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My parents have always been very supportive of my gaming.  They think its great that I use my imagination with my friends and always have.

When a co-worker of my father's told him that the game I played was Satanic he shrugged and responded, "We're Jews, I don't think he bothers us much."

So, I am going to visit him in Georgia and I'd love to introduce him to the hobby, just run an adventure, either just a solo game or for a nice couple he's friends with (and possibly their college age kids).

Does anyone have any experience with this?

Setting it up?

Talking about what it is that we are about to do?

I know Luke tried to run a game with his girlfriend's parents; I'll try to dig up that thread...(http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=13513&highlight=parents)

Any thoughts are appreciated.

Thanks.

My only advice is to try a group game, and to focus on what parts you think your father is interested in. My mother has always been fascinated by the idea of role-playing (coming from a sort of literary perspective) and I eventually set up a brief adventure for her -- this was many years ago, so unfortunately it was just D&D; not exactly the easiest for someone not familiar with the hobby.

At any rate, while she liked the fantastical elements, the aspect of creating the SIS with other fellow-players was absent because it was a solo game. While solo gaming certainly is still RPing, I find that it tends to be less fulfilling. And group play is far more representative of the hobby. If you want to help your father understand, the group aspect may be important. Just my 2c.

my biggest revelation was that none of the mechanical/technical rpg innovations that are so cool to us mean anything to him.

You need something that addresses his casual gamer priorities directly. How will he connect to the hobby? Does he like historial detail? A fan of a certain genre of movies? Loves to read X books?

What part of his imagination can you spark so he'll say, "I want to be/do/try that" ?

-L

My father loves samurai epics.  He also loves big guys with big weapons being a pretty big guy but never having gotten himself a big weapon.

He's the one who got me into comic books and fantasy films.  We used to read Lone Wolf and Cub together and talk about it a bunch afterwards.

He's been in corporate security for a tremendous part of his professional life, having been in charge of JFK's perimeter security all through the early 90's.

I'm thinkin' of saddling him up with a Crab Clan samurai in the new edition of L5R.

I just sent him the following e-mail:

QuoteDad,

Think of this as a movie trailer but for a game.  You don't have to know what everything means just yet. You  definitely don't have to know how it will turn out.  

All that's important is that you get the vibe.  Its epic samurai fantasy.  It isn't quite Japan.  It has as much to do with Japan as the Lord of the Ring's Middle-Earth has to do with historical medieval Norway.

You'll be playing a big, gruff samurai with a testubo who has recently inhereted his father's castle and is in charge of his family, soldiers and a tremendous responsibility.

Judd



Your father left you a piece of the Kaiu Wall.  It is the same stretch of wall that your family has guarded for generations, set to the task by the Hida Family Daymio, the warrior family of the Crab Clan.  

Above your castle's door are the words, "Millions Die If I am Weak," carved into the stone by masons long ago.

On the western side of the wall is a lovely countryside, white cherry blossoms, rolling hills, a crystal bay.  On the eastern side is a hellish
landscape filled with globlins, demons and all manner of nightmares.

The Empire never thanks you for doing your duty, only notices when some monstrousity escapes.  The Empire does not send enough resources to keep the wall strong, only court politics and disdain.

And you receive three letters:

1) A Lion Courtier from the capital city of Otusan Uchii wishes to take a tour of the Shadowlands, see the danger for himself.  He is being sent to your stretch of the wall.

2) While buying provisions in ths next province, your brother has fallen in love with a beautiful maiden in the effete Crane Clan; she is promised to another.

3) Maidens have gone missing in a nearby village.  The headman has asked that a Kuni Witch-Hunter be sent, but they are few and far between.  One might wait years gaining an audience with a true Witch-Hunter.

Millions Die If I am Weak

not to be elitist, but why not use The Mountain Witch?

-L

Quote from: abzunot to be elitist, but why not use The Mountain Witch?

-L

I have found that for beginners, taking contrl of the the narration can be a ltitle over-whelming.

