My game Cardboard People has been updated (if anyone actually remembers it). I'd like some feedback please. Anything you think is good or could use improvement or whatever.
QuoteThe Cardboard People
Copywrite © 2004 Kirk Mitchell
You are an outcast of the world. You sleep in the garbage with the rats and the rest of the waste. People pass you by on the street without a second glance. You are a vagrant, known to others of your kind as "Cardboard People". You see strange things that everyday people with their houses and nice clothes don't.
You are the homeless guy in every movie that spots the main characters doing something weird. What the movies don't show is how you get drawn into the chaos too. With your fellow Cardboard People, you must band together to survive: The rest of the world is the reason for your difficult position, and your strange neighbors aren't always friendly either.
CharGen
You must draw up your character sheet on a piece of cardboard. It could be from a cardboard box or a cereal box or anything, so long as the character sheet is on cardboard. I don't care how expensive cardboard is. Scrounge for it. That's what the game is about!
Name: Your character's name. Maybe even your own name. Simple really.
Mind / Body: Split 5 points between Mind and Body. Your Mind score relates to anything requiring mental effort. Your Body score relates to anything requiring physical effort.
Presence: Decide on your starting presence. And please spare us the numbers. Write something like "Highly noticeable", "Practically invisible" or "Occasionally glanced at". This is how much you are noticed by the normal people (and the authorities). This is altered by your actions and their noticeability. Here's a hint: normal people don't like you and getting noticed by the authorities is a Bad Thing. The more noticeable your presence is the more often you will be observed and the more authorities will be savvy to your activities.
Sighting: Write down a description of your first sighting of a strange thing. Your game starts immediately after this incident, so the sighting must have the potential for active danger and be something that can be acted on and reacted to. Every time you get into a conflict that is directly related to your sighting, you get an extra roll.
Mechanics
On Narrative Freedom
If you want to do something, you do it. Simple. You want to open the door, then you open the bloody door! You don't have to look to a GM for permission to open the door, because this game doesn't have one. If the door is locked, then you can say you break the window or pick the lock, so long as you explain how you can (where you learned it or whatever). If you want there to be a cardboard box to hide behind in a alley to avoid a police patrol, then there is most likely a cardboard box in the alley to hide behind. You as a player have narrative control. Be imaginative. If there isn't anything to hide behind in the alley, there is most likely a fire escape to run up. You are responsible for what you create though. If something that you made in your narrative freedom shows up again later on, you are in control of that particular item, character etc.
The World
While the previous segment details how you are able to react to events, you are also able to create events. Find some way of working your group into an order, by drawing numbers from a hat, going in clockwise direction from the person with the earliest birthday or whatever. In that order, from first to last, each player must create an event. All of the players react to the event, and then the next player creates an event. An event must create conflict for the characters and the players to respond to, from someone's father dying to a SWAT team raid on the apartment building one of the characters lives on. Again, you are in charge of the items and characters etc. within the event. If somebody wants to interact with something from one of your events, you control the actions of the item or character to be interacted with. If nobody can remember who owns a particular item or character, don't fuss. Assign it to somebody who wants it. Or flip a coin.
Conflicts
Whenever you get into a conflict (an significant event when there are important things at stake to win or lose) determine whether it is a Mind or Body conflict. This will determine whether you use your Mind or Body scores. Before you roll, determine what is at stake to win or lose in this conflict. This may be anything from "Getting on the boat in time or not" to "Living or dying". You will only die if you put your life as a stake.
Once you have determined what is at stake (everyone else, don't be afraid to call out and make suggestions. Everyone should get their ideas into the game) roll a die. It doesn't matter what kind, be it D6, D8, D10 whatever, so long as everyone uses the same kind. If you roll an odd number, you lose the stakes. If you roll an even number, you win the stakes. Here now, is where things get interesting. You have the option of continuing to roll as many times as the points in the conflict type (Mind or Body). Each time you roll you must add another thing that is at stake to win or lose though, and the roll applies to ALL the things that are at stake. If you roll three times, and you lose on the third time, you lose ALL of the stakes, whether you won any of the previous ones. On the same note, if you roll three times and you win on the third time, you win ALL of the stakes, whether you lost any of the previous ones.
