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I am currently working on a game that is influenced by Alice in wonderland, Mirrormask, Labyrinth, Wizard of Oz,

I am at the design stage and am working on the rules at the moment. I think that for the genre that d6s will work best with a simple target number for tests. I am debating the need for a combat mechanic or if a general physical mechanic will do just as well.

The players play children lost in the second land between the age of 7 to 14. The younger your character is the less skilled they are but the more they are able to use there imagination to help them at key moments in the story.

I am open to any contribution from members here. This is my first serious stab at game design so I guess I'm ready to get a bloody nose.

Thank you in advance for any feed back.

Hi, Aldoth, welcome!

It's a bit hard to say much about your game - you haven't posted very many details. You'll probably get more and better replies if you can post a bit more.

A few questions/comments:

1. Why a combat mechanic? Is combat important to the feeling of the game?
2. How does using a character's skill differ from using their imagination? It would be great if you could provide some examples of how you see this being used!

Heya Aldoth,

Welcome to the Forge!  A combat mechanic for that sort of game does sound a little wierd to me.  I'd have to know more about your game to give you a solid oppinion tho.  At first blush, it would seem that imagination, curiosity, and bravery would be a characters main stats rather that stuff like attack and defense.

I think you've hit on an interesting idea here.  Maybe you could answer a few quick questions for me?

1.  What is the point of play in your game?  IE, what facets of things like Alice and Oz are you wanting the players and characters to explore?

2.  What do the characters do in your game?  In OZ for instance, each of the main characters (including the witch) had a goal they worked to achieve.  What will motivate characters in your game to act?

3.  How do the players play their characters?  I mean, what sorts of freedoms, responsibilities, and tools do you give the players to play?  How are narration right divided?  And What do you expect the players to *get* out of playing your game?

Glad to see you here, Aldoth.  I hope we can help you on your way :)

Peace,

-Troy

Here is the notes Ive got so far
Adventures In The Second Land

Characters
Name
Age
Cleverness      =   Points Pool
Quickness      =   Points Pool
Bravery      =   Points Pool
Scrappy      =    Points Pool
Imagination   =   15 – age.


Memory       =    Chapters
Heart      =   Chapters
Innocence   =   Chapters
Joy      =    Chapters

Health      =    Chapters + 1d6

Rules
A character rolls there stat in d6s and adds the stat number and has to roll over the target number.

1 Failer
6 Automatic Success
you have the number of points equal to your age
From 7 to 14 years old
Your imagination is your age – 15.
Imagination gives you points to spend every day to save your but. You spend imagination points to save your character each game.
Your age points you can use bid on what skills you want to be best at.


Characters Opposed Actions
You roll and the highest number of successes wins. You can spend self points to add to successes.


Features
Cute
Neat
Messy
Bookish
Overweight
Talkative
Stuttering
Knowledgeable
Kind
Generous
Greedy
Selfish
Unselfish
Angry
Sad
Happy


Beacons
Father
Mother
Parents
Dog
Cat
Brother
Sister
A toy
A book
Best Friend
Optional – Other characters
Guides
Guides are characters that can hinder or help the character. If the characters find a helpful guide they gain imagination points.

Guides have all stats at 2 and talents equal to the chapter that they first appear in. There imagination is equal to the number of chapters that they have been in the game for.


Barons
The lords of the second land they are the tools that the land uses to capture a character. They will have a point pool equal to the characters imagination score plus the number of characters in the tale.

Shickens
Henchmen of Barons most Shicken have all attributes at 1 and a talent.

Talismans

Talismans are items that you can find in the second land that can help you. You spend self points to acquire Talismans.

Childhood fantasy.

Labyrinth, Mirrormask, Spirited Away, Alice in Wonderland, The Oz books, Books of Magic, Changeling,

Avoiding getting lost.

You loose a point at the end of every chapter if they ever drop to zero you get lost in the land. This gives you a ticking clock.

The ticking clock is to finding your beacon.

The land is the bad guy.

There are characters that help you and characters that hinder you. They will try to trick you.

The shadow creatures Shickens.

Barons are lords of there own realms.

Player contribution.

Shicken work for the the Barons

Guides can help or hinder you if you loose you character to the land you play your guide which is a limited character to try and rescue your character from the land

The event. That shunts the characters into the Lend of the second world.

Who are you is important.

You represent an opportunity for the NPCs in the game. They want to poses you or something that you represent. They steal your beacon because they want to get to you. They feed off you in some way or another.