Also, and more importantly, it will likely be a solo game and the trust mechanics would go to unused and they are the heart and soul of that game.

My mother is similarly very curious about RPGs, and I've been trying to figure out what to play with her.  She doesn't read a lot of fantasy on her own, and only a bit of science fiction.  She's mostly a murder mystery or "serious books" type.

Hmm...

yrs--
--Ben

Quote from: abzunot to be elitist, but why not use The Mountain Witch?

That's not elitist. It's good advice, but for:

Quote from: Paka
it will likely be a solo game and the trust mechanics would go to unused and they are the heart and soul of that game.

That's the biggest issue there.

But! I'd say that your dad, being a guy who does stuff, and likes things, and not a gamer, is going to be a lot more flummoxed by D20 or (shudder) Legend of Five Rings than he is by, say, Dogs in the Vineyard, run as Yojimbo.

So that would be my advice. Surprise, surprise.

Quote from: nikola

But! I'd say that your dad, being a guy who does stuff, and likes things, and not a gamer, is going to be a lot more flummoxed by D20 or (shudder) Legend of Five Rings than he is by, say, Dogs in the Vineyard, run as Yojimbo.

So that would be my advice. Surprise, surprise.

Its the old roll and keep system, not d20.

I wouldn't go the d20 route for a new gamer who hasn't done anything like this before.

For a solo game with a trusted GM (that'd be me) I think a mainstream traditional RPG isn't going to be bad.

That said, I have to finish reading through L5R 3rd edition yet.  But I'll bring along some different indie RPG's in case what I read in L5R bugs me.

His reply to my trailer e-mail:

QuoteI LOVE IT

I think setting the tone and getting him into the mindset is going to be more important for a first game.

Quote from: Paka
His reply to my trailer e-mail:

QuoteI LOVE IT

I think setting the tone and getting him into the mindset is going to be more important for a first game.

Yeah! So use something that sets that mind and tone!

Now, I don't know L5R well at all. But I do know that the reason I haven't played it is because I like samurai movies.

Quote from: nikolaYeah! So use something that sets that mind and tone!

Now, I don't know L5R well at all. But I do know that the reason I haven't played it is because I like samurai movies.

This thread will not turn into a why L5R is crap thread.  I refuse to let that happen.  This is us agreeing to disagree and moving on.  

When sitting a parent down to play, Luke had some interesting words on how he had to back up:

Quote from: abzuAs soon as I started on my standard demo pitch, I realized that I'd already lost the 'rents. They had absolutely no frame of reference for what was going on. The basic die rolling mechanics meant absolutely nothing to them. Why roll dice? What for? When?

Whoa. So I had to start with a very basic discussion of the overarching mechanics of roleplay -- shared imagined space, character/role, resolution mechanic for uncertain outcomes.

This is interesting to me.  I am just thinking of what I will say to him when we first talk about the numbers on his character sheet and when he rolls and when not.

Its just interesting to have to break it all down.

I'm kind of hoping that it goes well and I get to run Star Wars Jedi Paladin with him and a few of his friends.

We'll see.

Quote from: PakaThis thread will not turn into a why L5R is crap thread.  I refuse to let that happen.  This is us agreeing to disagree and moving on.

OK. But keep in mind that I don't even know enough about the system to dis it, other than to say that the book's ugly. I seriously don't know anything about the system.

Quote from: abzuWhoa. So I had to start with a very basic discussion of the overarching mechanics of roleplay -- shared imagined space, character/role, resolution mechanic for uncertain outcomes.

Quote from: PakaThis is interesting to me.  I am just thinking of what I will say to him when we first talk about the numbers on his character sheet and when he rolls and when not.

Yeah! Totally! That's where the conversation should be taking place. I think most character sheets are full of nonsense and distraction and a system that has only what it needs and uses will go a long way.

Sounds like you have a pretty good thing locked in, which is great. I just want to toss out another opinion real quick.

If I was going to introduce anyone to gaming, I would use Primetime Adventures. The frame of reference is there. The idea of characters that have issues and deal with them is there. The ability to basically do any setting is there. Personally, I think that having players narrate stuff is more familiar to non-gamers, though I'm sure thats not universally true.

