I think this is one of these "Please diagnose my problem" threads. I'm a jaded player who's been out of rpgs for a while, and I'm trying to work out:
a) If there's anything in rpgs worth coming back to.
and
b) What kind of play I can actually enjoy.
In summary: I was interested in (one might say "obsessed with") rolegames from about the age of nine until my last year of college. At that point, I just kind of lost interest, mostly because the games just weren't doing anything for me any more...and, I think, most of them never had done. In the space of five years, I ran a single session and played in none.
(I should add that for most of that period I almost always GM'd, and didn't start playing as a non-GM until much later. I don't think I *ever* really enjoyed the non-GM role. The GM role I did enjoy, at times, but I eventually pissed off all my friends (to the extent that they wouldn't play at all) by starting campaigns and losing interest after a few sessions. My longest ever run was, I think, three months....maybe less. I reckon that in five years of my teens I did this over thirty times.)
Recently however, my interest has been piqued, and I've come back to rpgs to see if there's anything I can salvage. Finding the Forge was a godsend; reading Ron's description of bitter, unhappy people obsessively playing games they didn't enjoy, I recognised my younger self.
So I found a gaming club nearby and signed up for an eight-week Shadowrun game that had just started, and I also joined a D&D 3E game (outside the club). The latter I'm still playing and enjoying, so I won't talk about it here.
The Shadowrun game was based on a commercial module, called 'Dreamchipper' I think, and it was played over eight sessions of about three hours each. There were five other players, most of which came to every session. I didn't know any of them before the game started; I suppose I still don't, because there was hardly any non-game-related chat around the table.
In particular, this meant that there was almost *no* metagame chat, let alone discussion about the kind of game we were playing or the style of play the players and GM liked.
Partly this was because we ran through all the time available; the GM didn't seem to keep track of time at all...at one point a major fight was nearly split across sessions by us getting kicked out of the building. These sessions were running from eight to nearly twelve on a thursday night, and quite frankly I don't have the stamina for that any more if I've got work the next day.
I was a bit stuck for a character at the start, so I settled on a Street Samurai based on the character 'Ghost Dog' from the movie of the same name. Throughout the run, I had real trouble "getting into character" - I just couldn't work out how he'd talk or what he'd do. Towards the end, I just started playing him as a "big, well-meaning dumb guy" which worked for laughs but wasn't what I'd intended at all.
The first session was okay, and a bit of a novelty, but the rest of them I found deathly dull.
About the only exceptions were the fights, maybe four significant ones in the whole run. As soon as a fight started, I "came online" and was very invested in what was going on. I guess I'd have been eyes bright, leaning forward. The game system (at least as we played it) didn't seem to offer significant tactical choices, but I loved the clash of my abilities with those of the enemy. Could I solo the psychotic samurai who though he was Jack the Ripper? Yes, I could (with some help), but I think I'd have been just as happy if I couldn't. It was the resolution (one way or the other) that mattered.
(Actually, another thing I enjoyed chatting was with the GM afterwards and realising that I'd created the character that (mechanically) was the pyscho's worst nightmare, i.e. just as strong and skilled but using a longer weapon that gave me an advantage on the die rolls. Not that I could claim credit for this in any sense, but just that it put the character in a mechanical context (and also identified a role for him as a Shadowrunner)).
The rest of the time I just couldn't care less. The story was about recovering three stolen chips in return for lots of money; in the process, we saved Seattle from three very nasty individuals who were using the chips. But I don't care about imaginary Seattles. I dare say Shadowrun wouldn't work if you nuked Seattle anyway, so the result was a moot point (and, of course, after the eight weeks that version of the world ended anyway).
I don't think, really, that I'm interested in published worlds at all. I used to collect rolegame sourcebooks, but it's the creativity that makes rolegames interesting to me. Playing in a 'canned' world is, well, like having a canned conversation or dreaming canned dreams.
(Nominally, the D&D game is set in Ravenloft, but the actual area we're in is the GM's own creation and isolated by a magical effect from the rest of the realm. I think this is great.)
The interest level of the other players varied. I'm not that great at paying attention, but a lot of the them time when I did look up the other players just looked bored, often because one of them was tying up the GM with some extensive investigation action (which, of course, couldn't really fail if the story was to go forward). I think this improved a little over the weeks, but not for me.
The player that seemed to enjoy the game most didn't seem to do anything much either....but he spent a lot of time talking about things like his character's expensive car, and his (characteristically Elven) concern about clothes and furnishings (and not getting blood all over them).
Anyway, I found this game really uninspiring, and I remember feeling much the same about most other games (including some boffer LARP) during my college days. I.e. you come in as a little unimportant character, and plot happens to you (or, quite often, around you while you watch). If you're lucky, you get a fight (that you can't lose because that would end the game). You *never* feel that you're actually making a decision, or driving the game in any sense. Hence I never used to enjoy being a player, and always wanted to GM.
So, what's the diagnosis? Is this just me, does this sound like CA clash, or what? I'm quite concerned to work this out, because I may have some opportunity to GM soon (some of it with non-gamers) and would rather not make a hash of it.