Chaos Theory
Once you have finished with the stakes, narrate the actions and how the stakes were won or lost. Try and make it as interesting and graphic as possible. Now that your conflict is resolved, what is termed here as "ripples" begins. Ripples are those events that start out small and bump into other events until eventually you end up affecting everybody. In this game, the ripples system determines how other characters are affected by your actions. All of the other players pick up four dice and roll.
If there is one more even number than odd numbers, a good thing happens to your character.
If there are two more even numbers than odd numbers, a very good thing happens to your character.
If there are three more even numbers than odd numbers, a fantastic thing happens to your character.
If there is one more odd number than even numbers, a bad thing happens to your character.
If there are two more odd numbers than even numbers, a very bad thing happens to your character.
If there are three more odd numbers than even numbers, a terrible thing happens to your character.
If the number of odds and evens is equal, nothing happens to your character.
You then narrate what happens to them according to the above list and how it came about as a result of your actions. No conflict goes without repercussions and, you are all in this together. Don't be afraid to royally screw people over, but remember that what happens to them is situational. You can't have them spontaneously combust (unless you are dealing with a psychic or something otherwise supernatural), but you can have them be blamed for a murder that you committed. On the same note, please give them their due if something good happens to them. Even player characters need a break now and then.
Order of Actions
For clarification, the order of actions the players take throughout the game is as follows:
Player creates event
All players react to event
Conflicts resolved
Ripples commence
All players react to respective ripples
Repeat.
Thanks,
Kirk
Kirk,
It's a nice system, and such an open system that I'm trying to get my head around it. Can I ask a couple of very trivial questions?
Firstly, isn't it technically possible that I get four more odd numbers than even numbers? Secondly, if I can do anything with while narrating, what happens if I kill all the other characters?
Graham
Ooh. I never thought of either of those...
Hmmm. Well, I suppose that there are two options in terms of rules design when it comes to PC killing: I could rule that sure, go ahead. Just make some more, or I could prohibit character killing. Part of me wants to say "Hell yeah! Kill 'em off. I don't care! Their shit-easy to make anyways", but it does seem a bit opposed to the "You only die if you put your life at stake" thing. I'll have a bit of a think about this. Thoughts? Suggestions?
And yes, I suppose it is technically possible to get four straight odd or even numbers. I'll just make it that something nigh-impossible happens to your character either way. Superhuman or incredibly (un)luckey. That's the simplest way of doing things.
Kirk
I probably didn't phrase that very well. But I was wondering if there were any limits on the narrative scope.
On the specific point of character death: given the theme of the game, character death needn't necessarily stop them taking part. A player could narrate their dead character as a vengeful ghost, or a spirit in Heaven looking down, or a poltergeist, or a hallucinatory voice that guides the other players. (If the game was a bit more supernatural, they could be a vampire or a zombie).
And the dice: if you roll four dice, I think you can only get the following possibilities:
- Four odd numbers
- Two more odd numbers than even (=3 odd, 1 even)
- Equal numbers of even and off numbers (=2 odd, 2 even)
- Two more even numbers than odd (=1 odd, 3 even)
- Four even numbers
...but that still suits your purposes fairly well, with a little tweaking.
Hi,
My first reaction was some slight discomfort. Getting a kick out of playing homeless crazies would really not be a big attraction for me. But that's probably not really what you're after. Maybe you discussed it more in an earlier post, but what kinds of things are the PCs involved in? I really liked the reference to movies, and the ubiquitous homeless guy who sees more than anyone else. Does that get tied in more? I think it should. Something conspiratorial. If it's just about homeless people, throwin into random action sequences...well, it'd fall flat for me.
