just a clever set of memes that play into certain emotional needs.  So what?  It's nice to think there's something after death, and that I'll be reunited with my loved ones in a big endless Sabbath with God and all, but it doesn't sound too likely.  So what?  It's still worth it, in my view, if it makes life more meaningful and pleasant  in this world.  

And, you know what?  From speaking to lots and lots of people facing the end of life or personal tragedy, I think that's how a lot of them feel about religion, too.

[crossposted with Danny; interesting how similar our thoughts are]

My religion (philosophical agnosticism) rocks because it's not based on belief or faith. I've shunted all unanswered questions into the same basket with stuff like that Peak Oil or heat death of the universe - they're there, I ponder them when I feel like it, but I certainly don't jump to conclusions just because I'd need an Answer. I'm just happy with waiting and seeing.

What my religion gives to adherents? Perspective and peace. When you manage to analyze human conditioning religion-wise and succeed in setting it aside, you can finally look clearly at the thing people really search for in religion, which is Meaning. Meaning can be gained through philosophy instead of religion, and you stay in control; instead of surrendering to somebody else's myth you choose your own path, based on the wisdom you have. Be the best person you can be.

Ethics-wise, my religion frees a person to consider right and wrong objectively, outside of considerations of metaphysical reward, which plague all major religions. This is why it offers the highest ethical standard of all religions.

So, those are my main points about my "religion", which of course is not religion at all. It's even less of a religion than atheism (which requires some active convinction), unless you consider monk-like calm to ratchet me some religion points. But anyway, let's discuss it: have you belief-people considered a philosophical approach to ethics and cosmology? I'm quite sure that most of your religion's major selling points are pretty irrelevant if thought of analytically. Another question to consider: what is the actual core of your religion, and how does it matter? I've found no religious core precepts that were defensible through anything but blind faith. This is a deal-breaker for me, because it sets all religions on the same level with the "brain in a jar" theory.

--

In the interests of illustrating my religious thought in action, let's take a look at Christianity. It's the first religion I declined, so it always has a special place in my heart.

Christianity as I've seen it in practice can be divided into the following memes:
- Cosmology: God all-powerful created the earth and so on
- Ethics: Believe or get your ass kicked by Jesus
- Ethics2: You have a covenant with God, and your honor requires doing as the Don says
- Ethics3: There is no ethics, because Jesus forgives you
- Aesthetic: Grand architecture and choirs celebrate the idea of God
- Worship: A social ritual, folks participate because of tradition and contacts in the community
- Bible: Enough stuff to justify any practice, if not any theory. Colorful tales.

At some point I realized that my religious experience was very much tied to the social and aesthetic aspects of the church, not to anything in it's ethics or cosmology. The singing and performing of ritual required and reinforced a modicum of convinction in the vague idea of higher power. The thing is, this had nothing to do with Christianity per se, I got a very much similar effect from, say, reading Norman Spinrad. To say it crudely, I couldn't see any difference between brainwashing (read: any powerful art) and church ritual.

Then there was the ethical level, on which I found the church profoundly lacking. My final deliberation came to the conclusion that I don't care ethics-wise whether there is a God or not. That has nothing to do with right or wrong. You can't define right as the God's will (if God is defined as the all-good being, then it's just a simple circularity), and if right is something else, then I have to do it regardless of what God would like. He can do what he wishes with my undying soul, I'm not willing to submit to his will just because of crude threats or a covenant somebody else made for me when I was a couple of months old.

If you remove the aesthetic veil and unbolt the ethical system Christianity proposes, you're left with a rather sad state of affairs with a book of fairy tales, bigotry and narrow nationalistic myths of a people I don't belong to. Believing in the Bible without believing in it's ethics is like believing in H.C. Andersen. No psychological basis at all.

Going forward from this, I've not fallen into the aesthetics of any other religion (although I like some of them very much), and thus haven't gained any religious feelings either. The two are connected, you have to first appreciate the aesthetic before developing the psychological state called Faith. And while some religions have much more solid ethics than Christianity, and even more solid cosmologies (usually achieved by claiming nothing much), the act of religion won't happen just because I agree about ethics and cosmology. I won't suddenly start to believe in Seth (of Temple of Seth fame) just because I agree about ethics, it'd require a much more profound aesthetic experience to give me the faith.

--

Starting from here, a question to you who think yourself faithful: have you ever considered that perhaps your faithful convinction is essentially similar to a political ideology or personal habit, engendered by purposeful and repeating enjoyment of church practice? Would it be possible that the thing you call belief is actually a habit, albeit one deeply embedded?

How poorly people misunderstand others' religion. I'm normally in awe of Eero's insight, and yet I find him lacking here. "There is no ethics, since we are forgiven?" That stuff went out with the Cathars.

Anyway.

I consider myself a Christian. I consider the vast majority of modern Christian religions to have lost their mind hundreds of years ago.

God. I believe there is something beautiful and light in every person, no matter how deep they bury it. I believe it transcends biology. I believe that by seeking to find it, you perfect yourself.

Jesus. Last I read, he said that we are all the sons (and daughters) of God. We all have a Light. Sure, he said he was the Son of God - and we all are too. Awesome!

The afterlife. I believe it doesn't matter. Seriously. Let's take the most well-known piece of New Testament scripture. "For God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believe in him shall not perish, but have eternal life." And let's dissect that. "Eternal" there does not mean what you might then. Upon translation, it's shown to just as easily mean "infinite." Heaven's another word for infinitely communicating with God - that is, inifintely living in the Light inside one's self. Hell's a word for being severed from God - that is, being severed from one's own Light. So, I think this piece of scripture means that if you believe in the teachings of Jesus - pretty good stuff, and non-bigoted, except a few things that probably got thrown in after the fact - and believe in the power of rebirth, that a man can kill that which leads to selfishness and make himself a new creature, then you can infinitely live in the Light, finding peace and solace.

I find comfort in this passage, Luke 12:29-31. Jesus says, "And do not seek what you should eat or what you should drink, nor have an anxious mind. For all these things the nations of the world seek after, and your Father knows that you need these things. But seek the kingdom of God, and all these things shall be added to you." This gets misused a lot: "If I'm a good Christian, and believe all this hokum, then I get good stuff!" This is short-sighted human selfishness. I read this:

If I put seeking God, questioning, doubting, and self-examination first and foremost in my life, my path will lead me where I need to go. The basic necessities of life will get taken care of, because when I live searching, I'll manage to pick up some crackers or something.

---

I've lately - especially after recently attending a fundamentalist Pentacostal church and hearing the above passage so misused - thought of coining a new name for what I believe. If I did, it'd be called the Search, and I'd be a Seeker.

