The previous thread was closed before I read it and could comment. As I understand the process, here, I have started a new thread. This may be especially apt, as my point is tangential.
Quote from: Ron Edwards on November 23, 2005, 04:00:44 PM
Despite our differences in style and hot-buttons, I am seeing a crucial consensus among Ralph, Luke, Clinton, Keith, me, and others. It is:
Given POD printing and internet ordering, as well as useful fulfilment houses, there is no reason for further centralization of any step of the current model.
Which means tossing POD into the hands of a single distributor is no "solution" - because there's no current problem, at least not for us, nor for anyone who wants to do what we do.
(snip)
The "solution" is nothing but a barrel of unnecessary and disastrous problems, the more so because no actual problem exists. Printing has never been easier, nor capable of such great-looking product for so little money. What I see in your "solution," Sean, is that distributors are desperate to make themselves relevant in some way, now that they've effectively become obsolete. So, they have a problem. Not us.
The "problem" I've been seeing as a publisher of PDFs and PoDs is that there is a certain sector of gaming consumers
who will not buy PDF/PoD products, despite an interest and desire specific not just to the genre or style of the product in question, but
that actual product itself.
These consumers wish to enter a game store, see the desired product on the shelf, and purchase said product from game store.
Often, this is due to:
A. The customer wishing to leaf through the product;
B. The customer wishing to have the instant gratification of purchase (of professionally printed and bound product);
C. The customer wishing to support their game store;
D. The customer being unable to purchase a PDF/PoD game due to lack of credit card or paypal;
E. The customer being philosophically opposed to purchasing a PDF/PoD on general principles; or
F. Two or more of the above factors.
I cannot tell you how many potential customers have told me they would purchase
Dead Inside or
Truth & Justice from their game store if they saw it; I stopped counting at two dozen for each product.
(Up until very recently, however, the economic and the social aspects of entering distribution, however, have been more trouble than they were worth in terms of profit from until sales. Things are slowly looking up; there's potential there, which is growing greater.)
The possible "problem" I can see here is that there are customers who would (theoretically) buy the product if it were on the shelf. An economic PDF/PoD distro solution could help that, if the retailers order the products.
To sum up, that's one "theoretical", one "could", and one "if."Now, while I'd love to get my products in the hands of the consumers who are suffering from issues A through F above, I cannot see any way to do such without actually entering distro. (Extensive previews won't satisfy the As, near instantaneous email and self-printing doesn't satisfy the Bs, nothing but the game on the shelf satisfies Cs, etc.)
However, I've got to assure that doing so at the very least doesn't cost me money/pays for itself, and preferably provides some profit.
At least, that's how it appears to me.
CU
Hey Chad,
You got a good point, but it is being answered to a certain extent. I know over at IPR we have begun selling directly to retailers and that seems to be pretty successful so far. A lot of the publishers there are hawking POD products. Also, it bypasses the distributor and consolidates a whole bunch of publishers into one area for ordering purposes. For myself it makes me less money if someone buys from me online, but it is still profitable and it gets the game into the hands of people that fall into those criteria you mentioned, making it worthwhile.
Keith
Brennan's nailed it.
Since distribution is unreliable, exactly as Ryan described in the parent thread, it typically fails even to meet the needs you've stated. Chad, you rightly point out that we can't rely on a "would" statement from people, as in they "would have" bought the game from the store, as if it were rock solid. But I do agree that they might be real needs, at least to a small extent, for a few people, I completely agree that having my books in stores which (a) can stock them reliably and (b) re-order them once sold is a fine thing, although as I've stated, not a make-or-break issue.
Basically, I like to cut retailers inclined to do (b) into the existing functional publisher/customer loop. At the moment, both IPR and Key 20 are doing a good job at getting them the (a) they need. Oddly enough, these also tend to be the retailers who don't mind a little extra step in ordering, as long as it pays off, who do monitor what their customers actually like rather than merely brainwashing them, and who pay attention to the attractive look & feel of their store rather than being Weird Bob's Grognard Retreat. So it's a win-win when it happens.
But there's no traditional distributor in that picture. Looks right, looks left, looks under chair ... nope, not there.
Best,
Ron
Quote from: Bob Goat on November 25, 2005, 08:32:28 AM
You got a good point, but it is being answered to a certain extent. I know over at IPR we have begun selling directly to retailers and that seems to be pretty successful so far. A lot of the publishers there are hawking POD products. Also, it bypasses the distributor and consolidates a whole bunch of publishers into one area for ordering purposes.
That's good to hear. (Myself, I'm interested in seeing how the RPGNow distro endeavor works out. If it doesn't, I might explore other avenues. Eventually.)
Hm. I'd really like to hear how IPR's direct to retailer project is going -- amount of product moved, number of participant retailers, and number of retailers who are resisting.
CU
Quote from: Ron Edwards on November 25, 2005, 10:59:26 AM
Since distribution is unreliable, exactly as Ryan described in the parent thread, it typically fails even to meet the needs you've stated. Chad, you rightly point out that we can't rely on a "would" statement from people, as in they "would have" bought the game from the store, as if it were rock solid. But I do agree that they might be real needs, at least to a small extent, for a few people, I completely agree that having my books in stores which (a) can stock them reliably and (b) re-order them once sold is a fine thing, although as I've stated, not a make-or-break issue.
Agreed.
Ultimately, this "problem" is two-fold, and really has little to do with the publisher:
1. Customer only wants to buy product on his terms, maybe, possibly.
2. Retailer only wants to deal with a single distributor.
Now, I have
slightly more empathy for #1. As I customer, I often go to B&N or Borders looking for a book, and if I cannot find it there, refuse to order it through them. That's if I want instant gratification or have another immediate need.