There goal is to posses you.

Independence is important to your character. You are fighting to remain free of the influence of the land. It can steal attributes but you gain advantages.

You can take parts of the land back with you but then you are allowing the land to enter into our world.

Your beacon is the one thing that you don't know that you don't want to loose.

So this is everything that i have so far

I have copied and pasted 2 documents so it is a bit all over the place but that is the start

Welcome to the Forge, dude!

Just a quick note - it seems like you've set this up so that the older you are, the more competent you are and the better your imagination is.  I'd suggest that to reflect the genre, you might want to reverse this.  I could also see just reversing imagination, if that is notably powerful in the game.  That might provide a nice balance between general capability, represented by increasing age and maturity, and imagination, which decreases in potency as you get older. 

--Jason

I see I got that wrong, sorry.  Imagination = 15 minus age, so younger = better.

Hi!
  Welcome to the Forge! OK, onto the comments:
  How is Scrappyness differentiated from Bravery or Cleverness? It seems like the first 3 attributes are well defined and mostly distinguishable from the others, and then you have Scrappiness...

QuoteMemory = Chapters
Heart = Chapters
Innocence = Chapters
Joy = Chapters

Health = Chapters + 1d6

I take it Chapters=XPs? Or is that Chapters of background? Either way, Innocence tends to go down as the character experiences more of these tails of wonder.
  I think a crunchy combat resolution would be wrong for this genre. If, in the end, you feel you have to include combat, maybe use a "Falling down" rule like Toon? It is VERY RARE for a child to die in one of these stories.
  Another question I have is, how does the game deal with "bad kids"? For instance, an unruly child is almost always included in the group in the source materials. But if you have 3 or 4 players and one of them is off getting turkish delight while the others are playing as a group, how do you want to deal with the group spending a disproportionate amount of time on one character? And what if more than one want to be bad, or all of them?
  One idea you might want to borrow from Saucy Jack, is the idea that the characters are recalling their tales in the second land years later as adults or senoirs. This will explain why they never die, because how else could they be here to tell the tale...
  I think this is a good idea for a game, and it sounds like you know what you want it to look like in the end. So, I am sure it will turn out well, good luck!

Basically, I think this is pretty good. It looks solid as is, and certainly doesn't need a combat system bolted on. I suspect that's exactly what you were thinking, but you came here and asked because every other system seems to have one. Forget it. You're almost good to go with a quick edit and some guidance in terms of adventure design.

The main thing that jumped out at me is cosmetic to a degree, but I'd be lying if I didn't admit it affected my reading. You need to work some on editing your text - there are a lot of typos.

The essential question I have is how do the Schickens, the Barons, and the Guides interact? What might they want from one another and the PCs?

I'm going to chime in -- I haven't scoured every one else's replies yet.  But I need some clarification about "combat mechanic"

If you mean "beating up mythical creatures" then, no.  If you mean "kids playing at fighting" then, most definitely yes.  In fact, I think you'd be remiss if you didn't include some sort of structure for how children play at violence.

Now, I'm going back to read everything in-depth.

Ok firstly thank you everyone for your contribution.

I appologise for my bad spelling I will obviously give this a hard edit when I come to typing up the first draft of the rules

Here is a long answer to several queations. You guys have been a big help and the game is starting to take shape.

QuoteHow is Scrappyness differentiated from Bravery or Cleverness? It seems like the first 3 attributes are well defined and mostly distinguishable from the others, and then you have Scrappiness...

I suppose that I wanted a physical stat that reflects the ability to do physical things. Another name might be better or looking at it maybe I dont need another. Now that I think about it health really fills what I wanted scrappyness to fill in the game. I suppose that i am afraid of having too few mechanics but looking at the type of game it is probebly a better way to go. This also makes your character have higher attribute if you are a younger character. Im worried that older characters may become more powerful but imagination may equal that out.

I have decided that you buy traits as well and that they will be related to your attributes and that you can burn them for the session to add to the number of dice you can roll

QuoteI take it Chapters=XPs? Or is that Chapters of background? Either way, Innocence tends to go down as the character experiences more of these tails of wonder.

Chapters are the number of sections in the adventure the DM tells the player that they will have say fifteen chapters in the game so all there personal stats start at 15. At the end of each chapter all there personal stats go down. If any of those stats goes to 0 then they get lost in the land.

But fear not because there guide can save them.

Self points also can be taken by NPCs in the land and if they do the NPC gets stronger.