---

P.S. (and later edit). I forgot to clarify one thing:

Infallability of the Bible. Oh, I laugh. You can't be serious. Written by people, translated by people, edited by people, hand selected by people. And I'm supposed to think every one is perfect and correct? Man, I believe a lot of stuff, but that's just ludicrous.

To be serious, this follows along with the Search. I believe in all religious texts, the Truth lies hidden within. To find it, you must seek it, and know that the Light inside you will help illuminate it.

I was raised Catholic until age 10, when  I found out that our church had refused to marry my parents because my dad had been married before.  My stepfather taught me that morals, ethics, and religion have nothing to do with each other.  He also taught me that respecting others begins with respecting yourself, and to apply logic to right behavior.

What I came out of this with:
1 - I believe in a God
2 - I do not believe in the divinity of Jesus, or any other man (wisdom, yes)
3 - The key to happiness is balance
4 - Faith is comletely personal
5 - Everyone has a right to his own happiness, until that inpinges on the same rights of others--in other words, Don't Be An Asshole
6 - Nothing is predestined, but we are given the opportunities to create the best of all possible worlds for ourselves, and our own choices determine that path.

Why this RAWKS!
1 - I can be at peace with anyone who is not committed to harming or discriminating against others.
2 - My moral compass is based around respect for life and reasoning, not dictated to me by an outside source.
3 - My Sundays are free! ;)
4 - I have no need to convert others to my POV--if it works for you without harming others, great!
5 - I am prejudiced against no one. (Insofar as this is humanly possible)
6 - Things in nature have intrinsic value, while artificial constructs have only the value we place on them.

There's much more, but it would take too long to write it all.  Suffice it to say, my beliefs let me be happy and not harm others, while leaving room for positive self-growth.

Nick

Thanks, guys!  These are awesome.

(I know this is the Birthday Forum, so anything goes, but could we, for this thread, shy away from "my religion is awesome because other religions suck" and move towards "my religion is awesome because it provides positives?"  That would be cool.)

I am a theist.  I haven't always been.

I used to be very much like Eero.  I was a self-described "fundamentalist agnostic," and very convinced that there was never any proof for a God one way or another, so the proper thing to do was believe neither.

The train of thought that led me off of this path is a long and complicated one, and runs through some pretty esoteric physics stuff in pretty esoteric ways, so it is probably best not to bring it up here.  In short, for very good reasons, I got tired of being so god damned right all the damned time.

Also, for other very good reasons, I started believing in God.  (I've always believed in evil, having been confronted with some pretty involiate evidence at a young age.  I imagine it was only a matter of time until I started believed in good.)

I am totally unconcerned about the afterlife.  I am totally unconcerned about the apocalypse, or all the other things that athiests and agnostics seem to think are so important to theists.  

I am concerned about doing right in the world and becoming a better person.  Pretty much, at this point, I don't have time for either people who are not interesting in being good, or activities that do not promote my own moral and spiritual growth.

It's been over a year now, though, and I haven't really found a religion past that.  I'm not sure if I will, although at this point I'm pretty strongly attracted to Christianity.  I am deeply cool with the whole "Christ" thing, by which I mean the fundamental connection between humans and the divine.  I can't quite get past the idea that Christ was like this one guy who lived 2000 some years ago.

But that's my own account.

yrs--
--Ben

Quote from: Clinton R. Nixon
I'm normally in awe of Eero's insight, and yet I find him lacking here. "There is no ethics, since we are forgiven?" That stuff went out with the Cathars.

Thanks, I like your thinking, too.

As for the ethics thing there (the proper theological name of which I forget), it's not nearly as anachronistic as you seem to think. To the contrary, many Protestant churches in the western world have implicitly or explicitly lessened the threat of punishment and the role of evil in their curricula. Finland's Lutheran church (which is my personal primary experience, as it accounts for over 80% of Finns) is a good example: sin is never mentioned in public, because it is thought to alienate modern westerners from a church trying to guild-trip them. Instead the church serves a ceremonial function, happily catering to the great majority who care about it only when they need to get married or buried. And why not? After all, all these rice-Christians pay a church tax the state here allows Lutherans to collect, so the church certainly benefits from a paying but non-caring constituency.

As an example, we have an ordained minister here in Finland who explicitly wrote a book called "There is no Hell" or something like that. Name of Kylliäinen, if I remember correctly. The book certainly caused some discussion, but for the most part it was welcomed positively.

The point: while your church may differ, the idea of an all-accepting church doesn't seem too alien here in Finland. To the contrary, I guess that a church youth worker who explicitly confessed to believing in sin and instructed teenagers according to scripture would find himself jobless pretty quickly. Ministers have more leeway, of course.

Quote
I consider myself a Christian. I consider the vast majority of modern Christian religions to have lost their mind hundreds of years ago.

You seem to have a nice religion. The thing is, what you describe sounds like part Gnostic and part agnostic, and Christian only in the sense that you believe in what Christ taught. Theologically that's pretty far from Christianity. Actually, that's closer to what I believe: wait, see, learn and search, the truth will come if it will.

There's of course nothing wrong with that, I'm just saying this because you complained about my misunderstanding Christianity. My comments were directed towards churches, not what any one of us might understand by the Christ's teachings. I'm sure there are even stranger interpretations than yours.

Here's a quote from the Economist to explain the differences between US churches and European churches:
(full article at http://www.uwec.edu/Geography/Ivogeler/w188/articles/god.htm )

Quote
But in America, religion has always been a competitive affair, founded on personal belief. In "The Churching of America 1776-1990", Roger Finke and Rodney Stark point out that, because America was settled by people opposed to state-supported religion, there was never a monopoly, one-size-fits-all faith. Instead, churches have always had to vie for devotees. They have done so in much the same way that firms attract customers: by tailoring their product to suit a particular niche in the market. New churches can spring up easily. Their preachers have often had relatively little education but lots of energy and drive. However, once a church becomes established, with a hierarchy and a trained ministry, its clergy acquire theology degrees, often losing the raw certainty of their faith in the process.

Quote from: Eero Tuovinen
You seem to have a nice religion. The thing is, what you describe sounds like part Gnostic and part agnostic, and Christian only in the sense that you believe in what Christ taught. Theologically that's pretty far from Christianity.

That's great! And exactly my point!

I have no idea what these people believe today, but that was my exact point: I don't see them believing what Christ actually taught. Things like:

1) The old laws are overturned. (So, you know, gays are cool.)
2) No man should go hungry while another one has something to eat. (I think I just quoted from Dogs in the Vineyard.)
3) Love your neighbor. Not just the one with the flag in his lawn. That other one, too, with the mangy dog and the kids in the street.

I used to consider myself an agnostic. Now I'm not sure. Hah, that's almost ironic.