However, if I really want/need the book, I then go and order it online when it becomes clear that it's not physically availabe in my area. Furthermore, when regarding products that have such a short shelf-life, like games (90 day sell cycle rant snipped), I often don't hestitate
On the other hand, #2 is one of the overarching problems of the three-tier system, and is completely releated to product-hobbyists opening stores without thinking the business through. Take, or example, the hobbies of book-reading and book-collecting/dealing. I'd be dollars to donuts that the latter hobbyist has a better chance of running a successful used book store.
I don't bring up business hobbyists, because I doubt a businessman would open a game, comic book, or non-used bookstore (or mom 'n pop supermarket) in today's market.
Quote from: Ron Edwards on November 25, 2005, 10:59:26 AM
But there's no traditional distributor in that picture. Looks right, looks left, looks under chair ... nope, not there.
The only place that a tradistional distributor fits is to cover #2 above... and, trickledown, those people in #1, served by number #2 stroes, who cannot or will not order online.
I am 100% agreed that it'd be nice, and is definitely not a make-or-break. At least not at our sector/layer/sales numbers of the industry.
I can envision a certain point of visibility and sales and marketing where retailers are a necessity for a product, but -- as I think you are often fond of saying -- as a marketing expense. I'd go further: if you have come up with the equivalet of
Apples to Apples, a game with massive crossover appeal, and cannot crack the standard mainstream game distros to Toys R Us and Kmart and such, the gaming industry distro system is a very viable stepping-stone.
IMAO, of course.
CU
H'm. I guess I'm not seeing the same opening/window you are, or maybe we're not communicating well ...
As I see it, the retailers who refuse to consider anything but looking in GCQ or their single distributor's order-list are the same ones who would not benefit us, or any publisher really, through ordering. They order what their weird little rumor-community considers hot at the moment, plus slush-piles with a little extra cash once in a while, and do not re-order specific titles from those slush-piles based on sales. This is not hearsay or speculation on my part. These guys brag about this.
So I see zero return in expanding store-presence beyond those retailers who do the (a-b) I described before. Those guys are serving their customers and me; the other guys are not, so any effort to get into those stores is wasted. A sale through such a store isn't worth much because it's not followed by an immediate, reliable re-order.
Chad, it seems to me that you're advocating making that extra effort which I am saying isn't worth it. All for the benefit of what seems to me very iffy, very few, very low-return, unsustained sales.
If a guy comes up and says, "I woulda bought your game, but it wasn't in my store," and flatly resists any and all other avenues, it seems to me he doesn't really want my game, and the "woulda" is highly dubious from the start. That's the iffy. Your "two dozen per title" is a very low number in terms of sales, definitely under the radar for "problem to solve," as I see it, and considering I'd be making (for Sorcerer) $2-3 profit per book, also under the financial radar. What, two dozen at $2.50? I "lost" $60? And really that's no loss at all, since those same copies are about to sell on-line, to others, for a profit more like $14 per book.
I think the reliable and business-savvy store presence can be thoroughly met by that core of excellent retailers who do (a-b). It seems to me as if your primary concern would be solved simply by identifying and getting to them, either directly or through Key 20 or IPR, and that any and all concern with the "other" stores can be jettisoned with no loss.
Best,
Ron
Quote from: Ron Edwards on November 25, 2005, 11:50:45 AM
H'm. I guess I'm not seeing the same opening/window you are, or maybe we're not communicating well ...
As I see it, the retailers who refuse to consider anything but looking in GCQ or their single distributor's order-list are the same ones who would not benefit us, or any publisher really, through ordering. They order what their weird little rumor-community considers hot at the moment, plus slush-piles with a little extra cash once in a while, and do not re-order specific titles from those slush-piles based on sales. This is not hearsay or speculation on my part. These guys brag about this.
So I see zero return in expanding store-presence beyond those retailers who do the (a-b) I described before. Those guys are serving their customers and me; the other guys are not, so any effort to get into those stores is wasted. A sale through such a store isn't worth much because it's not followed by an immediate, reliable re-order.
Chad, it seems to me that you're advocating making that extra effort which I am saying isn't worth it. All for the benefit of what seems to me very iffy, very few, very low-return, unsustained sales.
Ron, we are not in disagreement, save in the amount of return we see for expanding store-presence. Where you see zero return, I see "more than zero, but less than one" return, if that makes any sense.
I'm not advocating making that extra effort for the sales. Not at all.
If anything, I'm advocating making a mild effort (once systems/processes come online to make this much more trivial, like IPR and the RPGNow distro entry) for marketing purposes -- game on shelves, game in minds. Serving those cloistered customers and retailers is a side-effect.
If the system or process doesn't cost me money -- or better yet earns me something -- it's a better deal than buying advertising space somewhere, strictly in terms of a marketing effort.
Would you agree in that light that there is some mild value in the distro system?
I guess the question is if there's a marketing idea that works better than that for cheaper (or in this case, pays me more for taking advantage of).
CU
Quote from: chadu on November 25, 2005, 12:06:27 PM
Would you agree in that light that there is some mild value in the distro system?