Anyway, a couple more cents for the bank.

It could very easily be that in my dark, evil heart of hearts, I don't believe giving narration to the first-time players is rough but that it is just, giving narrative control over is something I am just learning to do and I am not yet fully comfortable with it.  So, I am setting the game in a more traditional GM-Player mode so that I can feel more comfortable.

Hm.

Anyway, asked him if he had any suggestions, thoughts or additionns to the e-mail I sent him and he replied:

QuoteI am married to Matua, daughter to a fallen grand master and mistress of the art of -------------. Twin sons Tyi and Sogen 8 years old, and brother-in-law to Hayete who is a Kuni Witch Hunter. Hayete and I have not spoken since the twins were born.

To which I replied:

Holy shit, we have a GAMER on our hands.

Quote from: PakaSo, I am setting the game in a more traditional GM-Player mode so that I can feel more comfortable.

Hm.

I'd say that's pretty astute, Judd. And not a bad call. If you're nervous, your players sense it.

And I'm guessing that you're nervous. If you'd asked  "I have a player who's a lot older than I am who wants to play, what do I do?"  that would be a really odd question. I mean, it's just another player, right? The only thing that makes this odd is specifically that you're playing with your father.

And that makes you nervous. Or, well maybe I'm projecting. But playing with my father would make me nervous. Actually I did it once, 27 years ago...

Consider: it's your father, the man from who you've sought approval all your life. And the one who doesn't play games any more, since he's an "adult" (meaning to his generation, "one who has put aside childish things"). So you have to prove to him that this hobby of yours is as valid as his golf habit. Or you're not a man.

Again, I may be projecting here, but that'd make me nervous.

So what I'm guessing is that you're looking for how to not be nervous here?

Sorry, I got nothing for ya. As we say, this is a social level problem. Have you thought about taking up golf? ;-)

QuoteAnyway, asked him if he had any suggestions, thoughts or additionns to the e-mail I sent him and he replied:

QuoteI am married to Matua, daughter to a fallen grand master and mistress of the art of -------------. Twin sons Tyi and Sogen 8 years old, and brother-in-law to Hayete who is a Kuni Witch Hunter. Hayete and I have not spoken since the twins were born.

To which I replied:

Holy shit, we have a GAMER on our hands.

Soo....just why do you think that new players can't narrate their own material? ;-)

Mike

Quote from: Mike HolmesSoo....just why do you think that new players can't narrate their own material? ;-)

Mike

This is me, carefully reading over the L5R 3rd edition rules while downloading the samurai add-on for Dust Devils, which was my first foray into indie RPG's and handing narrative control to the players.

Hi Judd,

thanks for dredging up that old thread. I'm flattered! And I'm glad I posted that, because when I think back to that evening's game, that's exactly the sense I am left with.

Learning to roll the dice and what each roll is for is pie easy. Learning WHY you roll dice, learning to control your character -- either via RP, narration apportioned mechanics or instruction -- is tough.

Some folks, I've found, hit the ground running. Like your dad, they have a good grasp of the source material and they know the paces from what they've read or seen.

Watch for that. He's probably going to want action and narrative control similar to what he's read in books or seen in film. I found I hit turbulence when the game controls diverge from those impulses.

-L

OK, I'm just going to pile on here and say that great, DD is a sensible choice compared to mainstream. I know that this is just our strongly skewed communal Forge hive mind speaking, but I join in anyway because I believe in it.

I'm imagining playing with my own father. What I wouldn't want is any of the excess simulation/emulation crap mainstream games are filled with. I wouldn't want to have to explain about a climbing skill being on the character sheet in a samurai epic. I would't really care about explaining a swordswinging skill - the character is a friggin' samurai hero, so of course he's as good as can be. What I'd want is that I could explain everything my father needed to participate without having to say one word about things that are not immediately pertinent.

