The Forge Archives

Modern occult games are one of my favorite types of design.  I loves 'em. 

Anyhow, here's another.

I'm re-reading Barker's Great and Secret Show (and recalling other Barker novels and stories I've enjoyed the hell out of), and I just read Powers' Declare (and recalling other Powers novels I've enjoyed the hell out of).  I got to thinking about the occult, about initiations, about synchronicity, about potential occult power VS actualized power, about the human capacity for violence and the dread of the supernatural, and about initiations, changes in essential nature.  About overcoming essential human limitations which are on their flipside essential human qualities.  About cheating your way to enlightenment- about Stealing Heaven.

Limits:

I only have pseudo-code for the game mechanics so far, but my basic design goals is to within a fairly narrative framework, try and sim some elements of human psychology you don't often see in game designs- basically, how empathy acts as a limiter on human capacity for violence, sanity on human capacity to accept the supernatural, and Peace as a limiter on the scope of ambition.  The flipside, lower empathy makes it harder to relate to people, sanity makes it harder to deal with reality, and peace makes it harder to take satisfaction in your accomplishments. 

Mechanically, Empathy acts to limit violence- with situations lowering natural resistance to doing harm to another human (escalation, disassociation, dehumanization, mod-mentality...).  Empathy acts as a max on social interaction with other people.

Mechanically, Sanity acts to limit magic- with situations lowering natural dread of the supernatural (familiarity, mythology, beauty...).  Sanity acts as a max on perception and many basic practical functions. 

Mechanically, Peace acts to limit ambition- with situations lowering natural tendency towards stasis and satisfaction (motivation mostly...).  Peace acts as a max on plotting, scheming, and the formulation of Designs by which to further your occult agenda.


A rough pseudo-system to illustrate what I mean.

You meet a man who claims to have a translation of a pre-Columbian tablet detailing a clue to the Great Work- and a key element in one of your Designs.  However, he stalls and stonewalls, trying to get more money for the thing.  You decide to apply some violence to the situation, wanting immediate results- and engage in a physical assault.  Right off, the situation has to be analyzed to a certain extent.  What are you going for here?  You want to hurt him a little, and scare him a lot.  You aren't trying to maim him, and you aren't really trying to kill him.  You just want to sucker-punch him to incapacitate him, and slam him back against the fly-specked wall. 

Your Empathy is 4 (out of 10)- you've done and seen quite a lot of violence in your time. 

The Escalation for the scene starts at 0- you are initiating the violence, and if it continues for additional clashes, Escalation will increase... also, using weapons or being especially abusive will bump the Escalation up. 

You are alone, so there is no modification either way for witnesses or cohorts. 

The smuggler isn't especially inhuman- he's just a wormy little guy- so you don't get any kind of modifier, unless you actively degrade and dehumanize him first (or you witness something that does the same), so this produces a +2 modifier. 

You aren't trying from a cold start to maim or kill, so it is somewhat easier to engage in violence, producing a -1 modifier. 

In the first clash, your Hesitation (the total of Empathy and situational mods) is 5.  This represents your hesitation and reluctance to inflict injury on this guy.  Lower Hesitation means things can leap to deadly combat quickly- and if one party has lower Hesitation than the other, then they have a major advantage when it comes to dishing out the pain. 

With whatever resolution scheme I end up with, this 5 acts as a cap on the amount of harm you can do- it represents a 'holding back' as basic human instinct kicks in and stays your hand somewhat... limiting the amount and severity of the damage you can bring yourself to inflict.  You may be capable of inflicting more based on your skills and abilities, but this limits how much and how fast you can do it (as Hesitation works as a negative modifier to order-of-action-resolution). 

It would work the same when doing magic- Sanity (which is the basis for a derived circumstantial total analogous to Hesitation which is called Dread) caps the mechanical outcome, even if your skill with the occult might allow you greater power. 


Magic:

Magic works in the setting.  The Uninitiated work with ritual and metaphor and mostly bullshit.  Their magic- if it works at all- manifests as synchronous benefits or boons.  Nothing overtly supernatural, but results which would allow a magician to cheat at life, to gain advantage over others, and generally do better.  Magic isn't an especially nice pursuit.

Initiates, however, have undergone a transformative occult rite of passage- often a formal initiation into some hidden Mystery tradition or order, but not always... spontaneous Initiates are not unknown, and some devise their own initiation.  Initiates are, in some ways, not really human anymore.  They are halfway between blindness and vision- the proverbial one-eyed men in the land of the blind.  They can see enough of the true nature of reality to almost painfully hunger for more, for clearer sight, for more awareness, for purer power.  However, they are still bound to human concerns, and some limitations... sanity, empathy, and peace all drag them back.  Crazies make some of the most powerful Initiates, but they are disorganized, and their insights slip through their fingers.  Losing all your humanity denies you perspective on what you seek to acquire- the Great Work.  The purification of the self.  Enlightenment.  What the hell ever.  What you're trying to do is steal grace, to pick the locks on the pearly gates and enter Paradise with your Human loves and hates and hungers in tact, so you can really appreciate the hell out of it.  You're a big cosmic bastard, when you get right down to it.

