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General Forge Forums => Actual Play => Topic started by: Silmenume on December 19, 2005, 01:15:09 AM

Title: [Middle Earth - home brew] - A first, another group with the same play style!
Post by: Silmenume on December 19, 2005, 01:15:09 AM
What I had started to despair as the impossible has been demonstrated to me to be utterly possible!  Through a strange and convoluted series of incidents my GM and I were put in touch with another role-playing group that was very similar to ours in many deep and structural ways.  Almost immediately we had found each other kindred spirits.  This is the first time that has happened since my GM starting running over 20 years ago and the first time that has happened to me since I starting playing in my GM's game 9 or so years ago.  I had started to despair because as I was digging deeper and deeper into theory (i.e., trying to understand the principles of Sim play) I was growing ever more panicked by the fact that my data set was exactly – one.

After an initial round of emails, my GM and I decided to "interview" with the GM of the other game – Myranus.  We had scheduled ourselves to talk for less than two hours, but found ourselves yapping for over four!  Both groups were utterly amazed at how similar our game priorities and methodologies were.  I wish I could find the original email sent to my GM from the Myranus group so that I could post it here.  Perhaps with a little luck...

I do not recall all the details of the conversation as it was long and ranged over a good number of topics, but there were a few that stuck with me as particularly interesting.

The first was the Myranus group was highly selective about its players, hence the interview.  Though they were not aware of role-play theory they were obviously fishing for players who had a Sim CA.  I should also note that on top of that they were looking for a certain level of (for lack of a better term) skill in their players.  From what I could discern the Myranus group had a very prominent Social Contract where it was made extremely clear that not all players had what it took to play their game and that any new players understood that their first few games were probationary.  We came back to this topic several times and again from what I understood the GM was very adroit about this process that he called "firing" as many of his friends had cycled through the game but did not make the cut – and their friendships were not negatively affected.  Kudos to that GM!

This brings me to my next point of interest.  During the Character creation process, which apparently is fairly extensive (mostly personality and back story stuff) a player is presented a list of "skills" which they may choose from.  The skills were labeled with two icons, the first of which I can't remember, but the second icon was the face of a pig.  He explained that these skills required the players to play the skills out (act – ham it up).  IOW one could not say something like, "I use my 'fast talk' skill to get past the guard."  Oh no.  Having the skill meant that the player was allowed to "fast talk" and if he chose that skill, the player had best be good at it because it was the player's skill that made that particular skill work – not the mechanic.  I was floored by this as this lined up very nicely with the notion I had posted on the theory boards sometime past where I said our skill system is really more of check on what skills the player's can bring to bear, not so much an indication of the Character's skill and an even less important part of the mechanical resolution system.  This explained the Myranus GM's strong interest in the player's skills and the interview process and the Social Contract stipulation of the GM having the ability to "fire" new players if they couldn't make the cut.  While we haven't institutionalized the probationary process and don't use the term "fire" both our groups do weed through potential players with the ultimate goal of finding highly "skilled" players. 

Before that ugly and hoary old specter of "Immersion" gets dragged out front and center and beaten to death again – the ability to play a skill is not the same as "immersion."  Just as a Gamist player must show ingenuity when facing a Challenge I claim that the demonstration of said skills is the Sim equivalent thereof.  The use props, we don't.  The use accents, we don't.  The dress up, we don't.  They rarely speak out of Character, we speak more frequently out of Character.  The key to understanding this is grokking the idea that the portrayal of such skills in the face of a difficult situation is exactly where the demands on the players' creativity and ingenuity are made.  (Just as they are when the Players are addressing Premise or addressing Challenge.)

I have not yet played in the Myranus world, but the GM and one of his players played in our game last night.  In the after game debrief, which I think is a critical element of successful Sim play, the Myranus GM commented how he felt that didn't get as much time to stay in his Character as much as he would have liked while I felt that last night's game was pretty standard fair.  IOW, the whole jumping up and down with the accompanying finger pointing and hooting about "immersion" in my game and about Sim games in particular is bogus.  The point is that the game I play in has far less "immersion" than at least one other Sim game.  Staying in Character is a dial setting, an aesthetic choice locally made, not an underlying or defining principle of Sim play.

Going back to the interview I want to draw forth one last moment that really stood out in my mind.  The Myranus GM made an off the cuff remark about how he sometimes wished that system (what he meant is described here at the Forge as Resolution Mechanics here) would just go away.  Fascinating!

Finally to really gum up the works I will end with a quick note about the actual play sessions where both the new players just seamlessly slipped right into the game process and our system like they had been in our game for years.  It was absolutely uncanny how effortlessly they took to "our way of play."  Never have we had players come up to speed so quickly that a "first game" ran just as quickly as when strictly populated by our core members.  It was awesome, and I can't wait to get more data points to see where our styles differ (what the variables are in Sim play) and where the common elements lie (the underlying process and principles).

I don't know if I have provided enough information to be worthy of comment, but I was so excited that I felt compelled to share my experience with others.
Title: Re: [Middle Earth - home brew] - A first, another group with the same play style!
Post by: Caldis on December 19, 2005, 11:11:21 PM
My only comment is that there's little mention of the famed bricolage in this post yet a whole lot about shared goals of play.  The unifying aspects of your play seems to be the commitment to certain expectations from the players, the weeding out of those incapable or unwilling to play in your manner.  To me this suggests that Ron's idea of "The Right to dream"  is correct, play is about dreaming in the right way.   I'd also add that there are other ways of making the dream right, through mechanics such as personality mechanics that dont allow the player to choose a wrong option.  This option would use a different technique then the one your group prefers.

Title: Re: [Middle Earth - home brew] - A first, another group with the same play style
Post by: Supplanter on December 21, 2005, 05:31:07 PM
Jay, it's an interesting account, thanks. The pig symbol is an especially good use of System clarifying social contract, I think. It also interests me that it implicitly or explicitly sets performance standards for play, no? Is it a "Step On Up" cousin? Is there a group interest in seeing players succeed or fail gracefully at pig tasks? It seems that a "fumble" - a bad performance - could risk people's sense of the integrity of the fiction (jeopardize the Right to Dream, I mean).

Here's something I'd love to learn from your next report - maybe you could ask the GM. Has anyone ever "taken a dive" on a pig task, that is, purposefully done less than optimal hamming because they felt their character "should" fail?

Best,


Jim
Title: Re: [Middle Earth - home brew] - A first, another group with the same play style
Post by: Silmenume on December 25, 2005, 07:40:56 AM
Hi Caldis,

Long time, no talk – mea culpa!

Quote from: Caldis on December 19, 2005, 11:11:21 PMMy only comment is that there's little mention of the famed bricolage in this post yet a whole lot about shared goals of play.

That's because I didn't bring it up!  Most of my post attempted to settle around two basic ideas.  The first was a ringing endorsement of Ron's of view of how desperate groups or individuals can get when searching for others that share a similar CA.  Both during the "interview" and after our play session we were practically gushing with excitement and praise for one another.  While I had understood what Ron was talking about in his essays this is the first time I had viscerally experienced it.  We practically clung to each other like survivors of shipwreck in a howling nor'easter gale!

... yet one of our shared goals was to engage in Bricolage – though for all but myself no one know a thing or had ever heard about Bricolage.  But then how many Nar prioritizing gamers out there have ever heard of Address of Premise?  As Ron clearly states in his articles, one does not need to be consciously aware of what they are doing, players need only mindfully engage that (unexamined) interest.

QuoteThe unifying aspects of your play seems to be the commitment to certain expectations from the players, the weeding out of those incapable or unwilling to play in your manner.

Exactly!  Just as those who prefer Addressing Challenge to those who either Address Premise or Bricole we seek to find those who share a similar CA interest!  Everything I said basically lines up with Ron's notion that players are typically much happier and have more satisfying game experiences when everyone is on the same page CA wise.  This was the first time that has happened – and guess what?  All of us, old players and new, were ecstatic as a result of the experience!  We all shared the same general priority of play.  Again, I am not saying anything new, but rather relating an experience for me that really demonstrated on a first person basis the soundness of Ron's arguments.  Hurray for the Big Model!  Woot!!!

You see, we prioritize Bricolage and have stripped down much of the rest of the game process to eject what wasn't strictly necessary or didn't support that priority.  We found others who shared not only the same beliefs, but practiced them.  Of course we weed people out, that's not so unusual – there are lots of anecdotal evidence here at the Forge that demonstrate that Gamists don't mix well with Narrativist and Sim players, Narrativist players don't mix well with Gamist and Sim players, etc.  What was so astonishing to me was that I had grown rather defeated in the hopes of being able to get evidence that such an event could ever occur with Sim.  Not I did get evidence but it supported the Big Model beautifully!  I hope, now that I have some points to compare I hope to be able to start to do some analysis and find some interesting and revealing trends.

QuoteTo me this suggests that Ron's idea of "The Right to dream" is correct, play is about dreaming in the right way.

Much as in Story Now is about addressing Premise the right way as well as Step on Up is about addressing Challenge the right way.  IOW on is not likely to get Story Now by addressing Challenge nor, for example, is one likely to get "The Dream" by addressing Premise.  In such cases as trying to get Story Now by addressing Challenge said players would not be considered to be Addressing Premise the right way either.  I'm not following your statement as diminishing my arguments or somehow demonstrating that I am in error about something.  I fully agree that Addressing Challenge or Premise is certainly not the right way to go about dreaming.  It follows, doesn't it?  That's what the articles state – so I'm a bit lost as to the point your trying to make.

QuoteI'd also add that there are other ways of making the dream right, through mechanics such as personality mechanics that dont allow the player to choose a wrong option.

Absolutely disagree.  That is as damaging to the CA as would having mechanics dictate to Nar players what responses they can make regarding Premise as well as mechanics that prevent Gam players from making a choice that isn't strategically advantageous.  There are no right and wrong answers when it comes to dealing with an intra SIS problem, only interesting and dull ones. 

Let me ask you this Caldis - Could you play and enjoy a Gamist facilitating game that prevented you as a player from making "wrong" choices with regards to Challenge?  To say such a thing about Sim play is to flatly and baldly promote deprotagonization of player choice.

...and I suggest thinking about that a bit before defending your assertion.  What am I, Jay, as a poster suggesting?  I certainly bow to your knowledge, insights and long history of Gamist play as an authority on a great deal of matters concerning Gamism.  I have been playing Sim on and off for since middle school.  This does not mean my arguments are sound or correct, but you might want to spend a moment or two considering what I am trying to say, not just regurgitate party line.  If you can't comprehend what I am speaking about, then ask me before tearing down.  I might have some additional information in my long history that you may not have that I should share and am willing to share if only if my memory were jogged by questions.

So gather some data from me.  Engage me.  Ask me questions about what I am trying to say to demonstrate that you first really understand what I am trying to say before engaging in what might be misinformed criticism.  Walk through my arguments to demonstrate that you have a handle on my position and then point out logical or other flaws.  Don't gainsay me right off the bat.  Nothing that you have presented other than your one assertion above about personality mechanics has in any way been in conflict with what I have written.  In many cases your apparently rebuttals are nothing more to me than aggressive acts of agreement!  So far we have agreed on a great number of you seeming (to me at least) counter points.

QuoteThis option would use a different technique then the one your group prefers.

No.  It is not just a "Technique option," it would be a CA violating Technique.  One that deprotagonizes Sim players.  You can certainly ask me why I think this way, as that would be the opening in a potentially fruitful discourse.  To quote from Monty Python – "An argument isn't just contradiction!"

Hey Jim!

Quote from: Supplanter on December 21, 2005, 05:31:07 PM
Jay, it's an interesting account, thanks. The pig symbol is an especially good use of System clarifying social contract, I think. It also interests me that it implicitly or explicitly sets performance standards for play, no?

Yes it does, if I am reading you correctly.  What it signifies is that for the players who are considering choosing such a skill they had best be able to perform that skill effectively in play because the mechanic will not be substituted for actual player ability.  For example, the GM of Myranus clearly stated if that a player wished to use a bow in game as a weapon then he had best be knowledgeable about bows because what the player brings to the table will be the basis of the determination of the Character's effectiveness with the bow.  He said that he has told players in the past that they should at the very least read some books on bows if they play to be effective with the bow in game.

QuoteIt seems that a "fumble" - a bad performance - could risk people's sense of the integrity of the fiction (jeopardize the Right to Dream, I mean).

If you mean that if the player "fumbles" (and that is not a result of a mechanic) then yes, it very well will likely damage the integrity of the Dream.

QuoteHere's something I'd love to learn from your next report - maybe you could ask the GM. Has anyone ever "taken a dive" on a pig task, that is, purposefully done less than optimal hamming because they felt their character "should" fail?