(Reading the 'posting to actual play' thread, and the example linked from there, I imagine that I've not really hit the details here that this post needs. But it's already huge, so I'll stop writing and stand by to answer questions.)
Hiya Rob. Welcome to the Forge.
I'd like to throw a single concept at you. You decide if I hit the mark or not. Meaningful Choices.
I played quite a bit of Shadowrun. GM'd quite a bit to be accurate. And I know from experience that the only time the players have enough control over the game to make informed decisions is during a combat scene. So I'm not surprised that you got interested during the combats and rarely any other time. I mean, it was probably the only time you weren't being led around by your nose. I ran quite a few of those Shadowrun premade scenarios, including Dreamchipper, and that was the MO; Players follow clue-path from fight to fight, eventually collecting cash reward in the end.
If anything that you'd said or did made any difference during the investigation scenes they might have been interesting to you and the rest of the players. But the scenario required very specific things to occurr and that meant that you had to do very specific things in return. So, your choices were snipped. Thus, the game was boring.
But hey, I'm really just guessing based on my own experience.
-Eric
Hi Eric,
QuoteI'd like to throw a single concept at you. You decide if I hit the mark or not. Meaningful Choices.
Yeah, I can go with that. And I'm pretty sure we didn't get any except, as you note, in combat. If the GM wanted the scenario to work, he had to keep us on the straight and narrow.
(I said that 'there didn't seem to be many tactical options' but at least I had the choice to hang back or charge in, etc. In some ways, the D&D game I play in is similar, in that we're mostly on rails from dungeon to dungeon, but I've got many more combat options and there's much more combat. Not to mention traps, marching order, scouting etc.)
Now, I did worry before my last post if I'd just assumed this (from my memory of my own bad GMing), but then I realised that none of the other players tried, at any point, to step off the railtracks [1]. Either they were 'reading' the GM the same way, or had been equally conditioned by previous experience.
Now I just have to work out how to avoid this in my own games. Or, rather, how to provide meaningful choices to my players.
[1] On a related note, there was a younger player (maybe 16?) who tried once or twice to narrate the results of his own actions when the dice seemed pretty certain....but the GM stomped on that pretty quick.
--
rob
Hi Rob, welcome to the Forge.
With the combat and your choices, would you say the GM would have fudged any character death away (for story reasons). But regardless of that, by watching how the dice went you would have found out and known how the fight would have ended up sans any fudging?
And as you say, even though the system tactical options are low, you could withdraw or charge in. Is trying to figure out when to do either of those, a meangingful choice for you? If so, how is it meaningful? Is it because you've got a stake in this character? And just as much as his life in danger draws him into the combat, so to does your stake in him draw you into the combat?
Also, I really think we should hear about the D&D game as well (D&D 3.0/3.5?). Your getting fun out of that, right? I think it's easier to figure out what your looking for in a game, from a game that suceeds for you.
Callan - Based on the next game I played with him (Pendragon), the GM would have had no qualms about killing characters if the dice said so. By luck it never happened (although I got close at one point).
Just seeing the characters clash *was* fun. I suppose it's a bit of the "What if Morpheus fought Agent Smith" kind of thing, i.e. you explore the physical aspects of the characters by watching them fight each other. I've always liked that.
If I'd suspected fudging though, it would have been spoiled, because the result wouldn't have been 'accurate' (with respect to the in-game reality). I.e. nothing would have actually been revealed.
With regard to the meaningfulness of tactical choices, I suppose that I was somewhat invested in my character's survival, and also in the opportunity to demonstrate that I could make those choices well (this is 'step on up', right?). This is more prevalent in the D&D game, where I want to demonstrate that I'm a skilled player and (in particular) can make a spellcaster work effectively as part of a fighting team.
And I think that rushing in (which I did at least twice) was a bit of a rebellious act on my part; I had just enough control there to stir things up and put myself and the party at risk. Sigh...sounds rather silly when you put it like that. (Although for all I know the other players enjoyed it...I was too involved in imagining and talking to the GM to notice).
I'll post about the D&D game soon (new thread is best, right?) although it may be tomorrow because it's getting late here and I'm tired.
Might put up a few of my fun GMing experiences, too. I've got more good experiences to draw from and they're a bit stronger in my mind.
Hi, Rob. Welcome to the Forge and welcome back to roleplaying!
You're probably experiencing the crappiness of the Shadowrun system. Sorry to break it to you.
What kind of stories do you like to tell and participate in? It seems most likely you need a better match. You also might want to check out FindPlay (http://findplay.anvilwerks.com/) and see what other people in your area are into.
I've always really liked the Shadowrun system. It's true that it's basically designed to just throw a wad of dice at each other, but a good group could make it fun. I mean, Ron's Humanity system is fairly similar to the Humanity system in Shadowrun, with the sole exception that Humanity was almost never meaningful in Shadowrun, because you either played it conservative or you simply died before it ever became an issue.