I don't believe in a sentient God. That just doesn't make any sense to me, especially not a God who thinks in remotely human ways.

However, I do realize that life and sentience are miracles. I can't explain them with science. I can't explain them with philosophy. Sure, I can state a certain "what," but not really the "how" or "why" parts.

Also, I realized that I have some fundamental beliefs. I believe in the dignity of humans, in compassion with other forms of life, in balance. I can absolutely say that some things are morally wrong and others are morally right. I'm much of a Kantian, though with a heavy dose of Hegel as well. I see three tiers of moral duties--family, society, humankind. With animals as a semi-moral fourth tier (Kant would consider that last one imperfect duties). I believe my foremost moral duty is the protection of my family.

So religiously, I have found my niche only very recently among the Unitarian Universalists, who confirm the basic human dignity and the value of all life. And every time I read a statement by a UU minister on issues such as same sex marriage, women's right to self-determination, or all people's rights in that regard (including the right to die), I am happy and find myself in agreement. I finally see a group of people who are just as curious and open minded as I am, but who still affirm basic values and community.

That's what rawks about Unitarians. Faith in good values and individual expression of spirituality, tolerance, acceptance, and a healthy dose of common sense.

Why family as a moral value?

That one has always confused me.  With the one exception of taking care of children that have been brought into the world (a one-way arrow from parent to child), where does morality within family supercede morality outside of family?

Quote from: Ben Lehman
(I know this is the Birthday Forum, so anything goes, but could we, for this thread, shy away from "my religion is awesome because other religions suck" and move towards "my religion is awesome because it provides positives?"  That would be cool.)

The thing is, the agnostic faith is awesome precisely because it's just the best option in a flawed world, not because of any particular positives.

Then again, most religions seem to provide the same sort of positive benefits. I'll try to list some:
- an ethic (so you know what's right and can feel good about your actions)
- a cosmology (so you know where you stand in the cosmos, and can feel peaceful)
- a society (so you can reaffirm your faith with others under the same flag)
- a high (entertainment value, in other words)
These are common to practically all religions, and they all thus claim same kinds of benefits: confidence, direction, peace with yourself. Even my religion in it's manner provides these:
- my ethic stems from a rather complex philosophical analysis combined with life experience allowing proper perspective
- my cosmology is immediate and postmodern, only fixed in time and space by current need
- my society is artistic, cultural and intellectual, instead of based around a church
- I get my high from good art actualizing philosophical principles, whether religious or not
So my religion is awesome because it provides the same things you get out of other religions, except there's less ties, limitations and evil. Like this:
- my ethic is better than any right-hand religion's, because those aren't really ethics, but moralities (and horribly outdated most of the time)
- my cosmology is better, because I don't claim to know what I don't know
- my society of intelligent people spans the globe, finding resonance in all hearts right and true, and kicks your paltry church with it's tired ministers and hypocrite commoners from here to Sunday
- my high is better, because I get it from the best artist of the world, regardless of creed (How long it's been since the best and the brightest actually committed their skill to service of churches? Middle-Ages, that's how long.)
So that's my spiel. Prove me your faith rocks in one of those categories better than mine, and you have my attention. I'm quite a gamist as far as matters of life and philosophy are concerned ;)

As a hint, I've frequently thought that it'd be cool to take on some very concrete worship-based religion like asatru or something, just for the experience. I think that this is mostly because churches had a monopoly on interactive aesthetic experiences for so many centuries. It might be that my need for worship lessens when we get rpgs that scratch the itch as well or better than your average church. But while waiting for that, I have to say that agnostism falls somewhat short in the interactivity department. Really no good way to celebrate your convinction through ritual, is there? Luckily my agnostic convinction still wins in the overall aesthetic department (show me the church that has better shit than the individualistic celebrations of Heinlein or Spinrad or Egan or such), so there's no real doubt about it's supremacy...

Quote
I am a theist.  I haven't always been.

Ben sounds like me. "I don't have time for either people who are not interesting in being good, or activities that do not promote my own moral and spiritual growth." sounds like something I'd say. Does that mean that I'll fold and start claiming theism when I get older?

Clinton,

That is the most rockin' understanding of Christianity I've come across in a long time.  Though I don't consider myself Christian, your beliefs about the Jesus Thing are pretty similar to mine.  Are you Quaker, by any chance?

Anyway, I'm an Animist.  I don't believe I would ever be able to justify or validate my spirituality in a way compatible with Western philosophical traditions.  It's more instinctive than rational, and I doubt this is the place where I can find someone who understands or appreciates that.

As for why it is important to me and how it makes me a better person or makes the world a better place, it's a bit hard to grasp since I'm not sure of the answers to those questions myself.  Yet, for some reason I don't think it's a bad thing to not know that, to not have all the answers, but that's not Animism; that's something else.

If I were pressed, I would say that the primary things Animism gives to the individual and the world is awareness of and respect for a deeper reality.  It gives genuine appreciation for life both as a process and as the quality of living things.  It forces me to cultivate patience, respect, and understanding.  I am trying to develop acceptance of life and the dualities that unify rather than divide it: bitter and sweet, tenderness and savagery, beauty and ugliness, good and evil, struggles and peace, triumph and tragedy.  It's difficult to comprehend and even more difficult to do, so I won't pretend for two seconds that I know much of anything.

Like I said, I don't know if this "rocks" or if it has value to anyone besides me, but that's it in a nutshell.

Quote from: GreenThat is the most rockin' understanding of Christianity I've come across in a long time.  Though I don't consider myself Christian, your beliefs about the Jesus Thing are pretty similar to mine.  Are you Quaker, by any chance?

As a regular reader of Clinton's blog, I just have to say: what an incredibly perceptive question!

Somehow it survived in me that what matters most is family and friends, and what matters next most is guests and hosts. Food binds all. Preparing food, eating food, cleaning up after food. Now that Meg's sister owns land and sheep and chickens and sugar maples and herb and vegetable gardens, add cultivating food too. I take my cookery as a priesthood. Keep your theologies and afterlives, for I know that Cajun shrimp recipe.

My word for God is "the monkey mind." When we get together, we have the monkey mind. We eat and laugh and play and gossip. "Eat" is the heart and "play" is the soul, and play includes games, music, art, stories, touching, discoursing, wandering, looking. Play is how we make sense of everything else.

Religion is a kind of play that I don't enjoy, I think because it involves murmuring and all facing one direction. You can take the monkey out of the trees...

-Vincent

Quote from: joshua neff

Quote from: GreenThat is the most rockin' understanding of Christianity I've come across in a long time.  Though I don't consider myself Christian, your beliefs about the Jesus Thing are pretty similar to mine.  Are you Quaker, by any chance?

As a regular reader of Clinton's blog, I just have to say: what an incredibly perceptive question!