I will actually forward your question to him!  If you are interested I can give you an answer from our group's perspective in the interim.   It all depends on why they player felt he "should" fail.  Let me give a quick example why a player might think it would be beneficial to his game play experience if he chose specifically to fail in such a category of skill (pig).  A player's Character is in an archery context with a vain, short tempered and powerful lord – the kind of lord who does not like to lose.  Especially in public!  In such a case a player may decide that it would in his and by extension his Character's best interest not to do his best to actually fail in his efforts to say shoot the 10 ring on a archery butt.  Such a reason is fairly sound because beating the lord might lead to all sorts of nasty events befalling our hapless hero!  Like C3P0 suggesting  R2D2 lose the game of "chess" he is playing against the Chewbaca – when it is clear that the driod is clearly superior in his play abilities.  Perfectly acceptable.

Now if the player were to fail because he felt it might make an interesting "ethical or moral statement" or because he thinks that the play feels that this moment would particularly interesting if he had his Character fail on purpose then, no, such play would be looked down on fairly severely.  He would in all likelihood be called on for trying to "manipulate" the game.

I hope that answers your questions.  Feel free to ask more!
Title: Re: [Middle Earth - home brew] - A first, another group with the same play style
Post by: Caldis on December 25, 2005, 10:14:32 AM

Merry Christmas Jay

I have a few points and clarifications to make I dont really want to go line by line to address your concerns so I 'll first start with an actual play example and the try to work around to as many of the points your raised as I can.

The gurps campaign I'm in does use personality mechanics and it's a very simmy game.  I'll show two uses (or actually one use and one non-use) of the mechanics so you can see how it works and why it is sim. 

First off the non-use.  My character has the disadvantage greed.  He will do almost anything for money.  I actively portray him as greedily taking up any opportunity to gain extra coins.  The game has progressed to the point where he is a wealthy businessman but someone comes along and offers him a small sum to kill an important individual.  I gave the explanation that the risk of killing the individual would cause more monetary damage then the killing would gain me so I turned down the offer.  The GM did not make me roll because I've actively portrayed the character as greedy and framed the decision as being influenced by greed.

Another character in the game has the flaw bad temper.  She was in a situation where an npc in the game acted in a derogatory manner towards her.  The player hesitated not sure how she wanted to respond, the gm stepped in and forced her to roll against her bad temper.  She failed her roll so she had to react in an angry manner.  The gm didnt force her action but it did eliminate many possible choices for her.  She was a tough warrior woman so she slugged the guy.

So you see Jay the mechanics worked to reinforce the elements of the game that were sim,  They made the fact that her character had a bad temper show up in play.  Was it deprotagonizing?  Not in this instance, did the player lose some choice of how to handle the situation?  Yes absolutely.

To me this does the same thing as your groups weeding out of players who cant react properly, or the other group requiring people to know about bows if they intend to use them.  It keeps the exploration functioning in the right manner, it treats these elements as sacred.  Of course not being part of your group maybe I misunderstand the criteria for dropping people.  Can you think of examples of people that you have dropped and what the reasons were?  I believe I read of them in your first actual play example but my interpretation of them may be wrong.


This is the difference between Sim and Gam and Narr.  In Sim there is a right way, those elements like greed and bad temper have meaning and must be portrayed correctly. There is no right way to address premise or challenge there is only the active pursuit of either.  If greed and bad temper show up in nar we dont worry that someone who has that trait is portraying it properly we see it as an opportunity to make a statement about greed, whatever that statement will be.  That last bit about nar is poorly phrased but I cant think of a better way to say it at the moment. 




Title: Re: [Middle Earth - home brew] - A first, another group with the same play style!
Post by: Callan S. on December 25, 2005, 10:19:10 PM
I wonder about personality mechanics - to me they say "No, you don't get to make the choice about how this works". Which is cool - the player isn't supposed to make choices about that.

Jay, are you concerned about what the player is explicitly stated as having a choice on (like how their characters personality works)? But if their choice is deemed incorrect by someone else at the table, THEN the personality mechanics are brought out by this someone to correct that? Do you think at this point we have simulationist deprotagonisation?
Title: Re: [Middle Earth - home brew] - A first, another group with the same play style!
Post by: Silmenume on January 02, 2006, 04:26:38 AM
Merry Christmas to you as well, Caldis!

I apologize if I came off as cranky in my previous post, but I just changed meds and my head is still literally spinning.

Quote from: Caldis on December 25, 2005, 10:14:32 AMThe gurps campaign I'm in does use personality mechanics and it's a very simmy game.

That's not an argument – that's a tautology!

QuoteSo you see Jay the mechanics worked to reinforce the elements of the game that were sim,  They made the fact that her character had a bad temper show up in play.  Was it deprotagonizing?  Not in this instance, did the player lose some choice of how to handle the situation?  Yes absolutely.

Red highlighting added.

This is interesting to me on a number of levels, and I think bears some further investigation!

The most notable is the notion that one MUST be forced into acting in a very specific manner in order to "fulfill" the CA requisites.  While I can similarities with mechanics that, say, bring the Address of Premise front and center in an unavoidable way I do not think the example you presented functions on the same general principle.  I.e., bringing the central game process inescapably to the fore and dropping it square in the players' lap.  IOW I don't see your example as an instance of system compelling the player to make a CA relevant decision, but rather said mechanic is an instance which removed/negated the player's decision.  To my understanding, such an act clearly fits the definition of "player deprotagonization."

Again, by analogy, the way your mechanic would function in Nar would mean that a player would be compelled/forced against their will to choose a certain way when faced with the Premise question.  In Gamist play this would the equivalent to a mechanic which forced a player to employ a specific tactic when faced with a Challenge against said player's interests and will.

Another interesting notion that popped up earlier in your post was the mechanically driven value judgment placed upon a personality trait – "disadvantage."  What is meant by "disadvantage?"  Much more importantly why was "greed" treated as a "disadvantage?"  If the player chose of their own free will to play their character a certain way, how could that be disadvantageous in Sim?  One plays their Character, yes?  The whole notion of "disadvantage" smacks of a strategic Gamist tradeoff, but something that is categorically opposed to the Sim paradigm.  If one wants to play a greedy Character, then do it, right?  Conversely if one chooses to play a Character who is generous then they should do so, yes?  So if one does fancy playing a Character as greedy why is that "penalized" by the value judgment of "disadvantage."  Even more troubling is the root – "advantage."  There are no "advantages" or "disadvantages" in Sim; there is only the Character as played – no more, no less.

Sim isn't about value judgments regarding the human condition, that is something in which Nar excels at quite effectively.  Gamism also has its own value judgments, but that is only measured against the ability to Address Challenge.  IOW something might be considered a "disadvantage" if it hindered the player's ability to Address a Challenge in a manner he deemed fit.  Given that such value judgments in both Nar and Gam would be measured against Premise and Challenge respectively in play then it follows that such value judgments should be measured against the player's ability to create and sustain the Dream.  The very concept of a "disadvantage" mechanic as part of a Sim "game system" is in itself a disadvantage upon the player's ability to express the Sim CA – i.e. it has a crippling effect on said player's ability to create and sustain the Dream as they deem fit.

I think the Dream is created by the player's choices – it is not something that is imposed upon the players by mechanics.  So yes, the mechanic enforced a version of a Dream, but it most certainly would not have been the Dream as envisioned by the play upon whom the mechanic was enforced against.  That shouldn't be a controversial idea.  Theme is created by player decisions as "the winning strategy" is also created by player decisions.  Taking a CA relevant decision out of a Player's hand cannot, by the terms of the Big Model, be considered to be CA expressive.  It's a contradiction.    I am curious as to why this particular contradiction is allowed to stand without challenge.  Hmmm....

QuoteTo me this does the same thing as your groups weeding out of players who cant react properly, or the other group requiring people to know about bows if they intend to use them.  It keeps the exploration functioning in the right manner, it treats these elements as sacred.

I don't buy that argument at all.  While all mechanics can be said to be a subset of Social Contract what your statement implies by extension is that Social Contract level issues can be handled by a system of 3rd party decision making.  If I don't like player A because he's hitting on my girlfriend I can resolve that by going to page 18 in the 4th addenda rules appendix and make him stop if I roll a better than a 15 on a d20.

QuoteCan you think of examples of people that you have dropped and what the reasons were?

Sure.  One player was dropped from the game for cheating on his die rolls.  Another was dropped because he consistently fired his bow into combat killing some PC's.  Many are dropped because the game simply moves too fast for them to keep up.  Another bunch are dropped because they just aren't that interesting.  Note the following admittedly shameful nicknames that have been generated over the years – "The rock with lips, Captain Xanex, Cardboard Mike, Mike 38, Jurassic flute."  We've had to drop players because the game got too intense for them.  One ended up being named, "Purple Ernie," because his face got red and then moved to purple while a vein starting throbbing on his forehead as a play was progressing.  Another 1st time player was standing out side the game at the end of the night smoking a cigarette literally trembling and said, "That was the most intense experience of my life!  I'll never do that again.  I play to relax..." We've dropped players because they just didn't "get" the Dream we're trying to create.  Once or twice we've had to drop players because they just couldn't visualize what was being described and were constantly slowing the game down.  I remember one player was dropped because he just couldn't phrase his actions as declaratives but would just ask question after question.  I don't know if I've addressed this last question to your satisfaction.  Please let me know!

Hi Callan,

Quote from: Callan S. on December 25, 2005, 10:19:10 PMI wonder about personality mechanics - to me they say "No, you don't get to make the choice about how this works". Which is cool - the player isn't supposed to make choices about that.

That to me is the equivalent to saying, "The player isn't supposed to make choices about the Premise this way."  Or its like playing a Gamist game in a western setting and then having a mechanic saying the player can't use firearms – especially when such a rule is not supported by anything within the Setting.  If a player chooses to play greedy then he should play greedy.  If on another day he chooses not to play greedy then why must he?  Individuals are neither Turing Machines nor are they finite state machines.  How one plays a Character is an aesthetic issue, not one of mechanics in Sim.

QuoteJay, are you concerned about what the player is explicitly stated as having a choice on (like how their characters personality works)? But if their choice is deemed incorrect by someone else at the table, THEN the personality mechanics are brought out by this someone to correct that? Do you think at this point we have simulationist deprotagonisation?

I'm having some difficulty parsing these series of questions, so if I completely miss the mark let me know, steer me the right way and I will try my best again!

If I read your series of questions correctly, then I would answer your last question in the affirmative.  That is, I would state that we do indeed have player deprotagonization going on (in Sim that is).

Let me ask you this.  If you, myself and Caldis were sitting at table having a discussion and both Caldis and I knew you had a history of being hot tempered, yet in this particular touchy conversation you kept your cool – do you think it would be weird if Caldis or I stood up pointed at you with a trembling finger and uttered, "Dude, you have to get angry because that's the kind of person you are!"  Why?  Why does a hot head have to get hot headed at a specific moment?  Isn't that for said individual to decide?  Then why is it so different in Sim?  I can understand how such a feature could be employed in the address of a given Premise or Challenge but in Sim "the meta" is player creation via Character during play.  There is no right or wrong way to play in Sim, there is however aesthetically or non-aesthetically pleasing play – just like there is in Nar and Gamist play – and that is decided at the local level by the game participants.

Gee whiz!  I mean if someone is playing Darth Vader, he's dying, his son is standing over him and he says, "I want to see you with my own eyes," is some one going to point out a personality mechanic and say, "You can't play Vader that way!  He's evil to the core!  Take that back and do something completely evil!"

Having Vader make such an unusual choice makes for interesting play.  Yes there are norms of behavior, but they are not straight jackets nor are they programs.

Now let me give an example of player where a certain type of behavior might be expected from a player and what could happen if said player opts out of the culturally expected behavior.  Let's say I am the champion of barbarian village.  I am the baddest, toughest, bravest warrior in the tribe.  My character has fought his way to this position through many a bloody and gruesome battles.  I am called forth by circumstances to represent my chieftain in a trial by battle.  As a player I know this foe is a virtual death machine.  I should have the ability as a play to choose not to engage in battle.  However – this does not mean such an action would not be read as cowardice or treason and I have no reason to believe that my character would not be humiliated, executed outright, exiled or what not.

IOW I have a very strong responsibility to be and act brave, but that is my choice as a player, yet I must also understand that there are and will be repercussions for my choices (Chris' entailments.)  I think what most people misunderstand is that just because a player chooses not to express a personality trait that also means that said player does not have to deal with the consequences of such a choice either.  That is absolutely, patently and utterly false.  I can choose to act differently than is expected, but I also must understand that there will be consequences for such a choice.  Dealing with the consequences of choices is very much at the heart of the Sim play process.  To remove player options here is to remove or deprotagonize CA relevant player input.

If it becomes apparent to other players at the table that said player consistently changes his character's personality to get out of trouble or avoid danger then I think that would most likely to be read as "cheating."  However that is an aesthetic issue (Social Contract level stuff) that would need to be ironed out.  This would be akin to dropping a player off a team in Gamist play because they constantly blunder causing your side to "lose."

Let me know if I have answered your question to your satisfaction Callan!
Title: Re: [Middle Earth - home brew] - A first, another group with the same play style!
Post by: Caldis on January 02, 2006, 03:26:51 PM
Quote from: Silmenume on January 02, 2006, 04:26:38 AM
Merry Christmas to you as well, Caldis!

I apologize if I came off as cranky in my previous post, but I just changed meds and my head is still literally spinning.