Now, if you were to take the same Shadowrun resolution rules and flavor, and give a nudge towards personal conflict generators, you'd end up with a damn fine game. Hell, introduce some aspect that can threaten the player's Humanity so they end up gambling with it to achieve their goals.
I think the main issue with this group was that the GM got hypnotized into believing that the given adventure was canonical. I mean, #@%, it's just words on paper, but this guy refused to deviate from the course it set out. If he had allowed your group to start from the given setting and explore your own path from there, it would have been just as fun as any other system.
</rant>
" I mean, Ron's Humanity system is fairly similar to the Humanity system in Shadowrun, with the sole exception that Humanity was almost never meaningful in Shadowrun, because you either played it conservative or you simply died before it ever became an issue."
Are you fucking serious? Or are you joking and I'm being thick?
Haha, I guess I deserve that. I really shouldn't have said "the sole exception". I should have said "one exception being". Not the same thing at all. Sorry.
The similarity that I am referring to is that reducing your Humanity to 0 deprotagonizes the character. In Sorceror, this is a real risk, because it seems to me that one of the GM's jobs is to push the players into making difficult choices that endanger their Humanity. In Shadowrun, Humanity is reduced to a rather mundane currency.
I spoke imprecisely; please, no flame <dons asbestos Underoos> :D
The difference is that Sorcerer is about that, while in Shadowrun it's tacked on, so it's both mechanically irrelevant and philosophically empty.
Now, a Shadowrun-like game using Sorcerer rules, that would be a different matter. I was discussing using Sorcerer for a Ghost In The Shell-inspired game with Vincent a couple of months back, and it definitely seemed plausible. And a better game.
I want to know what Rob wants before we discuss this further.
Quote from: Rob Alexander on October 31, 2005, 05:11:14 PMNow I just have to work out how to avoid this in my own games. Or, rather, how to provide meaningful choices to my players.
I advise you to get your hands on a game that will make it
impossible to fall into the traps of the style of GMing you've learned to hate. Try
My Life with Master, or
Dogs in the Vineyard, or
Primetime Adventures, or
Polaris, or some such system - it would be a real feat to play any of those without having meaningful choices.
Much safer to do that than to try to put meaningful choices into a system that wasn't built for them (say,
Shadowrun) or that is more easily broken by players with wrong preconceptions (say,
Sorcerer - if you misunderstand the concept of 'bangs' because of your RPG-background, the game won't work).
Hi all,
I've started a new thread about the D&D game. Of good GMing experiences, one in particular springs to mind:
About two years ago, I had a brief interest in running a rolegame again. So I got in touch with some old school friends and arranged to run a few session over the Christmas period. In the end, I did one session with three players, all of whom I'd known for years and had run games for before.
For prep, I bought the 3.5E books (I'd already sold my very diverse game collection) and started mapping out a classic dungeon. Far too big to be cleared in one go, I'd envisaged it as part of a massive complex which would re-populate over time and had near-constant attention from many adventuring groups. Stealing some ideas from old Tunnels and Trolls solos I set up a bar and a shop above the dungeon in a not-wholly-unrealistic (for the setting) way. I created some NPC and (mostly other adventurers), and even some props (such as a sheet for the "dead and missing" board).
The thing that did it for me with this setting, and that made it really exciting, was the fact that it felt "alive". I.e. I could really imagine all those adventures living in a lose, transient community around this dungeon and trying to strike it rich. Kind of like a gold rush feeling. And the constrained environment (i.e. the mapped-out complex plus entrances/exits and the forest areas near them) meant that players would enter the same areas and meet the same NPCs repeatedly while experience intense tactical challenges and undertaking goal-driven expeditions ('Can we find the Sword of Solas?", "Can we get Mental's body back from the trolls?').
This mean that (a) locations would get fleshed out and (b) characters would come alive (both in the personality and stats sense) over time, rather than being plot-dependent throwaways.
(Regarding 'come alive in the stats sense' - I can't overemphasise how important it is for me to be able to say "Adelard is much harder than Grief, especially with all his flunkies, but if Grief got the jump on him he'd take him down pretty quick." and have it actually *mean* something that isn't dependent on GM fudging and the accursed 'plot'.)
At the last minute, I got cold feet, and decided that for a one-off a completely different kind of game was needed. I realised that I really wanted to wing it, to let the players go where they wanted in a sprawling fantasy city. So I scrawled down what I remembered of Lanhkmar on a single sheet of paper, along with notes like (Zanzibar the Necromancer has disappeared (with the black and white swords), Adelard is big in the wizard's guild, etc). Then I just ad-libbed it from there.
And it was great. The characters met notables, got into brawls, found the necromancers tower and went in, met with Adelard and he explained what the events in the tower might mean. At one point they nearly died (attacking some pretty serious thieves-guild members) but they lucked out. I came up with several locations and characters completely on the fly, and in the process of course I was fleshing out the city and its description.
I did use force techniques at the end of the session to give them a mission for the next one, by staging a too-hard-to-fight ambush by a major NPC. In retrospect, this may have been a mistake and an enthusiasm-damper.