Hey Chad, very interesting topic, I was about to branch off a topic specifically to talk about this:
C. The customer wishing to support their game store
Coupled with a new one:
G: Customer is new to the hobby or casual gamer, who is open to new games but hasn't made the leap to
researching or talking about games on the internet (so he doesn't know about the bigger world out there). In other words, the dream scenario for a lot of people that do keep the fingers in the doors of traditional distribution: The traditional gamer dude that walks into the game store to see what's new, ends up leafing through a copy of Sorcerer or Dead Inside or CoS or whatever, and goes "Holy Fuck! THIS IS WHAT I'VE BEEN MISSING!!!", and begins playing again.
I think everyone here on the Forge wants to keep that door open to G.
The problem is that, with all this talk of making more money by ignoring trad distro, we essentially cut C and G out of the equasion for most game stores. Which is, of course, a little saddening. Pardon the metaphor, but it's kinda like saying, "Hey, here's your (gaming) salvation, you just have to tirelessly hunt for it (on the internet) to realize it exists."
Thing is, what Ron was saying above really clicked: A lot of the factors that prevent us from getting the game to customers C and G are largely the fault of the folks who (mis)manage their gaming store, whether they realize they're at fault or not. The reason that Ron is reluctant to get involved is because, to affect lasting change, and to not simply throw thimbles of water on a maddening fire, you can't simply shuffle your products into standard distro yourself (even if you find an easy way to shuffle your products into the standard distro system). Rather, you have to train and re-educate game store retailers. You have to teach them about this market, make them receptive to it by showing them how it will make them money, and basically get them off their duffs to help themselves. You have to teach poor retailers (the majority of game store owners, from my own experience) how to be good retailers; you have to teach them
how to do their jobs.
That's an unholy amount of work just to get a few copies of your book in the hands of customers C and G. I think that I've been seeing a 4-year trend by game publishers on the Forge to rather pray that customers C and G start looking up games on the internet, and react accordingly by making their games accessible and understandable once thos potentials reach the internet. It's paying off now and all, which is fine and good, but still... wouldn't it be nicer to reach a few other less internet-driven customers?
It would be, but that would require us again to find retailers, tell them what they've been doing for the last X years is pretty much misguided and/or wrong, and train them how to do their jobs properly. After reading this thread, I, too, have come to the conclusion that it's too high of a time investment for too little a return.
-Andy
Chad, I bought Dead Inside from a retailer, but I bought it because of your name on it (having read a lot of GURPS stuff) and even at that point, several years ago and before I found The Forge, I was looking for independent RPGs (just like I look for other indie media). So my reasons to buy were probably fairly unusual.
Anyway, I'm eagerly reading along with this thread and not taking sides until I've thought about it a lot.
Sorry, I wanted to explain this point better:
Quote from: me"The reason that Ron is reluctant to get involved is because, to affect lasting change, and to not simply throw thimbles of water on a maddening fire, you can't simply shuffle your products into standard distro yourself (even if you find an easy way to shuffle your products into the standard distro system)."
I was basing this off of what you said here:
Quote from: chadu on November 25, 2005, 12:06:27 PM
If anything, I'm advocating making a mild effort (once systems/processes come online to make this much more trivial, like IPR and the RPGNow distro entry) for marketing purposes -- game on shelves, game in minds. Serving those cloistered customers and retailers is a side-effect.
If the system or process doesn't cost me money -- or better yet earns me something -- it's a better deal than buying advertising space somewhere, strictly in terms of a marketing effort.
Now, I'm wondering if you could explain that further, maybe with an example? I might be misunderstanding here, but what I thought when I wrote the above is this:
If you advertise or spend money into marketing your game, or hire someone to do it for you, then you'll probably see a bump in sales for your product. The problem is, since most LGS retailers suck at their chosen job, all you will see is a small bump in sales for that product; the next product you release? Unless you had an ad for your upcoming product in the back of your last product's book, then you're going to have to repeat your work again, and again, for each time you release another product, to keep it in the sight and mind of the retailer, customer, etc. Repeat and rinse until you run out of cash, or until you become one of the few; the Shit that Sticks (Palladium, Mongoose, WW, other consistent sellers who spent enough early on to become fully ingrained in the retailer's psyche).
I'm starting to think the best advice is "Let it Burn; Watch it Die". The good/smart/cooperative retailers are selling small press stuff well, not just the "fluff cash to bargain bin" purchase process. We can hope that more follow their example. Or go belly-up.
-Andy
Chad,
What's the harm in printing up a 100 or so of your books and slipping them into distro to see what happens? Distributers don't order more than a couple of dozen of small press stuff, so there's no danger of needing to print more or of having back stock. Distribution can be an excellent advertising opportunity -- especially since you stand to make money doing it.
As Andy said, those "G" kids are out there. They are pining over the barren shelves of their local game store. They are looking for your game even if they don't know it.
Personally, I have a great one on one relationship with three retailers in my area -- one down the street, two within 200 miles of my house. Yes, 200. One orders directly from me. That's fun. One orders direct from my fulfillment house. That's cool. And one orders my stuff via Alliance. Which is fine by me. There are two extremely beneficial sides to this: first, they expose kids to BW who otherwise would have never heard of it. And, they keep reordering -- which makes getting into retailers and selling at a discount 100% worth it. My game continues to grow via their efforts! And using them as a test case, I feel it's perfectly acceptable to deal with the hassle of distro.
-L
I'm squinting a little. How did I get cast into the role of the "no store ever ever" guy? I'm the one saying get into the stores, for exactly the reason you're saying, Chad. But I'm also saying, pick and choose which stores, and never mind the ones who aren't going to make good on their side of the deal. Which also includes most distributors.