Anyway, as regards player killing of PCs... If you want to stick with the "you have to put your own life on the line to die" bit (and I think you should), how about this: you can narrate that you want a PC to die but as soon as you do, that narration is held up. The player of the to-be-killed PC gets a chance to take up the challenge and accept a conflict, or not. If he says no, the narration can't include the PC actually dying--coming close, a near miss, is okay, but no actual removal-from-play. If, instead, the second player agrees and we have a second conflict, then run that as usual, except that if the second player loses, the original narrator gets to complete the death narration.
Hello,
I really love the free narrativism in this !! Rock on! One suggestion/question....Why not allow the players to create conflict to the behaviors of each other? Like, for instance....
Bob:"I'm shooting him in the head"
Ralph: Slides token across table, signifying a conflict "Your eyesight is uneasy, making it hard to aim, and instead you hit his shoulder"
This would allow for a lot more interaction while still giving a free flowing narration....players can interject if they don't like the idea of what is happening....just a thought.
DJ
Yes, I was aiming for the more conspiratorial thing. Also, go out and read Niel Gaiman's Neverwhere (not only for the reference, but it is just a fantastic book). Its about homeless crazies. Only they are not so crazy. Just very, very cool. Lets use Back To The Future. The homeless guy who mutters "Crazy drunk drivers!" In this game, he would get sucked in through the time vortex thingy left behind by the car (Like the wake of a boat) and end up somewhere weird. What crazy hijinks will he get into then? I'm just pulling shit out of the air, but that's sort of the stuff. Also, perhaps he witnesses a bank robbery which turns out to be something bigger and much more sinister.
Naturally, when narrating, narrating the death of another player character comes under the conflict heading, in which case they have the choice to put their life on the line. I'll have to make that more explicit. The only way outside of a conflict to potentially kill player characters is through Ripples. There would be where I might say "too bad". Or in that case, perhaps the ripple might result in a new conflict instead of being a foregone conclusion. How does that sound?
DJ: Hmm. I'm not sure I really like the idea of influencing other player's characters quite in that way. Its one thing to screw with the world, but I'm not sure I want to make it work that way. That could be in the narration of the winner of the conflict though (depending on how well they succeed, of course).
Kirk
Basically, the idea would be to determine if all players agree with the conflict....Because it's one thing to say " I shoot him" it's another to completely kill someone. Allowing them to conflict with each other and decide as a group if it's a good plan, creates a new interaction
DJ
I tried to be explicit with the social contract issues in the majority of the game text, but I'll add something in about all parties having to agree to getting into a conflict.
Also, instead of simply narrating what happens as a result of a Ripple, I will alter the rules to have the ripple result in a conflict. Hmm. Interesting potential here. All it takes is one conflict to set off a ripple. If each ripple leads to another conflict, then that makes it really easy to set off a crazy chain of events which drags all the characters into all sorts of trouble. All it takes is one trigger action to set the whole game going, and going fast. What do you think?
Finally, I will fix up the dice rolling thing. I made a bit of a mistake there (thanks for pointing that out Graham).
Another example popped into mind: The Day After Tomorrow (the recent Disaster Movie one, which I didn't like much). There is a homeless guy there, and he gets involved in stuff over his head. There's another scenario. Really, whether it is "just homeless people with action scenes thrown in" or something much more complex and conspiratorial with the homeless right in the thick of it is up to the players. But mostly what I think of when I look at this game is the magical world of London Underground and its denizens from Neverwhere. That's how I'd play the game.
Kirk
QuoteAll it takes is one trigger action to set the whole game going, and going fast. What do you think?
That seems exactly like what something called a "ripple" should do. You'll have to playtest it, to adjust how easy it is to get sucked in, and how irresistable it is, but it seems like a good thing.
Returning to the setting/set-up...it seems like the game needs more of a hook. Conspiracy would be one way to go, though not the only way. If you leave it totally up to the group then you're not offering any mechanical support for it. I'd recommend a stronger decision about how play is going to progress -- do the homeless guys eventually gain knowledge and power of some kind, even if only over their lives, or are they (just) endlessly buffetted around by strange happenings? If I'm a player, am I merely trying to ensure my character's survival, or is there something more?