I want there to be a ticking clock in the game.

I am still getting a handel on experience I think that you will add traits to your character after each chapter that best described what you did in the last chapter.

QuoteAnother question I have is, how does the game deal with "bad kids"? For instance, an unruly child is almost always included in the group in the source materials. But if you have 3 or 4 players and one of them is off getting turkish delight while the others are playing as a group, how do you want to deal with the group spending a disproportionate amount of time on one character? And what if more than one want to be bad, or all of them?

I thought of that. And one of the ways to have that fulfilled is to have one of the players be a beacon (He is off having turkish delights and the other characters have to find him.

You stop loosing self stats (Memory,Heart,Innocence, Joy and to a lesser extent health) once you find your beacon. I would imagine that bad kids would loose double the self stats that good kids do because there impuleses are dragging them closer to the Second land. So each chapter that you are bad instead of gaining a trait you loose an extra self point equal to the closest stat.) I could later have an expansion that deals with bad kids.

Also if your self does drop to 0 you dont get to sit on the sidelines for the rest of the game you then play your guide. A character that is more limited because they are of the land but still able to save your characters skin. If they can remind you of who you were and what you are looking for then you get your character back.(guides dont loose self from chapter to chapter but they dont gain traits very well either maybe once every three chapters they gain one trait. (to reflect that the other characters are having an effect on them. Or that they are being really selfless for the first time. (to get a guide you must give them a self point by discribing an action that fulfills that role then they perminantly gain the loyalty trait that they can burn and regain each chapter.

Quote.  What is the point of play in your game?  IE, what facets of things like Alice and Oz are you wanting the players and characters to explore?

The fantasy elements of those stories I like everything turned up to 200%. I also dont see a game that really deals with these type of stories in this type of way. The point of the game is for the palyers to tell there own OZ stories or wonderland stories from a land of there creation.

I want your beacon to be related to a baron so that if we have four players then you can have up to four beacons ( Players can choose the same one) and a baron for each beacon.

So if your beacon is your father then the baron could be an evil king that looks like your father.

Elements of the baron will be reflected in the shickens.

Of course they could be completely unrelated.

But I like the idea of the players describing there beacon in character creation giving it traits. Then the barons reflect the mirror of those traits or the antithesis of those traits. Then there shicken are an element of that.

So if the beacon was say a book I would descirbe its traits as wonder, imagination, freedom, (things it represents to my character) and so the baron would be like a clock work Rectangle with black dots for eyes called the Master of order his goals would be to stamp out freedom and imagination. His shicken could be dampeners that attack your sense of wonder. Grey faceless stick figures. This would give the GM the plot that the master of order is working to take over the second land to rid the world of chaos and uncertainty. That is what the denizins of the land are worried about when the characters arrive.

With Imagination you can use the points each chapter to change the narative. You get imagination points back at the start of each chapter. ( I dont know if I have given the players too many of these points.) Maybe you dont get the points back.

The other key thing is Talismen. These are items that help you on your quests. They are things you find in the second land that you can use. They have some benefits (A very useful book in Mirror mask) They cost self points to aquire but it makes your quest easier.

You can use Talisman instead of burning traits.

I also have not yet settled on the dice mechanic.

I want it to be d6s but do I add the stat to the roll and then count sucesses or a sucess or failer flat mechanic and have target numbers over 6 for exceptionally hard tasks? (with 6 being automatic sucess  and 1 being an auto failer)

Or do I burn traits or imagination to give me an auto sucess. I will mull this over.

I think that I will have the players set the level of danger in the land. They vote on if the land is deadly or not (above the fact that the whole party could get lost in the land.


I think that after consideration that I dont need a combat mechanic for the game as it stands right now.

I may need it for guides. I will finalise the other aspects of the game before I get into the rules for playing a guide.

Can anyone fix the spelling of adventures in the thread heading?

Quote from: Aldoth on January 02, 2006, 07:59:41 AMYou represent an opportunity for the NPCs in the game. They want to poses you or something that you represent. They steal your beacon because they want to get to you. They feed off you in some way or another. [Their] goal is to posses you.

Wow.

This part just leaps out at me, singing with beauty and terror. They want to possess you. (Shudder...). Because being a child is all about having no control over what you do, or where you go, or who you are -- about being, necessarily, a possession of others -- and growing up is a struggle for self-possession in the most literal sense of the world. The drug-addicted, the fearful, the workaholics, the shopaholics, the empty ones, they're the ones who don't possess themselves.