It's getting frustrating to talk about this, because I personally represented all the independent games, as a principle and unique community, at the GTS in 2001, 2002, and 2003. The reason our games are in some stores, consistently and well, is because I did that. That's how Pandemonium in Cambridge, MA, even knows we exist, Luke. That's how IPR and Key 20 are able to do what they do at all, relative to stores, because I spent three years representing and following up and emailing, as well as participating in the "industry" lists and forums. You guys don't know much about that. I paved that road.
Incidentally, there are actually a couple of good-guy distributors out there. They are smaller, fairly regional, and treated like poor relations by most stores. And since their model of success is "become like Alliance one day," they tend to make decisions that break my heart, as they drive their real success into the ground, rather than help themselves or me. But I do want to acknowledge them a little.
Chad, the more I read over this thread, the more it seems to me as if you didn't really know what IPR (http://www.indiepressrevolution.com) and Key 20 (http://www.key20.com) are doing. That's not a slam; I'm trying to show you a whole world of opportunity, for direct sales as well as store sales. I think if you follow up on their sites and email them, Brennan and Jason, respectively, will be happy to tell you how their companies work. You can be in the stores, and not at random, either, but with reliable expectations of sales.
Best,
Ron
Hello again,
OK, I think I'm seeing it. I've already expanded into the retailer zone that you are talking about expanding into. So when I say "no more expansion necessary," that doesn't work for you because you are looking into the zone I'm in, and saying, hey, that could work.
Yes, it works. I really want to help you expand into the functional retailer zone you're speculating about, because I know it's real - I'm in it.
But expanding past that, way out there, into non-functional retailer zone, is a bad idea. I'm trying to help you see the difference between the two and see how you can step into the zone that works.
Best,
Ron
I don't know any of the inside info at IPR and I would hope some would share it... but at RPGMall we found out point blank that retailers would NOT buy from us unless pricing was near 50% off and low or free shipping costs. IPR offers 42%... that's about what RPGMall was offering and we got a grand total of about 4 retailers to signup.
I also found out that it would require SERIOUS sales force effort to call all the retailers to get them to even try the system. They all wanted to work with their main distributors and don't want the hassle of dealing with another account. They point blank said it's not worth their bother when many of these game stores admit to activly supporting indie publishers when they can.
In short, if IPR is actaully reaching any significant number of retailers (50+) then I'd be extreamly surprised.
However, if you enter distribution you reach over several thousand retailers though their solicitation publications and of them probably a hundred or so would actually order your book. Many of which do NOT use the internet at all or have any clue about IPR or your indie websites (nor, if they are decent store owners, have to time to do so).
I own a store. I do what I can to support the indie press. We had a section/shelf in the store full of it. We maybe sold one book a month from there and eventually it got taken down. Just not a wise use of space we pay rent on. I'm sure many retailers (esp these days) are also very cautious of what they stock and take much less risks.
Now, what RPGNow is doing is an attempt to tackle many of these problems while serving all those gamers out there that want a book in their hands TODAY and wish to support their FLGS. We are:
1) working on consignment with our distrubotrs (4 to start that cover 80+% of the nation). This has several advantages. The main one is that you're not subject to some distributor's buyer being caution on ordering your product and never reordering in time to meet demand. You product is ALWAYS in stock at the distros and we make sure they keep getting enough to put on their floor. We use POD methods so there is no secondary warehousing involved. So a store tries your product, surprising to him someone bought it a week later. What would typically happen at this point is he'd call his distro and try to order another - finding out that they are out of stock (or worse told it's out of print which is usually a lazy lie). But with our system, they get the book and we just print another. Steve Jackson Games and several others use this method. Unlike key20 which behaves like a typical fulfillment house with spotty restocking orders (not fault of theirs).
2) We get paid bi-monthly so you get your payments on time. Many distros have gone 90+days on debt and or put you on the bottom of the list to get paid. Why not. Well we're a larger company and doing fullfilment on consignment, so they have to deal with us differently. We get the FASTEST payment process they have. Unlike key20 again which is paid 60 days out usually.
3) We are only selling _PROVEN_ products. We are promoting this fact through solicitation and attendence at GTS and conventions. We'll also be putting out demo CD's and contacting our 80,000 or so customer base with RPGNow and RPGShop to get them to order. When a retailer sees our rather familiar name and the fact that all products going to distro have already proven themselves as top sellers, they will be much more likely to order a print product from us.
4) We make it easy on the publishers. We handle the POD and shipping to distros and solicitation and simply send them checks. Allowing you to do what you do best which is make games not hassle over unpaid bills or missing shippments.
Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is come early spring we should start seeing if this is all enough to make some strides into the "old" distribution system in a new way. This new way should create more customers, sell more product, and make you some money - that you are very likely just missing out of at this point (eg new customers).
James Mathe
http://www.RPGNow.com
P.S. Sorry if this sounds like an ad. I just think that way all the time.
>>The problem is that, with all this talk of making more money by ignoring trad distro, we essentially cut C and G out of the equasion for most game stores. Which is, of course, a little saddening. Pardon the metaphor, but it's kinda like saying, "Hey, here's your (gaming) salvation, you just have to tirelessly hunt for it (on the internet) to realize it exists."<<
I am a big supporter of the idea of getting your game out there in as many ways as possible. However, if your intent is to ru a profitable business, and an efficient one where you build upon todays progress so you have have a larger and more fiscally successful business tomarrow, you can go about trying to put your game out there "at all costs".