Now, I love Dust Devils dearly, but I still might think that it has too much character profile to get a game going with a middle-aged man. The character sheet in that game is really saying "Learn my strengths, learn my weaknesses." to me, when I imagine being a middle-aged non-roleplayer. I'd be worried about learning what my character can do, because that's mostly what the DD character sheet is about. The character sheet in that game is not about the things the game is about, which is a bit of a problem.

What else would I use then, that wouldn't have this "character profile problem"? I don't know... perhaps MLwM (if the genre would fit) or PTA (if I had multiple players). Both of those only include stuff with clear relevancy on the character sheet. Neither fits a samurai epic. Pool is another game I'd consider, especially if the preparation were otherwise solid. It's a tad freeform, but at least the system's expandable (the players can define new traits when he gets the hang of it) and only relevant stuff is ever written down.

But still, even then, I think that Dust Devils is a fine, fine choice compared to many other games. Actually, consider replacing the skills with motivations / relationships, which would largely correct the character profile problem. Instead of the relatively useless information of "I'm good with a sword" and "I can sing well" you'd have "My honor is my life" and "I love my brother"... Holy shit, that's a brilliant idea. Traits can be switched around to be character class, so that say, a "samurai" gets an additional card for doing samurai things. No need for skills at all, and the system gains a HQ level of story impact.

By the by: I'm not too impressed with RONIN. Suggest considering sticking with the basic Dust Devils system. The ability definitions are awkward in RONIN, which makes it difficult to play at the beginning. A samurai can well have "Honor" or "Duty" as a Devil, so basic DD works fine.

Okay, system aside and I'm strongly leaning towards Dust Devils...

I'm thinking about how this will work.

Its after dinner, a time when we would usually watch some TV.  We clear the table, turn the TV off and I say...

What do I say to explain what it is we are about to do?

That is where I'm stuck, I think.

That opening speech.

I ran a game for D&D with my parents and brother as players about 20 years ago. My Mum played a druid and my Dad a thief. He tried to nick everything that wasn't tied down and took a very gamist approach. He also argued about rules a bit saying they weren't realistic but didn't protest too much. My Mum was more interested in what it was like to be a druid.

They'd both done amateur dramatics so the improvised drama angle was pretty easy to sell to them. They were a bit confused about the rules, particularly my Mum but her attitude was 'just tell me what to roll and I'll worry about interpretation'.

I think saying that it's like Cowboys and Indians or some other kids game but with rules to add more structure and to avoid those awkward moments when there is claim and counterclaim about who's been shot works fairly well.

I'm not sure I'd used DD because the rules are quite complex and the mechanic is almost a game in itself. I see the possibility of confusion. I'd go for something much more vanilla where correspondence between rules and resolution is much more obvious.

Hi Judd,
I'm wondering if your speechifying should consist of:

a) figuring out in advance which of those 3 story threads your Dad is most interested in.
b) Say to him after dinner, "We're gunna drop you in the middle of that situation, you tell me what you want to do - and every once in a while if there's something I want to challenge you on I'll get you to roll the dice." Rephrased for theory however you want, but about that simple.
c) Treat his answer to (a) like a Kicker and get him into the action. Present him with immediate challenges and Bangs.

Reason I suggest that is his "I LOVE IT" response tells me that he's probably not so much into talking about it as he is into getting into it.

Also, I'm not familiar with L5R ... I know that's what you're going to go with but from my point of view as long as the Resolution system is simple to explain and demonstrate (like TSoY or Heroquest), you shouldn't have a problem.

Does he have a name yet? I didn't see it in your e-mail or his.  

How much do you explain pre-play?  I'd suggest borrowing one trick from PTA and making the TV your ally.  

And I'd say don't linger making speeches.  People who're new to the hobby have their own ideas of what roleplaying is, usually cool ones. They can play. They just can't contribute to a discussion about playing.  Which makes discussing it in front of them a bit of a one-sided thing.

Kind of like this...  (and I need to make an example because I can articulate more clearly in specifics than in the abstract):

Quote from: PakaIts after dinner, a time when we would usually watch some TV.  We clear the table, turn the TV off and I say...