If I were you -- and I'm not, obviously, I'm just suggesting -- I'd want every piece of this game to support this struggle in some way. Everything else is extraneous, distracting, and can be cut.

May I ask what RPGs you're familiar with? There's a bunch of non-traditional games made by Forge-affiliated people (some even available for free) that are well worth looking at, I think, especially in terms of techniques for all the players to create the world of the story together.

P.S.: I had the same problem with a typo in a thread title a while back; send a Personal Message to Clinton Nixon, the technical administrator, and ask him (politely, of course) to fix it when he can; he's very busy, but only because he's so darned helpful to people.

Great idea.  I've often thought that this genre was underrepresented in RPGs.  Deliria was the best attempt, but it tried to cover too much ground.  A couple of thoughts:

You definitely need a system for combat, although it should be incorporated into the systems for all other kinds of conflict.  Combat shouldn't be too invasive, as many stories in this genre don't involve it (Alice in Wonderland, Labyrinth), but it should make combat a definite option since it's intrinsic to others (Peter Pan, The Neverending Story).

I don't see any need for limitations based on age.  It rings of Changeling-esque pretension, and unnecessarily limits what you could run with this game.  Neverwhere and The Rocky Horror Picture Show easily fall into this genre, and both of them have adult protagonists.

There should be provisions for non-human PCs.  Otherwise, most games that stuck to the source material would only have one player and a bunch of NPCs who got way too much screen time.

Might I recommend a randomless system?  It seems like solutions in these stories usually involve figuring out some sort of moral, metaphor or riddle, or thinking creatively, not simple tests of skill.  Come to think of it, I would drop numerical stats altogether.  Give each character two or three keywords about the problems they need to solve on this journey and a system for tracking their progress towards denouement.  That's just me, though, and it would be a big deviation from where you're currently taking the game.

Hi Aldoth,

I really like this. Stuff like Alice in Wonderland is just asking to become a roleplaying game.

I'm still not totally sure how the game would play: could you post a quick write-up of how you see play proceeding moment by moment? What the players say, what the GM says and so on? I'm interested to know how things like Talismans and Guides actually come up in play.

By the way, it strikes me that you don't exactly need Health Levels but something subtly different. In stories like Alice, the characters don't really seem to get injured. They're not in danger of death, but they're in danger of losing who they are (as you mentioned above). Perhaps, instead of losing health levels, the characters could lose pieces of Who They Are, or something?

Graham

Hi!
  I just want to throw my hat in with the no randomizer idea. I actually thought of it, but didn;t suggest it. Maybe use an effort system Like Marvel Universe?
  Something like there is a bolder in the path, and you could decide to use 5 dice of scrappy or 3 dice of clever or something else with a little imagination...

Quote from: Graham Walmsley on January 03, 2006, 12:21:13 AMBy the way, it strikes me that you don't exactly need Health Levels but something subtly different. In stories like Alice, the characters don't really seem to get injured. They're not in danger of death, but they're in danger of losing who they are (as you mentioned above). Perhaps, instead of losing health levels, the characters could lose pieces of Who They Are, or something?

I agree.  The most literal examples of this are in The Neverending Story and MirrorMask, but you can interpret it into other stories.

QuoteThis part just leaps out at me, singing with beauty and terror. They want to possess you. (Shudder...). Because being a child is all about having no control over what you do, or where you go, or who you are -- about being, necessarily, a possession of others -- and growing up is a struggle for self-possession in the most literal sense of the world.

That is represented by the SELF stats.
Memory, Heart, Innocence and Joy.

Dropping health works for me. You just loose Self stats. It makes it easier to get lost in the land.

NPCs if they are successful can take self stats from you. Still mulling the process over. The more of the PCs they get the more powerful they get.

QuoteThere should be provisions for non-human PCs.  Otherwise, most games that stuck to the source material would only have one player and a bunch of NPCs who got way too much screen time.

I have 2 thoughts on this.

1 you can play your guide (that you have given a piece of yourself to.)
2 the common theme of this is that it is human children in these worlds the stranger the PCs are the more you loose the contrast to the land. I want it to be weird and wonderful and magical.

QuoteI don't see any need for limitations based on age.  It rings of Changeling-esque pretension, and unnecessarily limits what you could run with this game.  Neverwhere and The Rocky Horror Picture Show easily fall into this genre, and both of them have adult protagonists.