Some methods are just not functional. The 3 tier distribution system is a prime example of that. It is a terrible waste of money to spend so much marketing and PR effort winning stores over to the idea of stocking ad selling your products, only to have large numbers of them fail to actuallt stock the thing because the distributors have zeroed it out in their warehouse. And if your consumer marketing attempts to "support" retailers in general on the premise that most retailers could (in theory) stock and sell your games because your distributors (in theory) are out there trying to sell it to them, then all you really have done is drive a bunch of potential consumers on a wild goose chase. And after many of them have done that, you dramtically reduce the chance that they will endevour onto another one in an attempt to actually find a place where they can buy your product.
For each and ever product that distributors claim to carry, but dramtically under service, and on most products that manufacturers produce "to pre orders", with no intend to reprint and support over the long haul, and every retailer that won't go that extra mile to hunt down a source for a product the customer wants, the stability of the hobby game industry itself gets hurt. You lose sales, the retailer loses the premise of offering utility value to their consumers, and we all manage to piss off consumers who can't find what they want and are given false hope by everyone in the 3 tier channel that special orders and whatnot will still manage to service their needs. And entire industrythat fails to fill the consumers needs will soon find it has no consumers.
No. I won't support a distribution methodology that is driving the industry into the ground with very short sighted thinking. Now will I support retail stores that are so blinded by what those companies are telling them, they won't think outside of the box when it comes to trying to service their local customers' needs.
That being said, there are a number of good retailers out there and I am by no means advocating cutting them out of the system. We are working hard to identify who those stores and are making very attractive wholesale programs for them to utilize. We even offer them the same discount that we use to offer our distributors, so long as the enroll into a specific program we have set up. The net result tends to be that each retailer on the program generates invoice amounts equal to what our distributors use to order. Two or three such retailers generate more total revenue than the average distributor use to. But more, it is a RELIABLE distribution method. And that is what counts.
Oh, I also forgot making contact with the nearly 300 active stores registered with our online store locator.
http://www.rpgindustry.com/storelocator
James
Quote from: abzu on November 25, 2005, 01:16:06 PM
What's the harm in printing up a 100 or so of your books and slipping them into distro to see what happens? Distributers don't order more than a couple of dozen of small press stuff, so there's no danger of needing to print more or of having back stock. Distribution can be an excellent advertising opportunity -- especially since you stand to make money doing it.
My personal problems thus far with doing that have been:
1. Lack of capital funding for the print run (though this has changed in the last month; fingers crossed); and
2. Lack of entry into distributors -- I've been told flat out that the sales numbers of my games -- alternately, the size of my catalog -- are too low to be viable.
Like I've said, I'm looking at the situation more closely, and some cash has been freed up to pursue options.
CU
Quote from: Ron Edwards on November 25, 2005, 01:41:16 PM
I'm squinting a little. How did I get cast into the role of the "no store ever ever" guy? I'm the one saying get into the stores, for exactly the reason you're saying, Chad. But I'm also saying, pick and choose which stores, and never mind the ones who aren't going to make good on their side of the deal. Which also includes most distributors.
Fair enough. I didn't mean to cast you in that light.
Quote from: Ron Edwards on November 25, 2005, 01:41:16 PMIt's getting frustrating to talk about this, because I personally represented all the independent games, as a principle and unique community, at the GTS in 2001, 2002, and 2003. The reason our games are in some stores, consistently and well, is because I did that. That's how Pandemonium in Cambridge, MA, even knows we exist, Luke. That's how IPR and Key 20 are able to do what they do at all, relative to stores, because I spent three years representing and following up and emailing, as well as participating in the "industry" lists and forums. You guys don't know much about that. I paved that road.
I am aware of that, and I am grateful.
Quote from: Ron Edwards on November 25, 2005, 01:41:16 PMChad, the more I read over this thread, the more it seems to me as if you didn't really know what IPR (http://www.indiepressrevolution.com) and Key 20 (http://www.key20.com) are doing. That's not a slam; I'm trying to show you a whole world of opportunity, for direct sales as well as store sales. I think if you follow up on their sites and email them, Brennan and Jason, respectively, will be happy to tell you how their companies work. You can be in the stores, and not at random, either, but with reliable expectations of sales.
I'll admit I'm only vaguely aware of how Key20 and IPR are working; I've done light research, but that was some time ago.
I will check them out soon. Currently, I need to build capital for printing, and I also want to see if T&J gets selected for the "second wave" of RPGNow print distro. While this is slightly akin to keeping my eggs in one basket (well, two: RPGNow and e23), I have a reason: showing solid sales is, strangely, easier via one site than two (which seems crazy to me).
Which may be related to being carried by the "core distros" now that I think about it.
Anywho, I'm taking one step at a time. I change one variable in my business processes, check the response, then continue; I take one opportunity, follow it, see the value or lack, then move on. (Sometimes I then add another variable to look for synergies.) It's just the way I operate. So, I will get around to Key20 and IPR (again), but it'll take time because I am very slow and methodical.
To reinterate: I appreciate what you are saying. I agree with what you're saying. We are not at odds. I'm just looking at distro/retail as more of a marketing "expense" than a sales source. . . and you and Luke are offering data that's making me revise that opinion (again, slowly).
It's all good.
CU
Quote from: glyphmonkey on November 25, 2005, 12:46:49 PM
Chad, I bought Dead Inside from a retailer,
Which one, by the way?
Very, very few retailers are/have stocked it, to my knowledge.
CU
Quote from: Ron Edwards on November 25, 2005, 01:45:13 PM
OK, I think I'm seeing it. I've already expanded into the retailer zone that you are talking about expanding into. So when I say "no more expansion necessary," that doesn't work for you because you are looking into the zone I'm in, and saying, hey, that could work.