With the free-form nar, you may want to consider some absolutes that are ALWAYS true to avoid stepping on toes and the like, as DJ mentioned with the "I shoot him in the head."
My Imp Game operates with more looney-tunes style world and physics, so I ruled out hit points and character death: a character only has something stick with him or her if they really want it, including death. No player is ever "out", but alternatives can be presented. We've had Imps haunt each other after death, had one come back as a zombie and other interesting types. Graham had the right idea for your game: someone in the afterlife watching out and interacting with the living world. While we're tossing out movie names, Ghost w/ Patrick Swayze. The one other ghost he encounters is a homeless guy who through sheer force of will can interact with the living.
Quote from: Kirk Mitchell on August 25, 2005, 08:18:13 AM
Also, instead of simply narrating what happens as a result of a Ripple, I will alter the rules to have the ripple result in a conflict. Hmm. Interesting potential here. All it takes is one conflict to set off a ripple. If each ripple leads to another conflict, then that makes it really easy to set off a crazy chain of events which drags all the characters into all sorts of trouble. All it takes is one trigger action to set the whole game going, and going fast. What do you think?
That's AWESOME! I really like that idea, because now the game can really go in a direction more unexpected and less Linear than that of simple narration. Can't wait to see that in writing and try it out!
DJ
Quote...Ghost w/ Patrick Swayze. The one other ghost he encounters is a homeless guy who through sheer force of will can interact with the living.
I've never seen that movie, but that's a pretty cool concept. Even if you die you just can't get a break... I think the rules would be exactly the same (only you can't die). You can still interact with people, you can still cause ripples and get mixed up in crazy stuff. Just one little problem...you're a ghost. Its very cool. If everybody dies, then you can keep on playing as a bunch of ghostly bums or introduce some new characters. Cardboard People are incredibly easy and quick to make.
I'll polish up the rules a bit and come back with the alterations (Dice; ripples/conflicts; death; setting hook ... Anything I missed?). Who wants to playtest?
Kirk
QuoteAnything I missed?
Well, it's not like you have to, but you didn't answer my question:
Quote...do the homeless guys eventually gain knowledge and power of some kind, even if only over their lives, or are they (just) endlessly buffetted around by strange happenings? If I'm a player, am I merely trying to ensure my character's survival, or is there something more?
Maybe I'm just not getting it. To me it seems like you've got a good set-up but it doesn't really go anywhere...I mean, I'm intrigued by the whole "bums who see too much" idea, but I want more.
QuoteWell, it's not like you have to, but you didn't answer my question
Sorry about that Jasper (I was in a hurry). So basically what you are driving at is some sort of character progression mechanic? Something that lets the characters grow and gain some focus? Essentially what I was originally aiming at was the "just endlessly buffetted around by strange happenings" concept. I mean, whether they actually manage to succeed in changing anything is up to the players, but I don't think that is what you are getting at. Lets discuss into this further: What are you looking for in a game like this ("I want more.")? How do you envision the characters developing? This is a game that I want to play myself, yes, but it is also a product (a free one, but a product nontheless), so I have an interest in knowing what you see in the game.
Also, I've re-written the rules.
QuoteThe Cardboard People
Copywrite © 2004 Kirk Mitchell
You are an outcast of the world. You sleep in the garbage with the rats and the rest of the waste. People pass you by on the street without a second glance. You are a vagrant, known to others of your kind as "Cardboard People". You see strange things that everyday people with their houses and nice clothes don't.
You are the homeless guy in every movie that spots the main characters doing something weird. What the movies don't show is how you get drawn into the chaos too. With your fellow Cardboard People, you must band together to survive: The rest of the world is the reason for your difficult position, and your strange neighbors aren't always friendly either.