Yes this is true. And I will expand the mechanics to cater to this. There are three more aspects to this game that I want to explore in further detail after i have the core mechanic. Adults in the second land. A guides only game and one for bad children. But to begin with I want to finalise the core mechanic.

QuoteDeliria was the best attempt, but it tried to cover too much ground.

While I have not read this. I want to have the core concept strong. If it holds up then I can expand it.

For example the Bad Children could have a Power mechanic.

QuoteI just want to throw my hat in with the no randomizer idea. I actually thought of it, but didn't;t suggest it. Maybe use an effort system Like Marvel Universe?
  Something like there is a bolder in the path, and you could decide to use 5 dice of scrappy or 3 dice of clever or something else with a little imagination...

I'm still am married to a random system. I like the idea of a randomiser. I need to have a look at why I like it.

QuoteI'm still not totally sure how the game would play: could you post a quick write-up of how you see play proceeding moment by moment? What the players say, what the GM says and so on? I'm interested to know how things like Talismans and Guides actually come up in play.

This is a good question I have no strong answers to this. I see guides and talisman's as gm devices. I want there to be good guides and bad guides.

Good guides (Valentine - Mirrormask, The tin woodsman, the munchkins, Ludo - labyrinth)

Bad guides ( Most of the creatures that Alice meets)

And I definitely want to have bad guides that go good. (Mr tumnus - Narnia, The goblin in Labyrinth)

Talismans can be a magic mirror, a sword use full items.

I suppose that play would look like this.

GM - You have entered into a large round room. In the center of the room is a spiral staircase that has it's stairs on the bottom instead of the top. The floor is covered in large yellow and green splotches and a chandelier rises from the floor to the middle of the room it is also upside down. It leads to the only exit which is in the roof.

You feel very heavy and find it difficult to even move. On the far edge of the room is a small bottle suspended from the floor by what looks like a chain.

Player 1 - Why the hell did you have to choose a baron that likes to flip things. I mean pancakes are a cute idea but this is getting old.

Player 2 - My father is generous so i wanted gluttony to be the idea behind the baron so pancakes came to mind.

Player 1 - OK lets just get out of here. I need to find my dog and we have spent the last two chapters looking for your dad. I am getting low on self.

GM - what do you do.

Player 2 - OK since i haven't lost as much I will struggle across the room to get to the bottle.

GM - It is quite disorientating to walk across the room so heavy and feel like you are upside down.

(Non random version)
Player 2 - Ill use my bravery. To get across.

GM - Are you sure you will not get it back till the next chapter.

Player 2 - yeah ill burn it and cross the floor.

GM - Summoning up the courage you walk slowly across the floor. to the bottle. You approach the bottle and you notice that their is a tag hanging above it.

Player 2 - I grab the tag and read it.

GM - The writing is upside down.

Player 2 - I turn the tag right way up.

GM - the tag reads "Common Sense in a bottle - A great way to straighten things out."

Player 2 - OK so tell me again about Talismans.

GM - OK if you want to take an item from the land you must spend self points to put it in your possession. That way you are declaring the item a talisman and you can carry it around with you.

This bottle looks to have about five doses so it is fairly helpful. It may come in handy later on so it will cost you 2 self points (this will be presented as a percentage of the chapter total)

Player 2 - OK Ill take the bottle Ill give up 2 Memory.

GM - OK you have forgotten the third grade and the taste of ice cream. You pull the bottle and it comes easily off the chain. You walk courageously back to your sister with the bottle.

Player 2 - This looks like it could help.

Player 1 - I don't know that harp I grabbed in the golden forrest put us all to sleep and cost me three SELF points.

Player 2 - Unless you can fly.

Player 1 - OK.

Player 2 - I take a drink.


That same system would be similar for guides.

Quote from: Aldoth on January 03, 2006, 03:11:39 AM

QuoteDeliria was the best attempt, but it tried to cover too much ground.

While I have not read this. I want to have the core concept strong. If it holds up then I can expand it.

Oh, you should definitely look at Deliria.  That and all the other faerie games.  In this order:

Grimm (Haven't read it, but from what I understand it's the closest by far to what you're doing.)

Deliria (The second closest.  Very good generic modern fantasy RPG.  Would've been better if it and been more Gaiman and less de Lint, though.)

Exalted: the Fair Folk (Crazy, high-concept game.  I've never seen better support for characters with a totally inhuman way of thinking and interacting with the world.  Has been described as a rules-heavy Adventures of Baron Munchausen, if that piques your interest.)

Changeling: the Dreaming (Cool RPG.  Had its problems.  Could run this sort of thing if pushed.)

