Heya,
Never done a rant before, and not sure this really counts as one. Don't really care either. I just have a point I want to make and then a request for help. I really appreciate all the great advice and input that I and other consistently get from the Forge. Without a doubt, it had made me a better writer.
The Point:
Over in Indie Design it has become popular to ask three base questions any time someone posts about a new game they are designing:
1. What is the game about?
2. What do the characters do?
3. What do the players do?
I can't take credit for inventing them, nor can I take credit for popularizing them. I will take credit, however, for asking them numerous, numerous times. These questions go right to the heart of a game. They cut through all the BS (like classes, races, die cubes, etc.) and talk about how the game looks and plays. I cannot stress enough the importance of these questions and how they can both guide discussion and design. Anyone who posts in Indie Design would be well served to answer these questions in their initial post about their game.
It's not easy, though. I think it is hard sometimes for newer designers especially to understand the difference between #2 and #3. I know from personal experience, it took me a while. I think that's part of the education that the Forge needs to provide- both through feedback in threads in Indie Design and in Theory discussions while this forum is still up.
The Request:
Here's the part where I need your help. Those three questions above are not the end-all and be-all of game design. They are just a start. They certainly do not tell me everything I need to know. What I need from you guys are some good follow up questions. What are the things that I should ask about next to help further drive the discussion? What else can I (we) ask about a game that probes as deeply as the three above but also builds on the three above?
These questions have to be exacting in order to prompt a designer to truly reflect on his design. They must provoke thought and help guide design. I'm looking for something that will help me help others and in the end, help all of us as we will all benefit from the design and input of others.
Peace,
-Troy
That's totally not a rant. Damn fine post, though.
I don't have a lot of questions, but the two that keep circling my head are these:
(4) What specific choices do you want players to be thinking about as they interact with the mechanics? (i.e. what do players contribute toward the rules?)
(5) What specific outcomes and patterns do you want the mechanics to create? (i.e. what do rules contribute back toward the players?)
6.) What makes your game different from or better than X, Y and Z and why should I play it instead of those choices?
I know it is somewhat confrontational but I think it is an important question. If there is already a game that does exactly what you are attempting and does it better than your game, then perhaps you need to rethink the project.
Hi everybody!
I don't know if it will be usefull, but I will try to offer the view of a newcomer.
I must say that for me it took some time until I realized the real meaning and power of the 3 famous questions. But once I got the point, they were pretty clear and neat. Of course, that doesn't mean they become easy to asnwer.
Gaerik:
Quote6.) What makes your game different from or better than X, Y and Z and why should I play it instead of those choices?
I agree. It's highly important to know about other games, especially if they are hitting the same niche you are aimed to. You should really have a clear idea about what is new or exciting in your project. But don't you think that, specifically for new people, could be too frustrating at the very beginning to compare their unelaborated ideas with other full developed games? I would say that this might be taken with some care.
TonyLB:
Quote(4) What specific choices do you want players to be thinking about as they interact with the mechanics? (i.e. what do players contribute toward the rules?)
(5) What specific outcomes and patterns do you want the mechanics to create? (i.e. what do rules contribute back toward the players?)
I think these ones are implicit in #2 and #3, but they are nice in the sense that they look to me like a second cycle of questions to further elaborate the outcome of the original three questions.
Although I understood them pretty well, I think they are phrased in a complicate way for some new people.
I hope this helps,
Arturo
"Which aspect of your game are you most excited about?"
(Dunno if this is a useful question, but people sometimes feel they have to include all sorts of stuff - attributes, a combat system, a history of the world etc. - even if their game may be better off without that. The question might help them decide what's really cool - for them, personally - about their game.)
Related to Tony's (6) but maybe broader: "What kind of play (behavior) do you want to encourage/reward?"
Halzebier, I think that's pretty legit. Though I would probably amend that to "What makes your game exciting?" since I care about everything that's exciting, not just the most exciting bit -- and hopefully most of the game is exciting. And this question is also related to the also popular "Why should I care about this game?" which I used to see a lot, though not much lately -- probably because sounds confrontational and thus requires clarification.
Quote from: Troy_Costisick on September 13, 2005, 11:12:08 AM
1. What is the game about?
2. What do the characters do?
3. What do the players do?
The Pool (http://www.randomordercreations.com/thepool.htm) is an excellent game, and yet I don't think you can really answer (1) and (2) for it. Is that a failing of my understanding, of the Pool or of the questions?
I ask because the game I'm working on is "generic" like the Pool. These questions stare back at me with defiance. I wonder if understanding why they don't fit would help define other helpful questions.
Quote from: Jasper on September 13, 2005, 12:52:23 PM"What kind of play (behavior) do you want to encourage/reward?"
I think a better phrasing would be "How does your game encourage the players to address what the game is about?"
Heya
QuoteI ask because the game I'm working on is "generic" like the Pool. These questions stare back at me with defiance. I wonder if understanding why they don't fit would help define other helpful questions.
WhiteRat, I do not want this thread to break down into "what are the answers to these three questions conserning Game X." I assure you that there are excellent answers to all these questions for the Pool. As for your game, I really do advise that you consider how the three questions I outlined above apply to your game as well as the follow up questions that have been suggested by others. If you cannot come up with answers, I suggest making a post in Indie Design or Actual Play (if you've play tested it yet) and asking for advice and insight. I know that always helps me.
