Ok folks, this thread is for customers only. Members of the booth shouldn't post here. No responding to gripes!
As customers to the booth, what didn't you like? Why?
What did you like? Why?
What would you like to see different next year? Why?
Please be explicit in your answers and constructive. Pithy or destructive answers are the best way to waste your time and ours.
Keep it civil,
-Luke
What I Liked* The fact that if I noticed a game I knew nothing about, someone was there to explain it. Frequently, they'd offer to demo it as well.
* The energy. Even if I'd never heard of the Forge, the booth had such a feeling of excitement and activity that I'd have wanted to check it out and see what was going on.
What I Disliked* The display for the games was in a weird place and not easily accesible. I know that I didn't look at the games on the back too much, since I felt like I was looming over a demo or standing in the "sales area" behind the register.
* I was charged twice for a game. Fortunately, it was Bacchanal, so the $4 hit wasn't as bad as if it had been, say, the hardcover TSoY, but still...
* The hard sell. "Buy this game" really rubs me the wrong way. It also puts me in the awkward position of saying (usually to the designer) that I didn't like the game in the first place, because if I like a game, I
will buy it, either on the spot, or online. When a polite explanation or excuse of "I've already spent too much" or "I'll think about it" is met with further pressure to buy...well...it gets pretty tough to be polite. [/list]
What I Would Like to See Next Year* The booth needs more room. There were several times I would have liked to at least watch a demo in progress, but was shooed off for blocking traffic. Fewer tables or a larger booth could be the answer. I'm sure it's not a practical idea, but a couch or some comfy chairs for a "theory and discussion area" would be awesome.
What I liked.
The people. Everyone was friendly and enthusiastic. They were also pretty knowledgeable about almost everything at the booth. I don't think I ever asked a question about a game that I didn't have an almost immediate answer for. The energy around the booth also attracted people. Lots of people. It was a happening place. The conversation was stimulating. It was like a live version of the Forge website and getting to actually see the people while they talked was great.
What I disliked.
I am also NOT a fan of the hard sell. I have two reasons for this. First, I'm a compulsive spender so I purposefully did not bring any extra money to buy games. GenCon was for me to try everything out that I wanted and then to take the information back home where I could plan out a strategy for buying those games I liked over the next few months. People attempting to coax me into being irresponsible and put money that I really need for my mortgage and utility bills (even if they didn't consciously know they were doing it) really rubs me the wrong way. Second, I'm stubborn and a master of passive resistance. I don't like being pushed and even had I brought money to buy games I would tend to not buy games that were pushed at me, even if I had planned on purchasing it originally.
What I'd change.
I know that more space is very expensive and I sympathize with that. But there has to be some way to make it easier to get a demo. Out of a whole plethora of games I wanted to try out I only got to demo 2 of my list. I did get 2 demos that weren't on my list. I couldn't get a Sorcerer, Dogs in the Vineyard or Shadow of Yesterday demos that I really, really wanted. Mostly because I'll probably buy 2 out of 3 of those games in the next 60 days. It would have been great to see the systems in play to help me make my decisions. Holding demo times down is one way to get more demos in. It really is possible to do a 15 minute demo. Tony proved it. However the most obvious solution is more space. Of course that runs into the economics of more expense.
What I Liked
The energy and enthusiasm. The willingness to put other stuff aside in order to demonstrate games. The booth was one of the most vibrant and active around, from my perspective, and that draws a lot of attention. I had no trouble getting any demos, no matter how many people were currently on the floor.
What I Didn't Like
The presentation of the games. I think a flat-rack is a more logical way to get a lot of folks looking at stuff than a triple-spin rack will be - I had the same problem of not wanting to crowd in to look over a rules system.
What I'd Change
Flat rack for demonstration. Honestly, that's about it.
What I Liked
Meeting the authors of the game and talking to them about it. I really love their enthusiasm and openness.
What I Didn't Like
The demos and the demo space. It was way too crowded and confused. It's the price of being popular, I know, but I didn't want to fight the crowds just to get a chance to sit down and shout at the other players.
What I'd Change
I really wish that there were a few more scheduled events where the author (or a suitable deputy) runs his or her game in a 2-hour slot. Is it really that hard to get away from the booth, especially at noon or 10:00am, to run a game for players who pre-register ahead of time?
Right now, way too many people. It's scary over there. But a bigger space isn't what you need.
My suggestion:
Have the existing Forge space (whatever that size is called...) and a separate booth (the standard 10x10) next door/across the aisle for extra stock, cash register, promo materials and sales people. The big area is for tables and demos, the wee area is for sales. You could even schedule special signings or what-have-you without sacrificing demo space,
The Forge as a booth is less a store and more of a demo space anyway, why not make it official? Think of it as an auto showroom floor with a separate office for buyers.
Also: less crazed carnival barker "salespeople."
What I Liked
- Getting to meet all of you folks in person and get good, high-energy pitches about your games.
- Some great demos of Mountain Witch and Capes.
What I Didn't Like
- The credit card fiasco. I was the first credit card purchaser and, while hanging out with Luke for 20 minutes while being processed was cool and all, I'd have rather spent that time demoing his game.
- I agree with the crowded rack sentiment. Getting to the back side looked quite difficult when the demos were in full swing.
- I bought about $200 worth of Forge Games Thursday morning, hoping to have the time to demo many of them throughout the weekend. Every time I came by, though, getting into a demo proved difficult. The few times I waited around until I did get in, I got a vibe like the demos weren't really for me since I had already bought the game (which I stated if asked what I knew about the game). Was this all in my head?