No prob, my comment was short and off handed may have seemed more inflammatory then it was intended.

Quote
The most notable is the notion that one MUST be forced into acting in a very specific manner in order to "fulfill" the CA requisites.  While I can similarities with mechanics that, say, bring the Address of Premise front and center in an unavoidable way I do not think the example you presented functions on the same general principle.  I.e., bringing the central game process inescapably to the fore and dropping it square in the players' lap.  IOW I don't see your example as an instance of system compelling the player to make a CA relevant decision, but rather said mechanic is an instance which removed/negated the player's decision.  To my understanding, such an act clearly fits the definition of "player deprotagonization."

One isnt forced into acting in such a manner one has accepted this restriction to their choices when they created the character.  It's the same as accepting that your character may be killed if he enters combat due to a bad dice roll, what could be more deprotagonizing than that?  A player can make a decision to swing a sword in your game but he doesnt get the right to decide that it hits and chops off someones arm, similarly a player can decide in gurps they want to do something contrary to their outlined personality but they cant just do it they have to make the roll.  It's what is accepted in the game the player expects to have to take that limit into consideration and if the dice roll against him then he has to come up with another option.  The mechanic enforces taking that aspect into consideration, just as your group takes into consideration Tolkien and realism.

This is not a problem for sim because that is the heart of what sim is, getting the play right. Accepting constructive denial as Ron put it in one of the last few posts in the GNS forum (http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=17334.0).  The dream is created before the play even begins it has nothing to do with their decisions creating it, the dream is simulated in play.  In your case it's Tolkiens world, Sim play is focused on getting that play right, making it like Tolkiens world or maybe more like being someone in Tolkiens world.  The players agree to accept limitations on their actions to make it so.  In gurps the player accepts that if he takes the greed disadvantage he may have to accept being bound by it in play.  Notice my first example where the gm didnt require a roll since the aspect was being taken into consideration, that's what I'm talking about.


Consider what you do roll for in your game.  Combat is the only thing I've seen you mention but there may be others I'm unsure.  If it was all just players creating a dream through their decisions then why bring dice rolls into combat?  Why not just let them decide how the combat turns out?  If it's just to provide uncertainty why not roll just to see which side wins?  Typically Sim games deny players the opportunity to make the decision of what happens and enforce considerations of elements like skill, weapons, range, armor types, and all the other factors that go into combat.  Are these remnants of gamist design? no they are constructive denial in action, it's getting that combat right that's important.  Those elements hold meaning in and of themselves and they must be respected.


QuoteI don't buy that argument at all.  While all mechanics can be said to be a subset of Social Contract what your statement implies by extension is that Social Contract level issues can be handled by a system of 3rd party decision making.  If I don't like player A because he's hitting on my girlfriend I can resolve that by going to page 18 in the 4th addenda rules appendix and make him stop if I roll a better than a 15 on a d20.

No that's not what I've said at all.  What I've said is that your group has accepted the idea that removing players who dont live up to your standards is socially acceptable.  Whether it's because they dont have the same agenda or there not on the same page with you as to what the game is about the answer is the same.  In other groups dropping people is not socially accepted, therefore they have adopted other means to get people on the same page,  personality mechanics being one of them.
I can see some of the examples of people dropped being related to CA differences but many of them dont seem to be.


QuoteGee whiz!  I mean if someone is playing Darth Vader, he's dying, his son is standing over him and he says, "I want to see you with my own eyes," is some one going to point out a personality mechanic and say, "You can't play Vader that way!  He's evil to the core!  Take that back and do something completely evil!"

Having Vader make such an unusual choice makes for interesting play.  Yes there are norms of behavior, but they are not straight jackets nor are they programs.

See Jay that's a narrativist choice right there. Being free to make that statement is narrativism, developing the story to the point where he makes that choice is narrativism.  It's not sim.  Sim is making that choice if it's a plausible outcome of what's happened before or if it's a part of the story structure being simulated, and it can be regulated by personality mechanics but it doesnt have to be.  The main thing is that what we know of Vader is respected he doesnt just turn on a dime, several scenes and much of Luke's dialog is focused on Vader not really being as evil as he has always appeared.   

QuoteNow let me give an example of player where a certain type of behavior might be expected from a player and what could happen if said player opts out of the culturally expected behavior.  Let's say I am the champion of barbarian village.  I am the baddest, toughest, bravest warrior in the tribe.  My character has fought his way to this position through many a bloody and gruesome battles.  I am called forth by circumstances to represent my chieftain in a trial by battle.  As a player I know this foe is a virtual death machine.  I should have the ability as a play to choose not to engage in battle.  However – this does not mean such an action would not be read as cowardice or treason and I have no reason to believe that my character would not be humiliated, executed outright, exiled or what not.

That is a possible way of handling it a personality mechanic that forced the battle is another, what about sim makes you claim that only one of these options is the correct one?  Where in any of what Ron has written on sim is support for your suggestion that only one way is possible?  Given that he expressly lists two subtypes, high concept and purist for system?


I really think you are a strong advocate for your style of play, but I dont think that style of play is indicative of all sim play.  What other games have you played that you would identify as sim? 


Quote
Title: Re: [Middle Earth - home brew] - A first, another group with the same play style!
Post by: Callan S. on January 02, 2006, 08:53:57 PM
Hi Jay,

I don't think it's deprotagonisation occurs in narrativism if, in advance of making an address, the rule is made that certain address types can't be made. Like if I'm playing Ghandi and the rule is I can only use peaceful protest, that's fine. However, if that rule isn't agreed to in advance it's different. If I have Ghandi go violent and someone says "No, that's no good and has to change, he's non violent!", I'll tell them they can go stuff themselves in no uncertain terms!! Surely you can't have a problem with this? If you don't feel you can agree to a 'peaceful protest only' type rule, then you don't play that game. If you feel you can stick to it, you do play?

I have to wonder if your actual problem is with people who will calvin ball terms along with the mechanics which help them do so. In these cases you didn't agree to a personality mechanic restriction, but the other person uses slimy tactics to try and enforce that restriction on you. It might be cutting to the core a bit, but perhaps you see personality mechanics as ripe for abuse?

BTW, are we staying on topic enough here? Has this sort of discussion come up/will come up with the other group?
Title: Re: [Middle Earth - home brew] - A first, another group with the same play style!
Post by: Christopher Kubasik on January 02, 2006, 09:32:22 PM
Hi all,

Touching back on the original post, here's my question:

Jay, what is the "interview" process like?

Please, tell me, what happens? How does it happen? What sort of metric is used to determine who is in and who is out? Who's there when it happens? Who gets to decide?


I'm fasincated.

Christopher
Title: Re: [Middle Earth - home brew] - A first, another group with the same play style
Post by: Supplanter on January 02, 2006, 10:05:29 PM
Quote from: Silmenume on December 25, 2005, 07:40:56 AM
Yes it does, if I am reading you correctly.  What it signifies is that for the players who are considering choosing such a skill they had best be able to perform that skill effectively in play because the mechanic will not be substituted for actual player ability.  For example, the GM of Myranus clearly stated if that a player wished to use a bow in game as a weapon then he had best be knowledgeable about bows because what the player brings to the table will be the basis of the determination of the Character's effectiveness with the bow.  He said that he has told players in the past that they should at the very least read some books on bows if they play to be effective with the bow in game.

Wow. With *bows*? THAT'S hardcore. I was thinking the "pig" skills would be things like "Fast Talk" and "Courtly Graces" and such. What about other combat skills? If you want to be a swordsman do you need to read books etc. on swords? Now I'm wondering two things: 1) What ISN'T a pig skill? 2) Why not? That is, the criteria for "pigginess" are apparently a lot broader than I thought. So what is the dividing line between Pig and . . . "Kosher"?

Let me stress that I don't have an a priori problem with the approach. If Swordsmanship is a pig skill, so be it! I even see the advantages from a "right to dream" perspective - it's one expression of the "responsibility TOWARD the Dream" flipside, isnt' it? It's also an approach to distributed credibility specifically tailored to support Sim, don't you think? That is, if boning up on bows actually earns you credibility in-game. Does the GM defer to a player's pig knowledge? IOW, can I get successes or bonuses toward same by making authoritative statements about bow capabilities?

Can I add directly to the fiction (Director stance stuff) by using my bow knowledge to make fiat statements? e.g. "They can't reach us from here. I've seen that kind of bow in action and I know." and it becomes true because I said it? Or is that kind of thing still GM territory?

Sticking with bows and pigginess, what effort of mine as a player earns me what benefit in play?

I'm rambling, but this is fascinating stuff. Fascinating. Because I'm thinking of how it seems like it flouts the assumptions behind a particular class of complaint/GM advice in "trad" sim/incoherent designs. The classic example is presented as: "You're the GM. One of your players is a martial artist. Here's how you deal with THE PROBLEM of him trying to overwhelm you with his knowledge in play." (e.g. he describes some super-cool move that should foreclose any response you personally can think of. My own solution to this problem was always, "Cool. Now tell me what a competent enemy's response should be. Cause that's what your opponent does.")

It sounds like your particular social contract is saying, "Problem?? No, that's good stuff!" (For local values of reinforcing the texture of the fiction as opposed to hijacking play, I assume.)

All of which is a longwinded way of saying, Do tell!

Best,


Jim
Title: Re: [Middle Earth - home brew] - A first, another group with the same play style
Post by: Silmenume on January 03, 2006, 06:37:15 AM
Hi Caldis,

I'm going to save my response to you for another post.  I hope you don't mind.

Hey Callan,

Quote from: Callan S. on January 02, 2006, 08:53:57 PMLike if I'm playing Ghandi and the rule is I can only use peaceful protest, that's fine. However, if that rule isn't agreed to in advance it's different. If I have Ghandi go violent and someone says "No, that's no good and has to change, he's non violent!", I'll tell them they can go stuff themselves in no uncertain terms!! Surely you can't have a problem with this? If you don't feel you can agree to a 'peaceful protest only' type rule, then you don't play that game. If you feel you can stick to it, you do play?

I see the distinction you are making, but from a bricoleur's point of view such "rules" are an inherent problem.  See, the very nature of bricolage is such that the very "rules" (governing the interactions of the objects – Ghandi is peaceful) themselves can and more importantly will evolve over time as a result of the bricoleur's efforts.  Even if the players/bricoleurs are not mindfully seeking to "change the rules."  This morphing/evolution of the "rules" is an integral part of the bricolage/Sim process.  To legislate an immutable/unwavering "rule" of behavior is to "freeze up" a part of the Sim process – i.e., it weakens the effective expression of the Sim CA.

I am not saying that one cannot create a Character who is "said to be" extraordinarily peaceable, but to say that such a trait (or any personality trait for that matter) is unfailing in its expression is not only problematic from a human personality/condition point of view, but is generally antithetical to the bricolage process.

How is one known to be peaceable?  By acting peaceable in a situation where many if not most people would resort to violence or hatred.  Do this often enough and others will recognize and label said individual as peaceable.  Thus the characteristic of "peaceable" is recognized, via said player's actions, by the other players at the table and not something that is legislated into play by mechanics.  (By the way I know that I am not explaining myself well, but I am doing the best that I under the circumstances.)

However, please note, that I am not advocating that such "breeches" of character should slide by without in game repercussions (entailments).  Quite the contrary!  A player who does make that breech in the example that you provided should understand at the outside that there will be "a price to pay," (consequences/entailments) within the SIS for said character.  This "cost" is what makes such choices so difficult and why they need to be so carefully weighed by the acting player (as well as just plain interesting for the rest of us players at the table!)

So to your question – "Surely you can't have a problem with this?"  My answer is, "Yes – and stop calling me Shirley!"

Quote from: Callan S. on January 02, 2006, 08:53:57 PMI have to wonder if your actual problem is with people who will calvin ball terms along with the mechanics which help them do so. In these cases you didn't agree to a personality mechanic restriction, but the other person uses slimy tactics to try and enforce that restriction on you. It might be cutting to the core a bit, but perhaps you see personality mechanics as ripe for abuse?

That's a great question, and I hope that my answer helps illuminate my thoughts some.  It's not that my problem lies with that personality mechanics are ripe for abuse (though I do think that is a distinct possibility in play) but rather their very nature is antithetical to Sim expression.  To the same extent that firm, fixed rules are crucial to Gamist expression; firm, fixed personality rules are antithetical to a similar extent to Simulationist expression. 

I know that sounds very odd, but please take a moment to consider how bricolage works before dashing off a rebuttal!  I'm not implying that you are rash or anything like that, but that what I am suggesting is a little difficult to make that conceptual shift if  one comes at it from a rules-first point of view.  You see, bricolage makes rules!  It also bends, folds, spindles and mutilates rules in the process!  To drop a static point in there somewhere will water down that bricolage/Sim process.  From a certain point of view what is referred to as Calvin Balling in Gamism is acceptable in Sim, but it had better be supportable via the history of the SIS somewhere or it will be regarded as "cheating!"

QuoteHas this sort of discussion come up/will come up with the other group?