"Time for NN's movie." :-) "The easiest thing is for us to simply jump in and start playing, things will become clearer right away.  I have some stuff prepared, I know what some other people in this movie want and I have an idea where things could start.  If you like I'll drop you right in the middle of the first scene and we're off.  
One more thing briefly. Sometimes we'll use dice to decide whether things go one way or the other for NN, but that'll be easier to explain how once we get to the fun of this and start playing.  Basically it's just when we want to make things more dramatic.  
Questions now? If not feel free to stop and ask questions any time. Ready?"

Answer any questions as briefly as you can.  As far as possible keep saying that things are easier to explain once you're playing. And go.


Don't give yourself time to think and don't give him time to think. You'll be nervous (but only until play starts flowing), and he'll be nervous, too, believe me (but will forget about it once he's caught up in creating the game).  He's new to this thing, he wants to have fun but also he wants to perform well.  Fathers look for approval from their adult children as much as the other way round; at least those I know do.  (Took me decades to figure that one out.) My dad looks both to his son and us two daughters.  He tries to keep it a secret, but... :-)

QuoteThat opening speech.

No speech. Start a scene.  That's what you're good at and that's where he wants to go.  



That's 1eurocent and 1penny's worth from me.  (Crazy place, Europe.)

I can add to this two personal experiences of mine, hoping they might help in any way.

1)  I played with my family once, many years ago, on a camping trip. I was about 16 or so and ran a game of Star Wars d6 for my sister (two years younger than me), mum and dad. My dad didn't like it because—he couldn't stand the fact that I was in charge! Now, my dad is a card gamer, always has been. I don't know if that has anything to do with it. Anyway, he told me repeatedly that to him, it was no sensible design for a game to have one person hold absolute control over the set, with no means for the other players to audit him. I guess some of that annoyance came from the fact that this person was me, too. ;o)

Judd, from what you write about your dad, it doesn't seem he's going to have the same concerns, but a classic GM role might still feel odd, especially in a one-on-one where he depends on you to such an extent.

(To complete the story, suffice to say that many years later, my dad went to a LAN party. Afterwards he told me he thought I had a very creative and sociable hobby.)

2)  I once tried to introduce my ex-wife and a friend of hers, both adults with no gaming experience, to roleplaying. I set up a game of Vampire, but since I didn't want to bother them with the numbers and dice, I kept that to myself as GM and let them just describe their characters and go play them. So it was more or less freeform. The interesting thing: they didn't take to the concept of me controlling the world and them controlling their characters. Quite naturally, they claimed director stance and used it. At the time, I didn't know how to respond to that, so the game didn't go half as well as it could have. But Judd, you don't have to make the same mistake.

This second episode confirms Kerstin's point:

QuoteI'd say don't linger making speeches. People who're new to the hobby have their own ideas of what roleplaying is, usually cool ones. They can play.

- Frank

Quote from: PakaWhat do I say to explain what it is we are about to do?

That is where I'm stuck, I think.

That opening speech.

I'm going to agree with the previous posters and suggest that just starting is probably the best way.  When I teach people a new board game, I try to sketch turn sequence and goal, then we play through a practice round or two.  It works out much better than trying to explain how it's all going to hang together.

The "lets start (character's) movie" seems like a pretty good place to start.  I'd begin with a lushly described scene (echoing your "I think setting the tone and getting him into the mindset is going to be more important for a first game.")  Then let him respond-- hopefully to a character that you've introduced, such as a messenger who's presenting the last of the three letters (or something).  

When he narrates something that requires a roll, pause when he's through and briefly explain that letting chance help determing the areas that aren't absolute increases suspense.  Then briefly inform him of the mechanic, what he risks if he fails, and play it out.

I'm fortunate to play with my father on a regular basis.  The concerns about how you'll appear in each other's eyes seems valid, but will hopefully fade as you get further into the game.  Try to encourage anything but passivity (and even that's good, as long as that's a dramatic choice).  It sounds like he's very interested, which should get you through a whole lot.  Good luck!