Bingo! I agree.
Quote from: Ron Edwards on November 25, 2005, 01:45:13 PMBut expanding past that, way out there, into non-functional retailer zone, is a bad idea. I'm trying to help you see the difference between the two and see how you can step into the zone that works.
I hear you. I'm just wondering if the functional and non-functional zones overlap (in the distros) at all.
This is all new to me, and I'm trying to reconcile hearsay, anecdotes and data from all sides, and perform my own analysis.
Your data, anecdotes, and experiences are greatly appreciated.
CU
Quote from: chadu on November 25, 2005, 06:45:15 PM
Quote from: glyphmonkey on November 25, 2005, 12:46:49 PM
Chad, I bought Dead Inside from a retailer,
Which one, by the way?
Very, very few retailers are/have stocked it, to my knowledge.
CU
Chad,
James ("rpghost"--which I just realized is "rpg
host," although I've always read it as "rpg
ghost") carried it in his Milwaukee store. I saw it there, but didn't pick it up. (I rather regret that now.)
There is a very big chance that the book is still in the back room - RPGMall stock is stored at the store warehouse. If you ask them to look in the RPGMall stock in the back room they'd probably find the copy and be able to sell it to you.
I'll probably be keeping a copy of each of the RPGNow distro releases in the store as well.
James
http://www.RPGNow.com/retailstore.php
Hi Chad,
QuoteI'm just wondering if the functional and non-functional zones overlap (in the distros) at all.
They certainly can. Luke and I, for instance, like to keep our books available through Alliance, ADP, and others ... and in my experience, there's at least one good person at every distributor company who wants to see the games move into stores. In the smaller/regional distributors, usually that one person
is the company.
However, policies and practices change at a given distributor pretty fast. Let's not forget that distributors are not gleaming national corporations with wood-paneled conference rooms, secretaries, and water coolers. They look more like an RPG publishing company than most people think: a couple of guys, some warehouse space, a dedicated phone, and not much else. It's not like you have to get certified or anything to start a distribution company. When I visited them, I was startled to see how much their office organization looked more like the family-owned gas station office than what I'd expected, row upon row of carpeted hallways with gleaming linoleum ceilings.
So, let's see, at GenCon 2004, Heather from one of the great retail stores comes up to me and says, "Ron, how come Sorcerer's out of print? We need more copies." Really, I say. According to who? And after a little tracking-down, it turns out that there's some kind of staff shakeup at one of the distributors, and all kinds of weirdness is getting miscommunicated out of there, for lots of companies.
It so happened that distributor had its Madison warehouse right next to the shipping warehouse I was using for a while, before hooking up with Key 20 for store sales. Easy enough - when I did switch over to Key 20, I had the guy in the shipping warehouse go over there and get the Adept Press books from the distributor warehouse directly, and I gave them a check ("buyback," technically). I'd been in the functional zone, and then the boundary shifted on me, rendering those books, in that warehouse, so much unprofitable junk. The scary part is that they already had told people they were out of stock of my books, so if it weren't for that geographic happenstance, I might never have seen those books again.
Fortunately, Chad, with IPR and Key 20 doing what they do, which is a lot like what Sphinx Group did before it focused more on music and comics, and what Tundra originally tried to do before it got strange, it's no longer necessary to saturate the distributors like I had to do just a few short years ago. You can stay a bit more within the functional zone without worrying about the edge shifting on you.
Best,
Ron
Quote from: Ron Edwards on November 26, 2005, 11:31:44 AM
I'd been in the functional zone, and then the boundary shifted on me, rendering those books, in that warehouse, so much unprofitable junk. The scary part is that they already had told people they were out of stock of my books, so if it weren't for that geographic happenstance, I might never have seen those books again.
Flaming crap on a crap cracker! That's in-sane.
Quote from: Ron Edwards on November 26, 2005, 11:31:44 AM
Fortunately, Chad, with IPR and Key 20 doing what they do, which is a lot like what Sphinx Group did before it focused more on music and comics, and what Tundra originally tried to do before it got strange, it's no longer necessary to saturate the distributors like I had to do just a few short years ago. You can stay a bit more within the functional zone without worrying about the edge shifting on you.
Excellent.
When I'm in a position to start exploring this (guesstimating beginning second quarter 2006), I will definitely drop a note here to get your, Luke, Paul, and everyone else's advice on how to move forward.
Thanks again!
CU
Quote from: Ron Edwards on November 25, 2005, 01:41:16 PM
I'm squinting a little. How did I get cast into the role of the "no store ever ever" guy? I'm the one saying get into the stores, for exactly the reason you're saying, Chad. But I'm also saying, pick and choose which stores, and never mind the ones who aren't going to make good on their side of the deal. Which also includes most distributors.
It's getting frustrating to talk about this, because I personally represented all the independent games, as a principle and unique community, at the GTS in 2001, 2002, and 2003. The reason our games are in some stores, consistently and well, is because I did that. That's how Pandemonium in Cambridge, MA, even knows we exist, Luke. That's how IPR and Key 20 are able to do what they do at all, relative to stores, because I spent three years representing and following up and emailing, as well as participating in the "industry" lists and forums. You guys don't know much about that. I paved that road.
Incidentally, there are actually a couple of good-guy distributors out there. They are smaller, fairly regional, and treated like poor relations by most stores. And since their model of success is "become like Alliance one day," they tend to make decisions that break my heart, as they drive their real success into the ground, rather than help themselves or me. But I do want to acknowledge them a little.