I still used the D&D rules in the end, right down to using a wipe-clean battleboard and counters. This was great, took a lot of "scene load" off my mind and let me concentrate on playing the NPCs and arbitrating the rules. But I don't know how much I got lucky with the tactical balance.
I started the PCs at 3rd level, too, which was an excellent choice. I think those old players were sick of playing 1st-level weeds, because my games never lasted long enough for significant experience to be gained. I guess, they enjoyed having some choices, some powers to play with, and the ability to be a bit aggressive without being stopped. Of course, it was their only session in years so novelty and nostalgia probably played a big part.
****************
Thinking back to other sessions that I enjoyed running....the two that come to mind were also both wholly adlib. One was a Fudge one-off, the other was the start of a (short, as ever) Shatterzone campaign. The Fudge game was just anarchy (one player was "Werlin, Merlin's older, smarter brother"), while the SZ one was page-of-notes style and adlib from there (I think I'd planned that the players needed to steal a ship to get off their home planet, and I knew the name of the vegetable that the planet's economy was based on.). I'm pretty sure that in those the players really had fun, altho I was even less observant then than I am now.
So, can anyone detect a preferred CA or other preference there? The more I read Forge stuff, the more confused I get about my own interests. I think I may be interested in several different play styles and CAs that can't be (coherently) combined in a single game.
Rob, did you intend to make this a new thread? Or are you relating this to the Shadowrun discussion?
I don't see that much that points to a particular CA here. I think there's not enough information, frankly. In particular, what did you like about these stories you've liked?
Quote from: Rob Alexander on November 01, 2005, 05:08:31 AM
So, can anyone detect a preferred CA or other preference there? The more I read Forge stuff, the more confused I get about my own interests. I think I may be interested in several different play styles and CAs that can't be (coherently) combined in a single game.
Of course you are interested in different play styles that can't be coherently combined! Ok, maybe 'of course' is a bit too strong, but seriously, I think even most hardcore narrativists enjoy some tactical gaming now and then. You don't have to choose one Creative Agenda and play only games catering to that; that would be a bit like saying "I like chess, so I can't also like Monopoly, because the former is strategic and the latter is more a game of chance and luck". Of course you can like both chess and Monopoly, and of course you can like both D&D and My Life with Master. The activity of 'roleplaying' is not a monolithic whole, but rather a plurality of different activities.
So rather than trying to determine what kind of roleplaying you enjoy most by
reading about it, I suggest you go and determine it by
playing games. You've been playing some heavy Gamist D&D, and you enjoy it. Good. Maybe you want to try some Narrativist gaming too? Then you'll know more about your preferences. And maybe you want Gamism on sundays and Narrativism on Fridays - there is not wrong with, or even strange about, that.
QuoteRob, did you intend to make this a new thread? Or are you relating this to the Shadowrun discussion?
I didn't - should I have? I suppose this thread is meant to be about the Shadowrun game, and that other post isn't , so I guess I should have.
Is there any way I can fix this now?
Quote from: Rob Alexander on October 31, 2005, 04:15:32 PM
I think this is one of these "Please diagnose my problem" threads. I'm a jaded player who's been out of rpgs for a while, and I'm trying to work out:
a) If there's anything in rpgs worth coming back to.
and
b) What kind of play I can actually enjoy.
Hi Rob
Listen, I am only one of the dweebs here, there are far more cogent and sage contributors than I. However, I am never short of an opinion, so.....
I will assume you have read the articles about Gamism, Simulationism and Narratavism by some of the things you say, like feeling 'the unhappiest player in the world syndrome'.
Listening to your words I would say that you are not so interested in the exploration of a world that is not of your design.
You love that moment when you get to 'step on up', and hate any notion of fudging.
You like to be challenged to make interesting decisions that actually drive the story.
You will become disinterested in play where you detect you are playing along to the scenario/ GM's story.
I think this marks you out as a gamism player, which means that you will also enjoy the Narratavist creative agenda for reasons explained in Ron Edwards article Narratavism:Story Now.
Thus we can see that you will enjoy D&D games where you maybe hack through a dungeon, and games like Sorcerer and games of that type, which are really about players making meaningful choices and being in control of their own characters destiny.
One thing to remember about the Creative Agenda's, is that they are models of player/Gm behaviour. System Does matter, as per Ron Edwards article, because a good system will support a particular CA, which will broadly benefit the roleplaying experience.
I suspect that you have little time for classic simulationist play, and doubt you would get much out of the average Call of Cthulhu scenario either! I think the Narrativism:Story Now article has a chart with many common roleplaying games on, showing how they relate to the various CA's, but beware that because a game supports a particular agenda, play will only conform to the CA agenda presented by the GM. Sorcerer explicitly talks in ways to foster 'Story Now', but the game Heroquest, which is a very powerful Narratavist system is actually presented as something like a solid Simulationist game, and that is how many play it.
Any help?
Regards
Rob
I love Shadowrun, but it's not easy to do right. I guess it's pretty much a gamist thing, but very different from D&D.