And sometimes, Heaven fights back.

Initiates have their Tricks though- their powers in the moment... spells, potencies, investments of occult potential.  Initiation also makes you very very very hard to kill in some subtle ways.  You can bleed, you can hurt, you can wish to die, but baring some special circumstances, you need not concern yourself with such mundane things as death.  Which isn't to say you don't hunger- your body still sweats and hungers and lusts.  You are still flesh- and that's part of what you hope to preserve when you complete your Work, and finally see clear to whatever lies beyond.

Will you achieve enlightenment and find you don't have enough humanity left to give a shit about it?

Will you be destroyed in its pursuit?

Or will you steal into Heaven as a thief in the night, and walk the golden streets with muddy sneakers?


Basic system considerations...

I'm not sure.  I don't know if I want a simple roll/add, a dice pool, a single die over/under blackjack kind of thing... just not sure yet.  I need to play with some different schemes and see which best works to the 'limitations' thing best.


-Ben

 

I don't realy see how character are suposed to progress spiritualy in a mechanical sens (if that even makes sense), and what that 'progression' amounts to. Also I would have said that initiation makes you more human, not less because it makes you a more complete spiritual being.

Also the way you've described Empathy (including in the example) people with more empathy can do more damage, but are also better at social skills. Something wrong here.

Simon Hibbs

Quote from: simon_hibbs on March 10, 2006, 02:04:46 PM
I don't realy see how character are suposed to progress spiritualy in a mechanical sens (if that even makes sense), and what that 'progression' amounts to. Also I would have said that initiation makes you more human, not less because it makes you a more complete spiritual being.

Also the way you've described Empathy (including in the example) people with more empathy can do more damage, but are also better at social skills. Something wrong here.

Simon Hibbs

The example isn't super-clear because I don't have the mechanical vectors worked out- basically, Empathy would cap damage in inverse proportion... which is to say, the lower your Empathy, the higher your base damage- with circumstances allowing this to increase to murderous levels.

I could reverse it, rather than describe 'Empathy' as a stat, I could change it to 'malice' and as it increased, so would your base potential for harm (but it would act as a penalty to your socilization).  Sorry about the confusion.

Initiation is something of a glass-half-full.  It depends on how you look at it, but given the general stance of the game (the the title), its about being a cosmic bastard.  Who wants to spend their lives in meditation, spiritual persuits, and self-denial in order to acheive enlightenment?  Screw that noise- I'm taking it.  I'm ripping reality's nuts off with my teeth, and making the universe my bitch.  I'm stealing heaven from the hands of the worthy.  I'm a bad man.

-B

Ben,

This sounds very interesting. I'm not sure quite where you want feedback, so can I throw some random ideas and questions at you?

Firstly, your Empathy / Damage thing, where having more empathy stops you doing damage, reminds me of Shock (in which, as I remember, attributes are defined as a sliding scale between two opposites). Could you do something similar? Have a scale with "Caring" at one end and "Psychopathic" at the other?

Secondly, I'd like to see some sort of feedback in the mechanics, so that if you try to do damage, your Empathy is likely to drop. (For example, for every six you roll, you do more damage but your empathy drops permanently. That sort of thing.)

Thirdly, as a character loses humanity, would you like it to become easier for the character to lose even more humanity (in a slippery slope sort of way) or harder (making it difficult for characters to be either totally inhuman or totally saintly)?

Graham

You have some interesting ideas here. A game that is inspired by Clive Barker can not go wrong.

But I would really like to know what the character actually do in this game. You are talking about scheming, plotting and the formulating of Design (what is this?), but it is a little vague.

And in what situations does Empathy, Sanity and Peace change value? What should the players do to change them?

- Anders

Hello,

The conflict within the character is interesting. That you have a sliding scale will make it easy for the players to understand the conflict. I see that it may be possible to be powerful enough in your game to have everything, but on the verge of collapse. There are two points that stand out for me:

1) The immediate inverse in the attributes doesn't strike me as realistic. Most people seem to have low values in either end of the scale.

2) The attributes don't quite show opposites in an obvious way.

Here's something that may work for you. Keep the attributes of Empathy, Sanity and Peace. Place two abstract descriptors and two stats on each end of the scale.

           Empathy
Friendly          Hateful
Insight            Aggression
            Sanity
Reasonable     Deluded
Perception       Mysticism
            Peace
Calm               Egotistical
Serenity          Trickery

The character has 10 points to place in each area. Example: 8 points could go to Insight and 2 points to Aggression. The character is mostly friendly but does have a temper under certain circumstances. With 4 in Perception and 6 in Mysticism, the character's life is steeped in magic and this clouds his reasoning. Having 1 in Serenity and 9 in Trickery has this character constantly scheming to get ahead.

As a character develops power, the three areas can have more than 10 points, possibly having 6 in Perception and 8 in Mysticism. The character gains power when performing great deeds. A character of that power could be a formidable sorcerer. Having more than 10 points can create an imbalance that may unsettle the character.