I found the Quakers, yes. Am I one? I'm not sure yet. I do attend Quaker meetings some, though. I've been going to a lot of different churches lately. The only local one I'm still curious about is the Unitarians. I really want to go, but there's an awkward social situation there. I think I may brave the waters this Sunday.

How do you know the Unitarians are mad at you?

They're burning a question mark on your front lawn!!

Best,
Ron

Vincent, that's absolutely beautiful. And I think I see things pretty similarly. One of the main reasons why I'm so enamored of RPGs is because I see play as crucial to our lives. Play doesn't mean games, although games are included in play. I could really go on about this for a long, long time, but I think everything I think about it was summed up in your post well, and I don't want to bore everyone with my long-winded ramblings about play and life and the universe.

Quote from: Ron EdwardsHow do you know the Unitarians are mad at you?

They're burning a question mark on your front lawn!!

Best,
Ron

Hahhah hahahahahah!

That's Mort Sahl, innit?

As someone who grew up Unitarian-Universalist (and gave up on that particular church for a variety of reasons), I've always loved that joke.

People hear Meg's story, they turn to me, they say, "so are you UU too?" I say, "well..."

True story.

-Vincent

I freely confess that I consider Vincent's pancakes a profound spiritual experience.

yrs--
--Ben

Quote from: Ben LehmanI freely confess that I consider Vincent's pancakes a profound spiritual experience.

And why not? When you are eating, you are feeding life, causing it to grow and survive, nuturing your own body. That's a pretty damn spiritual experience!

Neat stuff.  It's amazing how much convergence one sees in this kind of thing, among people who are both intelligent and good.

I've been struggling to define my faith again, recently.  Hard to pin it down to words.  Easiest put, what I believe in - in the manner of something divine and transcendent - is human nature, human virtue, and human potential.  I feel no real need to attach a mind or personification to this; it can be infinitely praiseworthy without itself being 'people' in any sense.

From my readings, it might perhaps be defined as a kind of secular humanist extropian Sufism.  When I see the exercise of man's creativity, ingenuity, compassion, and virtue... that's not simply a sign of the presence of God.  That is God, right there, in the flesh, naked and shining.  It's hard to stop and appreciate it like that, simply because the world is full of distractions, but the attempt to do so is itself a religious exercise analogous to prayer.

I wish on stars... as a way of talking to the God in me.  I say thank you before important meals - to the goodness in ourselves, everyone around the table, for being the true force making the meal itself an occasion worth treasuring.  (Recently my daughter has insisted on being the one to say this grace.  This puts a whole new layer of treasure on it, because I'm also thanking this ineffable virtue for how wonderful she is, how well she's turning out.)

For me this is awesome for three reasons.  One, I'm a scientist.  Occam's Razor is important to me, and the principles above and beyond Occam which insist that the most elegant explanation is almost invariably the correct one.  With that as a basis, the existence of something classically supernatural is close to untenable, certainly uncomfortable and disturbing - which (in the light of what I now believe) makes it nigh unto heretical in its own right.  I cannot in good faith - and I use the word advisedly - believe in God.  Two, it has this fabulous translation property.  I acknowledge that, in my own terms, the "good bits" of all faiths are overt and explicit recognitions of the same thing I worship, plus some (often very pretty) mythology and ritual attached.  So I can sit in on a sermon or ceremony and enjoy it immensely... everytime I hear "God" I subsitute the wordless phrase "the virtues of the human heart," and similar translations.  And the ceremony makes sense; its beauty translates.  And third, it means that I am surrounded by the naked presence of God.  All the fucking time.  Not every day, quite; everyday life is a grinder that way, especially when I'm working these 14-hour days and not getting to see my kids.  But anytime I really care to put the effort into looking for "him," it doesn't take much.  And I know I'm seeing "his" "face" directly, right then.  That's comforting, y'know?

- Eric

Quote from: Ron EdwardsHow do you know the Unitarians are mad at you?
They're burning a question mark on your front lawn!!

If I were mad at Ron, I'd just burn him on his front lawn. I mean, seriously, fuck the symbolism, I'm mad at Ron. What'd the question mark ever do to me?

I've been a lot of things in my time.

I grew up on Hindu folktales and condensed versions of the epics Gita and Mahabharata and Ramayana, which, for a long time, biased me really negatively against the whole swath of Abrahamic (I think that's the term Jonathan uses...) faiths. "Look at their paltry prophets!" said I, "they're slaves and carpenters and pedestrians! The things they did in the name of God are minuscule."

At some point I became offended at the idea of worship (I was a teenager; I thought I was the best thing since DNA.) and rejected religion utterly on that basis.

Eventually I percieved the profound disrespect of that position, and figured that answers were for other people (unrelated events!). I still had (still have) questions. So, now, the only thing I hold important with regard to faith is respect for one's beliefs, and a serious desire to understand them and engage in right action. Respect for belief is a pretty complicated thing for me, which involves being willing and able to interrogate and modify those beliefs, as well as understand that belief is diverse among people; the only respectful way to treat someone else's beliefs is to try and ensure that he is respectful towards them too. There's more in there too, which I can't really verbalise, so I suspect it's more important.

One last thing that has stuck with me since the early days is that, to me, it's profoundly incorrect to try and define divinity. Divinity is too transcendent for that. That's what transcendent means. I don't necessarily know whether divinity exists, but I know that to try and define it is to misrepresent it.

I'm looking at Clinton, Ben, Christian, Eric, Green, and Shreyas and just nodding. I don't have much to add to what they've said because I'm basically right there with them on the various points. You could pluck out various statements of theirs and I'd be in total agreement/understanding thereof.

Quote from: LxndrWhy family as a moral value?

Because my basic belief is Kantian in nature in that morality is based on duties, not rights. I have a duty to my family first and foremost because I:
a) made a contract and vow;
b) am responsible for the child I put into this world; and
c) owe my own life and who I am mostly to my family.

I secondarily owe a lot to my society.

Finally, my duty to humankind is pure Kantian. As a rational being who puts value in the ends I choose for myself, I have to value the capacity for making that choice over the actual choices (a logical primacy there). All human beings have that capacity, therefore, I would devalue myself if I disrespected them.

Hi, I'm JB, and I'm the token white convert Buddhist.

("Hi, JB!")

Interesting, great stuff here.  FWIW, I have been a perfectly serious Gnostic in the past, and an occultist of various stripes.  I do think a lot of Eero's critiques, though not unique to state religions, fall into that general syndrome.