In Shadowrun, tactics is largely about your character and the caper style cool plan to get in. Beyond that it's all gear selection and refining your kit. Why do I love it? Because the gear really stacks up, the measures and countermeasures are tightly detailed, and the crunch is heavy. There is a very narrow spread in Shadowrun between 'dead easy' and 'near impossible' and when you angle yourself to the right end it's a very worthy feeling - as is the moment of dread when you've been angled out of it and it becomes rather tough.
Now, the modules - the modules are crap. In SR you need a GM with the leeway to say yes or roll dice. A module just doesn't provide that. And we don't really need any more analysis on why the clue train is going nowhere fast.
So, the typical Shadowrun mission - get hired to steal some cool shit at some heavily guarded location. Then you find a slick way to get in. Somehow, everything goes to hell, the alarm gets sounded, and you have to fight your way out. Then there's some tricky business with the Johnson at the end.
Now, the tough fight and the alarm more or less take care of themselves. But the real tricky business is the slick way in. I read one module that went to great lengths to cut off every damned reasonable plan to get in with some clever countermeasure. What a load of beeswax. This is the cool caper movie style thing! You need them to set up their surveillance and AVOID geting bogged down in an endless cycle of planning. Which means more or less SAYING YES to the first decent clever thing they come up with, and then throwing in a wrinkle or two.
The modules look good on paper, but as you said, who cares about virtual Seattle! Blow it up! Shadowrun lives and dies on it's characters stepping up to be cool one by one, and it's the GM's job to make that happen until they blow the crucial rolls and it all comes crashing down.
BTW, Humanity? There is no humanity in SR. It's Cyberpunk you're thinking of, I suspect.
Rob,
As far as the Shadowrun game, it sounds to me like you mainly just want to be able to play.
I don't play bridge, but I know that a player role called the dummy involves not being able to play. Another player uses the dummies cards. I assume that doesn't bother the people who enjoy the game. It is temporary, fairly distributed, and clearly communicated. The dummy is free to leave the table for a bit. In an rpg where the gm is the only one making choices, it's like being the dummy all through the game.
Since D&D, games have normally had a clearly defined means for making a character become dead. Killing may be the only solidly defined conflict resolution in the game. Most things are left to GM interpretation. As Tony says, a good GM can make those games work by having the right mindset, but the books don't tell you crucial parts. One of the common ideas in forge games is having reliable means of determining whether a player succeeds in achieving his goal, beyond only succeeding at his action. I like Great Ork Gods (http://www.greatorkgods.co.uk/) as an easy fun intro to conflict resolution.
I play with a guy that is a good GM, but tends not to run the same game for any significant time. I encouraged him to run games that are intended to be complete at the end of the day, instead of being left hanging. We've had good games with closure at the end of the night doing that.
John
Joshua -
QuoteWhat kind of stories do you like to tell and participate in? It seems most likely you need a better match.
That's kind of a big question, and pretty much what I'm trying to work out here! I think lack of data is a problem, I have so few *positive* experiences that it's hard to find stuff to draw on for an answer.
(Which leads to the question of how I stuck it out for so many bad experiences....but that's for another thread, "Obsessive gamer behaviour" perhaps)
QuoteYou also might want to check out FindPlay and see what other people in your area are into.
I signed up last week, but as of yet there's no-one showing near my city (York, England) or any of the neighbouring ones. Not sure how well Google's map data works for this country or this latitude.
One thing I might try is IRC-based games although, again, being UK-based and working (mostly) office hours will probably make this harder. I'll have a look.
QuoteI don't see that much that points to a particular CA here. I think there's not enough information, frankly. In particular, what did you like about these stories you've liked?
Well, ok, I'll have a stab. My concern is that by doing this (rather than letting others infer it from my experiential descriptions) is that I'll just put out ideas about myself and gaming that I've picked up from reading and that aren't actually consistent with my experiences. I know that when I was younger I did that a lot, in lots of different fields.
I like rolegaming as an act of shared creation. I'm interested in creating, with friends or acquaintances a fantasy world that is uniquely ours, *even if it is very derivative* in the general sense. This is, I think, what I've always been most interested in. And I've almost never encountered it in other people's games - instead, I've found half-hearted fandom towards commercial products.
I'm not bothered about (or even interested in) extended, regular campaigns; given the schedule constraints of adult life I'm much more interested in Conan-style "drop in, drop out" expeditions into characters or setting. I'm even quite interested in "the world is mutable" i.e. warping the setting between games or runs as ideas come to me. M. John Harrison (of the Viriconium stories) has an essay related that at:
http://www.fantasticmetropolis.com/show.html?ey,viriconium,1
which I found really interesting.
(link found via John Kim's site, thanks for that)
As I've noted elsewhere I'm also interested in a "can we win against the odds" style of tactical play, but the logistics to make that work just aren't what I'm willing to do as a GM.
Beyond that, it's hard to say. I just don't have enough good experiences to work with. (That said, before the last few years I just didn't have the intrapersonal skills have good experiences with anything much....so, as others have commented in this thread, I probably need to get out there and game.)