Chad, the more I read over this thread, the more it seems to me as if you didn't really know what IPR (http://www.indiepressrevolution.com) and Key 20 (http://www.key20.com) are doing. That's not a slam; I'm trying to show you a whole world of opportunity, for direct sales as well as store sales. I think if you follow up on their sites and email them, Brennan and Jason, respectively, will be happy to tell you how their companies work. You can be in the stores, and not at random, either, but with reliable expectations of sales.
Best,
Ron
Ron,
Please pardon my ignorance here... but are you saying that Key 20 actively sells to retailers (bypassing the distributors)? I was under the impression that they did not do that.
William
Hello,
You'll have to get the lowdown from Jason Valore for the official statement, but what's relevant to me is that they do not simply plead or blanket-promote to distributors - they negotiate, they stay on them, they follow up on re-ordering, and they give me the straight dope about who's buying. Key 20 has its head in the right place regarding who's the client - me.
There are some differences between IPR and Key 20 in how they deal with retailers, but again, I don't want to speak for the companies. If you contact each of them, they'll give you straight answers.
Also, in the interests of disclosure, I'm perhaps unique in using both companies, through a historical accident. IPR handles my direct on-line sales; Key 20 handles my retail orders. So I can say pretty firmly that both do an excellent job.
Best,
Ron
I know this is a tangent, but I can't help myself:
Quote from: Ron Edwards on November 25, 2005, 11:50:45 AMThey order what their weird little rumor-community considers hot at the moment, plus slush-piles with a little extra cash once in a while, and do not re-order specific titles from those slush-piles based on sales. This is not hearsay or speculation on my part. These guys brag about this.
Wait. A. Second. "Do not re-order specific titles...based on sales" equates to "do not allow market forces to affect business decisions." That's
insane.
Or let's call it "ouija-board capitalism." Do people whose own money (owner's investment or employee's salary, either way) is at stake actually operate like this? If so, how long (rounded to the nearest week) do they tend to stay in business?
Like a old-time D&D character about to be crushed by an avalanche, I want to yell out "Disbelieve! It's an illusion! I disbelieve!"
Hi Sydney,
Based on absolutely direct experience, and absolutely clear information and observation, many retailers do indeed operate just like that.
And they don't immediately go out of business, although many of them do, like clockwork. Why do some persist?
1. Many stores do not rely on RPGs as their primary product. Many of them conduct an ongoing boardgame business, an ongoing "hobby gear" business (Matrix fans, Star Wars fans, etc), and especially during the last 10 years, an ongoing CCG business aimed at 9-12 year olds.
2. Many store-owners are dealing with a constant critical-debt problem. In those circumstances, making the nut this month takes top priority. The best way to do that is to hype up, say, the next big thing from TSR (so-called) or WoD, depending on the store's customers, and make sure they buy up whatever gets ordered big that month. To do this, the store owner cultivates a whole community of mid-teen to mid-twenties customers as a kind of personal cult. He becomes their Insider Gamer Oracle; this is, in fact, a primary skill among many hobby store owners, of many kinds.
By contrast, at that level of crisis and debt, something like Sorcerer is totally trivial. It yields a whole $8 profit per core book, and core books sell, even at the stores where it's most popular, perhaps once or twice a month. It's just not a bulk buy. To this sort of retailer, the goal of ordering the game at all is to militate against the illusion that he's enslaved to whatever TSR and WotC pump at him (whoops, forgot Warhammer miniatures - them too). A few little weirdo games up on the shelves provides the "see, I carry everything" message. If one or two of them sell, fine; if not, fine. He just orders up a couple-three of them with every ordering cycle to keep that shelf stocked.
Bear in mind that I have seen such stores, even ones which boast of being the top store in their states, go under, much to the customers' consternation. Wasn't that the best store, with the best guy? What happened? Also bear in mind that the stores which persist are often subsidized through an external business or personal inheritance - basically a big expensive place for the loser husband to hang out with his "business" while the wife's real-estate business or whatever really provides the living wage for the couple. Sound harsh? It's not speculation. I know the guy who fits this description and I know his store well.
So yeah, ouija-board capitalism. Totally. My observations at the GAMA Trade Show are perfectly described by that term.
Best,
Ron
Oh.
Still disfunctional, but now at least comprehensible. This might also explain why my local comic book store has changed ownership about three times in the last six years. (I don't think I've ever even heard of a game store in D.C.).
Quote1. Many stores do not rely on RPGs as their primary product. Many of them conduct an ongoing boardgame business, an ongoing "hobby gear" business (Matrix fans, Star Wars fans, etc), and especially during the last 10 years, an ongoing CCG business aimed at 9-12 year old
While specific stores vary (I can think of three, one of which closed last year), board games don't pay the bills. Stores stock them because the average customer recognizes them, so it's a kind of transitional product. They sell better at Christmas.
For most stores, miniatures games and CCGs pay the bills, and the market for CCGs tends to be teens and early twenties.
Quote2. Many store-owners are dealing with a constant critical-debt problem. In those circumstances, making the nut this month takes top priority. The best way to do that is to hype up, say, the next big thing from TSR (so-called) or WoD, depending on the store's customers, and make sure they buy up whatever gets ordered big that month.
Cash flow is a concern for all businesses (which is what you're describing and not
debt). You have to pay the bills if you're a business. And absolutely, the smaller stores do not have excess cash flow with which to experiment with Indie products. The mature stores, the ones that are making that nut every month, are looking for a product to give them a competitive edge. Those stores are the ones most receptive to product solicitations they receive from outside distribution.