What I'd Change
- Organize the demos better, perhaps creating a schedule for the most popular games and allowing folks to sign up.
- Once I buy your game, now what? How about having a separate group of folks do longer demos or play pick-up games in an open gaming area that the booth staff can direct you to. That way, the demo tables are kept rotating and focusing on quick demos aimed at making the sale.
All in all, though, you guys made my first GenCon a rockin' experience.
what didn't you like? Why?
The 3-sided bookshelf was really hard to navigate. I was all set to buy my books in one swoop but missed some and had to come back. Now, I came back a few times a day, just to see and help and kvell but with many con-goers, you are going to just get one shot.
What did you like? Why?
The whole vibe. The sight and sound of people demoing and getting into it.
I loved sitting in and helping out on demo's and seeing people's eyes light up when they began to get Polaris or Burning Wheel.
What would you like to see different next year?
I'd like to sign up with the booth and see Dictionary of Mu on the shelf right next to all of your beautiful freakin' books.
I'd like to see more books that have the keen design sense of The Mountain Witch, Burning Wheel, Conspiracy of Shadows, Primetime Adventures, DitV and Sorcerer (I'm sure I missed some but those stand out in my mind).
I'd like to see more booth-monkeys with a Thor-like demo flexibility. Maybe some time at the Embassy could be spent so that every Booth Monkey can demo 3 things. I realize that by the end of the day you Forge sista's and brotha's must be spent but a little bit of flexibility all around would be so great.
I think we need to analyze demoing with an Actual Play level of scrutiny. Ben's Polaris, Luke's The Sword, Tony's Bank Robbery that I went through at Dexcon, and Malcom's A|State are all demo's that stood out to me as particularly strong.
What I liked- Activity - the booth was buzzing, lots happening, very alive. There was nothing more disheartening than the "look at my new game" booths with a couple of folks all dressed up and hiding behind a table. The Forge was exactly the opposite: not hiding behind tables is good.
- Friendly - the booth-staffers were friendly... OK, I knew some already, but still, it had a good vibe. Having people come up to you and invite you to demo a game is good. Remember, your customers may not have many dice in social skills.
- Demos - you were actually running demos of games (and game mechanics), and that didn't include miniatures, TCGs, CCGs, crap. I felt a bit naughty demo-ing The Sword, having played The Heist, but if a man can't have his pleasures at GenCon... anyway, the mere fact that you had demos running all the time was alluring.
- Payment - the folks staffing the register were delightful. Kudos for staying so over the course of a long con.
- Jared - you may owe him a debt of blood. (If I have the right guy... the demon horns rocked. I want them).
- Cool - talking to designers about their games at a con has a certain cachet. Exploit it.
What I disliked / What I would change
- Demo and Game Information - what is available to demo? when? can I sign up? is anyone running a game I could try to one-shot with generics? Being able to play a demo is the best thing you've got going for you, so make it easy to find out when your customers can come and try out your great games. Have a handout of the one-shots being run with each system, each day: give customers a chance to use generics on your games. I ended up doing a demo I wanted to do (BW), for a system I already owned, and was pre-registerted to play. I bought a couple more, but I would gladly have demo-hopped and demo-shopped for several hours, given the chance. If the con booth is too expensive for more demo space, hijack open tables in the Hyatt lobby for 15-minute demos. Do not use your gaming time for this, though! We like you fresh and inspired, not worn out.
- The display - hard to see all the stuff, prices appeared to wander, and the non-rotating prism rack was a pretty inefficient use of the space. Moving the merchandise to an adjacent (or opposite) 10x10 would be a good call... room for another demo table.
- Payment - the friendly staff were cool, but I really would have preferred to charge to plastic... and if it had been running smoothly, I would have very likely have added Primetime Adventures, Capes and Conspiracy of Shadows to Sorcerer, Mountain Witch, Dogs and BW - Jihad. Either make an investment in a hardcore parabolic directional wifi antenna to blast through the con. center's walls... or just cough up for the gouging facilities.
- The funk - by Sunday, someone on the booth had their stink on. I have no idea who it was... but it was a booth staffer. Game designers of all people should know to shower, for the love of dice!
- Space - the next-size-up prices are outrageous, but you've got enough great stuff that you need more space, to give customers an opportunity either to participate, or watch. Watching a demo through can be almost as enticing as playing in it, especially if it's a strict 15 minute one. Again, can you annex open gaming tables in the hotels? Rotate through hotels? Advertise that schedule, if you can.
- Hard Sell - last, because it's kind of inevitable... but still, try not to make punters feel awkward. It's a long con: allow people a couple of days to come round. I know your game is the best game evar, but that still doesn't mean I should give a shit about it, let alone give enough of a shit to cough up for it.
What I want for Next Year- A Giant Foam Rubber Forge and a god-like blacksmith for eye-candy. I'm thinking Thor.
Hey guys,
What I Didn't Like
Density
Every time I walked by, all I saw was a solid mass of people. Great for you guys, maybe, but not for customers. I can look through the crowd and say, "There's Ron. There's Luke. There's Thor. There's Droz (note: shiv him later). There's Snyder, Wilson, Senkowski, Kitkowski, Czege, etc." but that's because I'm not the casual visitor.
Obscured Stock
The book display was lost in the crowd. Sure, I could see the bookshelf but the actual books on it were hard to see. For example, there was a whole bunch of books I didn't even see until the third day and on my fourth visit to the booth.
What I Did Like
Well...the games for one. ;) Also, having the sales table on the end, as with last year, was very nice.