Rob,
When I read what you enjoyed as a GM, I think that you might find this thread (http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=6166.0) very interesting. It discusses a set of techniques/style of play called No Myth, where the basic idea is indeed that you make it up as you go. There's quite an extensive discussion of the practical issues with that and how to handle those.
It is quite long though (6 pages of posts).
Hope you like it,
SR
--
I don't think so. Only a moderator can split a thread.
Anyway, this is your thread. Do with it what you will. I think the questions and comments probably fit both situations.
Okay, while I remember I'll throw something else in. Don't know how useful it will be since it's an emotional response to a throwaway comment, but still:
Something on the Forge struck me quite strongly the other day, and made me sit up and go "Yeah! I want to do *that*!". In the thread at
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=12764.0
Ron makes the comment:
QuoteWow, that is old-school RuneQuest! I just had a high-school era flashback.
Lookit all that stuff there was to do ... drugs! Zorak Zoran worship! Broo and gorp! And the never-ending fascination of trolls.
Ignoring the drugs and the (intelligent) monsters, it's the "all that stuff there was to do" that really hit me. I've never played in (or, I think, run) a game where there were "lots of things to do" and a player could just choose to "do them".
I mean, I have no idea who Zorak Zoran is, but the idea that you could just choose to worship him....and that the GM would be willing and able to just go with that...I mean, the possibilities are endless. You could end up teamed with Broos hunting Gorp on a quest to Initiation with Zorak Zoran while totally stoned on hallucinogenic mushrooms. All because the player(s) wanted to!
(And of course, Zorak Zoran's probably a mad, dead god who's highly inaccessible and very bad news, and although the Mayor of the neighbouring town nearby are very happy to have your help with all the goblins he's getting pretty funny about all this hanging around with Broos... and the fact that his daughter's run off with one of the other PCs isn't helping.)
That's the kind of thing that got me interested in rpgs in the first place (admittedly, I was a kid back then, and my), but I've never been involved in anything that managed play a game that worked like I've just described.
(There's lots of stuff here that's problematic. Not the least that the favour/disfavour with the god and the mayor and the daughter really needs some kind of mechanics if it's going to be viable to make it interesting over time... that kind of stuff is just too hard to adlib convincingly, certainly for me. One time reaction, fine. But if the player keeps worshipping (or wooing) over days and days...that's way too hard.)
Does this shed any more light?
QuoteBTW, Humanity? There is no humanity in SR. It's Cyberpunk you're thinking of, I suspect
He means Empathy, I guess. Like humanity in Cyberpunk, you lose it as you install cyberware. Having a low Empathy causes problems like resistance to helpful magic.
QuoteWhen I read what you enjoyed as a GM, I think that you might find this thread very interesting. It discusses a set of techniques/style of play called No Myth, where the basic idea is indeed that you make it up as you go. There's quite an extensive discussion of the practical issues with that and how to handle those.
Thanks for the link, I'm reading that now and trying to digest it; as you say, it's pretty long and heavy.
Good, though. And the parallels between this Shadowrun game and the problematic game that 'hyphz' describes are striking.
Funny you should bring that run up when I'm again examining my inner self and trying to decide between running Rune Quest and Cold Iron. I'm still not confident that Rune Quest will go well (I'm about to start a new thread and try and dig into my past RQ experiences ). I'm a lot more confident about Cold Iron.
Rune Quest has been an inspiration to me a style of gaming where the players are presented with more choice than just combat. D&D is great for providing "meaningful choice" in combat (which when celebrated, results in good gamist play even if the railroad tracks lead straight to the dungeon entrance). Rune Quest enticed me to to extend that choice to negotiating with monsters, players looking at the map and deciding where to go next, and other choices. But it hasn't always worked for me.
The reward system in Rune Quest does help promote these choices. By not fighting the troll, the players aren't denied XP, in fact, they expand their XP options (they already are eligible for a chance to gain XP in their combat and magic skills, talking to the troll opened an opportunity for a chance to gain XP in their interpersonal skills). They might have lost out on some treasure (but treasure has a very different role in RQ from D&D - it mostly is spent on training, which improves XP). With a world out there that has some meaning, allies are useful.
A key though to the success of that run was that I did not have a plot. The PCs could have helped the trollkin kill the villager in the first encounter. Killing the troll instead of talking to him wouldn't have disrupted some convoluted plot of mine.
Your brainstorming about the sheriffs daughter is something that can be a danger zone. If the GM fixes in his mind the role the daughter is to play (and that role isn't to "just get them to the action" in a gamist dungeon crawl), choice may be removed from the players. If the role of the daughter is at least partly up to the players, then new choices have been opened.
Frank
QuoteFunny you should bring that run up when I'm again examining my inner self and trying to decide between running Rune Quest and Cold Iron.