Time for bed.

Troy

Thanks everyone- here are some thoughts and refinements...

Designs
Basically formalized scheming intended to further an Initiate's occult goals- plots, plans, and dirty deals.  Designs are the main route to more occult power- and the eventual possibility of victory conditions... of storming paradise.  Shorter term, they let Initiates via for power and control of the occult underworld of weirdos, psychics, ritualists, cultists, crazies, and the shadowy agents of the Power Eliets- politicians, the military, big biz. 

Limits
I like the idea of a sliding scale between two poles... for the limit scores, but I can't really think how to make use of it... I think I can get the same utility with a cleaner design using a single score which implies its oposite by adding to some actions and penalizing others.  'Malice' forming the basis for your capacity to do harm and take the initiative.  'Insanity' for working magic.  Ambition for fomenting schemes and manipulation.  Malice would penalize positive socilization, Insanity would penalize mundane perceptions, Ambition would penalize... hmm...  its a tough one...

Divide 10 points at start, increase or decrease based on experience and choice. 

The idea is that the morality is front-loaded rather than back-end.  You don't make a Humanity check when you kick someone into an undustrial sausage press and watch them ground into hot dogs... rather you are unable to take it that far without some serious provocations.  Its about the question "what would it take for you to kill a man?"  If your Malice is really high, it wouldn't take a hell of a lot.  If your Malice is low, it would take a great deal.

To really leverage this, it needs to dovetail with some kind of scene/conflict structure in which these provacations to greater and greater violence/magic/ambition can be tracked.

One simple way to work it mechanically might be a basic roll-and-add scheme, with the Limits  acting as max totals or the base limit stats subtracting from the oposite kind of roll... but roll/add might not be indie enough ;)

Thanks for keeping me thinking... more as it comes to me.

-B

Quote
Designs
Basically formalized scheming intended to further an Initiate's occult goals- plots, plans, and dirty deals.  Designs are the main route to more occult power- and the eventual possibility of victory conditions... of storming paradise.  Shorter term, they let Initiates via for power and control of the occult underworld of weirdos, psychics, ritualists, cultists, crazies, and the shadowy agents of the Power Eliets- politicians, the military, big biz.

This began to make me think. I do not know is this fit to your game, but here it is anyway.

All event in the world could have some occult significant. Mostly this is not noticed, because these events is normally very random of nature, so they cancel out each other. The Initiated will try to direct these events with magic, political power, or by influencing them directly (physically). When the Initiated have aligned a certain number of these event, something big will happen, that can be used as an entry to paradise.

It may not be obvious what event that need to be directed, to create the right occult condition, but the Initiated will know it intuitively. He may suddenly 'know' that he have to kill his boss to set the right events in motion, and it is then a problem, if he is not able to do it. Then things may fall apart.

When all event is align correctly, it should properly be the players job to tell what happen.

- Anders

Quote from: Anders Larsen on March 11, 2006, 10:34:54 AM

Quote
Designs
Basically formalized scheming intended to further an Initiate's occult goals- plots, plans, and dirty deals.  Designs are the main route to more occult power- and the eventual possibility of victory conditions... of storming paradise.  Shorter term, they let Initiates via for power and control of the occult underworld of weirdos, psychics, ritualists, cultists, crazies, and the shadowy agents of the Power Eliets- politicians, the military, big biz.

This began to make me think. I do not know is this fit to your game, but here it is anyway.

All event in the world could have some occult significant. Mostly this is not noticed, because these events is normally very random of nature, so they cancel out each other. The Initiated will try to direct these events with magic, political power, or by influencing them directly (physically). When the Initiated have aligned a certain number of these event, something big will happen, that can be used as an entry to paradise.

It may not be obvious what event that need to be directed, to create the right occult condition, but the Initiated will know it intuitively. He may suddenly 'know' that he have to kill his boss to set the right events in motion, and it is then a problem, if he is not able to do it. Then things may fall apart.

When all event is align correctly, it should properly be the players job to tell what happen.

- Anders

YES!  You nailed it- plucking thoughts right from my brain.

The idea is, to the Initiated, EVERYTHING has occult significance- they can work the kind of synchronous manipulations uninitiated magicians ritually (and unreliably) produce with a thought and act of will- part of the reason Initiates are so hard to out-and-out kill, is a circumstances conspire to make it impossible... the bullet glances off their skull rather than shattering it... they are thrown clear of the wreck... they roll with your brick-cracking Meth fueled punches.  A magician could do the same thing- but not without hours of ritual, symbolism, and sweat- all attempting to create a 'seed crystal' of circumstances which will ripple out into the world, creating the desired result.

An Initiate just does it.

Designs are like a magician's rituals, but on a grand scheme- rather than sacred spaces or personal shinres, you use political campaigns or professional Baseball.  Rather than sanctified daggers and candles, you use actors in the next Hollywood summer noise-fest and bags of pure cocain.  Its like doing a magical ritual on a massive scale- with the stakes dramatically higher.  You have to be a bit of a bastard to do this kind of thing.