Scott

For the games in question, I'd just delineate the standard power split you want to see. Simple like, "You play the part of your character, and I play the rest of the world as it responds to his acts."

If you're playing DD, then let him know that he controls everything when he gets narration rights over resolution outcomes. Basically he takes over your part when that happens. Remember "How to Play" an RPG is about who has what credibility when. Just explain that in brief. And then, like everyone is saying, just dive in. Don't overdo it. If questions seem to be extensive, just tell him that he'll see how it goes once play starts.

I would strongly suggest against saying, "It's Cowboys and Indians, but with rules!" Proof that what you're doing is just a child's game with trappings. It's just not accurate, and wrong for this case.

No other players, BTW? Why not? Are you normally comfortable with only one player? I find it a tad too intimate, personally. In the circumstances in question I'd find it good to have a social support structure in place. But that's just me. :-)

Mike

Quote from: Mike Holmes

No other players, BTW? Why not? Are you normally comfortable with only one player? I find it a tad too intimate, personally. In the circumstances in question I'd find it good to have a social support structure in place. But that's just me. :-)

Mike

I've had really great experiences with solo games.

My dad has buddies but I'm not sure how open they'd all be to gaming.  I'd rather start with him and then run a game with his friends later if it works out.

Very cool thread, and "Millions Die If I am Weak" is an awesome hook.

Possibly it's just Latest Toy Syndrome, but I'd be tempted to suggest using Dogs in the Vineyard for the mechanics, because of how smoothly it handles conflict and escalation.  What's worth killing for?  What's worth dying for?  Where does right action under heaven lie, if one must choose between honor and duty?  Or between Love and Family? But maybe that's just me.

Edit: Oh, and Relationships!  That you're more effective when defending your Lord, or your section of the Wall, is just golden.

Whatever you choose, I'm very much looking forward to hearing how it goes!

Quote from: PakaMy dad has buddies but I'm not sure how open they'd all be to gaming.  I'd rather start with him and then run a game with his friends later if it works out.

Heh, I was thinking, actually, of him playing with other people that you normally play with.

Mike

Quote from: Mike HolmesHeh, I was thinking, actually, of him playing with other people that you normally play with.

Mike

I'm visiting him where he lives, otherwise I'd do precisely that.

Hmmm... I'd have to crank back the memory file about 15 years (which makes me 14), playing the Dutch version of Das Schwarze Auge (D&Desque) with both my father and my grandfather.

My father knew about the hobby from me talking about it and the books I left lying around the house. My grandfather knew nothing. It was raining, there was a sample scenario in the rules, and I think my father and grandfather wanted to humor me.

We started with character generation - something I'd skip, now, as non-important (at least, at the 'crunch' level Then we dove into the pregen adventure. It was a mess (all I really remember is not getting anywhere significant, game-wise). Then dinner came around, I think, or they got fed up with it and told me to play on my own again (not a bad thing when they'd already given me 3 hours of their time non-stop).

Nowaday, were I to play with my dad, i'd ask him what he'd find cool about playing this time (Having a pawn, rolling dice, overcoming obstacles? Creating a lush movie? Investigating what something means to you, as a person?). But I think you're beyond that point already - ideas are already flowing, story's already being written. So just go with it. He's telling you stuff about his character's family? That's all good - just add stuff to match, traditional GM or not. At some point, you'll both be looking for inspiration, or disagree on what to do. I'd just roll one die for every fact you can remember from previous conversations that's applicable to the sides of conflict - or of the possible results of an uncertain action you're about to take together. Skew the odds if one result's more likely than the other.

Bit like universalis. Make up rules on the fly as you need them.

If you're creating a wonderful story and spending cool time together, that's sweet. If there's challenge lacking - add some challenge rules. If there's meaning lacking, gime him some hard, theme-adressing choices to make (and get some in return).

i.e. drift all over the place till you find a spot you like.

Also, how about BW's BI's to guide the story?