Anywho, Buddhism effin' RAWKS, man.  It has a "high" (I like that, Eero, "entertainment value," quite astute really), but the high transfers to all situations.  We usually call it Mindfulness or Pure Awareness, or similar notions privileged by Capitalizing them.  It takes difficult training and goes against the grain of typical human habits, yet it's also the most natural thing in the world.  When I'm high in this way, I'm right there--even if I'm pretty miserable.  I laugh a lot more when I keep the five precepts carefully and meditate well (these two support each other, and laughter supports everything).  I take genuine pleasure in studying the scriptures of various Buddhist traditions.

I love debating doctrine, but really, the best part for me is just not suffering so much, and being better able to care about other people who are suffering because I'm not so freaked out by it.  This makes for way more joy.

Quote from: lumpleySomehow it survived in me that what matters most is family and friends, and what matters next most is guests and hosts. Food binds all. Preparing food, eating food, cleaning up after food. Now that Meg's sister owns land and sheep and chickens and sugar maples and herb and vegetable gardens, add cultivating food too. I take my cookery as a priesthood. Keep your theologies and afterlives, for I know that Cajun shrimp recipe.

Absolutely.  Except, as a Jew, I know that shrimp are evil and the Devil's work.  

You can tell because they taste so good.

I'm at an interesting place right now, trying to reorient myself as to how I want to interact with spirituality.  So excuse me if this is a bit messy.

There's God, who's a cool kind of being and wants cool things for us.  My understanding of this is from the rather simple idea that as I've learned more and matured, I've become a nicer person.  Therefore, God being all knowing and all powerful can only be the nicest most compassionate being, not having any needs or conflicts to deal with, and understanding everything.

There's an afterlife for spirits, though all of what happens there, I have no clue at all.  

There has to be a reason for all the craziness that happens in life.  I have no idea what this reason is, or if its just a thing I'm telling myself to keep from losing it.  I've pretty much spent most of my life trying to figure out that reason.  I've learned a lot of other stuff while doing so, so it seems like a good thing to continue doing at the moment.

Morally?  Overall, life is easier when people don't trip with each other.  There are consequences to everything you do, and it doesn't have to be some fancy strange coincidental karma thing.  My understanding of karma is if I piss you off, you'll probably get back at me.  Or your friends and family will.  Or I'll piss off the wrong person one day.

The most actual religious involvement I've had was studying Ifa, a West African religion for 2 years.  It is more commonly known by its New World versions, of Santeria, Lukumi and Voudon.  While I agree with a lot of the basic tenets, the social structure that has arisen around it is very often abusive and crazy.  I think half the people come to it to try to learn "spells" and get power on other people, and that's not cool at all.  Some people also like the system of initiation, because it lets them feel like they're better than the average person, and that, too, is not cool.

I'll let you know next year where I stand, if I ever decide to do any kind of organized thing again :P

Shreyas,

What you said about suspecting there's a divinity and not being worthy or capable of trying to discern its nature sounds familiar to me, from two places.  

Many Abrahamic believers believe in God but refuse to try to understand His nature, as it is divine and all-powerful. As such, it is unknowable and not understandable to our mortal minds.

Another is Taosim. I've not read the entire Tao te Ching (and what I've read has been translated), but here are some general paraphrases about the Tao that should be somewhat accurate from memory. The Tao that can be fully understood is not the true Tao.  The Tao that can be spoken is not the true Tao. The Tao must be one with you for you to understand it at all, and if you understand it completely even at that point, it is not the true Tao. The Tao is great but seeks not greatness. It is like the water, which does not seek to perch upon mountains but which gladly settles into the lowest places. Settling into these places, it changes them and the mountains too. The Tao is not boisterous, it says the most when it is silent.

I'm sure neither of these was your immediate source for your beliefs. I just think it's nice to know that the religions which have stuck around hundreds or thousands of years tend to reinforce one another on some level, and that independent thinkers come up with the same points over and over again.

Let me tell you about the sex.

See, one of the things, perhaps THE thing I think is most cool about Unitarian Universalism is the sex. No, I am not at all talking about any kind of sex-as-part-of-religion (although to each hir own), what I'm talking about is the attitude around sex, and the willingness to go right to the wall in talking about any aspect of sexuality or sexual identity.

The most basic parts of UUism are:

*Belief in the inherent worth and dignety of all beings.
*Respect for the interdependant web of which we are a part.

From that naturally flows a whole wealth of healthy attitudes around ethnicity, gender, orientation, identity, equality, and education.

I am a facilitator of the Our Whole Lives sex ed curricula, http://www.uua.org/owl/what.html , and I just finished teaching an intensive three-month cycle for 6 young men and 3 young women, ages 14-18. I have *rarely* seen adults so willing to step up and do the work of examining their beliefs and ideas and really work to grow and learn as I see in these classes.  I can sit here and tell you in absolute certainty that the OWL program, created by and provided by the UUA and the UCC (United Church of Christ, which split off from the UUs in the 1950s) has saved lives, and I mean that literally, not in a Christian 'saved' way.

I am honored and proud to be a part of a denomination that so highly values teens and youth as whole people, worthy of the whole picture and able to make their own wise, informed choices if given all the info. I am honored and proud to be part of a denomination that holds sexuality as vital and human and precious and holy and real and sweaty and gritty and not something to be ashamed of or whispered about.

UUs were among the very first to have women ministers as fully equal in the church. UUs were among the leaders in the American revolution, abolition, the Civil rights movement, the women's movement, the nuclear disarmament movement, and among the first to celebrate marriage between any two consenting adults.  

So, if you ask me what the one thing that is the coolest about my church, I will tell you it's about the sex.

I'm a straight up agnostic.  I don't believe in anything I haven't experienced first hand.  Sometimes I wonder if this makes me a spiritual slacker, but ... well ... *shrug*

Quote from: groundhog
Another is Taosim. I've not read the entire Tao te Ching (and what I've read has been translated), but here are some general paraphrases about the Tao that should be somewhat accurate from memory.

BL>  Hi.  Spent a five or so years studying Taoism quite heavily.  If my university had let me get a double-degree, I would have had one in that also.

Don't mistake the ineffibility of the Way of Heaven for any sort of fundamental incomprehensiblity.  When they were written, the texts were intended to promote particular meditation techniques which would allow the practitioner to understand the whole of the Way of Heaven, thus understand the entire world.  There is humility there, with regard to language, but also hubris, with regard to understanding.  It isn't quite what you describe.

This is not to say that you can't draw your own doctrine of humility out of the small number of holy books that have been translated into English.  You can.  Many other people have, and it has brought them a great deal of happiness.  But don't confuse that with history, or the religion as it exists in Asia today.

yrs--
--Ben

P.S.  I recommend the Zhuangzi (AKA Chuang Tzu) heartily.  It rocks.  It's like William S. Borroughs does Taoist philosophy.