-B

Quote from: Bailywolf on March 11, 2006, 04:54:35 PM

The idea is, to the Initiated, EVERYTHING has occult significance- they can work the kind of synchronous manipulations uninitiated magicians ritually (and unreliably) produce with a thought and act of will- part of the reason Initiates are so hard to out-and-out kill, is a circumstances conspire to make it impossible... the bullet glances off their skull rather than shattering it... they are thrown clear of the wreck... they roll with your brick-cracking Meth fueled punches.  A magician could do the same thing- but not without hours of ritual, symbolism, and sweat- all attempting to create a 'seed crystal' of circumstances which will ripple out into the world, creating the desired result.

An Initiate just does it.

Designs are like a magician's rituals, but on a grand scheme- rather than sacred spaces or personal shinres, you use political campaigns or professional Baseball.  Rather than sanctified daggers and candles, you use actors in the next Hollywood summer noise-fest and bags of pure cocain.  Its like doing a magical ritual on a massive scale- with the stakes dramatically higher.  You have to be a bit of a bastard to do this kind of thing.

-B

Ah, so magic in this setting is subtle-but-powerful stuff: no fireballs, but the poor shit you target will die when his house burns down around him. Is that what you're going for? And presumably, the question isn't so much whether you succeed, but what that success cost you, correct? Will there be a fallout mechanic to reflect this?

Your Designs gives me an impression of a Reality Shaping battle between the Fair Folk of Exalted mated with Unknown Armies. "I'll use my Cocaine-Fueled Hollywood Action-Fest Involving Islamic Fundamentalist Vampires With Tom Wait's 'You're Innocent When You Dream' In The Soundtrack to counteract your Democratic Party Uprising Fueled By Wiretapping and Lobbying  Scandals, thus insuring the War in Iraq continues and my connections in government rise in power. This will insure that I get first access to ancient records involving The Great Work in that region! Mwuahahahahahaaa!" Is that what you're going for? I'm curious: how will players/GMs be able to judge how effective Designs are when they go against each other? Or will that default to a roll against/of Empathy, Sanity, or Peace? I would lobby for a mix of certain memes/tropes giving definite bonuses, and flourishes giving extra bonuses, mixed with an attribute roll based on the Initiate's raw power and Sanity/lack thereof.

Pretty much nailed it... I was kicking around how you might extrapolate a magical ritual into a Design...

Say you do semi classical Western ritual magic, then get Initiated.  You have a Sacred Space- say the Movie Industry.  You have a ritual blade- a movie producer you are manipulating.  You have a wand- a director.  You have a Cup- a photogenic movie star.  You have sacrements- lots of cocain to put into the Cup.  You have an Alter- the movie studio.  You have an Auspicious Time- the summe blockbuster release schedule.  You have the Ritual- the making of the film itself.  And you have the Outcome- changing the collective consciousness of the United States in a meaningful way. 

Each Element of the Design requires specifc action to acquire and place, then you have to make sure the Design plays out when it becomes active.

Its a lot of work- but Initiates don't just work with powerful synchronisity- they also have their tricks.  Specific unnatural powers- investments of occult potential.  Crazy Charlie Manson Eyes that let you use your Malice as a bonus to persuasion and intimidation rather than a penalty.  The ability to conjure unnatrual allies to aid you, and grant you the advantage of numbers, letting you overcome your limits easier.  Looping time.  Folding space like origami.  Seeing sins.  Breathing death onto your enemy's faces.  Commanding the flesh.  Wounding the spirit. 

Each Initiate trades something of flexibility for these tricks, but they are potent things, and vital when furthering a Design.

-B

Quote
Say you do semi classical Western ritual magic, then get Initiated.  You have a Sacred Space- say the Movie Industry.  You have a ritual blade- a movie producer you are manipulating.  You have a wand- a director.  You have a Cup- a photogenic movie star.  You have sacrements- lots of cocain to put into the Cup.  You have an Alter- the movie studio.  You have an Auspicious Time- the summe blockbuster release schedule.  You have the Ritual- the making of the film itself.  And you have the Outcome- changing the collective consciousness of the United States in a meaningful way.

I am curious how you are going to make rules that handle this. Is the Cup, Wand, Sword etc. something that is defined in the rules, and then it have to be decided what real world object/people they are associated with. But who or what decides this?  And then it is possible to work with these real world object, as if they where magical tool. But what decide what you should do, for them to have an effect? How many event (and how big) should an Initiated make happen, before the gate to paradise will open?

I am thinking of some kind of scale of transcending. Every time the Initiated make some meaningful event happen, he will transcend on step up the scale, and when he reach the top, he have reached the gates. Of course the higher you are the longer there is to fall down.

I know it may be a little to early to ask for rules. But I am actually quite interest in these kind of ideas, but I have never really thought they could work in a game.

- Anders

It's intresting you ask about that- I was just toying with the formalized Design concepts... each element has a function within the desing, and I need to decide how I want to do it... to pick an occult system from the RW and expand it to larger scope, or to make it more general... 'the insturment' and 'the catalyst' and 'the weapon' and 'the motivator'...