I wasn't really thinking of RQ as such, I was just adlibbing off Ron's comment. Although I can understand that having 'monsters' with their own, intelligible, goals and lives could lead towards a lot more interesting options. And the comment about 'looking at the map' is interesting although I never noticed that in the RQ material I used to own (admittedly, this is the Games Workshop version of RQ3 that came with no Glorantha material at all).
Regarding the Sheriff's daughter, I didn't mean to imply that the GM had plans for her... rather I meant that the player had made his character take an interest in her and (maybe after a few social conflict rolls) the character had won her affection and the GM was now running with that.
QuoteWith a world out there that has some meaning, allies are useful.
And enemies, too, I suppose. Now what I'd like is a combat/conflict mechanic with scope for results like "he gets away", rather than a (say, traditional task-resolution) one that would require the GM to plan his escape route and make it work (or just fudge it, which is unsatisfying).
Possibly HeroQuest might be appropriate here; the rules synopsis is in my 'to read' pile.
Oh, I realize you weren't thinking of Rune Quest specifically for yourself. I was just noting that it was interesting that you brought up that old post of mine, when I'm in a very similar position now, a year and a half later...
As to the map thing - I am a visually stimulated person, maps with interesting things on them will inspire my play. Lots of other people are the same way. They create relationships (not in the same sense as the relationship maps mentioned in many of the narativist supporting games here) between places. If places have meaning, then those relationships have relevance. You see this in traditional D&D dungeons.
Your thoughts about conflict resolution and stakes other than death are very valid. It will be hard to get them in a combat system like D20. Hero Quest or any of the other numerous conflict resolution games discussed here will definitely allow this sort of thing.
Frank
Quote from: Rob Alexander on November 01, 2005, 04:04:44 PM
Possibly HeroQuest might be appropriate here; the rules synopsis is in my 'to read' pile.
....and if you do make it to Dragonmeet in London, I can guarantee you a game of Heroquest. I and a few others will be running demo's under the Masters of Luack and Death banner.
Quote from: Rob Alexander on November 01, 2005, 04:04:44 PM
(And of course, Zorak Zoran's probably a mad, dead god who's highly inaccessible and very bad news, and although the Mayor of the neighbouring town nearby are very happy to have your help with all the goblins he's getting pretty funny about all this hanging around with Broos... and the fact that his daughter's run off with one of the other PCs isn't helping.)
Crikey, you'll be a fine narratavist gm with that mindset!
Regards
Rob
Hi again Rob,
Quote from: Rob Alexander on November 01, 2005, 03:01:15 PMIgnoring the drugs and the (intelligent) monsters, it's the "all that stuff there was to do" that really hit me. I've never played in (or, I think, run) a game where there were "lots of things to do" and a player could just choose to "do them".
Have you ever player a console 'sandbox style' game, like Grand Theft Auto, or Mercenaries?
I get that 'I can choose to do whatever' stuff from these games, though it's not nearly as powerful as it would be engaging an imagined game world. Here's a link to an actual play example of mercenaries I wrote up, since I was so impressed: http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=14575
Quote(There's lots of stuff here that's problematic. Not the least that the favour/disfavour with the god and the mayor and the daughter really needs some kind of mechanics if it's going to be viable to make it interesting over time... that kind of stuff is just too hard to adlib convincingly, certainly for me. One time reaction, fine. But if the player keeps worshipping (or wooing) over days and days...that's way too hard.)
I find the problem in gaming this way is between two design goals.
1. Explore the world in a 'just choose to do stuff' manner.
2. Have tactically interesting conflict.
I find they just don't sit easily with each other. See, the exploration (and it's required adlibbing) doesn't tend to create interesting conflict without focus on that. And if the GM focuses on making tactically interesting conflict, it kills off exploration since were not finding out about the world, were just finding out what the GM thinks is a good challenge.
GTA and Mercenaries in particular do combine the two, but most by making exploration so easy that it's easy to do tons of it...and eventually by chance you end up in some tatically interesting situation. Very problematic time wise to try in tabletop play. And it ends up more like 'betterist gamer in the world' style play.
Sound familiar at all?
Quote
I find they just don't sit easily with each other. See, the exploration (and it's required adlibbing) doesn't tend to create interesting conflict without focus on that. And if the GM focuses on making tactically interesting conflict, it kills off exploration since were not finding out about the world, were just finding out what the GM thinks is a good challenge.
This is what gets me curious about what happened to power the enjoyable Rune Quest campaign I had, because I think both things were happening. But I'm not sure if it was luck, or what. If it wasn't luck, I think it's worth trying to figure out what elements drove it to be able to repeat the experience.
If you want to expand on my experiences, please see this thread. (http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=17467.0)
Frank
Hi all
I'm a bit overwhelmed with the volume of replies in this thread, plus the various ones you've all linked to. So please, don't any of you be offended if I don't manage to come up with a reply to your post. Thanks to all of you for the great response...not being too sure about the Forge etiquette I was worried I'd get an icy reception.
Quote....and if you do make it to Dragonmeet in London, I can guarantee you a game of Heroquest. I and a few others will be running demo's under the Masters of Luack and Death banner.
I'll have to see how things pan out...but I should be able to take you up on your offer.