Dark Ages: Fae (More low fantasy than what you're trying to do, but had some very good ideas mechanics-wise.)

Have changeling the dreaming.

Where do I find the other books.

The one thing that I want to avoid is the trap of when you read books that fall into the genre you get tied into the constraints of the genre.

The point of this is that I don't want this to be a fairy game. I mean I love Fae and midsummer night's dream is my favorite plays. Also early books of magic and Sandman. But this is more about the rules of the stories that I have mentioned. If I wanted to write a faerie book I would look at the Fae's affect on the real world more.

I want this a bit broader. I want it to be more about the players creating the rules of the world (this includes the GM) instead of the world being a version of these characters that work in a certain way.

IE this is a sluagh it does this and acts this way. And then have people ask me where Puck is or why I ha vent included him in the game. Or a more obscure character that I don't know.

I want this to be a bit broader than that.

Partly because there are so many other cultures that have you can then draw on and things that you can do if you aren't just dealing with the faerie.

Hindu

Muslim

Aboriginal

Then again I could be going about this in the wrong way.

I will definitely think about it and faerie will absolutely have a place in this game.

Thanks Sluagh

I understand.  I was mainly just tossing around my fandom.  The only ones that seem truly necessary are Grimm (http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/gr01.html) and Deliria (http://www.laughingpan.com/deliria.html).  Exalted: the Fair Folk (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1588466787/qid=1136327422/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/102-0431274-2780955?n=507846&s=books&v=glance) might also be good, if only for its portrayal of inscrutable faerie tale logic.

QuoteI understand.  I was mainly just tossing around my fandom.

That is cool and I needed someone to bring up the comparison so that I  am able to answer the question you raised. What makes this different form those products. I need to be aware of what those games brings to the table and what do I bring that is different.

What I want more than anything is that you can use the game to express those fairy tales with the Fae but also go to different places. Oz, wonderland, labyrinth, Neverending Story I feel a game needs to fly those flags more than other games that are out at the moment.


The random mechanic will look a bit like this

GM - You enter a room and the floor is covered by wooden window shutters. pairs and pairs of them cover the whole floor. Some are green some are white. In the background you can hear a loud ticking sound.

Player 1 - Sigh! wooden shutters on the floor. If this is another flip flop room. Oh wait a ticking sound. Is there any pattern to the shutters.

GM - Roll your cleverness. Do you want to burn any traits?

Player 1 - Umm yeah I will spend knowledgeable. So that is three dice for cleverness and I get one success for knowledgeable. 4, 3 and five that is 7, 6 and 8 cos I add my stat to my roll. OK that is 2 great successes and 2 good successes.

GM - OK mark off Knowledge you will get that back at the start of the next chapter. The ticking sound gives you a clue you look down and you can see a glinting between some of the shutters. It is mainly the green ones that are in a giant clock face pattern.

You look closer between the slats and notice that there is something big back there. Then it hits you what you are looking at. This is one giant room full of cuckoo's the shutters must open when the clock goes off.

Player 2 - Right OK can we get back through the door we just left. I don't feel very safe in here. The whole room could go off any minute.

GM - the door behind you is stuck.

you hear a click whirring sound.

Player 1 - Crap.

Quote from: Aldoth on January 04, 2006, 12:19:06 AMThat is cool and I needed someone to bring up the comparison so that I  am able to answer the question you raised. What makes this different form those products. I need to be aware of what those games brings to the table and what do I bring that is different.

What I want more than anything is that you can use the game to express those fairy tales with the Fae but also go to different places. Oz, wonderland, labyrinth, Neverending Story I feel a game needs to fly those flags more than other games that are out at the moment.

The only games I can think of which are even in ballpark of what you're doing are Deliria and Little Fears (look it up on Amazon or RPG.net.  I'm in a hurry).  You'll want to take a look at both of them, but you're not in danger of infringing on either.

Quote from: Aldoth on January 04, 2006, 12:19:06 AMThe random mechanic will look a bit like this:

I prefer the randomless version, personally.

Quote from: Mr. Sluagh on January 04, 2006, 01:31:14 AMThe only games I can think of which are even in ballpark of what you're doing are Deliria and Little Fears (look it up on Amazon or RPG.net.  I'm in a hurry).  You'll want to take a look at both of them, but you're not in danger of infringing on either.

Scratch that.  The one game that's tried to cover this territory is Grimm, but it's d20 and much narrower in scope.  From what I've heard, it does surprisingly well for trying to shoehorn this genre into that system, though.