CharGen
You must draw up your character sheet on a piece of cardboard. It could be from a cardboard box or a cereal box or anything, so long as the character sheet is on cardboard. I don't care how expensive cardboard is. Scrounge for it. That's what the game is about!
Name: Your character's name. Maybe even your own name. Simple really.
Mind / Body: Split 5 points between Mind and Body. Your Mind score relates to anything requiring mental effort. Your Body score relates to anything requiring physical effort.
Presence: Decide on your starting presence. And please spare us the numbers. Write something like "Highly noticeable", "Practically invisible" or "Occasionally glanced at". This is how much you are noticed by the normal people (and the authorities). This is altered by your actions and their noticeability. Here's a hint: normal people don't like you and getting noticed by the authorities is a Bad Thing. The more noticeable your presence is the more often you will be observed and the more authorities will be savvy to your activities.
Sighting: Write down a description of your first sighting of a strange thing. Your game starts immediately after this incident, so the sighting must have the potential for active danger and be something that can be acted on and reacted to. Every time you get into a conflict that is directly related to your sighting, you get an extra roll.
Mechanics
On Narrative Freedom
If you want to do something, you do it. Simple. You want to open the door, then you open the bloody door! You don't have to look to a GM for permission to open the door, because this game doesn't have one. If the door is locked, then you can say you break the window or pick the lock, so long as you explain how you can (where you learned it or whatever). If you want there to be a cardboard box to hide behind in a alley to avoid a police patrol, then there is most likely a cardboard box in the alley to hide behind. You as a player have narrative control. Be imaginative. If there isn't anything to hide behind in the alley, there is most likely a fire escape to run up. You are responsible for what you create though. If something that you made in your narrative freedom shows up again later on, you are in control of that particular item, character etc. What you don't have control over is what happens to other characters. If you want to do something to somebody else (or want something to happen to another character), consult the conflict rules.
The World
While the previous segment details how you are able to react to events, you are also able to create events. Find some way of working your group into an order, by drawing numbers from a hat, going in clockwise direction from the person with the earliest birthday or whatever. In that order, from first to last, each player must create an event. All of the players react to the event, and then the next player creates an event. An event must create conflict for the characters and the players to respond to, from someone's father dying to a SWAT team raid on the apartment building one of the characters lives on. Again, you are in charge of the items and characters etc. within the event. If somebody wants to interact with something from one of your events, you control the actions of the item or character to be interacted with. If nobody can remember who owns a particular item or character, don't fuss. Assign it to somebody who wants it. Or flip a coin.
Conflicts
Whenever you get into a conflict (an significant event when there are important things at stake to win or lose) determine whether it is a Mind or Body conflict. This will determine whether you use your Mind or Body scores. Before you roll, determine what is at stake to win or lose in this conflict. This may be anything from "Getting on the boat in time or not" to "Living or dying". You will only die if you put your life as a stake.
Once you have determined what is at stake (everyone else, don't be afraid to call out and make suggestions. Everyone should get their ideas into the game) roll a die. It doesn't matter what kind, be it D6, D8, D10 whatever, so long as everyone uses the same kind. If you roll an odd number, you lose the stakes. If you roll an even number, you win the stakes. Here now, is where things get interesting. You have the option of continuing to roll as many times as the points in the conflict type (Mind or Body). Each time you roll you must add another thing that is at stake to win or lose though, and the roll applies to ALL the things that are at stake. If you roll three times, and you lose on the third time, you lose ALL of the stakes, whether you won any of the previous ones. On the same note, if you roll three times and you win on the third time, you win ALL of the stakes, whether you lost any of the previous ones.
People Die
Yes, unfortunately this is true. However, when a character dies it will never be without a reason, because you decide the stakes you want to risk. Also, even if you die, you won't be getting out of all your troubles quite so easily. You might remain behind as a Ghost to haunt your old friends, rise again as a Vampire, be brought back to life by some crazy scientist as a Frankenstien wannabe or just be some sort of group hallucination that haunts the minds of your former colleagues. The rules are still the same as usual, your character is simply in a different state.