That's all I have for now. I hope the show was great for you guys.
Quote from: Andrew Morris on August 23, 2005, 02:07:33 PM
* The display for the games was in a weird place and not easily accesible. I know that I didn't look at the games on the back too much, since I felt like I was looming over a demo or standing in the "sales area" behind the register.
* The hard sell. "Buy this game" really rubs me the wrong way. It also puts me in the awkward position of saying (usually to the designer) that I didn't like the game in the first place, because if I like a game, I
will buy it, either on the spot, or online. When a polite explanation or excuse of "I've already spent too much" or "I'll think about it" is met with further pressure to buy...well...it gets pretty tough to be polite. [/list]
Yes and Yes.
What I LikedThe Merchandise. A lot of great games in one place
The Demos. Though I only demoed one game, that I wound up not liking, I think the sheer amount of demoing going on was very impressive, and a testament to the dedication of the people running the booth.
What I DislikedThe hard sell. I really, really, really, hate the hard sell, especially when it comes to games. I like to browse, and aggressive hard selling makes that impossible, because it makes me uncomfortable, and just makes me want to leave the booth as quickly as possible. If I have two games in my hand that I am definitely going to buy, and am just sort of browsing the rack to see if anything catches my eye, that DOES NOT mean I need someone popping up next to me asking "So what kind of games do you like?" in an attempt to sell me on something else. I was buying Capes, and luke's jihad supplement when this happened to me, TWICE. Within five minutes... so I just paid for my stuff and left to avoid it happening again, and honestly, if there had been anywhere else to but those two products at the con, I would have gone there and bought them instead. It's all well and good to believe in your product and sell it, but I think you should respect the fact that not everyone is going to like your game as much as you do, nor do they necessarily want to give you a chance to prove it to them. If your game interested me in the first place, i would have signed up for a game, asked for a demo, or even just asked a few questions. If i didn't do an of the above, that means I am just not into it, and it isnt a personal judgement on you or your creation.
I feel kind of bad saying all this, because I am really friendly with Luke, Thor and Dro (you guys are all aces in my book), but it really made me uncomfortable, and I definitely didn't spend as much time at the booth as i would have otherwise.
What I Would Like to See Next YearI agree with everyone who said the display was hard to navigate. It was. i know you guys didnt have much room, but in the future, a storefront section seperate from the demo are would be a good idea if you could work it out.
What I liked:
The fact that no matter what, I could get a demo of a game at pretty much a moment's notice. I also liked that there were plenty of tables for said demos and that most people could demo more than one game. I also liked that I could stand off to the side and watch and listen while others demoed games.
What I disliked:
On Thursday and Friday, very few of the games on the display rack had prices listed. I had to continually ask someone "How much is this?" I felt bad having to interrupt someone to ask. (It was nice when they did post the prices via postie notes on Saturday and Sunday.)
What I would like to see changed:
I know it may not be possible just because of space requirements but if you could move the items for sale away from those that are demo-ing games, that would be great. It was hard to navigate around all the people sitting down to look at what games were on the back of the display case.
What I Liked
The sheer number of games
Being able to buy them -- if Paypal and Credit Cards had not been an option, I could not have bought all those games.
Meeting people I'd known only online
Seeing people I've met before but only see once or twice a year
Being able to get into demos
Being able to push other people at the booth, the games, and the demos
Ben's sensitivity to the mood of the prospective customer I pulled over for a Polaris demo. As soon as she said he was losing her with the demo itself, he called off the demo and just gave her a quick rundown of the remaining rules, and did not try to push the game on her.
Discovering that I could get seriously into character as a popular high school bitch queen in Sweet Dreams
Snarling at Ron in a demo of The Shadows of Yesterday, and realizing that this was a game explicit created to allow players to be both the intrepid heroes and the divided adversaries that are usually mere exploitable NPCs. This took about 2 minutes of my time, as I came into the middle of a demo, and I had hardly any contact with the system, but this is what made me buy 2nd edition TSOY, despite having 1st, and despite having dropped a lot of money at the booth.
What I Didn't Like
Not really being able to hang around the booth for socializing -- not something to change, I think, as folks at the booth are there to sell games, and that's legit
Not feeling that it's kosher to get into a demo of anything other than something I've just bought and want to get the feel or or something I'm considering buying. Again, I'm not sure this should change at the booth itself, and I have no intrinsic objection to the idea that booth demos are for the purpose of selling games, but more demoing/gaming available outside the booth would be nice. (See below.)
The Hard Sell. I did not usually come up against that, but when I did, it was annoying. As someone said earlier, if the attempt to sell me the game persists after I say that I'll think about it, I quickly become less interested in buying. Also, some things aren't my cup of tea, even if I did enjoy the demo, and I don't like being put on the spot because of that.
What I'd Change
More short (figure 2 hours or less) demos and scheduled games -- Is it feasible to use open gaming space? To have sign up sheets for after hours / unofficial games, like I saw with Deliria in the Laughing Pan Booth?
Having more of an idea when and where I can socialize with folks (even if I'm also trying to juggle several other plans)
Having more of an idea of what I can do to help out. This involves playing more of the games in the intervening year and/or contacting folks if I think I just need a little coaching to get up to speed for demoing something.
Personal Check being a payment option
Credit Cards working more smoothly as an option
Query
What is considered a good length for a demo by the people working the booth? I assumed that 10-15 minutes was about right, but I gather this is on the long side?
-Lisa
What I liked
The energy and enthusiasm. Seeing you excited about your game, or even someone else's, makes me excited about it. All the Forge folks are great about this, but you gotta admit, Luke and Tony got it in spades.