I have yet to play in the Myranis group so I don't know for sure.  But I do know that the GM did say that he wished on occasion that mechanics (and I interpreted that as resolution mechanics) would sometimes, "just disappear."  IOW the play and the consequences of play trump mechanical resolution systems which in his opinion (and mine) can interfere with (i.e., degrade Sim) expression.  When we expressed similar sentiments I do know that both the GM and the player present at the interview from that group practically jumped out of their seats in joy.  Other than that I have no other data to offer at the moment.  I would like to note that one player from my group is making the commitment to join the Myranis group and I am eagerly awaiting the feed back!

Hello Christopher,

Quote from: Christopher Kubasik on January 02, 2006, 09:32:22 PMJay, what is the "interview" process like?

Please, tell me, what happens? How does it happen? What sort of metric is used to determine who is in and who is out? Who's there when it happens? Who gets to decide?

In our interview with the Myranis GM, he had his one remaining player join in the process.  Apparently over the last several months the other three players moved out of state for various reasons and this was the impetus for his search of new players.  As there was only one player remaining I don't know if he would have had others present or not.  I should note that the GM and the player were living together and had a relationship, so I don't know if the presence of the player was an exception to the Social Contract of the group or just an extension of their own personal out of game relationship.  I don't know if the decision is the GM's only, the GM and his life partner/player or something that is typically open to the whole group.

How the introduction came about was a little odd.  A player who did not "make the grade" in our game was interviewing with the Myranis GM and player and not only suggested us to him, but also made the initial introductions via email.  I must say, "What a phenomenal good sport."  After an initial round of emails we set up the GM of Myranis overtly talked of an "interview."  He invited my GM, who invited me along, to go meet with this upstart GM ( ;oP ) understanding that we would not be playing but "meeting each other" for the intentions of determining if coming to his game would be a good idea.  Apparently this interview process was a regular part of how he managed his game.

As far as the metric by which he decided who was compatible with his group's play style and who was not – I am not certain.  Truth be told, my GM came to the interview with the intention of "raiding" players from the Myranis group.  <G>  Nevertheless a time was set and my GM and I arrived at their apartment.  We were met at the door and led to the game room.  It was plainly obvious that the game room was a place of pride and importance to those we met.  They went to great effort to decorate the place and hats off to them for their efforts.  The entire room was "blacked" in some sort of material, including the ceiling.  Two sets of specially constructed soft lights were at each end of the room to provide comfortable lighting.  There were several glass cabinets of miniatures as well as a wall covered in weapons and replicas of various sorts.  The GM had a monitor and keyboard at his station for music and sound effects.  There was a decently sized flat table in the middle of the room with comfortable seating for about 6 people.

Introductions were made and we started off on the easiest topic of conversation – the person who made the email introductions...and things just "went from there."  In this particular case, I think that we had a player in common was important because it made it possible for the Myranis GM to evaluate our take on said player and match it to his impressions of the player.  Near as I recall there was some GM "strutting" in both camps, but it was good-natured.  As more and more experiences were shared regarding GMing styles and techniques it became increasingly obvious that both groups shared the same CA though we did have differences in our local aesthetics.  It was both fascinating and exciting.

I have no idea how the Myranis GM "fired unsuitable players," but however he did it, it was tactful and carefully handled as he claimed that he continues to remain friends with those friends of the he had "fired" from his game.  We never got the chance to ask then and I have not had the opportunity to ask since.

Hi Jim!

Quote from: Supplanter on January 02, 2006, 10:05:29 PMWow. With *bows*? THAT'S hardcore.

I too think it is "hardcore," i.e., that such play ought to be regarded as hardcore Sim with respect to the Big Model.

QuoteNow I'm wondering two things: 1) What ISN'T a pig skill? 2) Why not? That is, the criteria for "pigginess" are apparently a lot broader than I thought. So what is the dividing line between Pig and . . . "Kosher"?

I am very embarrassed to say that I don't recall!  However, as a friend of mine is going to give the game a whirl I will ask him to ask the GM.

QuoteLet me stress that I don't have an a priori problem with the approach. If Swordsmanship is a pig skill, so be it!

  • I even see the advantages from a "right to dream" perspective - it's one expression of the "responsibility TOWARD the Dream" flipside, isnt' it?
  • It's also an approach to distributed credibility specifically tailored to support Sim, don't you think?
  • That is, if boning up on bows actually earns you credibility in-game. Does the GM defer to a player's pig knowledge?
  • IOW, can I get successes or bonuses toward same by making authoritative statements about bow capabilities?

Formatting altered for ease of addressing.


QuoteCan I add directly to the fiction (Director stance stuff) by using my bow knowledge to make fiat statements? e.g. "They can't reach us from here. I've seen that kind of bow in action and I know." and it becomes true because I said it? Or is that kind of thing still GM territory?

Yes, though there might be other extenuating circumstances that the player may not know about and must be flexible regarding.  However, this not only happens reasonably frequently, but on a certain level it is necessary in order to "plan ahead" or think "tactically."  That a player can make such assertions is a demonstration of the regularity of the Dream as a whole, it also allows said player to "strut his stuff," as it were!  Yet, while it does happen more than one might think, there is a rhythm to when this option is available and when it isn't.  Just for clarification's sake, I should also note that such statements are always subject to the Lumpley Principle.

QuoteSticking with bows and pigginess, what effort of mine as a player earns me what benefit in play?

Knowing the rate of fire of bows reduces the risk of fumbling when firing rapidly or just reducing penalties to hit when shooting very quickly.  Knowing how bows are made can mean being able to make a bow in the wild or crafting a bow of quality.  Knowing how to maintain and care for bows.  Simple things like allowing for the ballistic flight of the arrow gains bonuses to hit and range.  Accounting for the energy loss to the arrow due to drag in flight grants increased likelihood of actually hitting the target or gains you a better chance of ranging properly.  Understanding tactically that one could use a bow for suppressing effects to allow melee fights to close.  Knowing to unstring a bow when not in use preserves its operational life span (thus reducing penalties for wear and tear).  Knowing that one could introduce noise suppressors to the bowstring can make you harder to find.  Knowing how bow strings are made can make it much easier to replace broken or otherwise non-functional strings.  Knowing the difference between flight arrows, sheaf arrows and under what circumstances they are employed gains certain situation bonuses to hit, to damage or arguing against an arrow getting through one's own armor.  Knowing how to make a self-bow can mean the difference between replacing a bow when in the wilderness and having to wait to return to a settlement.  Knowing the properties of different woods can make a difference in whether success is achieved when crafting a bow.  Etc.

QuoteBecause I'm thinking of how it seems like it flouts the assumptions behind a particular class of complaint/GM advice in "trad" sim/incoherent designs. The classic example is presented as: "You're the GM. One of your players is a martial artist. Here's how you deal with THE PROBLEM of him trying to overwhelm you with his knowledge in play." (e.g. he describes some super-cool move that should foreclose any response you personally can think of. My own solution to this problem was always, "Cool. Now tell me what a competent enemy's response should be. Cause that's what your opponent does.")

It sounds like your particular social contract is saying, "Problem?? No, that's good stuff!" (For local values of reinforcing the texture of the fiction as opposed to hijacking play, I assume.)

You assume correctly!  The proviso being that it is reasonable for said Character to have such knowledge/skill.  This is exactly where the players create and expand the Dream!  It is not mimicry, but creation!  It is not mechanical modeling, but player protagonism!

I was just concluding this post when I realize that this is just the exact opposite of Callan's arguments about personality mechanics.  In Sim the players decide how to run their individual Characters, but the nature of the world is open to negotiation via the introduction of new "facts" as well as protection/reinforcement through player interjection.  "Hey!  You just can't dive off a 150 foot cliff onto boulders and just walk away!"
Title: Re: [Middle Earth - home brew] - A first, another group with the same play style!
Post by: Callan S. on January 03, 2006, 11:02:29 PM
QuoteTo legislate an immutable/unwavering "rule" of behavior is to "freeze up" a part of the Sim process – i.e., it weakens the effective expression of the Sim CA.
I'm glad you said this, because I totally agree. Except I see it as a feature, not a bug. It's a creative focus - yup, that part of the sim process is frozen - because this game will be about exploring issues other than that.

It may be too much stick though, not enough carrot. Personality rules which propose a certain character reaction (like rage), with a reward as an incentive is probably better.

QuoteIt's not that my problem lies with that personality mechanics are ripe for abuse (though I do think that is a distinct possibility in play) but rather their very nature is antithetical to Sim expression.  To the same extent that firm, fixed rules are crucial to Gamist expression; firm, fixed personality rules are antithetical to a similar extent to Simulationist expression. 

I know that sounds very odd, but please take a moment to consider how bricolage works before dashing off a rebuttal!  I'm not implying that you are rash or anything like that, but that what I am suggesting is a little difficult to make that conceptual shift if  one comes at it from a rules-first point of view.  You see, bricolage makes rules!  It also bends, folds, spindles and mutilates rules in the process!
Okay, understanding you a bit more. And I think I understand a sim address. It's the players active declaration of a rule that determines how part of the world works. But I think your treating book rules as if really their just the same as setting. For example:
Setting: Sally's hair is red.
Book rule: Sally's hair is red.

The former is open to change - if you pour blue ink on her head, her hair changes colour. With the book rule in place, her hair doesn't change colour - it remains red. I'm pretty sure at first this rubs a simulationist back the wrong way - "There's no causal reason - her hair just remains red? Regardless of all the other stuff in the universe? What if we nuked her/atomised her - would she even exist so that her hair is still red? What!? It would! That's freakin' rediculous!"

I think if you are treating rules as if they are setting, this is why - the book rules create causal impossiblities. Thus, instead of being treated as unbending (which just screws with your agenda), they become treated as setting and open to bending, folding and spindling.

And that's all I've got, so I'm going to bow out on this issue (hope it wasn't a waste of time for you or other forge members). I think sim play can and probably needs to benefit from the structure rules give. But this is a difficult problem to overcome, should you want to. All I can think of is that there were some threads in the past on 'creative denial' & simulationist play. Anyone else got links to that?
Title: Re: [Middle Earth - home brew] - A first, another group with the same play style
Post by: contracycle on January 04, 2006, 04:10:36 AM
Quote
I see the distinction you are making, but from a bricoleur's point of view such "rules" are an inherent problem.  See, the very nature of bricolage is such that the very "rules" (governing the interactions of the objects – Ghandi is peaceful) themselves can and more importantly will evolve over time as a result of the bricoleur's efforts.  Even if the players/bricoleurs are not mindfully seeking to "change the rules."  This morphing/evolution of the "rules" is an integral part of the bricolage/Sim process.  To legislate an immutable/unwavering "rule" of behavior is to "freeze up" a part of the Sim process – i.e., it weakens the effective expression of the Sim CA.

I don't agree rules are an inherent problem to the bricoleur; there is nothing about this process of implicit and impressionist change that requires that all things be changeable.  In fact I would suggest that contradicts the idea that objects formed or altered by bricolage are then whole in their own right.  For this to be true they must have implications of their own, consequences to other objects, all of which is to say: they impose limits on what else can be done.  They construct rules of permissable future change.

The point of establishing such a statement about a character goes far beyond that they are "said to be" X, but in fact are known to be X, have been observed to be X from the past.  It is one of the properties of this object.  That does not imply that the object is unchangeable; but it seems, the mention of "entailments" related to "violations" assumes too much of the gamist use of personality mechanics as a punitive measure, rather than a sim-appropriate use for portrayal.  Wanting to change a character hitherto, and correctly, labelled as awlays peaceful is quite valid if carried out during the course of play - and this does not necessarily contradict existing mechanical statements if for example they can be "bought off" by some action of system.  And it does not imply any punitive measure are required unless such adherence is part of the social contract - which it will not be among Simmers, I don't think.

Quote
That's a great question, and I hope that my answer helps illuminate my thoughts some.  It's not that my problem lies with that personality mechanics are ripe for abuse (though I do think that is a distinct possibility in play) but rather their very nature is antithetical to Sim expression.  To the same extent that firm, fixed rules are crucial to Gamist expression; firm, fixed personality rules are antithetical to a similar extent to Simulationist expression.

I fear thats an overextension to an illogcial degree - the presence of personality mechanics does not imply they are necessarily immutable.  I suggest that it is far more common to have some kind of escape clause rule about possible changes than it is to find a system asserting that a choice once made can never be altered by anyone or any act of play.

QuoteI know that sounds very odd, but please take a moment to consider how bricolage works before dashing off a rebuttal!  I'm not implying that you are rash or anything like that, but that what I am suggesting is a little difficult to make that conceptual shift if  one comes at it from a rules-first point of view.  You see, bricolage makes rules!  It also bends, folds, spindles and mutilates rules in the process!  To drop a static point in there somewhere will water down that bricolage/Sim process.  From a certain point of view what is referred to as Calvin Balling in Gamism is acceptable in Sim, but it had better be supportable via the history of the SIS somewhere or it will be regarded as "cheating!"