Also, Levels of Initiation.

A new Initiate can percieve (and thus manipulate) the occult currents only in a local way- within his immediate circle of perception and influence.  Within his own community.  As he gains new levels of Initiation, his Tricks become more profound, and he can percieve the occult currents on a larger and larger scale... eventually being able to formulate a Global design- for similar stakes.

Lower ranked Initiates often find themselves working in cabals- to expand their 'range' and to counter the Designs of more advanced solo Initiates.  This is the basic excuse for a player ground... the alternative is more of a player VS player battle.

Mechanics... I'm torn between trying for something functional and simple (d10+mods VS diff or opposed roll) or something funky (die ladder of d4-d20 w/ multiple dice in a pool of different types... limits determine die type, ability determines number of dice...).

-B 

It sounds to me like the two core mechanics you're thinking about are:
1)The character stats/task resolution system, where the basic concept seems to be that you can have supernatural effectiveness OR be a normal person who's good at doing normal things, but not both. 

Unknown Armies and Kult are both games with magic systems built around this idea.

2) Designs -- how you make them, how you counter them.  This is definitely the more interesting of the two concepts for me -- I'm a big Kenneth Hite fan, so the ability to create and control weird conspiracies and occult axes of power is intriguing.  I think you could make a very interesting game just based around this idea and mechanic: the PC's have enough mojo to make some Designs and to detect the Designs of others that encroach on them and their turf. 

The PC's then automatically have something to do and a reason to do it: they want to develop and defend their own Designs, and keep other magicians from messing them or their neighborhood up by incorporating them into a different, alien Design. 

I've never seen a game that does this well, so I'd love you to write one.  :)  I also would encourage you to let everything else be driven by the Design mechanic you come up with.  It seems more interesting to me to have a generalized kind of Design magic which, in a given game, could look like battling neighborhood Voudouns, or Satanic cult members, or UFO contactees.  In other words, I've already seen a zillion different types of magic systems in RPGs, but I've rarely seen a good magic toolkit. 

Quote
It's intresting you ask about that- I was just toying with the formalized Design concepts... each element has a function within the desing, and I need to decide how I want to do it... to pick an occult system from the RW and expand it to larger scope, or to make it more general... 'the insturment' and 'the catalyst' and 'the weapon' and 'the motivator'...

I don't know if you know anything about real world magic, so I may not be telling you anything new here. But is you don't know about this, it may be useful for your game. So here is how a real world ritual is (or can be) done:

The ritual area consist of a circle on the floor wherein you have the alter and the four magical tools: Cup (water), Sword (air), Wand (fire), Disc (sometime called pentacle) (earth). The room should be decorated with symbols that is related to the energy you want to use.

The procedure is:

1) Doing the banishing ritual to clear the area of any bad influence (this part may not be so interesting in a rpg).

2) Call forth the energy of the four elements to empower the area.

3) Now the magician begin to call on the energy that is specific needed for this ritual. This is typecally planetary energy: If the ritual is about romance, Venus is used. If it is about finance, Mercury is used. Is it is about power, Jupiter is used etc.. It can also be energy from different "pagan" gods and entities.

4) The magician channel the energy into an object that represent (symbolic) what he want with the ritual. It can be a piece if paper with symbols on, or it can be a clay figure, or something else. (in the game this should properly not be an object).

5) At the end it is necessary to dispel all the unwanted energy. This is done by going through the banishing ritual once more.

Real world magic work in a way that is only notable for the magician. If you make a ritual with the intention of getting more money, it may come about with a salary rise, or a friend suddenly remember that he owns you money. But here the magician should be careful, because it may happen that his parents get killed in a car crash, and he inhered the money.

A magician typically asks the tarot card, if something bad will come out of the ritual.

... Hope you can use this.

- Anders

Quote from: Bailywolf on March 12, 2006, 08:44:21 PMMechanics... I'm torn between trying for something functional and simple (d10+mods VS diff or opposed roll) or something funky (die ladder of d4-d20 w/ multiple dice in a pool of different types... limits determine die type, ability determines number of dice...).

-B 

See, I thought a bit about that, and I might suggest some creative borrowing from With Great Power.

Use Cards. Hearts represents people, emotions, living things, creativity bearing fruit. Diamonds represents material fortune (gold diamonds, money, striking oil, etc.) Based on your Sanity, Empathy, or Peace, you get X many cards to set up a design. The opposite is true for your Spades (War, hatred, murder, apathy, human error or stupidity) and Clubs (Omen Surprise!--natural disaster, anvil/sharp piece of glass falls on head, lightning strike, etc.): those are based on your Insanity, Malice, or Ambition.

Set up the ritual like you've previously outlined: Sacred Space, Chalice, Dagger, etc. The player has to fill the ritual based on his  suit: If he's trying to set up an outrageous yet possible accidental death, a la Omen, he needs to fill each ritual spot with clubs. The opposing party (GM or player) needs to counter his actions with Diamonds (good material fortune). Each side lays down a card, and each card must be higher than the last. Whoever lays down the last/highest card wins the Design; each card layed down becomes his suit, and the player must describe the effect of his ritual, or the opposer must describe how it backfires.