Chaos Theory
Once you have finished with the stakes, narrate the actions and how the stakes were won or lost. Try and make it as interesting and graphic as possible. Now that your conflict is resolved, what is termed here as "ripples" begins. Ripples are those events that start out small and bump into other events until eventually you end up affecting everybody. In this game, the ripples system determines how other characters are affected by your actions. Each ripple that hits a character must be the beginning of a conflict for them (which in turn will start off another ripple). All of the other players pick up four dice and roll.
Four odd numbers – You must begin with high stakes (but not necessarily death. Death is always optional)
Two more odd numbers than even (3 odd, 1 even) – You must begin with risky stakes
Equal numbers of even and odd numbers (2 odd, 2 even) – The conflict begins normally
Two more even numbers than odd (1 odd, 3 even) – Whoever you are in conflict with must begin with risky stakes
Four even numbers – Whoever you are in conflict with must begin with high stakes
The player who rolled the most odd numbers gets to deal with their conflict first. When you roll for the ripples of that player's conflict, the rest of the players must roll again. How they are affected by the previous ripple is altered to the latest roll. The player who rolled the most odd numbers gets to deal with their conflict next (see a pattern here?). Continue to do this until all of the players have dealt with their conflicts. When the last player has resolved their conflict, everybody rolls for ripples and the process begins again. If nobody rolls any odd numbers, you are just too damn lucky. Roll again. If everybody has the same number of odds and evens, roll again.
What do you think of the revisions?
Kirk
Kirk, I like the new rules writeup. I'll comment more later.
QuoteSo basically what you are driving at is some sort of character progression mechanic? Something that lets the characters grow and gain some focus?
Not necessarily progression per se, or even character change. I guess I just want more of a premise, above and beyond "weird things happen." But your vision may be very different from what I'm looking for, so let me ask you this, even though it can be a dangerous question: what creative agenda do you see Cardboard People facilitating best? And in what way?
Because when you talk abotu the set-up, I say "cool," and want to play it Nar, to address themes of, I don't know, personal power and identity, dislocation, person/society, or even some bigger metaphysical things. But if you're thinking something else entirely, our disconnect is understandable.
If, just as a starting place, you're also thinking Nar, then what kinds of questions do you see the game raising? For instance, Sorcerer asks "What do you want, and what will you do to get it?" Dust Devils says "Shoot or give up the gun." You don't need a pithy one-liner like that, just some statement about what the players will be thinking about/doing.
Therein lies my problem. I designed the game in the car on a particularly long drive in an attempt to entice my brother into playing (and thus leave my younger sister alone). I scrawled the rules on the first thing that was handy when we got home...a piece of cardboard. I never designed it with any inbuilt premise, just the capacity to address Premise. I say Nar, but Nar with Premise left just a little too open. I don't think our problem is that we are thinking different things, its just that I'm not thinking at all.
However, when I do think premise in terms of this game, I think exactly the same as you (society, people's place in it and individual power...with some metaphysical aspects thrown in). I'll add some notes in the rules on the premise in the introduction, but are you looking for a mechanical implementation of the Premise?
I'll think on how we could do that and come back with some ideas later.
Kirk
Kirk,
I'm glad we're on the same page then. I am looking for some mechanical weight behind the ideas we've mentioned, since I think that will make a much better gaqme. Systems Matters and all that. (And just so we're clear, when I said "premise" back there, I didn't actually mean the capital-P Premise of Forge jargon. Athough I think you knew what I meant anyway.)
I'm thinking a reward mechanic to enforce the premise.
One of the things to address would be what to reward the players with. As a Nar game, rewards are generally in terms of granting more narrative power, but can also be something entirely superficial and relating only to the setting. In The Cardboard People players pretty much have complete narrative control in the first place, so rewarding them with more is a little pointless. Instead, perhaps to explore the concept of an individual's place in relation to society, the players are able to build up a stockpile of..stuff, that allows them to do something about their position in relation to society. Just some thoughts. To tell the truth, I really don't know. I want to try something different from my end-game mechanics in The Order, but my brain is completely frazzled.