No I disagree; Calvinballing is an inherently dishonest act and I cannot see how this can be construed to be important to sim.  That would make sim the domain of the best liar.  I would also think its directly contradictory to the general process of bricolage on which you base your argument, because calvinballing is the construction of claims that are NOT based on the properties of the objects of their history of manipulation in play, but instead on the opportunistic desire of ther play to achieve some goal by rationalisation.
Title: Re: [Middle Earth - home brew] - A first, another group with the same play style
Post by: beingfrank on January 04, 2006, 06:43:21 AM
Quote from: contracycle on January 04, 2006, 04:10:36 AMNo I disagree; Calvinballing is an inherently dishonest act and I cannot see how this can be construed to be important to sim.  That would make sim the domain of the best liar.  I would also think its directly contradictory to the general process of bricolage on which you base your argument, because calvinballing is the construction of claims that are NOT based on the properties of the objects of their history of manipulation in play, but instead on the opportunistic desire of ther play to achieve some goal by rationalisation.

I was going to ask a similar question on the Pig skills.

What's to stop someone lying to fake expertise?  I can be a damn good bullshitter.  I could unscrupulously fake an expertise in something to gain advantage.

Or less brokenly, what happens when there's two experts and they disagree?  When it's something like bows, it's reasonably concrete.  If I were playing in such a game, I'd probably want a Pig skill related to the functioning of the criminal justice system, or psychology, since those are areas that I'm both interested in, and possess some expertise.  But someone with a similar expertise could have very different views and dispute the statements of authority I might make because they fundamentally disagree with the particularly theories I subscribe to.  Who decides who has the authority?  And if my view is rejected, on something I consider I do well enough to take as a Pig skill in a game that explicitly takes knowledge from real life to inform game reality, that's probably going to ruin the game for me.  (I may be mean spirited on this.)

Or take something even more obviously controversial, like history.  There are major splits in the study of history over how things work or should be interpreted.  And I'm sure that even in the concrete example of bows, there are experts with different views who can have major spats over exactly how something was made or used.

I'm not trying to knock the technique, just see what it's limitations are so I understand it.  Basically what happens when someone lies, and what happens when there are multiple experts?  Both come down to the question of who decides what is sufficient expertise and what is the right expertise?
Title: Re: [Middle Earth - home brew] - A first, another group with the same play style
Post by: Silmenume on January 06, 2006, 05:55:36 AM
Hey there Caldis, now I reply to you!

Quote from: Caldis on January 02, 2006, 03:26:51 PMThis is not a problem for sim because that is the heart of what sim is, getting the play right. Accepting constructive denial as Ron put it in one of the last few posts in the GNS forum (http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=17334.0).  The dream is created before the play even begins it has nothing to do with their decisions creating it, the dream is simulated in play.

Red highlighting added.

With all due respect – that is utterly, completely and shockingly – wrong.  (To me, that is – and what do I know?)  What is created in play is the Dream – via player input.  You statement describes everything that is wrong confused and just plain backward with regards to the understanding of Sim.  The play you describe is Zilchplay – as in the Players' input amounts to Zilch to what is created.  The model is explicitly clear that the action of player creation is expressed during the confrontation of conflict.  Going back to the Lumpley Principle, if one or all defers all credibility to the mechanics then the players are not deciding, and by extension the totality of the model, anything – Zilch.  Addressing conflict is the dynamo of role-play.  That which does not touch on conflict is Color – patina.  Color is certainly an experience multiplier, but it must act on something else; and that something else is the players' addressing of conflict.  If all (or all the important/major) conflict credibility assignments are deferred to the mechanics then the players have deferred all their credibility and hence deferred their all input.  By the Model they have become Color generators – and that play style, by way of the Model, falls squarely into the category of Zilchplay.

One cannot have the Dream before play, because that, by definition, falls outside the Model.  The Dream does not; nay, cannot exist outside the players' efforts.  Something else might exist outside of Exploration, but it is most certainly cannot be the Dream.  That's foundational to the Model; human beings sharing imaginings.  Just as there is no Narrativism if the Theme is fixed prior to play, there is no Simulationism if the Dream is fixed prior to play.  Now, there may be the source material upon which the Dream will use as seed, but that source material will be altered during the course of play if the players are protagonized and you can't have CA expression without protagonized players.

Now, what you described may be what is called as Sim and what I am describing may ultimately find another name, but I firmly assert this – What you describe and what I describe are as proudly incompatible and different in play as Gam/Nar are from what you described.  The difference being simply this – protagonism regarding conflict (G/N/and the type of play I describe which I believe is Sim) and deprotagonism regarding conflict (Zilchplay/the type of play you described above/what is currently called Sim).  Those two divisions are utterly incompatible and rightly so.

QuoteNo that's not what I've said at all.  What I've said is that your group has accepted the idea that removing players who dont live up to your standards is socially acceptable.  Whether it's because they dont have the same agenda or there not on the same page with you as to what the game is about the answer is the same.  In other groups dropping people is not socially accepted, therefore they have adopted other means to get people on the same page,  personality mechanics being one of them.

Red highlighting added.

First of all, let me apologize if I misrepresented you or mistook your statement.  That was not my intention!

I'm trying not to just gainsay your positions as much as possible, but again I'm going to have to disagree with your arguments.  While I do agree that groups that don't share compatible CA's often have issues with removing such players, but your conclusion is just a glaring example of the Geek Social Fallacy in operation.  The personality mechanics don't make the game any more functional for the mismatched player, rather they function to muzzle said player's CA expression thus making the whole game experience more enjoyable for the remaining players.  Again this is the Big Model 101.  You can't "force" players to engage a CA they aren't interested in expressing.  On top of the essays, the various threads that have popped up on the failure to "sneak up on CA" bears out the idea that CA cannot be enforced on a resisting/disinterested player.  Such tactics (techniques) are muzzles on the unwilling and straightjackets on the willing with regards to Sim CA expression.  One simply cannot "technique-away" a social contract level issue.  At best this type of solution is cowardly as it defers the attention away from the true problem, and at worst it's just outright dishonest as in we know we have a problem player but it'll work if we can just stifle the problematic player in a way they won't recognize.

QuoteSee Jay that's a narrativist choice right there.

Not in the least – at least not with regards to role-play.  It is the player making the decision who determines if a problem is a Narrativist choice or not.  Like Ron's sample scene in the Narrativism essay, one cannot determine CA from transcript.  Only from the players actions and reactions that make, express and support CA that CA can be seen.  Thus there are no "Narrativist choices," only players who address problems from a Narrativist point of view – but that takes lots of data to figure out; at least one full conflict and reward cycle.  One cannot compare decisions made while Exploring (during role-play) with those decisions seen in fixed texts because the social environment where the player decisions were made are available for examination.  To make such an assertion is category error that only serves to confuse the argument, just as it has here.

Quote from: Ron Edwards from the Narrativism essayThe real question: after reading the transcript and recognizing it as a story, what can be said about the Creative Agenda that was involved during the role-playing? The answer is, absolutely nothing.

Quote from: Caldis on January 02, 2006, 03:26:51 PMWhat other games have you played that you would identify as sim?

Until about a few weeks ago, I would say that I had come across only one Sim facilitating game.  I fully admit that my experiences are very limited, but I have read and skimmed through a number of systems and they all suffered from that same basic conceptual problems.  Their insistence upon Story.  Their overwhelming resolution systems that suffer from two basic problems.  Their sheer crushing weight, and that they are framed basically as task resolution systems.  Sim is not about story and task resolution systems confound the Sim CA as much as conflict resolution systems do Gamism and task resolution systems do Narrativism.  Any game structured around one or both of these memes can and does confound the Sim CA expression.  I have not come across a published game design yet that has avoided both these common barriers to effective Sim expression.

Quote from: Callan S. on January 03, 2006, 11:02:29 PM
QuoteTo legislate an immutable/unwavering "rule" of behavior is to "freeze up" a part of the Sim process – i.e., it weakens the effective expression of the Sim CA.
I'm glad you said this, because I totally agree. Except I see it as a feature, not a bug. It's a creative focus - yup, that part of the sim process is frozen - because this game will be about exploring issues other than that.

It may be too much stick though, not enough carrot. Personality rules which propose a certain character reaction (like rage), with a reward as an incentive is probably better.

It's exactly like a Narrativist facilitating system which rewards a player for voluntarily losing a conflict!  You want to encourage players to exhibit certain behaviors, but still leave them the freedom to choose to do so.  That's a technique that leaves player protagonism intact!  The stick deprotagonizes the players, and that's never healthy for CA expression!  (Or enough to be close enough to be never – there are many kinds of players out there!)

QuoteOkay, understanding you a bit more. And I think I understand a sim address.

Right on!  I apologize if I sounded a bit condescending.  You are right, you do sound like you do have a strong and functional grasp of Sim address.  (I hope that didn't sound condescending!  Eeesh!  Can I put my foot in my mouth more often without getting athlete's mouth?)

QuoteBut I think your treating book rules as if really their just the same as setting.

That is my point!  Yippie!!!  Not that you necessarily agree, but you have seen what I have been trying to get at!

QuoteThe former is open to change - if you pour blue ink on her head, her hair changes colour. With the book rule in place, her hair doesn't change colour - it remains red. I'm pretty sure at first this rubs a simulationist back the wrong way - "There's no causal reason - her hair just remains red? Regardless of all the other stuff in the universe? What if we nuked her/atomised her - would she even exist so that her hair is still red? What!? It would! That's freakin' rediculous!"

I think if you are treating rules as if they are setting, this is why - the book rules create causal impossiblities. Thus, instead of being treated as unbending (which just screws with your agenda), they become treated as setting and open to bending, folding and spindling.

EXACTLY!!!  It's not the old "golden rule," of, "throw out rules that don't work."  Rather don't "throw out rules," but bend, twist, spindle, fold – through play – the rules because they aren't fixed!  In fact they are part of what is open to negotiation through play.  The rules should reflect the Setting and as Setting is open to negotiation thus the rules must be too as a reflection of said Setting.  If rules are fixed then you do get contradictions between Setting and mechanics and traceable to institutional inertia as well as the "conventional wisdom" contained in almost all so called Sim facilitating games.  The relative importance of Setting and mechanics in Sim are actually flip-flopped from the conventional wisdom.

Yes, one needs "published" mechanics at the beginning, but they are only "suggestions/seeds" and should only function as a starting point from which the subsequent game (Exploration) will blossom.

QuoteAnd that's all I've got, so I'm going to bow out on this issue (hope it wasn't a waste of time for you or other forge members).

Don't go!  You've got it!!!  ...and you didn't waste my time!  You gave me much needed hope and refreshed my weakening resolve!

QuoteI think sim play can and probably needs to benefit from the structure rules give.  But this is a difficult problem to overcome, should you want to.

I fully agree that Sim does benefit from the "structure" rules give, but it needs to be understood and communicated that the rules are structures open to altering, folding, etc., and not immutable truths!  It is a terribly difficult problem to overcome and I am (still) hoping to defeat – but the resistance is staggeringly stiff.

I'm unfamiliar with the exact term "creative denial" but I do know that Chris' various threads do touch on what I suspect you mean by "creative denial."

Hi contracycle,

Quote from: contracycle on January 04, 2006, 04:10:36 AMI don't agree rules are an inherent problem to the bricoleur; there is nothing about this process of implicit and impressionist change that requires that all things be changeable.  In fact I would suggest that contradicts the idea that objects formed or altered by bricolage are then whole in their own right.  For this to be true they must have implications of their own, consequences to other objects, all of which is to say: they impose limits on what else can be done.  They construct rules of permissable future change.

Let me see if I can work through some of your arguments.  (Where's Chris when I need him?!  He could do a much better job arguing on this level than I ever could hope to!)  Your drawing the hypothetical conclusion to my argument of objects formed or altered by bricolage are not "whole in their own right" is correct.  Such objects can be broken down and employed in other objects in parts.  The iron that Chris used in his threads is a prime example of this.  While the iron can be used as a localized heating source rather than a device to remove wrinkles from clothes, it can also be broken apart and the heating element used in another item that actually cools!  Such as propane fed, gas flame powered refrigerators that are employed in typical motor homes.  On the whole though, you are fairly correct in that the inherent qualities of an object do construct rules of permissible future change.  However, like in my example of the heating element torn from the iron it is still used to create localized heat, but it is also used as part of a greater overall device that could then be employed to cool or remove heat.  A seeming contradiction, but the basic nature of the iron remains intact, though through complicated means it is doing something that appears to contradict its inherent qualities.

QuoteThe point of establishing such a statement about a character goes far beyond that they are "said to be" X, but in fact are known to be X, have been observed to be X from the past.  It is one of the properties of this object.  That does not imply that the object is unchangeable; but it seems, the mention of "entailments" related to "violations" assumes too much of the gamist use of personality mechanics as a punitive measure, rather than a sim-appropriate use for portrayal.

The problem is that such mechanics would not allow for any change or would certainly remove a player's choice thus leading to deprotagonization with regards the Sim CA.  Using the analogy that Callan had employed above, such mechanics (like personality mechanics) that remove player choice are deprotagonizing – they are sticks and not carrots.  Conversely, rewarding players for employing or exhibiting certain (detrimental) personality traits is protagonizing as it preserves and even rewards(!) player input.