QuoteCrikey, you'll be a fine narratavist gm with that mindset!
Thanks....I hope you're right!
Quote from: Rob Alexander on October 31, 2005, 04:15:32 PMI was a bit stuck for a character at the start, so I settled on a Street Samurai based on the character 'Ghost Dog' from the movie of the same name. Throughout the run, I had real trouble "getting into character" - I just couldn't work out how he'd talk or what he'd do. Towards the end, I just started playing him as a "big, well-meaning dumb guy" which worked for laughs but wasn't what I'd intended at all.
The first session was okay, and a bit of a novelty, but the rest of them I found deathly dull.
About the only exceptions were the fights, maybe four significant ones in the whole run. As soon as a fight started, I "came online" and was very invested in what was going on.
May I just point the obvious? If you are playing the big, dumb street samurai, it sort of make sense that you only "come online" during combat.
Also, as with most anything, playing with strangers is never going to be much fun.
Quote from: gsoylentAlso, as with most anything, playing with strangers is never going to be much fun.
Um.. yeah. Most anything except a well-designed game. You know,
Like Dogs in the Vineyard or
Capes.
... or darts
... or air hockey
... or football, soccer, basketball, gin, poker, monopoly, risk, pictionary, clue, craps, The Settlers of Cataan, Fluxx, Zombies!, hearts, spades, war, stratego, paintball, mahjongg, chess, checkers, scrabble, boggle, dominoes, go, yahtzee, backgammon,...
Oh wait... most game
are fun to play with strangers. It's just the games that are poorly written that are problematic, because you've got to learn how to play them all over again with every group you meet.
Like... D&D, Shadowrun, L5R, GURPS, Rifts, Vampire, Mage, Werewolf, Changeling, Call of Cthulhu,...
-Eric
No need for sarcasm. I think it's pretty obvious most people would choose to play a boardgame with friends. In fact the whole puprose of playing the boardgame in many instances is to be with with friends. That's what games are about.
Sports are a bit different. You play to get better, play to keep fit. When you are that focused the social aspect can be secondary.
This goes even more for a roleplaying games because when you play an rpg you are a lot more exposed than say, when playing Monopoly.
Sure there will be times circumstances force you to make the effort and join new gaming group, but if after a while you don't click with the people, it becomes pretty pointless.
Quote from: Eric Provost on November 03, 2005, 02:31:02 PM
Quote from: gsoylentAlso, as with most anything, playing with strangers is never going to be much fun.
Um.. yeah. Most anything except a well-designed game. You know, Like Dogs in the Vineyard or Capes.
... or darts
... or air hockey
... or football, soccer, basketball, gin, poker, monopoly, risk, pictionary, clue, craps, The Settlers of Cataan, Fluxx, Zombies!, hearts, spades, war, stratego, paintball, mahjongg, chess, checkers, scrabble, boggle, dominoes, go, yahtzee, backgammon,...
Oh wait... most game are fun to play with strangers. It's just the games that are poorly written that are problematic, because you've got to learn how to play them all over again with every group you meet.
Like... D&D, Shadowrun, L5R, GURPS, Rifts, Vampire, Mage, Werewolf, Changeling, Call of Cthulhu,...
-Eric
Hi guys,
I'm the judge of courtesy here, not you. If you have an issue with someone's tone or phrasing, send me a private message and keep it off the boards.
Rob (Alexander), this thread is wandering a little. Do you think it's met, or is meeting, what you want from it? I suggest that we need to focus this one better or let it end here.
Best,
Ron
Quote from: gsoylent on November 03, 2005, 05:30:10 PM
No need for sarcasm. I think it's pretty obvious most people would choose to play a boardgame with friends. In fact the whole puprose of playing the boardgame in many instances is to be with with friends. That's what games are about.
Hi GSoylent - do you have a name we can call you by?
You seem like your pretty new to the Forge, and as a newbie myself, welcome, if you haven't been welcomed before. Although Eric made a point a little, well, I won't get into that - he did have a point of sorts. When I came to the Forge I went straight to the Articles section, read the Glossary, GNS articles and System Does Matter. However, I was advised to do so before I had actually visited the Forge. Others may come by other routes.
If you have read and digested the above articles and read Eric's post again, I think you might understand what he was getting at.
If you have any questions then fire away, but you may wish to start a new thread. Forge etiquette requires that threads don't wander 'too' much. Make sure you read the stickies on the front of each Forum to minimise those 'doh!' moments.
Best regards
Rob
Ron Edwards:
QuoteRob (Alexander), this thread is wandering a little. Do you think it's met, or is meeting, what you want from it? I suggest that we need to focus this one better or let it end here.
Well, I've got a lot of ideas and observations out of this thread that I'd like to take some time to think about. So in that sense it's been good, yeah.
But I don't really have any particular ideas for focussing it now. My brain is a bit overloaded with all of this and the other threads I've been reading. So probably best to stop it here before it goes all wobbly and vague.
Thanks everybody for your comments and advice, and for making a newbie feel welcome.