Thanks for the info. From looking at Grimm it doesn't really work in the same way the players have less input to the story and that is something that I wanted to have for my game.

I think that the next step for me is to start writing up the first draft of the rules. Does any one have any questions or contributions on the random/non random mechanic?

I really like this concept, and as others have said, you seem to have started off with a pretty good core. Personally, I think you should focus more on the 'human kids lost in a fantasy world' aspect rather than the standard Fae-folk stuff, and your initial draft looks good to me.

I think that you should use randomisers. d6s are fine and I like the simple roll-and-add mechanic. Fancy dice systems don't attract me unless they do something very different with it (like Dogs in the Vineyard). Also, I don't think that you need a specific combat system - it's rare to have full on tactical combat (enacted by the human kids) in the source material (Narnia, Pan, etc.) and I think adding combat rules will drag the game in the wrong direction.

That being said, I hate unopposed rolls. It's my opinion, but I think it will be more dramatic if all rolls are opposed - fights, arguments, climbing trees, everything. The opposition doesn't have to be physically present - in Narnia, I dare say that you could use the White Witch as an opponent even though they may not be present in person in the scene. And if you can't see any obvious opposition, then why not just let the player do it? (OK, this is Vincent's "Say Yes or Roll Dice" restated, but it's done a world of good for my games).

So, if I may suggest:

Roll 1d6 + Stat. Roll another 1d6 and add it on if you decided to use one of your unused traits (such as 'Angry') and the group thinks it's applicable; if you do this, mark that trait as used. If my opponent has any used traits that you think you could take advantage of (such as 'Proud'), then roll another 1d6 and add it on to your total and let your opponent mark it as unused.

I - as your opponent - does the same to generate my total. They can use their own Traits and take advantage of your unused Traits in a similar way.

You - as the PC - can spend your Imagination points to boost your total, if you think you have to.

Whoever wins can then inflict 'damage' on the loser. As Health is going - an idea I agree with, incidentally - you would lose some of your Self points (Memory, Heart, Innocence or Joy). 

This is all unplaytested, off-the-top-of-my-head ideas, but I hope it is of some help.

Looking forward to seeing this game,

Warren

So that would be the second land as the opponant. I think that if this is the case i need to beef up SLEF maybe you loose one from one of the stats at the end of the chapter instead of the one form each stat otherwise you will loose your character to the land really quickly.

Should I have 2 mechanics in the game.

One for random mechanics and one for those that they want to use non random mechanic.

OK I just thought that the characters can risk SELF to do actions of great dramatic significance if they do this it is an opposed roll and the land can roll or the baron can roll depending what the roll was effecting.

So you burn traits to add success to a roll.

I think that I will go with a random mechanic.

I will start writing the first draft tomorrow of the rules.

Oh, don't take my suggestion as the be-all and end-all! Personally, I would not support diceless system - but again, that's just me. You should go with what feels 'right' to you, and not be a slave to popular opinion and try to be "all things to all men." If that means going diceless, then so be it!

But I think that good dice systems can help. Having full-on conflict between the characters and the world (but not between the players) is good to keep everyone engaged. And I've found that people don't push as hard in diceless systems, as the risk of "Hey, you are always picking on me", and as such the conflict ending up to be between players instead, seems to high - hence it's tempting to softball it. With a diced system, you can just look to the dice and think "Hey - that's the way things go" and I think that allows people can push the conflicts that much harder, and IMHO, that provides better play.

Vincent Baker has put all of this much clearer than I could ever hope to. Look to the bottom article (Resolution, Why?) on Vincent's Roleplaying Theory, Hardcore (http://www.lumpley.com/hardcore.html) page. The rest of the page is worth reading too, if you haven't already.

Warren

Hi Aldoth,

As a game recommendation: you definitely, definitely ought to read The Shadow of Yesterday (http://www.anvilwerks.com/?The-Shadow-of-Yesterday). Firstly, it does a lot of things you're talking about: for example, letting the players design the world rather than the GM; and handling "opposed" and "unopposed" rolls. And it's set in a sort of ethereal fantasy setting.

Secondly, there's a lot of theory talked about on this site, and Shadow of Yesterday explains it really well.

Thanks for posting the example of play. Just to point out: you've put lots of power in the hands of the GM. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but there's other ways to do it. For example, when the GM says:

Quote from: Aldoth on January 03, 2006, 03:11:39 AM
GM - OK you have forgotten the third grade and the taste of ice cream.