I hope that I read you correctly.  Please let me know if I misinterpreted you.

QuoteI fear thats an overextension to an illogcial degree - the presence of personality mechanics does not imply they are necessarily immutable.  I suggest that it is far more common to have some kind of escape clause rule about possible changes than it is to find a system asserting that a choice once made can never be altered by anyone or any act of play.

Maybe.  But my experience, which is openly admitted to be fairly limited, is that such "rules" are typically given huge amounts of credibility, so much so that failure to adhere to them is typically a "punishable offense."  I agree that personality mechanics are not "necessarily" immutable, as per the Lumpley Principle, but I have not encountered much (any?) flexibility in my experiences.  So I'll just note my disagreement and defer to someone else who has far more role-play experience to offer their own data/experiences with regards to the amount of credibility that is typically given to personality rules/mechanics in so called Sim facilitating games.

QuoteNo I disagree; Calvinballing is an inherently dishonest act and I cannot see how this can be construed to be important to sim.

You misunderstand me.  When I said, "From a certain point of view," I was hoping it to be read in a loose interpretation.  Not the cheating breaking the Social Contract part, but that clever interpretation and under circumstances "alteration" of the interpretation of certain mechanics is not only allowable but encouraged.  Just as the iron can be altered and used in novel ways that even suggest a conflict with its inherent qualities - heat being used to remove heat or the inherent weight of an iron being used to create "negative weight" through the clever use of levers or pulleys.  But if you wish to cleave to the denotative negative connotations of "Calvin Balling" I will defer to your literal and direct reading and cease using the term in (an apparent obfuscatory) analogy.
Title: Re: [Middle Earth - home brew] - A first, another group with the same play style!
Post by: Silmenume on January 06, 2006, 05:56:30 AM
(Blast these post size limits!)

Hi Claire!

Quote from: beingfrank on January 04, 2006, 06:43:21 AMWhat's to stop someone lying to fake expertise?  I can be a damn good bullshitter.  I could unscrupulously fake an expertise in something to gain advantage.

Social Contract?  That there is not "advantage" to be gained in Sim?  That the desire to "gain advantage" is to be expressing a CA other than Sim?  Conversely Sim is not about absolute truths, its about constructing a mutually agreeable "reality" (the Dream) via consensual player input.  There are no "advantages" to be had in the process of creating a synthetic reality.  The process or input is something that is either aesthetically pleasing to those players involved or not.  As has been argued a great number of times on these boards there is no objective "reality" in role-play, just what is plausible to the players.

QuoteOr less brokenly, what happens when there's two experts and they disagree?  When it's something like bows, it's reasonably concrete.  If I were playing in such a game, I'd probably want a Pig skill related to the functioning of the criminal justice system, or psychology, since those are areas that I'm both interested in, and possess some expertise.  But someone with a similar expertise could have very different views and dispute the statements of authority I might make because they fundamentally disagree with the particularly theories I subscribe to.  Who decides who has the authority?

The consensus view, of course.  Remember we are creating a reality that we would like to create, not one that is objectively "true."  However, if a consensus is not possible then we do have Social Contract level problems; perhaps along the similar lines that a "gentleman gamer" and the Hardcore Gamist have incompatible aesthetics sensibilities even though they are both said to share the same broad basic CA.

In the game I play in the GM says he adheres to "reality."  However, many many times he has also stated that there is a certain "heroic romanticism" to the game – and in here is correct.  Thus certain "realities" are rejected in favor of more "flavored" interpretations.  These "flavored" interpretations share many commonalities with those of the source material.  I should note that between games there are frequent and sometimes heated conversations about what is truer to the source material and what is a "reasonable" extrapolation of the source material.  Actually these conversations, in my estimation, amount to about 30-40% of the fun of the game in general!  I also believe that these conversations are vital to Sim play.  Though to be honest I don't know if that is simply due of the nature of our group or not.

QuoteOr take something even more obviously controversial, like history.  There are major splits in the study of history over how things work or should be interpreted.  And I'm sure that even in the concrete example of bows, there are experts with different views who can have major spats over exactly how something was made or used.

Indeed!  And that eventually gets "resolved" via play.  Again, its not about getting something exactly right, but rather getting a place that is mutually aesthetically agreeable to all those involved.  I will state that it is typically the GM who makes that "final call" (barring game stopping objections) during play, though it can and in my experience is frequently discussed in much greater detail before and after the games.  If someone is utterly inflexible in their opinion then there is a problem in their understanding about a mutual consensus, give and take game process.  Its not about "my" versions or understanding of "reality," but the constructed reality we are all contributing and yielding to.

QuoteI'm not trying to knock the technique, just see what it's limitations are so I understand it.  Basically what happens when someone lies, and what happens when there are multiple experts?

If someone lies, that's a Social Contract violation.  There is nothing to be gained in bricolage by lying – unless said person has another CA operating.  I am not saying that Sim is immune to "lying" or that other CA's foster, accommodate or support lying any more than Sim, but rather that one must wonder what lying gets said player in Sim.  Sim is about the creation and reinforcement of the Dream (structure of meaning) – it is impossible given bricolage for lying to gain any advantage.  Not that there aren't lies but that is definitely a Social Contract issue.  IOW since there is nothing to be gained in bricolage through lying then it's a problem the offending player probably in dealing with other people in general.

Conversely, unless the topic is incredibly arcane it is not unusual for someone else at the table to have an at least a passing knowledge of the topic under consideration.  My GM has been GMing his world for close to 25 years and he has had lots of things thrown at him in his time and thus has a reasonable passing knowledge of many, many topics.  However we also understand, as part of the Social Contract, that we are looking more to create the look and feel of Tolkien's Middle Earth than to make an infallible and authoritative dissertation.  I would like to note that bricolage is an inherently "make-do" process, it is anything but exact.   Good enough is good enough; just whatever is being introduced needs to account for the past in some manner (IOW - not conflict with it directly.)

I think that the coming to a mutual agreement on something is very much a part of the Sim CA expression.  If I can make an oxymoronic statement – there are no absolute truths in Sim – it is a consensus effort.  We either agree ahead of time to agree to the call the GM makes in game or the game will fall apart.  If we can't do that, then we have a serious aesthetic and Social Level issue problem.  But isn't that what the Lumpley Principle suggests anyway?

I see that I have rambled some (allot?).  Have I addressed your questions to your satisfaction at all?  Please ask more questions if you need!
Title: Re: [Middle Earth - home brew] - A first, another group with the same play style
Post by: contracycle on January 06, 2006, 08:32:53 AM
I';m afraid that response looks rather confused to me.  At the top you refer to mutual consensus, at the bottom you refer to submission to the arbitration of the GM.  Mutual consensus and submission to arbitration are not at all the same, and this reveals precisely where dishonesty can enter this picture.  I can subvert submission to the GM's authority by insisting on information I don't actually possess and blackmailing you to come to my "consensus".

Secondly, you appear to have assumed that the games CA is universally and inalterably held by all participants at all times, but this is unlikely to be the case.  Everyone exhibits all CA's in various degrees and with varying frequencies.  So you simply cannot rule out the appearance of a gamist decision, and the pursuit of advantage - which may itself be sublimated into "what the character would do" - even in game in which the Sim CA predominates.

Furthermore, I don't really follow how it can be that you say that decisions are made by consensus, and also that there are heated disputes about what a given outcome should be.  This is all the more striking in the light of your previous post some time back regarding a player decision with which you fundamentally disagreed.  It appears to me that you are achieving an eventual outcome through confrontation rather than consensus, and with the notional virtue of consensus serving to conceal the ultimate executive authority of the GM.

Anyway, I don;t mean to attack your game but I am trying to explain why I find your responses confusing.  Above, to caldis, you reject the idea that the dream pre-exists play, and yet previously you have said that players joining your group would be expected to read and digest LOT and related works, so quite clearly you are appealing to a dream the predates the game and is external to the players.  And indeed, without such an external and pre-existance standard, the ability to determine what is "correct" in the game world vanishes as there is no standard for comparison.  Why couldn't dwarves average 7'8" if that is what we agreed to imagine?  Because it contradicts the canon.

And this, it seems to me, unerlies your misunderstanding of the proposal in regards personality mechanics.  Becuase funcitonally, your game does appear to be willing and able to over-rule a given players proposed interpretation of the dream, hopefully by "consensus", but if necessary by GM fiat.  What the personality mechanics would seek to do is obviate the need for such socially coercive behaviours in favour of explicit statements as to how this aspect of the character is to be presented and portrayed in play, with the overt consent of all parties.
Title: Re: [Middle Earth - home brew] - A first, another group with the same play style
Post by: contracycle on January 06, 2006, 08:44:22 AM
Iron element becoming component of cooling device, all accepted.

QuoteThe problem is that such mechanics would not allow for any change or would certainly remove a player's choice thus leading to deprotagonization with regards the Sim CA.  Using the analogy that Callan had employed above, such mechanics (like personality mechanics) that remove player choice are deprotagonizing – they are sticks and not carrots.  Conversely, rewarding players for employing or exhibiting certain (detrimental) personality traits is protagonizing as it preserves and even rewards(!) player input.

And as I have already pointed out, thats a faulty assumption of how personality mechanics must work.  There is no inherent reason that at the system level, the player could not simply strike a peronality value of their sheet and say "I'm different now".  Obviously that has some implications for consistency in the game itself, but it is not the case that merely becuase personality mechanics exist, therfore they must be absolute and coercive and unalterable.  An excellent counter-point I think is the SA's in TROS which can be bought off, as can traits in HW I believe.

Quote
Maybe.  But my experience, which is openly admitted to be fairly limited, is that such "rules" are typically given huge amounts of credibility, so much so that failure to adhere to them is typically a "punishable offense."  I agree that personality mechanics are not "necessarily" immutable, as per the Lumpley Principle, but I have not encountered much (any?) flexibility in my experiences.  So I'll just note my disagreement and defer to someone else who has far more role-play experience to offer their own data/experiences with regards to the amount of credibility that is typically given to personality rules/mechanics in so called Sim facilitating games.

Well I agree with your observation, inasmuch it does indeed describe the way that they have commonly been done to date.  But that is not an argument against them ever being do-able.  You see what worries me is when the Dream should for example say that a character is so handsome that noble ladies swoon in his presence, but this becomes forgotten in the excitement and process of play.  Whereas if it is systematically represented, it is one of the ways in which play is carried out, and imposes itself on the game space through the action of system.

What I do ont think anyone has argued for is controlling mechanics; your objection appears to throw this baby out with the bath-water.
Title: Re: [Middle Earth - home brew] - A first, another group with the same play style!
Post by: Callan S. on January 07, 2006, 05:53:56 AM
Hi Jay,

Okay, we hit a few nails on the head together, let's see how we go.
QuoteI fully agree that Sim does benefit from the "structure" rules give, but it needs to be understood and communicated that the rules are structures open to altering, folding, etc., and not immutable truths!  It is a terribly difficult problem to overcome and I am (still) hoping to defeat – but the resistance is staggeringly stiff.
I think weve got a real issue here, based on where you put rules on the social contract - above or below/level with setting.

I don't think you can do this to rules ad hoc. Rules are not just rules, they are often the conduits of other players input. When you say you can fold, spindle and alter the rules they are giving input by, it's putting you up higher in the social contract than they are - you can fold, spindle and alter their input, but they can't do that to you.

One players rules enabled way of getting the game to just where they'd have fun, is your causal impossibility that needs to be fixed. They want the game to be somewhere that's fun. You want to iron out the game worlds wrinkles because having that (and even ironing) is fun. Your either headed for trouble, or all the players give up on any rules that could guide the game and the game sort of floats along (that's what I imagine, anyway).

A quick idea are rules that can be jetisoned. These would be used to guide the game to where everyone wants it to be. Then, by due process, everyone decides if they agrees to jetison them (kind of like a booster rocket once it's fuel is spent). If they agree, at that point the rules are either forgotten about, or go through usual process of folding, spindling, etc. That way they guide the game a bit, but everyone also gets to iron out the impossiblities.

I'm really glad weve come to so many mutual understandings so far. I hope these suggestions aren't too far off track.
Title: Re: [Middle Earth - home brew] - A first, another group with the same play style
Post by: Caldis on January 07, 2006, 04:31:49 PM
Quote from: Silmenume on January 06, 2006, 05:55:36 AM

One cannot have the Dream before play, because that, by definition, falls outside the Model.  The Dream does not; nay, cannot exist outside the players' efforts.  Something else might exist outside of Exploration, but it is most certainly cannot be the Dream.  That's foundational to the Model; human beings sharing imaginings.  Just as there is no Narrativism if the Theme is fixed prior to play, there is no Simulationism if the Dream is fixed prior to play.  Now, there may be the source material upon which the Dream will use as seed, but that source material will be altered during the course of play if the players are protagonized and you can't have CA expression without protagonized players.