Thoughts (because I certainly don't have any)?
Kirk
I'll repeat Vincent's recent advice to me, and suggest thinking about the specific kinds of play you want to get--in terms of what the players are literally saying--then note anything that seems unlikely/hard, and focus on promoting them with rewards. And don't worry about the type of reward too much until after you know what you're rewarding. Just passing out "cool points" can work. A transcript of imagined, ideal play makes this easy (it works for me).
The kind of thing that I'd like to see is bums who stop being just bums: instead "bum" becomes their Cover, from Sorcerer, and their players begin to make them proactive agents on some kind of search for truth -- maybe personal, metaphysical, or religious -- power, or happiness. And the "weird stuff" that happened to them at the beginning just acts as a kicker to get them started on their path. But eventually they won'y be buffeted about so much: they'll learn to anticipate/avoid/deal with/control the weirdness that seems to follow them.
Does any of that strike a chord with you?
QuoteI'll repeat Vincent's recent advice to me, and suggest thinking about the specific kinds of play you want to get--in terms of what the players are literally saying--then note anything that seems unlikely/hard, and focus on promoting them with rewards. And don't worry about the type of reward too much until after you know what you're rewarding. Just passing out "cool points" can work. A transcript of imagined, ideal play makes this easy (it works for me).
Thanks. I'll do that and come back with the results.
QuoteThe kind of thing that I'd like to see is bums who stop being just bums: instead "bum" becomes their Cover, from Sorcerer, and their players begin to make them proactive agents on some kind of search for truth -- maybe personal, metaphysical, or religious -- power, or happiness. And the "weird stuff" that happened to them at the beginning just acts as a kicker to get them started on their path. But eventually they won'y be buffeted about so much: they'll learn to anticipate/avoid/deal with/control the weirdness that seems to follow them.
Sounds good. The image I had in my head was that they were used to the wierdness, so they could attempt to deal with it as they go about their "everyday" activities. I suppose the fact that they are bums, and that nobody pays any attention to bums, gives them more flexibility. What their "everyday" activities is is a bit ambiguous, so I think a goal for them to reach towards is what we are both sort of stabbing at. The search for truth etc. Something nice and philosophical.
Heh, what about a system that rewards philosophical play. [only partially joking]Perhaps every time they come up with some witty or profound aphorism they get a point[/only partially joking]. I always want to try and tackle the Big Issues in games.
Anyways. Tell me what you think about these throwaway ideas (to discard, or not to discard), and I'll come back sometime sooon with an imagined ideal play.
Thanks,
Kirk
<Large flashy thingy signifying ideas!>
How about the game being structured around Questions and Answers.
Together as a group you get together and decide on a Question. This could be "What is the meaning of life", or something less ambitious, such as "Can one person make a difference". Then, you use the Question as a guide for your game. You get points (that do something) as you address the Question and try to reach the Answer. When you reach the Answer, then you create a new Question and seek that.
The "something" that the points to: I have a couple of ideas about this. Perhaps points allow you to prolong rolling and thus potentially gain more stakes (or potentially lose a lot more as well). Perhaps Ripples can only be triggered if you spend a point (although I do like the way that the Ripples already define the structure of the game, so I don' think I'll go for this option). Perhaps these points just let you do something freaky-cool that you wouldn't already be able to do. Magic and shit like that.
What say you?
Kirk
Hm...Is any old Answer to the Question good enough to count? How would you decide when an Answer has really been delivered? Are you envisaging the different players wrestling over the Question in an actual philosophical way -- using the game as a helpful prop -- or are they "arguing" and each trying to make their own Answer come out as the Answer? Both those options seem to take something away from the cardbboard people themselves, as characters. And just speaking personally, I think I would risk "stalling out" pretty frequently as a player if I was hit by such big questions up front, and felt the need to address them in a very purposeful way.