Demoing games I've been waiting a year for, obviously.
Meeting and talking with the designers of said games.
The pre-demo approach. I know some folks don't like someone coming up to them and asking "what games do you like?", but I dig it. I hate going to booths and seeing the folks working there just sitting in a chair, afriad to make eye contact for fear that they'll drive you away. Some folks are scared off if they can't idly page through your book without starting some kind of conversation with you about it. However, I think books are what we have to learn the game from when you don't have the creator right freaking in front of you.
The effeciency of the demos. Time limits help everyone.
What I didn't like
The hard and/or awkward sell. I know you've heard this a million times, so I'll clarify a bit. After I've demo-ed your game is when a lot of demo-ers expect to close the deal, which isn't a bad thing. However, don't tell me to buy it. Ask me if I like it. I thought Tony LB did this best by asking the innocuous but loaded question "can I put this in your hands?" after demo-ing Capes. I don't know why, but that just seemed to jive with me better than any other sales techniques I heard.
The crowds, not in that I was intimidated, but I hated blocking their view of demos and games while I was chatting with booth-monkeys/game designers. It was like if I wasn't in a demo or in line to buy a game there was no where I couldn't be in the way.
The triangle book rack, but mainly for the poor folks what got stuck on the back of it. It also kind of misleads you into thinking you can page through a book, which I think more than a couple folks learned was probably not the best idea for traffick reasons.
What I'd like to see next year
Organized demos outside of the exhibit hall. Maybe there were a few and I totally missed 'em, and if that's the case some advertising at the Forge would really help. I can tell you, if there were organized Forge games out there (and if I knew about them, in case there were), I'da been out there instead of taking up space at the booth.
Either a better bookrack or none at all. Some people have said a bigger booth, and that'd work, or just move the browsing types over to a different booth, like key20 or blue devil. Personally, I don't have to see the books right there to know what you guys are doing. I think other folks'll pick up on it quick.
As customers to the booth, what didn't you like? Why?
- I didn't like the rack that the books were on. When I was just walking by it took a bit too much effort for me to see them. There placement didn't draw my attention, at all.
- In a couple of the demos I was really rushed. Having someone push me through a demo as quickly as possible left me with little time to "learn and yearn" for their game.
What did you like? Why?
- Demos. Because I get to try it before I buy it, simple as that.
- Playing demos with the creators of a game. It gives me a chance to see the game through the eyes of someone with real passion for it.
What would you like to see different next year? Why?
- The books displayed in a way that draws my eyes to them. Because its another way to get people to become interested in your book.
- Luke with a bottle of the tea drink they made for Andy Serkis while playing Golum. Cause the time I played a demo with him he was loosing his voice.
Quote from: abzu on August 23, 2005, 01:00:22 PM
Ok folks, this thread is for customers only. Members of the booth shouldn't post here. No responding to gripes!
As customers to the booth, what didn't you like? Why?
This is going to sound like a copout, but there weren't enough tables and there wasn't enough space. With the volume of interest you guys generated, you needed something the size of the White Wolf booth. I realize economic considerations come into play, however. Anyway, it would've been nice to be able to demo more things but sometimes there just wasn't room.
Along the same lines, the triangular stand made it hard sometimes to get a look at the books that were on the back third, especially because a lot of that space was being used by games.
QuoteWhat did you like? Why?
Demos, demos, demos. If I wanted to try a game (barring the above issues), I could, and usually with that game's designer.
The opportunity to pimp shit I liked to other people who were on the fence, and talk to them about their games. The Forge booth winds up becoming something like an old fashioned "gamers wanted" bulletin board where you could get to know other people who were interested in looking past the behemoths.
QuoteWhat would you like to see different next year? Why?
More space, better racks, assuming this is fiscally realistic.
Really, I'm racking my brain to complain about something and this is pretty much all I can think of.
On the plus side, if there hadn't been a Forge booth, Gen Con would have totally sucked for me.
I want to do a little exploding of the "hard sell" issue.
To me, asking, "What kind of games do you like?" is fine, and trying to get them interested in games they might like is good too. It might be better to say, "Are you looking for anything in particular?" and then launch into the "what kind" question if people hem and haw.
Further if I am asked, "So would you like to buy it?" I'm okay with that, too. Where I start to get uncomfortable is with the, "Well why don't you want to buy it?" point. Note that this can be handled well (one designer asked me why and did or said something to make me feel like he really wanted to know and he wasn't being sulky about it--like what could he do to make it better?) but the chance for its being handled poorly are great enough that it's something I'd be cautious about.
Yeah, on the hard sell issue, I want to be clear: I have no problem with someone trying to sell their game to me (that's why they are there, after all), but there is a point where it becomes social pressure, and that's the point at which it becomes uncomfortable and puts me off.
For a great example of someone who can really sell a game without making a potential customer feel uncomfortable, look to Jared Sorensen. When I was at his booth, he answered any questions I had about the games, and pointed out the salient features of ones I wasn't looking at, so that I knew what was there. When I was talking about buying the perfect-bound copy if InSpectres even though I already had the coil-bound version, he didn't pressure me at all. He said something along the lines of, "Hey, cool. If you want it, buy it. It's money in my pocket. If not...eh, no big deal." Boom...I bought InSpectres and OctaNe without any reservation. I'll be looking up the other games he pointed out as well, and I'll probably end up buying them online. If he'd started pushing with something like, "Why don't you want to buy it? You like the game, right? So buy it." I probably would have walked off without getting anything.