I think Contra nailed this pretty well but I'll add to it.  The dream exists before play, as he said your group requires that LotR be read, but it's not just the source material it's your vision of the source material.  It's the choices made to model that dream, the rules that govern existing within that vision.  You believe that swords and armor react in x manner, therefore the rules reflect that and those rules are immutable.  If something unexpected comes up we check it with the dream and see if it fits and either discard it or allow it.  The player is empowered to dream along but he must follow the dream and not seek to disrupt it.

Sim is not just the dream Jay, Sim is the Right to Dream as Ron has pointed out countless times and the right is the most important part.  Dreaming exists in Game and Nar as well, it's just used to different ends there.   

QuoteNow, what you described may be what is called as Sim and what I am describing may ultimately find another name, but I firmly assert this – What you describe and what I describe are as proudly incompatible and different in play as Gam/Nar are from what you described.  The difference being simply this – protagonism regarding conflict (G/N/and the type of play I describe which I believe is Sim) and deprotagonism regarding conflict (Zilchplay/the type of play you described above/what is currently called Sim).  Those two divisions are utterly incompatible and rightly so.

I'm afraid I dont understand what you mean by protagonism with regards to sim play.  I understand what it means in Nar play, a players character is treated like a protagonist.  This obviously isnt the case in your games, characters are killed off rather frequently from my understanding and the character that spat in a dwarfs face certainly wasnt a protagonist.

If you just mean the player is empowered to make choices well then they certainly are.  The player in your game made the choice to spit in the dwarfs face, he had to deal with the consequences.  The player in my gurps game took the Bad Temper disdvantage, when it came into play they had to face the consequence and roll against it to determine how they reacted.  I should note that it is also not a straight jacket.  Failing the roll did not mean she had to attack it meant that her bad temper came into play.  The book suggests she has to insult attack or otherwise deal with the source of the aggravation, she was still free to decide how to react just limited in her options.   That limit on the options is exactly what sim is about.     



QuoteI'm trying not to just gainsay your positions as much as possible, but again I'm going to have to disagree with your arguments.  While I do agree that groups that don't share compatible CA's often have issues with removing such players, but your conclusion is just a glaring example of the Geek Social Fallacy in operation.

Stop right there Jay, you've missed the fact that the people I'm talking about do share a CA.  They are not playing with incompatible agendas they are all after the same thing, the question is what is that thing?  The personality mechanic helps define that, they say that this character is x and will act in an x manner.    The player knows that when it comes into play they have to either react in a manner consistent with the disdavantage they've taken or they may have to roll.  If they consistently fail to do so they may be labelled a bad roleplayer or they may be accepted as forgetful in any case the mechanic can keep the play going properly.  In your group players have to learn to react quickly, either that or they'll get split by an axe quickly when the dm starts swinging.  If they fail to the they may get kicked out of the group.  The player who continually shot arrows into combat, was he trying to put forward his own agenda by the actions or was he stunned and came up with the actions because he couldnt think of anything better?       


QuoteNot in the least – at least not with regards to role-play.  It is the player making the decision who determines if a problem is a Narrativist choice or not.  Like Ron's sample scene in the Narrativism essay, one cannot determine CA from transcript.  Only from the players actions and reactions that make, express and support CA that CA can be seen.

You clipped the qualifiers and missed my point.  Making that choice is the heart of narrativism, that is why it requires freedom to make that choice.  For Sim this is a possible outcome but it's not a necessity.  You don't have to be free to make the choice you have to be considering the dream when you make the choice.   Deciding on Vaders action in sim would require consideration of what has gone before, the incident you gave as an example I have a hard time imagining anyone restricting the choice he makes after he's already turned against the emperor.



Quote
Quote from: Caldis on January 02, 2006, 03:26:51 PMWhat other games have you played that you would identify as sim?

Until about a few weeks ago, I would say that I had come across only one Sim facilitating game.  I fully admit that my experiences are very limited, but I have read and skimmed through a number of systems and they all suffered from that same basic conceptual problems.  Their insistence upon Story.  Their overwhelming resolution systems that suffer from two basic problems.  Their sheer crushing weight, and that they are framed basically as task resolution systems.  Sim is not about story and task resolution systems confound the Sim CA as much as conflict resolution systems do Gamism and task resolution systems do Narrativism.  Any game structured around one or both of these memes can and does confound the Sim CA expression.  I have not come across a published game design yet that has avoided both these common barriers to effective Sim expression.

Wow Jay, umm dont you think that view is kind of limited?  I mean how did Ron manage to recognize Sim as a creative agenda if no games were functionally supporting it?

How does task resolution conflict with the Sim CA?  I know it conflicts with narrativism in that it' s generally a waste of time, keeping one from getting to an address of premise because you are doing all sorts of meaningless tasks.  In Sim on the other hand those meaningless tasks can be just as important as the story, i.e. necessary for realism.

Again Jay I have to say that I think you are a strong advocate for your style of play, but you've made the mistake of identifying your style as the only way to possibly do sim.  I think Sim is quite varied and many forms of it have been functionally supported by the industry for virtually it's entire history.  Some gamist cruft may appear in many of the games but they are generally not deal breakers because the sim support is so thorough.  Take disdavantages from gurps, you thought they sounded gamist but they are anything but.  A player actively bringing his disadvantages into play is not trying to show his ability to step on up, he's reacting according to the dream in a manner that will likely be a suboptimal choice.

Your game does sound fascinating and if you want to promote it as a sterling example of sim in action I'm all for that, I dont think however it is definitional of sim.  If you want to really promote your style of play there are lots of things you could discuss here that would help others understand and hope to emulate it.  I'm not sure if you can answer the really gritty questions however, they may be secrets your GM keeps close to his chest.  I'd really be interested in how he comes up with scenarios, how much and what type of prep time does he do for the games.  How often does your group play, and how does that affect his prep?  I believe you talked one about your group having bull sessions discussing Tolkiens work.  How much does that influence play?  Does he get ideas in those sessions or does he give out more info on how he feels the world works, getting people on the same page?  I know you tend to play for long sessions, do you have shorter ones if so what difference does that make?

You dont have to answer those questions now rather I think they are a basis for interesting discussion.




Title: Re: [Middle Earth - home brew] - A first, another group with the same play style
Post by: Silmenume on January 09, 2006, 05:00:52 AM
Hi contracycle,

Quote from: contracycle on January 06, 2006, 08:32:53 AM
I';m afraid that response looks rather confused to me.  At the top you refer to mutual consensus, at the bottom you refer to submission to the arbitration of the GM.

I can certainly see where I have made a confusing mess of things.  Let me see what I can do to untangle this Gordian knot.  When I said "mutual consensus" I was referring to the Lumpley Principle.  So whether the whole table literally stops play to hash out and vote on an issue or the GM makes a call the Lumpley Principle is still in operation.  Which, to me, means that in either case all the players must still be in consensus in order for play to continue.  If the GM makes a call that the players feel is inconsistent with the Dream then that call may come up for discussion.  We all understand that just because a player disputes a GM's call that does not mean said players hasn't evaluated the call and has not placed a "vote."

QuoteI can subvert submission to the GM's authority by insisting on information I don't actually possess and blackmailing you to come to my "consensus".

I'm not sure I'm following you.  While I certainly agree it is possible that one could dissemble regarding the veracity of their proffered knowledge, yet if said "knowledge/contribution" is agreeable to all involved then what does it matter – everyone agrees that said knowledge tracks close enough with the established SIS and the source material that it does not matter whether it is objectively "factual" or "fictional."  If everyone thought it was "plausible enough" isn't that all that matters?  There are no "winners" or "losers" in Sim, so what is to be gained by essentially bullying one's point into credibility?  The goal to create a mutually acceptable SIS is not circumvented, but the Social fallout among the players if such tactics are discovered for what they are would certainly a Social Contract catastrophe.  People would be sitting around wondering why the offending player "had" to lie to the other players?  There is no upside and a huge potential downside.  One could, for example, "cheat" in Gamism for the goal of achieving the state of "victor" – even if it is hollow.  In Sim I'm just not convinced there is a game based advantage to be had for "lying."

QuoteFurthermore, I don't really follow how it can be that you say that decisions are made by consensus, and also that there are heated disputes about what a given outcome should be.

All decisions must ultimately be a consensus if the game is to move forward – that just a rephrasing of the Lumpley Principle.  The "heated" disputes, (if they indeed become "heated") when they come, do so after the game and are usually a matter of discussing the implications (potential entailments) of player decisions (i.e., what said decisions "mean" for the "world").  There are frequent discussion in-between games (actually "after" games) about an almost infinite variety of matters, one such might be cavalry tactics FREX and would such-and-such people be organized as such, and if so how would they be employed given the particulars of the culture and geography of the people in question, etc.  Also out of game (and I don't mean OOC) discussions can cover such matters as mechanics or "designing" a new culture, a new weapon, new town or anything else of game related interest.  Nothing in these discussions becomes final until they are entered into or "felt" in the SIS.  The important thing to remember is that such discussions and their "conclusions" are nothing until they have been run through the Lumpley Principle during play – consensually agreed upon by all the players even if it is only the GM who spoke the statement in the particular process of making of an in-game ruling.

Don't let the whole "heated" discussions throw you.  Heated discussions during play are "not allowed."  Such discussions (heated or not) are not bricolage in action – they are a meta-game process (ad extra to the SIS) operating at the "concept level" (engineering, as opposed to bricolage, thinking process) and while they are strongly discouraged they are not strictly forbidden.  However, getting hot at the table during one of those discussions is considered extremely bad form and is a subject that is covered in the Social Contract.  Finally remember, as has been discussed on the boards here before, consensus doesn't mean everyone must be happy with the decision it only means that everyone is in agreement or at least giving consent.

QuoteThis is all the more striking in the light of your previous post some time back regarding a player decision with which you fundamentally disagreed.  It appears to me that you are achieving an eventual outcome through confrontation rather than consensus, and with the notional virtue of consensus serving to conceal the ultimate executive authority of the GM.

Of course we achieve consensus through confrontation or at least conflict!  Without conflict there is no impetus to come up with consensus!  That's the core process of role-play, isn't it?  Bricolage only comes up when there are problems that need to be dealt with/addressed.  We're not just sitting around a table brainstorming or philosophizing, we're struggling as a group to contend with problems that arise within and "need" solving via the SIS all done while holding to and supporting the group aesthetic – just like Premise (the guiding aesthetic) is addressed via conflict within the SIS and Challenge (the guiding aesthetic) is addressed via conflict within the SIS.

Hmmm... just as aside, I wonder if it would be useful to discuss the notion that all role-play rests on at least two basic pillars:  Player protagonization (which includes the Lumpley Principle) and the necessity of conflict for CA expression.  I wonder this because on the biggest and most stubbornly persistent problems plaguing Sim theory is the consistent denial of the necessity of conflict for its expression.  This would obviously have to be discussed somewhere else as I'm not sure such a discussion would be germane to the Forge any longer.

QuoteFurthermore, I don't really follow how it can be that you say that decisions are made by consensus, and also that there are heated disputes about what a given outcome should be.

Obviously we're having a communications break down!  Since I can only account for myself I'll both take the blame and make the effort to clear it up.  If I gave the impression that decisions are made by "vote" consensus during a game and that there are also heated disputes during a game about what a given outcome should be – then I have completely and utterly failed to communicate my ideas with any facility.

When I say that, "decisions are made by consensus I mean two things."


QuoteIt appears to me that you are achieving an eventual outcome through confrontation rather than consensus, and with the notional virtue of consensus serving to conceal the ultimate executive authority of the GM.

I hope that I have addressed this assertion in the preceding paragraphs.  If I did not do so to your satisfaction, please let me know I will make a direct effort.

QuoteAbove, to caldis, you reject the idea that the dream pre-exists play, and yet previously you have said that players joining your group would be expected to read and digest LOT and related works, so quite clearly you are appealing to a dream the predates the game and is external to the players.

I think the apparent contradiction lies in our conflicting "definitions" of "The Dream."  I'm not quite sure how to put this as the idea is still fuzzy in my head, but here goes...

Starting with Exploration is the active sharing of imaginings among the players we can assume that role-play is something that is transitory a very-in-the-present kind of thing.  That is, when the players are not engaged in the ritual process of sharing their imaginings they are no longer said to be engaged in Exploration.  That is when the ritual space is exited (we have stepped outside the model) then CA expression has also ceased.  Thus from a Narrativist perspective we are no longer engaged in the ritualized process of Addressing the Premise question.  From a Gamist perspective we are no in the ritualized process of Addressing the Challenge situation.  It follows then, in Simulationism, that one is not "Dreaming" unless they too are in the ritual space of Exploration.  As the Premise does not "exist" outside the game space, the Dream does not "exist" outside the game space either.  Just like music.  We can read the notes on a sheet of paper, we can discuss the music, but it just ain't music unless it is being played – i.e. made audible on instruments.

And just like Narrativism, it isn't just about playing the notes on the paper (playing a pre-created Theme) it about making the melody (making the Theme up as we go along).  Thus it goes, by extension, with Sim.  By the Model the Dream cannot exist before the game because it cannot exist outside the game.  To claim otherwise is to commit a category error.