Each filled spot is turned into points (how many points based on the basic Attribute score), and each point is either used to secure the goals of the ritual, or can be siphoned to the player for use as good fortune during the next Design/counter-Design.

Just some thoughts. This might mean that a sufficiently talented newbie might be able to pull off a Global Design, but odds are s/he'll be useless for anything else. Player cooperation should still be in order.

Just some thoughts. I really like everything else I've seen so far. 

I like where this is going and it opens up questions about the powerful people in history and today. What if the most powerful, celebrated and infamous characters in history were involved in some form of the occult? Not just the dark side of it, but also with the divine. This could give true motive and justification to organized religions, cults, covens, the freemasons, etc. So, is their a good and evil side to all this, or just shades of grey? When people retain tremendous power, does absolute power corrupt absolutely. That could be a real challenge in your game. How do you seek ascendence quickly through world manipulation and still be pure?

I can see how a design is planned to create an alignment of juxtaposing or opposite forces through real-world events. To do this involves a great number of people. Retaining those people to execute the design (even unwittingly) requires you to give them what they want. Part of the character's power may be measured in terms of political influence, disposable wealth, charisma, bartering secrets, private membership and occult knowledge. Imparting those resources to the willing enables you to direct the actions of many. They may or may not be successful, and you lose the power regardless. Its a gamble and the stakes are high.

I see this kind of machination common in high society, political arenas, celebrity spotlights, the well-to-do and also with the persuasive small-town seer and holy men. Each is crafting his own design and using his ways to get what he wants.

A possible use of the Tarot deck is to base the execution of the design on the major arcana. The major arcana is described as a complete path in life and each step (card) describes an important challenge/awakening in one's life. The first card is The Fool and is the child-like free spirit in everyone. Most people never pass this step, remaining in an ignorant (yet blissful) state until death. The next card is The Magician and represents the beginnings of true adult power of will and consciousness--the first step in your initiation. Now, a complete reading is done for the character and it really is the representation of his life. Use the Celtic cross layout and you have 10 cards to define the character's life with regards to ascension. Don't draw the last card as it is the outcome. The card desired by all is The World as it represents the last step in the life path. With The Fool and The Magician completed, the character draws a new card from the deck at the culmination of the design. If it isn't The World then there are new challenges and design complications in store. I don't see that a character can work on one design and its going to work immediately--even after a year.

The reading done for the character, defines the character in occult terms. Use the card meanings to create a story for the character.

The unique thing about the Tarot deck is that each character has their own deck. As cards are drawn and revealed, they are never used again. When the same card is drawn by two different characters then there may be a potential for mutual benefit or conflict. The possibility of this happening is remote, but there can be tremendous forces coming to bear when it does.

As a character brings powerful forces into play, excecuting the design, he draws a card to represent the event. If The World card is drawn then the character receives a taste of what is yet to come and receives some power. The World card is returned to the deck as it only is final when the outcome of the design is in question. As challenges and events are completed, the design becomes more powerful and the character is able to excute steps more quickly.

Since there are 78 cards in the deck, 11 are initially used, there will be only 67 cards remaining. If a character uses 1 card per step in the design, the chances of succeeding are increased but not guaranteed. Of course, there must be desciptions of the cards in terms of your game and how they affect play. I'm looking at my deck and it is conceivable to use the descriptions as they are (including reverse meanings) while the suits determine the power area, court cards are the people involved and the major arcana are news-worthy events that could potentially affect all characters.

Troy

I actually hadn't considered cards yet... hmm... cards might be a good medium for this... they can provide a lot of information (number, color, suit, face. wild), and can be manipulated in intresting ways...  give me a couple of hours on this.

QuoteI like where this is going and it opens up questions about the powerful people in history and today. What if the most powerful, celebrated and infamous characters in history were involved in some form of the occult?

Close... except rather than be involved in the occult, they are elements in an occult desing.  Initiates like to play a game when reading history- they look at the circumstances of history, and try and figure who and what are parts of some other Initiate's design, and what its purpose was.  It's the kind of thing can make you paranoide- did Hitler rise in power because he was a mad charasmatic little man ariving just when his society was ready for such a thing?  Or was he some Initiate's Sword, ready to sweep the Circle of Europe clean of all opposed influences in preperation for the real Design to get underway.

Designs would map pretty well to RW ritual magic traditions- I may pick a standard one to keep things simple, or players may define the Elements and how they relate to each other.  Remember, manipulating the oil company, the price of crude, the War on Terror, and the US President isn't the goal of a Desing- those things are the ritual elements which produce another effect- generally something which can vault an Initiate into a higher order of power. 

-B

Quick question...  I'm not trying to cook a generic magic toolkit game, rather I want to boil some common elements out of RW ritual magic traditions (be they religious, secular, nature-based or whatever), and give them easy to remember names and easy to understand functions within a Design.   Also, how the Elements relate to the desired outcome of the Design. 