By contrast, at that level of crisis and debt, something like Sorcerer is totally trivial. It yields a whole $8 profit per core book, and core books sell, even at the stores where it's most popular, perhaps once or twice a month. It's just not a bulk buy. To this sort of retailer, the goal of ordering the game at all is to militate against the illusion that he's enslaved to whatever TSR and WotC pump at him (whoops, forgot Warhammer miniatures - them too). A few little weirdo games up on the shelves provides the "see, I carry everything" message. If one or two of them sell, fine; if not, fine. He just orders up a couple-three of them with every ordering cycle to keep that shelf stocked.
QuoteBear in mind that I have seen such stores, even ones which boast of being the top store in their states, go under, much to the customers' consternation. Wasn't that the best store, with the best guy? What happened?
Competition? Death in the family? Inventory creep on the GW wall destroyed his positive cash flow? Went into another industry? Without seeing the financials for a year or two, we'll never know. I've seen a lot of stores go out of business, though, and not one of those owners claimed that he wished he'd invested heavier into indie RPGs.
In all actuality, answer #3 is probably the biggest killer of game stores. Marcus King, owner of Titan Games, buys 30-50 closed shops a year. He tracks certain factors, and nearly all of these closed stores carried a heavy inventory of GW. Managed properly, and kept above a certain volume, it can make money. Managed poorly or moved slowly, it can crush you. I won't go further into that in this thread, though.
Hello,
No one at this site has ever claimed that selling independent RPGs is going to save game stores.
All we can offer are the tendencies toward more sustainable sales over the long run, per core book, and more fun per unit of use. They may not make much money for the retailer, but it'll typically be reliable money.
To some retailers, these features are attractive enough to include our games as part of their business model in a more proactive way, rather than being slush orders. These retailers are welcome to carry the games, and avenues exist for them to pursue - better avenues than just "deal with us one by one," too.
To others, they don't mean anything, and therefore those retailers should not order our games. That's been my line all along.
Best,
Ron
Lloyd,
So you seem to be going down a path I've seen before: Gaming stores only carry RPGs in general out of some misbegotten love. Because true business sense would force them to carry profit-making items like card and miniature games.
In the apparent financial wasteland that is RPG sales: Sorcerer may sell one or two copies a month, but that's often more than most other "big name" lines. Not WotC, but some of the Green Ronin, Mongoose, Eden, Palladium, SJE, etc. How many copies of Stargate do you think still sell? Sorcerer's margin may be lower per book than those lines, but it's going to sell more copies over time. And it's likely that a product with is evocative and challenging is going to bring a customer back to the store for more of the same. So that stocking similar items and being reasonably informed about them, is a profitable venture. Whereas an overpriced book-of-the-line more often leaves the sour taste when it doth suck.
On a related note, have you run a retail store? If so for how long? Where? What was your prime mover?
-Luke
Quote from: abzu on November 29, 2005, 01:46:40 PM
Lloyd,
So you seem to be going down a path I've seen before: Gaming stores only carry RPGs in general out of some misbegotten love. Because true business sense would force them to carry profit-making items like card and miniature games.
Many of the independent retailers--myself included--began as RPG players. I'm not saying that RPGs are a waste of time. I am saying that RPGs alone do not generate the sales necessary to maintain *most* rents. Have you seen an RPG-only store in the past 10 years? I have seen CCG-only stores, and GW-stores do just fine.
RPGs CAN add volume at a good margin at an acceptable turn rate. As such, carrying RPGs is not inherently a bad idea for a game store.
QuoteIn the apparent financial wasteland that is RPG sales: Sorcerer may sell one or two copies a month, but that's often more than most other "big name" lines. ....So that stocking similar items and being reasonably informed about them, is a profitable venture.
Again, it's a question of product lines and the worth of a customer. A customer who buys a GURPS core book will spend about $300. A customer who buys Sorcerer spends...the price of Sorcerer. Also, multiple stores are running a 12-24x turn rate for Sorcerer, I'd be very impressed. For many stores, that would be their 3rd-4th best RPG title, after the D&D core books.
QuoteWhereas an overpriced book-of-the-line more often leaves the sour taste when it doth suck.
You may have your opinion of what is overpriced. I used to think the same until I saw how much money I made selling them.
QuoteOn a related note, have you run a retail store? If so for how long? Where? What was your prime mover?
I ran War Dogs Game Center in Jacksonville, Florida, from May 1999 until December 2004. I sold it to write full time. Both sales and margins increased every year--until we moved the store because the landlord decided to expand into our space instead of leasing it out. That threw a wrench into sales for a while, but 2004 was still the best year for me personally in terms of income.
Notice that I increased sales every year. That means that I was up against Pokemon-level sales after Pokemon had died down. Few retailers can say that.
At the old location (which was until the end of 2003), I at one point had the mix broken into 29.1% RPGs & accessories, 29.1% minis & accessories, and 29.1% CCGs & accessories--a perfectly even mix. Board games were about 5%, historicals were almost nothing at that point and our little LAN and snacks rounded out the rest.
For a while, the RPG mix was artificially stimulated by the sale of books I contributed largely to (or wrote entirely), the Kingdoms of Kalamar Player's Guide and the Kingdoms of Kalamar Campaign Sourcebook. The KCS was probably the second-best selling title during my ownership of War Dogs due to that fact, outselling everything but the D&D PH. The KPG was probably 4th or 5th, after some of the other D&D titles, but still above all non-D&D titles.