I think you might want to be less direct about it, and instead focus on a couple general "Questions" that play will tend to center around, and maybe have specific rules for to help with that. The bums' own active involvement and desires also seems important to me.
How about this idea of the bums gaining power over the weirdness? Have a mechanic that tracks that somehow. It builds up as a bum encounters strange happenings, survives, and maybe deals with them somehow. Then, he can use that experience to turn the weirdness back, and use it -- or knowledge gained from it -- for whatever purpose he wants. You mentioned "everyday activities," but it seems to me that a bum who's been through a couple of bizarro attacks will want to escape that the first chance he gets -- he won't just sit around waiting for more. So once a player's bum gets up to some level of weirdness control, he really ceases being a bum. Instead he's a crazy, disillusioned, mistreated guy with power and knowledge. And who knows what he's going to do with it. Seek revenge? Make himself a king? Transform the society? Prepare the world for the apocalypse he now knows is coming?
It's the same recipe as Sorcerer, basically. With power and knowledge -- a terrible, unearthly power and knowledge, far beyond that of ordinary people -- what will you do? And as a corollary, how will it you change in the process?
Quote from: Kirk Mitchell on September 04, 2005, 10:06:17 PM
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How about the game being structured around Questions and Answers.
Together as a group you get together and decide on a Question. This could be "What is the meaning of life", or something less ambitious, such as "Can one person make a difference". Then, you use the Question as a guide for your game. You get points (that do something) as you address the Question and try to reach the Answer. When you reach the Answer, then you create a new Question and seek that.
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I like the idea of the Question, but I can see problems with it. If the question is "What is the meaning of life?", I'm not sure what I'd narrate. It's such a general idea. On the other hand, with "Can one person make a difference?", it would be quite difficult to narrate anything, given that there's several characters in the game.
On the other hand, I can imagine some questions that would spur me on to narrate a story: "Is money more important than love?" suggests several stories to me instantly; so does "Can wealth ever make a person happy?"; so does "Is death the end?". So I like the general idea of a Question, but I'd like...I don't know...perhaps some constraints on it?
Graham
Ok, I admit I was being a bit flippant in my ideas for Questions, but your concerns are quite valid. I think I'll just move them to the back-burner for the moment and keep the questions as premise for the game to revolve around.
In keeping with the spirit of the game, calling the mechanic the "Wierdness" meter would be quite suitable. Perhaps a dual level game. You successfully deal with the Sighting and have gained power and status through that. Now you are no longer a bum, now you are going to kick some ass. How about we provide the option of either creating a new Sighting or starting at a new level where you are no longer a bum.
Wait, how about every time you successfully deal with a Sighting (by "deal with", I mean remove or complete or whatever, the thing behind the Sighting), you increase your Presence. You get more and more noticable, and you get more and more powerful. How's that? Presence may have to be replaced with a numeric value though...
Kirk
A Presence increase seems reasonable -- though you might want to allow the ex-bums to remain unnoticable as well, as a remnant of their past lives. But I think you need an additional mechanic to have them gain actual power, for ass-kicking or whatever. One way would be to have a numeric indicator, like "Clarity" or somesuch, but you could alternately have something a little more like the Fallout tables in Dogs: after each Sighting is dealt with, a roll is made and some new ability is gained or other trait altered. This could include increases in Presence, but also cover the more amazing power a bum would need to tame the weirdness.
Hmmm. There are no special abilities at the moment. Nothing that makes a bum individual. Perhaps these special abilities could be gained, as you say, through some sort of "Fallout table" and alter how the bums interact with the world. Some abilities might grant them special powers, some might give the player automatic narrative control over certain situations, etc.
I think it could work.
Kirk
Alright. I'm just adding the Abilities and such. As I do that, I don't think that there's much more we can discuss. The game is now in playtesting phase. Anybody who wants it can have it. PM or e-mail me and let me know.
I can't thank you enough for your help,
Kirk