...could you have the player choose what they forget? Perhaps the player could make a list, at the start, of things that really matter to the character. Then they'd have to choose what to sacrifice.

And generally, it looks as though the GM has designed a world which the players discover. When you say:

Quote from: Aldoth on January 03, 2006, 03:11:39 AM
Player 2 - This looks like it could help.

Player 1 - I don't know that harp I grabbed in the golden forrest put us all to sleep and cost me three SELF points.

Is it true that the GM decides what the harp did? There's different ways you could handle this, if you wanted to. For example, you could do this...

Player 1: I grab the harp and play it. I'm trying to play a magical tune that reminds me of who I am.

[Player 1 rolls some sort of dice. Let's say he rolls a failure of some sort.]

GM: All right, so you don't remember who you are. What happens?

Player 1: Say, I go to sleep?

GM: OK, the harp starts to sing and you feel yourself drifting away. When you wake up...

Or again, you could handle it like stakes in The Shadow of Yesterday:

Player 1: I grab the harp and play it. I'm trying to play a magical tune that reminds me of who I am.

GM: OK, fine, but if you fail, you're going to send everyone to sleep.

[Player 1 rolls some sort of dice. Failure.]

Player 1: So we're asleep.

GM: Yes you are. When you wake up...

Long post, but I hope it's of some help. None of these are definite suggestions, but I'm just saying there's other avenues you could explore, if you wanted.

Graham

Agreed. For a game about dream-like experiences especially, it's very dangerous to give the GM authority to threaten or take away important things without the player having any recourse -- I'd find it really frustrating to have the GM say, "you play the harp? Well, it puts you to sleep" or "You want to get out? Well, the door locks behind you." The player should know what they're risking, at least in general terms (as in "I give up 2 Memory," "Okay, you lose 3rd grade and the taste of ice cream") and have power to affect the outcome.

You really need to check out some games that do this "stakes-setting" very clearly, because traditional RPGs are terrible at it, and often outright encourage the GM to spring nasty surprises on the players without giving them any power to affect the situation. I personally would suggest

1) Ron Edwards's Trollbabe
2) Vincent Baker's Dogs in the Vineyard
3) Tony Lower-Basch's Capes, of which a free demo version is available at Tony's site (http://www.museoffire.com/Games/downloads.html).

I'd also suggest checking out the free online version of Legends of Alyria (http://alyria.blogspot.com/) to see a nontraditional approach to a dream-like world.

Just a random idea; have you considered defining characters according to their failings rather than their virtues?  Bastian Balthazar Bux is interesting because of his cowardice and later, his hubris, not the sentiment that helps him overcome them.  In MirrorMask, Helena's defining trait is her submissiveness, not the courage that eventually helps her triumph.  Dorothy's naïvete moves the story along, not the savvy she develops in the end.  Just a thought.

Im looking at the characters in a posative light. Bastion overcomes those traits to be sucessful as does Helana they get lost but then there beacon and remembering it helps them escape. sometimes with the help of there guide.

Having negative traits the define you instead of your vurtues is problematic and you starts a slippery slope for the characters.

I feel like I should give you a thank you credit Sluagh :)

Quote from: Aldoth on January 04, 2006, 08:10:21 PM
Im looking at the characters in a posative light. Bastion overcomes those traits to be sucessful as does Helana they get lost but then there beacon and remembering it helps them escape. sometimes with the help of there guide.

It wouldn't be showing them in a negative light.  It would be showing them as people with problems that they work through and eventually triumph over.  I think this is how most characters in these stories are portrayed.

Perhaps characters could begin with a Folly, which starts high, and a Grace, which starts low.  There would be other traits to interact with them and make things interesting.  Over the course of the game, a player would try to lower their character's Folly and raise their Grace.  Might look a litttle like Nicotine Girls, if you're familiar with that. 

Quote from: Aldoth on January 04, 2006, 08:10:21 PMHaving negative traits the define you instead of your vurtues is problematic and you starts a slippery slope for the characters.

I think if you worked at it, you could set it up so it wouldn't.  I'll admit that these ideas are vague at the moment, but with some effort I think it could work.

Just an idea.  You can take it or leave it, but I thought it needed clarifying.

Quote from: Aldoth on January 04, 2006, 08:10:21 PMI feel like I should give you a thank you credit Sluagh :)

Thanks!  I love this genre, and I think you have some great ideas for putting it into an RPG.