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Independent Game Forums => Adept Press => Topic started by: Trevis Martin on April 11, 2005, 10:43:54 PM



Title: Anna Kerenina R-map
Post by: Trevis Martin on April 11, 2005, 10:43:54 PM
I found it  here:  http://www.oprah.com/obc_classic/featbook/anna/characters/anna_characters_map.jhtml

while doing a search for relationship maps.  I think it might be useful to someone.  I"m probably going to use it myself.

best,

Trevis


Title: Re: Anna Kerenina R-map
Post by: Per Fischer on April 12, 2005, 01:38:00 AM
Quote from: Trevis Martin
I found it  here:  http://www.oprah.com/obc_classic/featbook/anna/characters/anna_characters_map.jhtml

while doing a search for relationship maps.  I think it might be useful to someone.


Hell, yes! That's great. I never thought about searching for R-maps outside the Forge, silly me.

Maybe an collection of r-maps (or links to them) would be useful on the wiki-page? Can anybody upload them there or do you have to be granted access rights?

Per

Edited for spelling mistakes.


Title: Anna Kerenina R-map
Post by: Ron Edwards on April 12, 2005, 04:51:48 AM
Hi,

Wow, they even use the term "relationship map!" Which as far as I know, I made up myself. I guess it's a pretty intuitive term (despite gamers' bizarre resistance to the core/main relationships), hence likely to show up independently.

One big real-world application for maps, or better, relationship maps juxtaposed with organizational affinities (and therefore an "annotated map" as I have described before) is espionage. Markus Wolf, for many years the head of the East German foreign espionage agency, writes extensively about his use of them, and it's clear that many KGB-associated endeavors were based on looking for disjunct spots between the relationship map and the putative official/agencies map. Wolf called his diagram technique the Spider's Web.

I find it especially fascinating that ideology played little or no role in this technique; people in the Web were not rated by leftist/etc concerns.

Best,
Ron


Title: Anna Kerenina R-map
Post by: Larry L. on April 12, 2005, 05:48:11 AM
"How Oprah's Website Made My Game Kick Ass"

Only on the Forge.


Title: Anna Kerenina R-map
Post by: matthijs on April 12, 2005, 07:29:22 AM
Link's not working for me...


Title: Anna Kerenina R-map
Post by: Mike Holmes on April 12, 2005, 12:25:55 PM
It also refers to it as a Character Map. Too cool. I now have to figure out how to make my own maps like that.

I'm also now thinking that it might be possible to come up with a random map generator. I mean, sans knowing the plot of Anna Karenina, how much more useful is this map than one like it, generated at random?

If someone came up with an editor for something like this, I think it might be popular.

Oh, and sure you were doing a search for this, Trevis. Because you wouldn't be caught reading oprah.com, wouldya? You just came across it by accident, right? Suuure.  ;-)

Mike


Title: Anna Kerenina R-map
Post by: Trevis Martin on April 12, 2005, 02:39:18 PM
Note to self: Mike knows too much, have him eliminated.

This looks like it was done in flash with a pretty simple structure.  There's gotta be a way to set up a generator like in a scripting language.  It wouldn't be flash, but heck, I'm looking into it.

matthjs, the link isn't working at all or the map isn't showing up?  If the latter you might be missing the flash plugin for your browser.

Ron,

That's interesting about the spy.  I'll have to look him up.


--Trevis


Title: Anna Kerenina R-map
Post by: matthijs on April 12, 2005, 10:46:49 PM
Works now, different machine - yes, it was a Flash plug-in problem.

I'm a Flash programmer - it's fairly easy to make a program that generates random r-maps and displays them with mouseovers etc. I'd do it, but time, time, time...


Title: Re: Anna Kerenina R-map
Post by: Trevis Martin on April 12, 2005, 11:43:33 PM
Quote from: pfischer


Maybe an collection of r-maps (or links to them) would be useful on the wiki-page? Can anybody upload them there or do you have to be granted access rights?


You mean Doyce's Randomwiki? (http://random.average-bear.com/pmwiki.php/Sorcerer/HomePage)  Its pretty much open for anyone to edit.  I don't even think you need to register or anything.

And you're right, it would be a good idea.

Trevis


Title: Re: Anna Kerenina R-map
Post by: Per Fischer on April 13, 2005, 01:33:38 AM
Quote from: Trevis Martin

You mean Doyce's Randomwiki? (http://random.average-bear.com/pmwiki.php/Sorcerer/HomePage)  Its pretty much open for anyone to edit.  I don't even think you need to register or anything.
Trevis


Yeah, that's what I meant. In the meantime I have found out that apparently anybody can edit the pages, which is great.

So, if you know of a R-map out there, post here and I will update a list of links there as well.

The R/maps for my Dark Places scenario are here: http://darkplaces.squarespace.com/display/ShowGallery?moduleId=84647&galleryId=8020
They are in Danish, but should't be hard to understand. There's one with and one without player characters.

Per


Title: Anna Kerenina R-map
Post by: Mike Holmes on April 13, 2005, 06:27:16 AM
Don't know why I didn't think of this before, but in relation to what Ron said, and if you want examples of just how complicated real life relationships are, recently Paul Czege came to town, and we went and saw an exhibit by a guy named Mark Lombardi. Fascninating stuff, it's about the people involved in different scandals in recent history, and things of that sort. His "art" is basically huge relationship maps that mostly "follow the money." Somewhat like conspiracy theory, but pretty factual.