Continuing this "music" analogy, all the required reading is the same as becoming familiar and proficient with a certain style of music, say, Dixieland jazz conventions.  Thus we ask that new players make themselves familiar with the same forms and "theories" that we established players draw from when playing in our group.  We are not just vomiting up previously published pieces of music, but rather having all the participants be conversant with the conventions so we may continue to create Dixieland jazz style of music.  In our case it would be asking new players to become familiar with the Middle Earth structures so that may join us in continuing to expand upon those structures.

QuoteAnd indeed, without such an external and pre-existance standard, the ability to determine what is "correct" in the game world vanishes as there is no standard for comparison.  Why couldn't dwarves average 7'8" if that is what we agreed to imagine?  Because it contradicts the canon.

Here again we come to the starting structures that both myth and Sim need.  They serve only as a starting point, the seed material not the conclusion.  Who knows, maybe in time the group agrees through play that something does indeed happen that makes the Dwarves 7'8".  If that's what the group has played to then that's all that matters.  The group aesthetic has evolved during play and there is nothing in Sim that disallows that.  Bricolage says that it will happen over time.  If fact, not only is that drift utterly unavoidable, it is a central feature of the process.

QuoteAnd this, it seems to me, unerlies your misunderstanding of the proposal in regards personality mechanics.  Becuase funcitonally, your game does appear to be willing and able to over-rule a given players proposed interpretation of the dream, hopefully by "consensus", but if necessary by GM fiat.

The problem with this conclusion is that even "GM fiat" must be accepted by all – bringing us right back to consensus and the Lumpley Principle.  Thus a player cannot be "over-ruled" if he himself joins the consensus.  The game cannot proceed without his agreement to the interpretation.  The side you have neglected to explore is the converse, where a player proposes an interpretation that is different from the norm yet is accepted into the SIS.  By using the your logic said player has "over-ruled" the whole table, but that is simply not the case.  Everyone has agreed that the new "interpretation" is a better "interpretation" of the aesthetic than they had all agreed to previously and so it is altered by consensus just that little bit.

Actually this is a phenomenally crucial point to wrapping one's mind around the Sim CA.  That act of consensus is the point of play – it just happens in a way that is culturally alien to literate culture thinking styles.  I.e. the Dream being agreed upon by one and all of the players and is not something that can be deferred to a fixed third party mechanical system.  Mechanics pull "assume the responsibility/empowerment of consideration" away from the players in the act of striving for that consensus.

Hi Claire,

In reviewing my post to you I see that I should expand a bit upon my response to your question about "Who decides who has the authority?"

During a game itself, for two major reason, the Buck (typically) Stops with the GM with regards to how the world works/responds.


That there are "imperfections" or conflicts within the perfection of the Dream compels us forward to explain them away – thus "proving" the wholeness and soundness of the Dream.  That's how myth works and I believe that same process is at work in Sim.  Just as a jazz player at a performance might make an "error," rather than resetting and trying again another player takes that so called "error" and works it into the melody demonstrating that there was no "error" in the first place!
Title: Re: [Middle Earth - home brew] - A first, another group with the same play style!
Post by: RDU Neil on January 09, 2006, 05:05:21 PM
So... I'm sure a bunch of folks will correct me if I'm wrong but I always understood things to work like this...

The Premise exists before the game.
The Challenge exists before the game.
The Dream exists before the game.

The game is the Exploration of the Premise or Challenge or Dream... depending on your CA.

Very simplified, with all the errors that entails... but it means that even if you have stopped the "ritualized process of Addressing the Premise" it doesn't mean that the Premise doesn't exist... you just aren't currently exploring it.   Same for the Dream... which exists to be explored in the "ritualized process" that is the game... but doesn't have to be explored to exist. 

Like I said... I could be completely off on this, but if I'm close it could explain some of the cross talk on this issue.
Title: Re: [Middle Earth - home brew] - A first, another group with the same play style!
Post by: Silmenume on January 10, 2006, 06:53:59 AM
Hey contracycle,

The whole split post thing totally gaffled my little pea brain!  Here is my effort at a response to the second part of your post.

Quote from: contracycle on January 06, 2006, 08:44:22 AMAnd as I have already pointed out, thats a faulty assumption of how personality mechanics must work.

I'll have to review your earlier postings regarding my "faulty assumptions" regarding personality mechanics.  If you could quote your previous arguments in a reply, that would help me out immensely.  I honestly don't recall coming across a "proof," so I am eager to see what missed or just plain skipped over.

QuoteThere is no inherent reason that at the system level, the player could not simply strike a peronality value of their sheet and say "I'm different now".

Actually such an action is inherently at odds with bricolage.  Interestingly, I am quite delighted you used this as an example!  Understanding this, even (especially?) for myself, is the key to understanding the basic, fundamental difference between N/G and Sim.

This will be mostly "thinking out loud," so if I don't make too much sense, don't take it as a demonstration that my thesis is insupportable, yet, I'm still trying to work it through!  Any way...

My basic argument is that the process and the necessary attendant criterion by which the whole group validates input into the SIS is what is "at stake" in Sim.  I am going to use an analogy which will probably gum up the works somethin' fierce, but it's the best I can do at the moment.  Have patience please!

Sim (using Nar play as an easily understood reference point) is a rough equivalent to having a "Theme" already in place (lodged in the players heads) and the players efforts, their expression of their Sim CA, is to create input, via the addressing of problems, that supports and expands that "Theme."   Now don't get all hung up on the word Theme as being exactly representative of Ron's and the Big Model's denotative meaning.  The part that I am groping for is not the "problematic human issue" but rather that some human state is already accepted to be "proven," what we are doing in game is showing all the different ways that the Theme is represented throughout all segments of the game space.  We are, to borrow a term that has been tossed around the Forge prior, celebrating that "Theme" through out all of play.  Except – there is not just one "Theme," but there are many and the number must continue to grow through out play.  The key is we are not questioning the "Theme" at all.  Rather, that a given statement is accepted into the SIS is the indication of said statement as being an acceptable restatement of the group celebrated "Theme(s)."

This "criterion/aesthetic" yardstick of acceptability is under constant revision as play progress and anything that has an effect on what does or does not get validated will distort that aesthetic.  Just as GM force dilutes the effective address of Premise and the resultant Theme in Nar, in Sim fixed Mechanics that "determine" what gets accepted into the SIS have the identical diluting effect on the Dream.  It is no longer the players' Dream, but the players Dream as distorted/diluted/fixed by the game designer's "vision."

Thus, I argue, that mechanics are a reflection of the SIS and implies at least two very important ideas.  The first is that mechanics are not the controlling impetus of play as they are in G/N.  The second is that the mechanics ought not and should not be placed on a pedestal – they are merely a mirror of the players' decisions and thus are open to evolution/alteration etc.  Ultimately a cognitive shift needs to take place in marketed "Sim" games in that they are not "about story" and that the role of mechanics is not to act as an "objective adjudicator" of tasks.

Whew!  Now to get back to you statement - There is no inherent reason that at the system level, the player could not simply strike a peronality value of their sheet and say "I'm different now".

Such an act is not a bricolage act.  In fact it demonstrates a process that functions directly in reverse from the way Bricolage functions.  IOW the above is an Engineering process style of action.  A bricoleur would not, "simply strike a personality value of their sheet and say, "I'm different now," they would simply not have their Character act in that fashion within the SIS.  Not only is there no need for a player to say, "I'm different now," its an empty statement – a category error as it were.  All the ideas/concepts are demonstrated via choices expressed within the SIS.  There is no point in saying, "I am different," when they have already acted different within the SIS.  Said player has already made the statement, within the SIS, that they are, "different now."  That something is noted on a piece of paper is merely a reflection of what the player has already chosen to express.  That's how bricolage works.  We make the machine to express the concept/idea.  In role-play this would mean we have our Character (the Character "machine") act in a certain way and then we point to the Character "machine" when we want to communicate the concept/idea – "I am cruel," or "I am brave," or "I am patient."

QuoteYou see what worries me is when the Dream should for example say that a character is so handsome that noble ladies swoon in his presence, but this becomes forgotten in the excitement and process of play.  Whereas if it is systematically represented, it is one of the ways in which play is carried out, and imposes itself on the game space through the action of system.

This, to me, is really a bit of a silly "what if?"  "What if" in the excitement and process of play the mechanic itself becomes forgotten?  What happens as a result?  The Dream becomes a little dimmer, an iota less rich.  This is where the "quality" of player comes in, just as in the "quality" of player comes into play in Gamist play.  Some players are simply better/more capable/skilled as certain activities than others.  That's part of the necessity of finding compatible players for a given group and game.  Who wants a player at Narrativist game who consistently chooses bland responses and can't get the "system" right?  Who wants to play against a player in a Gamist game who consistently forgets rules and loses?  If everyone at the table is OK with mismatched players then all is right in the world.  However, mechanics cannot and should not substitute for player choice/creativity/intelligence.  That's the province of Social Contract.  IOW that's a problem that can only be solved among the players and not something that can be shoved down to mechanics.

Hullo Callan,

Quote from: Callan S. on January 07, 2006, 05:53:56 AMI don't think you can do this to rules ad hoc. Rules are not just rules, they are often the conduits of other players input. When you say you can fold, spindle and alter the rules they are giving input by, it's putting you up higher in the social contract than they are - you can fold, spindle and alter their input, but they can't do that to you.

I fully agree that rules can't just be altered ad hoc.  First of all any so called rules change must be "ratified" by the whole group ala the Lumpley Principle.  Second and following upon the Lumpley Principle, said fictional rules change must reflect/adhere to the group aesthetic of what the Dream is all about.  So I want to just make clear that this not something that is done on a whim or without some sort of over arching view/review.  The rules are still beholden to the Dream, as they are a reflection of said Dream, that the whole table is trying to express.  Thus a player cannot act capriciously and/or solo when proposing a rules change, oh no!  This is a group process; make no mistake!  Because of what has been termed the Lumpley Principle this must still be a consensus process.  Do we all agree that the proposed rule change is agreeable to us all?  Do we all believe that it better reflects/captures the Dream we are trying to express? 

Just as a side note, at the game I play in, we usually reserve such conversations for after a game so that we may continue to play and then make the corrections when we aren't in the thick of things!  But I do think that is locally set aesthetic that does vary from group to group.

QuoteYou want to iron out the game worlds wrinkles because having that (and even ironing) is fun.

You bet that even the ironing can be fun!  Many an hour has been spent outside of play debating, fining and refining the rules to match what has happened in play as well as idea that we think are consistent with the source material over all.  It really is an extension of the whole Sim process.

QuoteA quick idea are rules that can be jetisoned. These would be used to guide the game to where everyone wants it to be. Then, by due process, everyone decides if they agrees to jetison them (kind of like a booster rocket once it's fuel is spent). If they agree, at that point the rules are either forgotten about, or go through usual process of folding, spindling, etc. That way they guide the game a bit, but everyone also gets to iron out the impossiblities.

Absolutely!  That's a critical idea!  I think that is exactly what happened in the very early days when my GM was "generating his system."  They went through excruciating detail to try and get things "just so," but once employed for a while it no longer became necessary to "haul them out" as they became so engrained into the process of play and how the players understood the world they just slowly faded into the background and were then slowly were morphed over the course of time and play.

HEY!  I finally go a hold of the system information of Myrandus that I had made reference to in the beginning of this thread –

Quote from: The author of the Myrandus game system.Please do NOT select any area of knowledge of which you, the player, know little or nothing. To truly role-play a character, you must at least have a firm grasp of the basics of an area. Thus, if you truly have no idea how to be a good hunter, what a tracker looks for in a print, how to read the stars, and how one goes about driving a "hard bargain," choose other skills/characters. Research will increase your ability to play new characters if you are truly interested. Above all, DO NOT FAKE IT! Bullshitting your way through a skill makes people ignore you and is very unsatisfying for all involved.

Some skills are more challenging than others in the above manner. To this end, two special marks can be found among the text. These are serious warnings to dissuade the casually interested from investing in these skills, as player performance is crucial in their execution.

[Book icon here]  Do not select these skills unless you as a player are somewhat educated in their area, interested in learning much more about them, and willing to role-play a world view based on an understanding of this skill.

[Pig-face icon here]Do not select these skills unless you are able, willing, and eager to role-play them to the appropriate level, no more, no less. These skills generally grant "permission" to utilize real-world knowledge and skill in-character. The GM won't help you if you can't pull off the role-playing. These skills are mandatory to purchase if you intend to use similar real-world experience to assist your role-playing, such as salesmanship or leadership, and they are forbidden if you don't have the talent.

Many of the sentiments listed about are similar to ones we hold in our game.  We don't spell our skill out nor enumerate them to the same degree as the author above did, but success is heavily based upon what the player says, not what is listed on the sheet, i.e., a mechanic.

Just thought I would finally share some of the actual text of what I have been referring to since the beginning of this thread!  I though the part about "bullshitting" might be particularly interesting to Claire because of her question earlier regarding this very topic.

Caldis I will post a reply soon!