I know his "sales pitch" sounds like it kinda sucks, but it's effective for two reasons. First, he gave info and showed enthusiasm for the games without unpleasant pressure. Second, he made it clear that while he'd like my businsess, he didn't need it. It's just human nature that when someone pushes something on us, our guard goes up and we get defensive. When someone conveys the sense that we'd be missing out on something cool, but doesn't feel the need to convince us of it, we get interested in it. We don't want to be left out of the coolness, so we're more receptive to it. I knew as it was happening that that was what was going on, but it didn't change my decision.
Echoing:
Good
Demos. Lisa and I demo'd so many games we were dizzy from it.
Energy. Everyone was constantly hopping.
Bad
Hard Sell. No need to embarrass either of us with it. A majority of my spending money stops at the Forge anyway.
Silly product rack. Product facing away from passing customers? Silly rabbits.
Change
I really really like the idea of having demos on one side of the aisle and sales on the other. Seems ultra-groovy to me.
I expect that having enough space on the sales floor for a lounge is likely so cost prohibitive as to be silly, but I wonder what it would cost to set up a Forge Lounge in some janitor's closet somewhere on Con grounds. You know, somewhere in the same building (as opposed to like a hotel room a block or two away). I'm imagining a set up with a couple comfy chairs & couches and maybe as many as two tables for playing longer term games. I'm also imagining selling 'memberships' to interested loungers. I'd pay good money to be admitted to the champagne room of indie gaming.
-Eric
What I Liked
All the great new games. I was tempted to buy every single one. Over the course of a few visits, I talked to several people and got good recommendations. It was great having the opportunity to talk with the designers about their games. I didn't get any hard sells.
What I Didn't Like
I agree with many of the comments and suggestions others have made: crowding, the bookshelf, credit card payment, sales area separate from demos,
etc. Whether because of location or presentation, some games definitely stood out more than others for me, e.g., A State got my attention immediately. I gravitated towards names I was familiar with and whatever drew my attention visually. If you had little comment cards with recommendations like some bookstores have, they'd probably get my attention.
What I'd Like to See Next Year
More opportunities to play Forge games in scheduled sessions or some place off the show floor. I guess a lot was happening at the Embassy Suites in the evenings, and I missed it.
All in all, great job! The Forge booth was the most happening place at the Con.
My recommendations, as a customer who came through and bought stuff:
Better display racks. You folks try to move a lot of product, so you need a lot more room to show it off, and make it easily accessible to people coming through. You have a year to shop around - there are affordable display materials out there, it is time to find them. I would recommend a power-wall of product if you can't get a better rack for the middle of the floor - a display rack like the triangle rack you used, but held up higher and run along the back wall. The real trick would be including 'posters' of the book covers along there too, so people walking past will see the covers and get their interest. You could also place the power wall on the periphery of the booth, with the demo tables behind it. It would make the demo tables feel a little clausterphobic, but would make the displays more visible. Honestly, without increasing booth space, I can't think of a 'perfect' way to promote the products visibly, so I would go the easy way and use the same setup as this year, but using much better display material.
More information about becoming involved: Pimp the forge proper a bit more, tell people how to get involved and how to get their own products out there. A booth would certainly have served me better than lugging copies of my game in my backpack. :)
---
Short demos in the booth, so there is always a space to step into to try it out, and long demos arranged elsewhere... Talk to GenCon about arranging demo space outside the booth, in the various gaming rooms - do NOT rely on open gaming space for this, however, as that space is often full, or VERY far from the booth.
---
The lounge idea is a good one, but to get a private room like that on the grounds means becoming a partner with GenCon. That's a lot of money, generally.
What I didn't like
I would have liked to pay with a credit card without needing to leave the hall to hunt for a wireless signal, but instead I just paid cash, so it wasn't that big a deal.
The triangle display of games was awkward to get to the inside of, given how tightly packed everything was, but eventually I wormed my way in.
What I liked
The Booth staff I spoke to were all very friendly and good about answering questions and asking what kind of games I liked and telling me about other games I might want to try. The spiel for Polaris was particularly compelling, so I bought it.
The selection. I bought 11 games, only one of which I already owned an earlier edition of. Nothing sold out before I could get a copy.
I liked the emphasis on demos, although I only played one demo, for Nine Worlds by its author Matt Snyder.
The energy level, and excitement of people enthusiastic about gaming.
The sales table being accessible from the aisle, so no need to wade in and out of demospace to buy.
What I'd like to see different next year
I'd love to see more demo room, although I recognize there's significant cost for that so maybe it's not feasible. As it was, I didn't ask for demos for many things I would have liked to try, because I had already played them (Dogs in the Vineyard) or knew I was going to buy them anyway (The Mountain Witch), and I didn't want to take up space and time that could be better used on an undecided customer.
And may I recommend Robert Cialdini's Influence: Science and Practice to all the sellers?
Quote from: Jon Edwards on August 24, 2005, 01:13:02 AM
What I'd Like to See Next Year
More opportunities to play Forge games in scheduled sessions or some place off the show floor. I guess a lot was happening at the Embassy Suites in the evenings, and I missed it.
I don't know if suggestions at this stage are noxious, but if everyone who stopped by the booth was told, "We also run off-the-books games in the Embassy suites after the dealer floor closes," that might help this issue.
Quote from: RobNJ on August 24, 2005, 08:46:57 AM
Quote from: Jon Edwards on August 24, 2005, 01:13:02 AM
What I'd Like to See Next Year
More opportunities to play Forge games in scheduled sessions or some place off the show floor. I guess a lot was happening at the Embassy Suites in the evenings, and I missed it.