In formulating a Design, Elements are Ordered- based on how they act and interact, they are arranged so that they function in particular ways in relation to each other, thus defining the nature of the outcome.  Sometimes, this is linier- one Element leads into another.  Other times, they interact in more complex ways, in pentacles or patterns of interaction.  Formulating a design involves deciding on how the Elements interact, defining the elements, and then manipulating them in the proper way to facilitate the desired outcome.  The last part will make up the bulk of Design game play.

Here is what I am currently thinking for Elements:

Circle- defines the ritual space; the arena in which the other Elements play out their interactions.  The final Effect extends beyond the circle.  Examples- the Movie Industry, St. Mary's Hospital, Dwightville, the Five-Points location of Jittery Joe's Coffee.

Sword- defines the element which severs, cuts, or destroys, or commands that such things be done.  Generally done to make way for something new, but sometimes the Sword is the prime Elements in a Design.  Examples- a movie producer, a mercy killer nurse, a crusading sheriff, a new manager. 

Chalice- defines the womb from which something new will be born or created- the element which precipitates change.  Examples- the movie studio, a pregnant woman, the new downtown bypass project,  a new menu.   

Wand- defines the directing principle, that which governs or directs.  The genius behind a thing.  Can be used to direct, or to thwart direction.  Examples- A talented director, a new head of Internal Medicine, the mayor, the long-time employee. 

Star- defines the raw materials, the energy, the stuff which will be worked with- the unpatterned potential, or the chaos left after an unraveling.  Examples- a talented up-and-coming actor, the unborn child, Dwightville's economic prosperity, Jittery Joe's loyal customers. 

Elements within a design either oppose or promote one another, and a given desired outcome determines how the Elements are ordered.  Designs intended to gain you a new rank of Initiation would work a bit differently. 

Alright... and example.

You're an Initiate- a fairly recent one- and the scope of your occult perception doesn't extend very far yet... you're limited to an "area" (defined as a combination of how many people and how much stuff you can affect) of about the size of a Wal-Mart store.  Say, an area a mile on the side, about a thousand people, and a time span of a month.

While buying cat food, you get an inkling of something... an active Design in this very Wal-Mart!  To gain further information, you need to prepare a Divination to scry out the nature of this Design and its Designer. 

Divination is a linier Design- Sword to purge the Circle of noise, allowing you to receive the desired occult signal.  Wand to 'tune' in the desired signal.  Chalice to receive the signal.  And Star to become the signal codified into a perceptible message.   

The Circle is defined based on your best guess as to the other Design's circle- this Wal-Mart. 

The Sword you choose is a harried middle manager who will fire any employees who might generate any psychic or synchronous static due to unrealized occult potential. 

The Wand is the store's HR manager who will interview and hire new people.

The Chalice is the pool of applicants for the job.

The Star is a message formed from the letters in the names of those hired which will describe the other Initiate, and the purpose of his Design.

Each Element must be separately manipulated to make the Design successful, and each involves at least one Scene (and perhaps more) played out.  Designs take as long as they take- and sometimes, players can take longer, run additional scenes, and build up really impressive roll-over success to make their Designs especially potent.  Other times, when the clock is ticking, they might find they have to cut corners to make it work, using direct and brutal methods to move their Elements into the correct alignment. 

-B

I have a few thing I have thought about.

There really should be an enemy, someone that don't like what the Initiated are doing and try to counter it (I think that someone mention this somewhere in this thread, but I can not find it now). And because the Initiated want into paradise, it must be the representative of heaven, that tries to stop him. And an representative of heaven is angles.

Of course angles cannot just come down and kill a person, they are governed by rules like so many other creatures, so they have to be more subtle.


What Troy mentioned about tarot card is a really good idea. You can use the major arcana as a scale for how the initiated rise to transcendent; starting with The Fool, and ending with The Universe. The minor arcana, that represent the different state of the elements, can show how you can control the elements.

ex. you draw a number of cards from the minor arcana. These card show what elements you right now can control and how. If you have the 'seven of cups', you can lay that down and induce 'misuse of feelings' into the water element. If you have 'four of stars' you can induce 'wealth' into the earth element. And of course, if you turn the card on there head, they do the opposite. When you can draw new card and how many can depend on the reward you get.

Every time you have made a Design, you will get a new major arcana to you collection, until you have collected all 22. And maybe you can scarify on of the major arcana to get more power in the moment. Then you have to get it again, but it may be necessary is an angel is after you.

btw, Why does the initiated want to "steal heaven". What do they expect when they get there?

- Anders

Quote from: Anders Larsen on March 14, 2006, 11:51:05 AM
I have a few thing I have thought about.

There really should be an enemy, someone that don't like what the Initiated are doing and try to counter it (I think that someone mention this somewhere in this thread, but I can not find it now). And because the Initiated want into paradise, it must be the representative of heaven, that tries to stop him. And an representative of heaven is angles.


btw, Why does the initiated want to "steal heaven". What do they expect when they get there?