I like the questions so far guys, but I'm sure there are a few more out there. Keep 'em comin' :)
Peace,
-Troy
Quote from: Troy_Costisick on September 13, 2005, 11:12:08 AM
1. What is the game about?
2. What do the characters do?
3. What do the players do?
As a corollary to question 3:
3b: What does the GM do?
Darren
Quote from: Halzebier on September 13, 2005, 12:39:05 PM
"Which aspect of your game are you most excited about?"
I always phrase this one "why is your game awesome?" Incredibly useful question. It's my first question to myself about a game design.
yrs--
--Ben
To tangent very slightly, Ben, do you have an answer to that question when you start designing, or only after you've gotten hip-deep in it?
To give the opinion of someone who is tackling number 3 right now, and working on my first game.
I have been lurking about a bit trying to learn the language here for months. Watching Indie Game design, I saw that the three questions are asked over and over again. It took me awhile to think about them and approach them before I posted about my game. Increasing this standard questioning will increase the points of contact between having something I need help with and getting help. It may have the chance of driving off people who are trying to design indie games. The Forge is difficult enough to pick up on with learning the Lexicon, asking a whole bunch of questions will add to the learning curve.
If the goal is to provoke thought, then making a post of whatever number of questions the community comes up with and making it a sticky post might work better than asking them in each thread created in the Indie Game Design forum. It is a bit intimidating already. That or allowing the person to answer the three, get help and then pose additional questions could work too.
What I'm trying to say is that the present three questions are good in that they say, " We need you to have some minimum things thought out before we can try to help you, simply so we can understand." Increasing it much beyond that is going to make it feel like, "you need to do all this before we will try to help you."
Y'all should check out this thread from about a year and a half ago: Streamlining Design (http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?t=10186)
Mike Holmes, in particular, suggested 10 or so REALLY good questions that game designers should ask themselves.
0. What are you, the game designer, totally excited and pumped about?
The most useful question for me, when designing my first game, would have been "What problems do
you see coming up during play?".
Other than that, I like the questions of the form:
Quote from: Callan S. on September 14, 2005, 04:08:19 AM
0. What are you, the game designer, totally excited and pumped about?
and I agree with the numbering - that that question is more important than "What is your game about?".
Slight tangent: I was recently developing a LARP to which the only answer to that question would have been "Well, it's a development of my previous game and people seemed to like that one". In other words, I wasn't excited about the game at all.
Heya,
Quote from: timfire on September 13, 2005, 08:20:45 PM
Y'all should check out this thread from about a year and a half ago: Streamlining Design (http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?t=10186)
Mike Holmes, in particular, suggested 10 or so REALLY good questions that game designers should ask themselves.
-Thanks! That is the very kind of thing I'm looking for. My search-fu was weak before I started this thread and it didn't come up. Very much appreciate that link.
Peace,
-Troy
Quote from: WhiteRat on September 13, 2005, 01:04:42 PM
Quote from: Troy_Costisick on September 13, 2005, 11:12:08 AM
1. What is the game about?
2. What do the characters do?...
The Pool (http://www.randomordercreations.com/thepool.htm) is an excellent game, and yet I don't think you can really answer (1) and (2) for it. Is that a failing of my understanding, of the Pool or of the questions?
I ask because the game I'm working on is "generic" like the Pool. These questions stare back at me with defiance. I wonder if understanding why they don't fit would help define other helpful questions.
I can't speak for
The Pool, but I can speak for
Multiverser.
The big revelation in my understanding of the game I had created came when we were forced to change the name for trademark reasons from
Multiverse to
Multiverser. Up to that point I had been thinking, "this is a game in which you can
go anywhere and
do anything." At that point, I realized that this was not really what the game was about. Rather, I began thinking, "this is a game in which
you can go anywhere and do anything." The game is very much about what happens to the characters, ordinary people thrown into a reality in which everything imaginable is real.
If your game is not about something, you probably haven't thought it through yet. What is it about the game that makes it different? Why would you prefer to play this than any of the other generic systems out there--GURPS, Fudge, Fuzion, and the list goes on. What are you trying to do that they don't do? If it's only a matter of providing a game engine that is less finicky than GURPS, more powerful than Fudge, why are you doing it? Where do you expect this engine to take you that those won't?
I think the next question on the list should be, how do the choices you are making facilitate those objectives? That, though, is the repeated question that is asked specifically in connection with each choice. How does character creation facilitate this, how does the resolution system facilitate this, and so forth. This produces extremely focused game design. I'm not saying that's always the best, but it's usually better than completely unfocused design, and most people wind up less focused than they could have been anyway.
--M. J. Young
1) While playing your game, when do you expect players to be having the most fun?
2) What do you hope they'd be thinking at that moment in their heads?
3) What do you hope they'd be saying to each other at that moment? (Apart from character dialogue)
Tony
Heya,
QuoteWhere do you expect this engine to take you that those won't?
That is the best way I have heard this question put yet! Usually someone will ask "What does your game do that others don't" or "What makes your game different?" I hate asking it like that because you end up with a bunch of mechanics on how their magic system is different in their post instead of how their game is
really different. But this, MJ, this asks so much more. Might need some tweaking, but this is how such a question should be phrased. It's about where you go during play not about the system tweaks the desiginer is putting in. It's about how the game pushes you as a player and provides totally different experiences. I like that.
Peace,
-Troy
PS: Tony, your questions were excellent as well. I will be adding them to my list. I appreciate your input.