I don't know if suggestions at this stage are noxious, but if everyone who stopped by the booth was told, "We also run off-the-books games in the Embassy suites after the dealer floor closes," that might help this issue.
I wonder if the Embassy Suites wasn't supposed to be a chill meeting of the Forge regulars and I effed up by mentioning it on a thread at all.
A suggestion: Talk to the folks at Looney Labs. They have done booth + room for games for years at Origins. At GenCon this year, they had the game room, and they split their stuff for sale among five booths of dealers willing to cooperate with them.
One thing that really worked for me at DexCon in July was the fact that the room behind the Forge sales area was essentially the Forge gaming room. I could get into lots of full games, which was what I needed to see how the games ran.
At GenCon, Tony ran a high energy 5 minute Capes demo. This was not enough to let me figure out whether I would enjoy the game or not, but it was enough to get me wanting to play a full session of the game so that I could figure it out.
Quote from: RobNJ on August 24, 2005, 08:46:57 AM
I don't know if suggestions at this stage are noxious, but if everyone who stopped by the booth was told, "We also run off-the-books games in the Embassy suites after the dealer floor closes," that might help this issue.
Rob, you've already posted your comments. Stick to the format. Now shoo.
-L
What I Disliked
Most of what I disliked was due to "hard sells", rudeness, and poor customer service.
I apologize if any of the following is too much of a rant.
I had 6 books in my hand (over $120 worth) and I was scolded for talking to friends before I made my purchase and were told we were forming a wall and to break it up. I was told to move along which really pissed me off. I can understand if I was there for a long time yapping with no intent on making a purchase but that was not the case.
The hard sell was off putting. I spent a lot of time in the exhibit hall and did not experience this anywhere else, which kind of made it more shocking by contrast when I would visit the forge booth. It's ridiculous when I have over $120 worth of books in my hands and people keep trying to sell me more product even after I say I am not interested. Once you say no, that should be the end of it. And I had to say no a lot because I kept being badgered. And several times I looked at a game, I was asked "are you going to buy it?"... and I was like "I'm just looking" which then was followed up with more badgering of "why don't you buy it?".
Some people there seemed knowledgeable but others were much less so. One person went on and on about how amazing Conspiracy of Shadows is and how much fun it is to play and then after a series of questions I find out the guy never played the game and didn't even know what the basic task/conflict resolution mechanic was.
This didn't happen to me personally but many of my friends who played demo's had a lot of pressure put on them afterwards to buy the game right then and now. Many of my friends who did not have enough money on them said they would come back but were then continuingly badgered to buy the game that instant. Many of them also said that there seemed to be a very high level of competition between fellow forge vendors. One person would finish a game and before they had a chance to ask questions a new person would run up to them and say "if you liked that game, you should demo and buy this one" before they were even done with the first game.
After the above experiences, I very much regret making my purchases at the forge booth. I love the books. But I heard that the forge did very well which could indicate that some of these tactics (for the short term at least) do work, and I wish I didn't help reinforce and reward that sort of behavior. I should have bought the same books at the IPR booth instead or online. If these tactics persist next year, I won't make that mistake again.
If the above sounds too harsh, I don't do so lightly. I love indy games and have multiple copies of the same games in my apartment for friends to borrow (3 copies of Burning Wheel, 2 copes of Dogs, 3 of my life with master and so on...). I've also helped run booths selling Forge games at local cons (Dexcon, I-Con, Ubercon) and I am friends with several of the game creators. I was just extremely turned off by my experience at the booth at Gencon.
What I Liked
- Great selection of games.
- Opportunity to speak to the game creators directly.
- Opportunity to demo the games with knowledgeable people.
What would you like to see different next year?
- Not repeating the incidents that I disliked, described above.
I forgot one last thing. The second time I visited the Forge I brought my girlfriend with me and one of the games we purchased was Breaking the Ice (great game). After we made the purchase, one of the forge people leaped at us and very loudly proclaimed "IF YOU LIKE BREAKING THE ICE, YOU SHOULD BUY THE GAME THAT IS THE EXACT OPPOSITE" and presented some game with drawings of saiters on it. He then proclaimed "IT'S A GAME ABOUT HAVING SEX" and then he started snickering, smiling and nodding his head a lot like a 10 year old. We looked at him disgusted and promptly left.
What didn't I like?
- Agree with other posters that the display rack was difficult to deal with
- Hard Sell. I didn't encounter too much of it but when I did it was uncomfortable. I was really freaking poor this GenCon (showing up at all was a bit of a financial strain) and found myself explaining that to people more often than I would have liked. This was not a huge issue but I thought I'd chime in with other voices.
What did I like?
- I liked meeting all these people, many of whom were just names to me before, and re-meeting the ones I met in 2003.
- Demos were hella fun.
- Several games I would never have known I would totally dig, I found out I totally dug by playing them. I've bought one of these (because Ron hard sold it to me and I buckled and bought it) and will be buying the other two when I can. (Sweet Dreams, Kayfabe, and Breaking the Ice)
- Graciousness, kindness, openness, and friendliness were the order of the day on everyone's part.
What would I like to see changed?