You know, I could post this huge essay on my beliefs. How I am a complete atheist. How I like the way most of the people on this forum think and agree with the ethics of most religions but without the "thou art evil if you do not do exactly as I do based upon some book that came via fax from [insert divine being here]". How I go to a religious private school because it is the only decent school in my area. How every day I get religion shoved down my throat. (my apologies if I sound bitter but it does get on my nerves sometimes) How my ethical system goes as such:

Do whatever you think (and genuinely consider your actions) will benefit you and those you care about most, and then accept the consequences of your actions.

How I have a morbid (but strangely comforting) view on death: death is non-existence. All biological functions that create sentience have ceaced to function so I no longer exist. But since I won't exist, it doesn't matter because I won't care. Because I don't exist! How I think all religions will rock (RAWK!) when they finally figure out that other religions have a right to exist, that other ways of thinking are okay and that when stripped of all their stories and stuff all your are left with is a system of values so that we can live together in a society. How I am perfectly fine with your beliefs so long as I don't have it rammed down my throat. How it is the height of conceit to think that some all knowing and all powerful god created the entire universe (infinite or otherwise) for a bunch of monkeys living on a rock on one of the arms of a mid-sized galaxy. How I think you can be a good person without a god or without a religion.

But ultimately, the only thing that I can say with any real surety is that I honestly do not have a clue... oh, and that Meguey, you caught my attention.

Luck,
Kirk

I've studied theology in earnest since '91.  I lost my Christian Faith ~ 5 years ago.  

I presently believe in (generic) monotheism based on Natural Theology, most especially motivated by the Teleological Argument (that the most logical answer to an ordered universe is an "Orderer").  Of course, this does not lend itself (necessarily) to any particular doctrine, nor does it say too much about the exact nature of the "Unmoved Mover" (Aristotle's).  

Most people I've encountered through the years tend to be simply lazy concerning theology/religion (as in most matters of serious philosophy), and regurgitate pop-culture mantras rather than seriously getting into the guts of it.  But, since the Birthday forum is closing shortly debates on religion for us would be fruitless.

Quote from: MegueySee, one of the things, perhaps THE thing I think is most cool about Unitarian Universalism is the sex.

So, here's a UU joke another UU told me.

There's a UU retreat for teens. When it gets time for sleep, one UU says, "Oh, rats, I forgot to bring my sleeping bag."

A second UU says, "That's okay, you can get into my sleeping bag with me. But I don't have a pillow."

The first UU says, "No problem. We'll just roll up my sleeping bag and use it as a pillow."

Ha ha ha ha ha ha...eh, nevermind.

(And I know that's not what you were talking about, Meg.)

I am a skeptical atheist. I suppose that in some technical sense I could be called an agnostic, since as a skeptic I acknowledge the impossibility of proving a negative and therefore the chance that there might be a divine being (or a supernatural reality of any kind, really), but in practice I don't act on that -- it remains to be proven, as far as I'm concerned, and until something changes I'll continue with my best working model, which is of a world where there are no supernatural intelligences.

I'm therefore an atheist in practice, and I figure it would be dishonest to call myself otherwise, but I try to use the term "skeptical atheist" in order to convey a sense of the origins of my atheism.

I think in large part that my atheism stems from my Catholic upbringing -- not because I was embittered by it, but because it led me to investigate the tenets of my faith, which led me to discover that I couldn't really believe in them. I still feel a powerful connection to the Catholic church as an important element of my cultural and (if you like) ethnic identity. I just can't be part of it anymore.

One thing that often baffles me in the world of smaller or "alternative" religion is the desperate attempt to make Christianity or the Bible say what you believe. I think it stems from the conflation in American culture of "Christianity" and "morality" or maybe even "piety, spirituality." I think that this has had a negative effect on piety, spirituality (not that I give a hang), morality (where I do give a hang) and on Christianity itself.

UU door-to-door preachers caught me the other day.

All smiles, all friendly, then the sucker punch... "Hi, could we take a minute to listen to your beliefs?"

Punks. Everything I came out with they just said "Gosh, I never thought about it like that."

I ended up gving them some pamphlets...

Quote from: BankueiThere's an afterlife for spirits, though all of what happens there, I have no clue at all.  

Morally?  Overall, life is easier when people don't trip with each other.  There are consequences to everything you do, and it doesn't have to be some fancy strange coincidental karma thing.  My understanding of karma is if I piss you off, you'll probably get back at me.  Or your friends and family will.  Or I'll piss off the wrong person one day.

The most actual religious involvement I've had was studying Ifa, a West African religion for 2 years.  It is more commonly known by its New World versions, of Santeria, Lukumi and Voudon.  While I agree with a lot of the basic tenets, the social structure that has arisen around it is very often abusive and crazy.  I think half the people come to it to try to learn "spells" and get power on other people, and that's not cool at all.  Some people also like the system of initiation, because it lets them feel like they're better than the average person, and that, too, is not cool.

This is eerily similar to some of the beliefs I have.  What I found particularly interesting is that after I realized I was Animist, my concept of spirits and the spirit world is more along the lines of African and Native American traditions (insofar as such traditions still exist).  If there were an African or Native American version of Shinto, that would be just right.

In any case, what makes Animism (as opposed to pagan) rock is that it's interesting.  The ability of a thing to stimulate the imagination is a very important component of my spirituality.  I would even go so far as to say it's crucial.  Far more than the answers a particular faith provides, I am drawn to the questions it raises, the possibilities it presents.  I am increasingly drawn to the notion that every creature, every object, every force is related to a host of similar spirits, most of which do not manifest.  For instance, say there are a bunch of deer in your town.  They are all manifestations of deer spirits.  Howver, there are only as many deer spirits manifested in an area as there are deer in that area.  This is the same principle I believe applies to all of physical reality.  What makes this rock is that it gives the world the same value and sacredness that exists in the native realms of spirits.  With such a variety of entities and forces, it creates a very lively understanding of spirituality.  And I won't even get into my jar full of jellybeans model of consciousness.

What makes it rock even harder is that advances in the sciences, rather than undermining my spirituality, helps to reinforce it.  I have a sneaking suspicion that physicists are closer to the truth of this whole spirit thing than even they realize.  I am eagerly awaiting the invention of new tools to their more interesting theories.  I guess that goes back to engaging my imagination since you need quite a healthy one to even wrap your head around some of the theories.

Actually, Joshua Neff, that's not far from what I'm talking about.  Acceptance of sex as part of life, and willingness to be comfortable enough to joke about it, and notice that in the joke no-one is being put-down or harrassed or made to feel shame.

One of my old favorite UU jokes: How many UU-LRY (Liberal Religious Youth being the '80s term for 15-18 yos) does it take to screw in a lightbulb? UU-LRY don't screw in lightbulbs. They screw in sleeping-bags. And sometimes hot tubs.