This page shows several, though you can't read them due to the size reduction. But you get the idea: http://www.pierogi2000.com/flatfile/lombardi.html

In the second pic there's a legible bit in which you can see how Bush is linked into one of the maps.

Interestingly, after we went to look at these, it reminded me of something from very early in the days of RPGs, the Module included with the original edition of Top Secret, Operation Sprechenhaltestelle. I pulled it out when we got to my place.

Aside: If you ever want to see the evolution of the "dungeon adventure" into adventures for other genres, here's the "missing link." Just as the blue box basic D&D came with module B1 Descent Into the Unknown, in which as a beginners module, it left space for the GM to stock monsters and treasures in each room, so too in this TS module did each location on the map (which, yes, included dungeon-like sewers), had a space for "Human Target" and "Physical Target." The monsters and treasures of the spy trade. But I digress...

In Operation S, at the back of the book after all of the dungeony description, there's a chart that shows the communication relationships between all of the people in this part of the city. Tabular in format, each character is listed with all of the people with whom he has certain sorts of commo (direct two way, direct one way, drop two way, drop one way, etc). A very primitive character map for espionage. I think it's fasinating that the characters do not have names, but are simply given an alphanumeric like A1 to list them. Apparently it's not important who anyone is, but only who you know, and how you get information (this also lets players kill them like monsters, BTW, without remorse that they're killing real people).

I think that Rassmussen may have elaborated on this in The Dragon at some point, but I can't remember for sure. There is something about this in the rulebook, too, but it's scanty. I don't know if this was handled the same in later editions (like SI), I never owned those. If anyone has them I'd be interested in hearing about how it was handled there.

Mike


Title: Anna Kerenina R-map
Post by: Ron Edwards on April 13, 2005, 06:30:15 AM
Hi there,

Don't forget the map that didn't get included in The Sorcerer's Soul, for the Enchanted Pool scenario - available for download at the Errata page (http://www.sorcerer-rpg.com/brochure.php/errata.html). I'd greatly appreciate it if you could include that one, Per.

Best,
Ron


Title: Anna Kerenina R-map
Post by: Andy Kitkowski on April 27, 2005, 10:12:35 AM
I just wanted to say that I'm not political or anything, but I saw this today (found off a discussion at RPGNet, actually) and was freaked out by the level of detail, it's like that Anna K map, above, with more bells and whistles:

http://houseofscandal.org/main.html

EDIT: Warning: I was looking at it earlier with the sound turned off. I just noticed that there are "sound effects" on that site when you mouse over the figures (esp Tom Delay), so maybe turn the sound down.

Again, Not. Political. Here.  Just wanted to show people how a relationship map can REALLY be used.  Manually, though, it might be a little daunting to create such a thing on paper, unless for example you put the commentary Under the pic/representation of that character, and where this site makes "visual red-line connections", you just write "See Also, Element A, Element B, Element C".

Where a relationship map is a great "game map" of a Sorcerer adventure, I figure something like the above would be a relationship map of a Sorcerer campaign that is wrapping up.


Title: Anna Kerenina R-map
Post by: Rob MacDougall on April 27, 2005, 01:37:51 PM
Quote from: Mike Holmes
I think that Rassmussen may have elaborated on this in The Dragon at some point, but I can't remember for sure. There is something about this in the rulebook, too, but it's scanty. I don't know if this was handled the same in later editions (like SI), I never owned those. If anyone has them I'd be interested in hearing about how it was handled there.


Mike:

I've got most of the old Top Secret modules spanning the years from the original to S.I. I very much remember the "missing link" aspect of Sprechenhaltestelle as you describe. I'll take a look at the others when I can and get back to you on their evolution. (In another thread, that is.)


Title: Anna Kerenina R-map
Post by: Jere on April 27, 2005, 02:54:49 PM
Quote from: Ron Edwards
Hi,

Wow, they even use the term "relationship map!" Which as far as I know, I made up myself. I guess it's a pretty intuitive term (despite gamers' bizarre resistance to the core/main relationships), hence likely to show up independently.


Have you read any literature on data mapping? You do know the term has been used since the '70s right?

Jeremiah


Title: Anna Kerenina R-map
Post by: Ron Edwards on April 28, 2005, 12:24:26 PM
Hello,

Jere, I'm familiar with lots of things called data mapping, officially and unofficially. It's a pretty various term. I won't be able to answer your question unless you are more specific.

But I'm also confused about your point. I'm talking about the term relationship map as applied to a diagram composed primarily of ties based on kinship and sexual contact. Talking about another term doesn't seem relevant to the text you quoted.

If you're talking about the technique, rather than the term, specifically the technique of connecting things with circles and arrows, then note, I didn't lay claim to inventing that myself.

Best,
Ron


Title: Anna Kerenina R-map
Post by: Thierry Michel on May 25, 2005, 07:14:32 AM
Quote from: Mike Holmes
I'm also now thinking that it might be possible to come up with a random map generator. I mean, sans knowing the plot of Anna Karenina, how much more useful is this map than one like it, generated at random?

If someone came up with an editor for something like this, I think it might be popular.


There is a free graph editor there. No flash or mouseovers but nice all the same

Generating random graphs might not be as easy as it sounds because real social networks have some peculiar properties (the whole small-world literature is about that).