- I want to see something besides "hard sell -- buy this game!" and "I'm too meek to ask you to buy this game." I'd like to see people ask me to buy their game, while making it clear that they are not pressuring me to buy this game. This touches on a topic that is of particular interest to me lately -- the free request. There is immense power in a request which totally and honestly respects the free will of the requestee and carries no implicit reward for a correct response or punishment for an incorrect response. Another poster described an interaction with Jared which seemed to embody this philosophy very well. "I'd love you to buy it, but I wouldn't want you to buy it if you didn't really want to." Something like that. We don't do much "free requesting" in this culture; we usually try to convince people to do what we want, or obligate them to do what we want, or else if we don't want to do either of those we're too shy to even ask them to do what we want, for fear they will take it as a hard sell. I want people to *ask* me to buy their game, and to let me know they will appreciate my "yes" and respect my "no." Sorry, got off on a rant there.
- agreement with other posters that more room would be good, and an option for longer/scheduled demos in addition to the pickups would be good.
Quote from: RobNJ on August 24, 2005, 08:46:57 AM
but if everyone who stopped by the booth was told, "We also run off-the-books games in the Embassy suites after the dealer floor closes," that might help this issue.
Yes, that would have been a great idea. Did you notice those loud parties taking up most of the 15th floor of the Suites every night of the Con except Friday (Friday was a quiet evening after the ENnies with Peter Adkison)? That was based out of my suite, but I would have been QUITE happy to take a break from night after night of loud and drunken parties to be able to play some of your fine games.
VERY happy.
Definitely something to actually advertise next year. I'm kicking myself now for not knowing.
Oh, one other thing that I forgot to put in my original post, but really got to me.
Up front pricing. Seriously, put the price of your game on the cover, or somewhere equally as visible. If a game doesn't have the price printed on it, make sure the customer knows it before they go to the register, whether they ask or not.
I only say this because at one point someone pretty much sold me on their game. I knew it wasn't entirely my thing, but it looked small and unassuming, so I figured what the hell, I'll give it a try. I felt a little misled when it rang up at the register for roughly twice what I was expecting to pay. My bad for not asking price, maybe, but I still felt misled.
I know a lot of people balk at the prices versus production values of certain games, but that's their issue. Tell them why it's worth that much, but don't let them get to the register only to put your game back because it's a lot more than they thought it was gonna be.
What didn't I like?
- The display rack was a hindrance and was almost standing on top of one of the demo tables.
- The hard selling. Not so much a problem for me to say "no thanks", or whatever. However a friend of mine who was with me at one point, who is just beginning to wet his little toes in the wild ocean of indie games, was really turned off by an aggressive designer. I think I talked him down with "You know, they write these games and they're passionate about them", but he still didn't buy the game... Malcom was a good example of how to sell. I demoed a/state based purely on his enthusiasm, not planning at all to buy it, but he didn't push me and now look what I've been reading compulsively ever since I got home.
- Not knowing that after-hours games were going on! Aaaarrrrrrgggghhh! And I even managed to FIND the Embassy Suites! Seriously, though, if this was something that was open to interested people in general, you need to let them know. Of course in retrospect I could've simply asked someone if games were running elsewhere, but still... I read the IndieGameExplosion thread today and almost started weeping...
What did I like?
- The absolute friendliness of everyone there. It feels weird to go up to some designer whose stuff you admire and, y'know, whose ideas you've been stealing and say "Hey, I'm Aaron Kesher, it's nice to meet you", sorta hoping they'll recognize your name. However, every time I did it I got "Hey, nice to meet you, thanks for buying my game, etc". And I'm damn sure not all of you recognized my name!
- The fact that you never ran out of games. I bought stuff in three passes over three days, like $400 worth of stuff, and there was always more there when I came back.
- The sheer beauty of many of these games. I was really blown away. Whatever the size of the game, from a/state down to Dogs and Polaris, it was clear that the designers selling through the Forge booth REALLY CARED about every aspect of their product. Another friend of mine picked up Dogs back at the hotel just because of how it looked. Then, as often happens, I imagine, he couldn't put it down and ended up buying his own copy. This is a guy who is a hardcore D&D3.5 DM, fer krissakes, and he was hooked by palpable love.
What would I like to see changed?
- Well, I guess I covered the open game thing already...
- More room. The suggestion made earlier about a demo space and a display/retail space is an excellent one.
- I think someone mentioned this already, too, but an info sheet about the Forge in every bag would've been a great idea, with a comprehensive list of designers' websites, etc.
This isn't totally on-topic for booth feedback, but the Design Workshop was absolutely the highlight of the Con for me, and I'd love to see more things like that in the future, too.
Thanks for being there and for working so hard, all of you!
Aaron
Honestly, most of what I have to say has already been said somewhere on here, but I figure that this is as good a place as anywhere for my first post here on the Forge...
The sheer enthusiasm as the booth was inspiring. The fact that everyone there was passionate about the games beings sold (even those that aren't their own) is great. It inspired me to finally get an account on the forums after years of lurking.
I had two problems, both of which have been stated before.
Firstly, there was the whole credit card issue.
I honestly would have probably walked away from that booth with twice as many games as I did if it weren't for how much of an ordeal the first purchase I made was. The fact that buying with plastic involved sending my credit card number unencrypted over a public Wifi network also made me a bit leery, and that I went through with it is a testament to how much I wanted copies of the games I was buying.
The oft-mentioned hard sell was the other issue.
Listen, I like you guys. I like your products. I loved hearing the pitch and playing the demos. But GenCon is a big show with a lot of vendors, and I'm a college student that isn't exactly rolling in funds. There wasn't a game that was pitched to me at the show that I wouldn't have liked a copy of, but nevertheless I couldn't afford them all. Adding to that the entire credit card fiasco limiting my purchasing power to the limited cash I had on hand, there was only so much I could spend.