My all-time favorite UU joke is longer, and about holidays, so not really relevant in the thread.

Quote from: Ben LehmanP.S.  I recommend the Zhuangzi (AKA Chuang Tzu) heartily.  It rocks.  It's like William S. Borroughs does Taoist philosophy.

Zhuangzi was my first real introduction to Tao, and it profoundly colored my feelings thereabout.

As an "Abrahamic" student, I will also say that, in my opinion (and in the opinion of centuries or millennia of mystic Jews before me) that the incomprehensibility of the Godhead should, in no way, prevent you from studying it arduously, developing your intuition, wisdom, knowledge, and logic in the persuit of what might be beyond the reaches of your perception.

Rabbi Akiva, for instance, who holds a place of Buddha-like veneration among many Jews, is said to have seen the face of God and entered divine consciousness. It is also said that three others who did so died, went insane, and became pantheist (respectively).

So, in Jewish tradition, it's not considered impossible, nor is it considered an unworthy persuit, but it is considered dangerous. Hence the proscriptions about who may study the more drash elements of Judaism.

I'm not going to say that my religion RAWKS, in that my practice within a Gnostic Christian/Independent Catholic church may not make sense to a lot of people, and I wouldn't encourage anyone to attend unless they were already on that same wavelength.  (I mean, we don't get too many people attending on Sundays...)  But it I think it gives me the codes I need to access God.  I think I might also be able to get effective access codes as an Episcopalian, Sufi or Tibetan Buddhist, but I know that being a Southern Baptist or Roman Catholic wouldn't work too well.  But I think all religions RAWK to the extent that they provide people the effective symbolic systems and practices, allow suspension of disbelief and not oppress followers or others.

Do people need religion?  I think it's unhealthy for people to supress their spiritual nature, but people can exercise this part of themselves in ways that don't necessarily look like religion.  I know someone who gets a lot from communing with trees.

This "access code" stuff is part of my current model of religion and spirituality:

I believe that our brain is a tool that allows us to access the non-physical realm of consciousness, just as an abacus is a tool to access the non-physical realm of mathematics.  Our consciousness, in turn, is a tool that allows us to access the non-physical realm of spirit.  We exist as an intersection of all of these realms: part matter, part consciousness, part spirit.  

In all cases, there's not a sharp dividing line between us and the rest of existence.  There is not a fixed border between our body and the world around us.  Our consciousness is part of a universal consciouness.  Our spirit is part of a universal, infinite existence, which I will call God.

For some reason, we by default have the experience of being separate components locked into bodies, some of us having a hard time recognizing the spiritual world that we exist within.  People generally use belief systems to perceive and interact within this divine realm.  Belief systems give us access codes, in the form of ritual and symbols.  These allow our consciousness to contact the spiritual, either directly or by first using our bodies to modify our consciousness.

Different belief systems give us different spiritual experiences, but they are all effective if their rituals or symbols are effective access codes.  People who devote their lives to exploring the spiritual realm -- mystics -- end up having spiritual experiences that are similar, even if they start from different belief systems.  This is because the greater the experience, the more common spiritual territory is being accessed.

Many people hold to their belief systems rigidly, as if they are the only path to God.  This might be a helpful tool for them, especially if they have a hard time suspending disbelief.  It's also possible to be aware of ones beliefs as something that can be put on, like a suit of clothes.  I'm aware that these beliefs that I'm stating here are just the model that I'm operating under at this moment, a story that allows me to make sense of the spiritual.

I think faith is something distinct from beliefs.  Faith is trusting in our spiritual self and its connection with God, just as, or more than, we trust in the connection of our physical self with the world.

Yasha,

I dig that approach to religion.  As an addendum to that, I'd like to put forth the idea that the tools of each religion are not as exclusive as people like to believe.  When stripped of exotic terms for simple ideas and when approached from the attitude of seeking to understand (as opposed to deconstruct or proselytize), there are many common elements between religions, though the expression of those elements differs significantly.  These differences in expression, rather than detracting from spiritual awareness, actually adds to it.  Simply put, it is because people, though sharing a common humanity, still remain individuals.  To speak of humanity and ignore the human seems to me kind of backward.  It is probably this tendency that has made me shy away from organized religion.

Hmm...  why not?

My religion rawks because it's right...  Okay, seriously though.

I tend to consider myself to be fundamentalist Christian, I'm probably recognizably so in the classic, American pop-culture way (i.e. Bible thumping, hard line, all that jazz).  Let me see if I can lay it out rationally.

I believe there's a God in the traditional Abrahamic sense.  As the creator of all that is He (not that God is actually male, but I think there are some pretty good reasons for using the male pronoun) gets:

1. Perfect understanding of the way things work.
2. To make the rules (which of course is one of the reasons that He understands those rules).

So, when He makes some rules and says some things are bad, it's because they actually are bad.  I mean, He should know right?  Just because we may not fully understand why they're bad doesn't make them any less bad.  Now, that's not supposed to be a cop-out.  In fact I think that with enough experience and observation it becomes clear why this stuff is bad.

It's sort of like when you tell a child not to touch a hot stove.  There's a very good reason not to touch the hot stove.  The child's lack of perception of that reason does not lessen the validity of that reason.  And if the child touches the stove anyway, well their experience will show that you were correct all along.

This, by the way, is why condemnation of people is silly.  You don't get mad at a child for touching the stove, that's what kids do...  That doesn't mean that what they're doing is a good idea, and it doesn't mean that you approve of them doing it, but you don't blame them for it (well, at least not until they've been doing it over and over in the face of evidence to the contrary... maybe).

So, that gets me from a questionable premise "There is a God in the Abrahamic sense" (suffice it to say that I think that I have good reasons for it) to the things that I think logically follow, but it doesn't come anywhere near explaining why I think that the "traditional" Christianity has more of it right than any of the others.

I guess my only answer is that in my (admittedly limited) experience with religions and their tenets, I have observed Christianity to be the most consistent with what experience tells me is the way things actually work...

Admittedly a lot of this is based on comfort and familiarity, but I like to think that it's not really blind faith...

So, why does my religion rock?  Because it makes me a better person.  It teaches me to observe and to think more clearly.  It lets me meet some incredibly interesting, talented, and just plain awesome people.  Anyone who wants to join me... just ask :)

Oh, which reminds me... conversion.  The reason I think conversion is important is that part of my beliefs include the idea that other people are occassionally (or often) wrong.  I want for people to be right, since that would, according to my beliefs, make the world a better place...

Of course you have to approach that the right way.  The way I see a lot people approaching the whole "evangilzation" thing is pretty silly to me, but that doesn't make the ideas behind that invalid...