When I said "I'd really like a copy of your game, but I can't afford it right now," There are a dozen games I saw at the show that I plan on purchasing sometime in the future. It's going to need to wait a few paychecks though.
So thanks for the games, and I look forward to participating in the forums. If next year you get the credit card thing figured out and you push a little softer while peddling your wares, I'll have no complaints.
As one who complained last year, a few notes:
On my (rare and rapid, unfortunately) trips through the dealer hall, I did make a point of trying to go to the Forge booth.
I managed to have two contradictory impressions: that it had enough space, and that it was full and/or too busy for me to make time to go in [the old "I'll come back later" lie]. I managed to peek at the sales rack and have a quick chat with Mike Holmes. Next yar, I will make more time [and invest in that bridge-buying opportunity, and... :) ]
Even after the con closed, it managed to have a vibe of being "where the cool people hang out" about it. Possibly simply because I knew what it was :) -- but it always had a buzz of conversation.
First off, Hi everyone! (I'm sure most of you at the Forge booth would recognize me if you saw me, even though I rarely talk much to anyone because of my crippling shyness)
I make it a point to stop by the booth every year and buy about as much as I can afford without coming home and getting yelled at, although I did get yelled at this year... too much good stuff to buy! :)
What I didn't like
This has been echoed many times... the display rack is awesome, but I think it has outlived its days if you continue to grow like you have been. Some product is too low to the ground and the stuff hidden back can't catch the eye or browsing convention goers.
Some of the sales tactics were in the neighborhood of "used car salesman". I understand that everyone really wants to get there game out to the public eye, but I don't think that gamers need the hard sell. The hard sell works, but it just seems like kind of a turn off.
What I did like
The vibe coming from the Forge booth reminds me of what I really love about gaming. The Forge booth generates an aura of awesome that makes GenCon about a hundred times better.
Getting to actually talk with game designers? Kick ass! I wouldn't have come as far as I have with my own games if it weren't for The Forge.
What I would like to see changed
If you could get more space that would be cool, but I understand that the next bump up in booth size is a bit steep so I understand you not getting more space.
More "official" demo games and maybe a list of all the scheduled events so people interested in getting deeper into a game's mechanics and vibe can pre-reg for a game or show up with generics to try and get in on a game.
Quote from: Trevor Gunter on August 25, 2005, 09:22:16 PM
Honestly, most of what I have to say has already been said somewhere on here, but I figure that this is as good a place as anywhere for my first post here on the Forge...
The same goes for me - as a long-time observer, it's about time I actually posted something; and a call for general customer feedback seems like the ideal situation to do it.
What I liked The range, scope and quality of the games on the stand was
incredible. I sincerely doubt there was a gamer at the con who couldn't have found a game they would thoroughly enjoy there, and - having spent quite a lot of time checking out the rest of the trade hall - I can honestly say that no other booth had anywhere near the breadth of theme, system and innovative design that was on display at the Forge.
Having the game designers on hand to demo their games - no-one (no matter how experienced a GM or close a friend of the creator) will ever know or show off a game to its best advantage like its author.
Jasper (?) The Guy With The Black Contacts. Booth bait for girls - the Forge, we salute you! But seriously, though, the number of people (of both sexes) he drew to the stand through sheer charisma was unbelievable. I'm not sure who he was or what his game was, but every time I saw him he was enthusiastically explaining a different game to an entranced audience.
What I didn't likeI know it's been done to death, but I have to say the hard selling at the Forge booth was the worst part of my entire con. I'd always thought of the Forge as an intellectual melting-pot to help independent games designers work through game issues, meet like-minded new people, share experiences, and boldly take RPG design where no-one had taken it before. The majority of the designers on the booth upheld that belief. However, a few people there seemed determined to destroy it by promoting a secret new game called "Battery Farming - The LARP", where you play a chicken forced into a horribly cramped cage with a number of other equally confused chickens, and are not allowed out until you have laid some golden eggs; at which point, you are seized by another farmer and the game begins again.
It's entirely possible that, as a newbie, I've missed some threads explaining how production-line values are an integral part of the indie games scene; and I do appreciate that the Forge was competing against the biggest names in the industry at GenCon, but as a random punter who tried to approach the cash register with books in hand and had other books
physically shoved on top of what I had already decided was all I could afford and was ordered to buy them, I was not only unimpressed, but genuinely angry. I approach used-car lots with an expectation that someone will try to hard-sell me something I don't want; it's certainly not my expectation when I approach somewhere with the reputation for leading-edge, intelligently-designed games that the Forge has.
What would I like to see changed?I found the Embassy Suites sessions a fantastic opportunity to explore in greater depth (and without the accompanying hard-sell) games I was particularly interested in, but they don't seem to have been promoted at all - I think it'd encourage more people to make repeat visits to the booth if these games were scheduled more formally and advertised more widely.
Space for demos also seemed to be a big issue, and I know it's been repeatedly mentioned before, but a bigger booth, if you could afford it, is definitely the way to go.
Apologies for quoting the same tired issues, but I figured that the more people who agreed it just felt wrong, the more likely it is to be changed for next time.
Cheers,
Cat Tobin.
Quote from: Coffee_Lifeform
Apologies for quoting the same tired issues, but I figured that the more people who agreed it just felt wrong, the more likely it is to be changed for next time.
Not at all, dude. We totally appreciate it. After all the feedback here on this very issue from customers from all walks of life, you can be assured that we'll do everything we can to avoid this from happening next year.
Thanks again!
-Andy