Thomas

So, replying to Christopher's comment about Taoism:

Yeah, at some point in my past I read Zhuangzi and said to myself, "That man really understands his place in the world."

I'm an atheist.  I don't have a lot more to say about it than that.

Quote from: LordSmerfI believe there's a God in the traditional Abrahamic sense. As the creator of all that is He (not that God is actually male, but I think there are some pretty good reasons for using the male pronoun) gets:

What reasons are those? Because among many Jews, including me, using the pronoun "He" is considered idolatry.

QuoteOf course you have to approach that the right way. The way I see a lot people approaching the whole "evangilzation" thing is pretty silly to me, but that doesn't make the ideas behind that invalid...

"Silly" doesn't cover it. It's inherently disrespectful, corruptive, and is, at its core, groupthink. As the frequent subject of such attempts (homeless people tell me their conspiracy theories, too. I don't know what it is about me...), I'm very wary of such behavior. Christians have a lot of violence and horror to answer for when they consider their way "right" and worthy of advertisement.

So, look, when God said "Don't eat pigs, circumcize your children, sacrifice sheep, flour, and oil four times a year, and pay everyone who works for you at the end of the day they worked," was God wrong then? Of course not. Things change, right? The very fact that you have to pick and choose indicates that there is no clear answer to be gained from Torah. If there were, there would be no Talmud.

I understand that much of Christianity is based on a different covenant than that of Abraham, and that's cool - do whatever you want. But that means that the very core of the religious philosophy is based on negating the previous millennia of religious experience, not to mention the extraordinary things that happened in the centuries immediately predating Jesus' story.

Your right to make a fist - and conversion is often done with a fist (http://www.middleeast.org/forum/fb-public/1/4190.shtml) - ends at the tip of my nose.

I'm not willing to say my religion rawks. Every day, I go about my life with a heart full of doubt, because when I don't doubt, I don't look closely - why look if you know the answer? - and when I don't look closely, all I see is what I want to see, regardless of what's there.

Hullo!

I'm representing what has not yet been presented in this thread yet, a Catholic.

I am enthralled by many aspects of the faith structure.

I am in love with the verbal message and the message of the life of Christ.
I am in love with the message of a holy life being one in service to one's neighbors.
I am in love with the message of continual striving for perfection!
I am in love with the message that we are all flawed and thus no one can claim to be holier (perfect) than any other.
I am in love with the message of love the sinner, hate the sin.
I am in love with the message of turn the other cheek.
I am in love with the absolute centrality of the message of forgiveness.
I am in love with the message of responsibility for ones actions as well as for the welfare to others.
I am in love with the message that we are all one family and really don't have a right to bicker with one another since we have all done something to bicker about at one time or another.
I love the fact that every priest and bishop can trace their history back in an unbroken line to the apostles.
I love the incredibly rich 2000 year collected repository of wisdom and writings.
I am in love with the idea that our perfect God came down to our imperfect nature to not only show us the way, but to suffer what we suffer.  He has taken the gift we offered to him, pain and suffering, and in return he gave us the gift of eternal life and infinite happiness and wisdom.
I love the fact that we are told very specifically that in evangelizing we are to do no more than call and if a person is not interested all we are supposed to do is walk away.
I love the message that the very best way to evangelize is to live the message.
I love the message that Christ lives in all of us and what we do to the poorest, the weakest and the most helpless among us we do to Christ himself.
I love the fact that God still acts in this world everyday creating miracles small and large.

The miracle at Fatima on October 13, 1917 witnessed by approximately 70,000 people.  Not only were the people able to look directly at the sun with no damage to their eyes, the sun moved and danced about changing colors.  While all this may have been "mass hysteria," which I don't buy, every person there who had been waiting in a soaking rain and standing in mud were both clean and dry by the end of the miracle some 10 minutes later.  70,000 people!  I was reported by journalists, Dr.'s, government officials, letters by individuals, etc.
Padre Pio in Italy who died in 1968 was a stigmatic who could soul read and this was done thousands of times – even to skeptics who came to debunk him.  Many were healed of ailments including a very young girl whose kidneys regrew after seeing him after hers had been removed in surgery.  The surgeon who removed them saw her after her return and was thunderstruck that what he had physically removed was once be seen in her X-rays.  Later Padre Pio could only eat the consecrated host, and this he would do but once a day.  To prove this was not a hoax he was placed into a hospital room for about a week under constant observation and was only allowed to have one consecrated host a day.  Not only did he not lose weight, but he actually put weight on!  Hundred if not thousands of miracles were witnessed around him.
In Los Angeles at a small church called San Conrado Mission the priest there Father Aloysius Ellacuria had been seen many times by many parishioners to levitate during the consecration of the host.  He was active until he died about 20 years ago.[/list:u]
I love the message of an absolute truth.
I love the idea of an afterlife freeing me up from the fear of death.
I love the idea that there is more to life than is apparent to our physical senses.
I love the idea that all our lives have meaning and that we are loved to a level beyond comprehension.
I love the idea that our lord can forgive any sin, just by the contrite asking.
I love the idea that there is more merit in our Lord's eyes in the forgiving of a friend than there is in martyrdom.
I love the idea of perpetual hope and that no matter how rough life gets I am not the only one to have suffered in a similar fashion.
I love the idea by looking at our world and knowing that while we are commanded to make this one as good as we can, that we are only sojourning here and that there is an infinitely better one to come!
I love the idea that no good deed, however small and private, goes unnoticed or unrewarded.
I love the idea that we are challenged to increase our faith and understanding.

I love the idea of infinite love and perfect wisdom!

God Bless everyone!  Peace and goodwill to all!

Just because I haven't seen anyone else post on the pagan side of things (even though I know a few pagans have posted...)

I consider myself a contemplative polytheist / animist.

I don't believe in karma (except in the original 'consequences' meaning).
I don't believe in reincarnation (though I do believe in recycling...)

I believe in the cycle of life ( wolves eat deer eat grass eats....), and I belive in it applied on a greater scale. Namely, life comes with death, and you must kill to live, period. Recognizing that, I belive that we/I have an obligation to maintain community with all those spirits. In other words, there is an obligation to give equal to the amount taken. So, it supports veregtarianism, without requiring it.

I believe it's important to maintain relationships with the spirits and gods and ancestors around us, as a further corollary to the above idea.

I believe daily practice (meditation, prayer, sacrifice, etc.) is the way to maintain those relationships.

I believe that each individual must find the practices which fulfill their obligations for themselves.

That's why my religion RAWKs.

Set.

Patron deity of the anomic outsiders alienated by Christianity's heavy fist. Fratricidal bringer-down of the twin towers.

The Temple of Set have no idea; they're just trying to blackwash libertarian Satanism.