An enemy... oh yeah, there sure is.  The 'Heaven' of the title isn't the heaven of anybody's religion- all contain pieces of the truth, but none the entirety.  Its... perfection, grace, transcendence... its whatever an Initiate desires more than anything else in the world- even if those desires are unspoken.   But it has its guardians- orders and cults dedicated to preserving it from Human despoilers... and its enemies- those dedicated to dragging it down and destroying it.  The opposition is most other Initiates, wise (or foolish) depending on your point of view, who seek to prevent others from breaking the Celestial Egg and lapping up the bright yellow yolk of godhood.  Sometimes with counter-designs, and sometimes with a bullet in the face. 

And then there is the Enemy, and every religion in the world contains echoes of this as well.  The Enemy wants to simply end us, to drag the human world down into a sewer of chaos and madness and suffering.  And sometimes, because the ambitions of Initiates can sometimes open a way for it, the Enemy seeks to aid you whether you want it or not.

All initiate seekers are driven by some core inadequacy- manifest at the point of no return for them as a Sin.  Some kind of act which irrevocably sets them on the path that peruse.  An opportunity squandered... a crime committed.  The Sin is a goad, driving Initiates on. 

It's a game about bad people.

-B

Card Mechanics:

While I like the idea of using Tarot... as a player and designer, I like as few barriers between getting the game and playing it.  I like designs that use d6's and d10's as most gamers have piles of these.  Regular playing cards are nice too- cheap enough for everyone to have a deck, and easy enough to get at the grocery store.  Tarot decks are kind of pricy, and harder to come by. 

If I go with cards, I'd use a standard poker deck I think, if only to keep the costs down.

-Ben

Quote from: Bailywolf on March 14, 2006, 12:16:50 PM


Card Mechanics:

While I like the idea of using Tarot... as a player and designer, I like as few barriers between getting the game and playing it.  I like designs that use d6's and d10's as most gamers have piles of these.  Regular playing cards are nice too- cheap enough for everyone to have a deck, and easy enough to get at the grocery store.  Tarot decks are kind of pricy, and harder to come by. 

If I go with cards, I'd use a standard poker deck I think, if only to keep the costs down.

-Ben

I've been following this thread for awhile now and just wanted to throw in my two cents. If you do try a card based system, or cards and dice, maybe there is room for both, i.e. here are the rules for with Tarot Cards and here is its playing card equivalent. As for accessibility I think all the big book stores now have a New Age section. Tarot Decks can be pricey, most decks I've seen are about 15 dollars or more some are upwards of 50 or more. Good luck with the game, I look forward to seeing how it develops.

Quote from: Bailywolf on March 14, 2006, 09:39:39 AM
Here is what I am currently thinking for Elements:

Circle- defines the ritual space; the arena in which the other Elements play out their interactions.  The final Effect extends beyond the circle.  Examples- the Movie Industry, St. Mary's Hospital, Dwightville, the Five-Points location of Jittery Joe's Coffee.

Sword- defines the element which severs, cuts, or destroys, or commands that such things be done.  Generally done to make way for something new, but sometimes the Sword is the prime Elements in a Design.  Examples- a movie producer, a mercy killer nurse, a crusading sheriff, a new manager. 

Chalice- defines the womb from which something new will be born or created- the element which precipitates change.  Examples- the movie studio, a pregnant woman, the new downtown bypass project,  a new menu.   

Wand- defines the directing principle, that which governs or directs.  The genius behind a thing.  Can be used to direct, or to thwart direction.  Examples- A talented director, a new head of Internal Medicine, the mayor, the long-time employee. 

Star- defines the raw materials, the energy, the stuff which will be worked with- the unpatterned potential, or the chaos left after an unraveling.  Examples- a talented up-and-coming actor, the unborn child, Dwightville's economic prosperity, Jittery Joe's loyal customers. 

Elements within a design either oppose or promote one another, and a given desired outcome determines how the Elements are ordered.  Designs intended to gain you a new rank of Initiation would work a bit differently. 

...

Each Element must be separately manipulated to make the Design successful, and each involves at least one Scene (and perhaps more) played out.  Designs take as long as they take- and sometimes, players can take longer, run additional scenes, and build up really impressive roll-over success to make their Designs especially potent.  Other times, when the clock is ticking, they might find they have to cut corners to make it work, using direct and brutal methods to move their Elements into the correct alignment.

Hmm...Two questions. Is it possible in this game, in order to insure completion of the Design, to take Flawed elements into the design, guaranteeing that it will do it's job, but there will be fallout/"unforseen complications?"

Also, if you wouldn't mind, an example I'm sure almost everyone is familiar with: The Omen 666 movies. Is Damien working Designs, or is he under the protection of a (powerful) Design himself, which is why people end up dead around him?

Quote from: Bailywolf on March 14, 2006, 09:39:39 AM

The Circle is defined based on your best guess as to the other Design's circle- this Wal-Mart. 

The Sword you choose is a harried middle manager who will fire any employees who might generate any psychic or synchronous static due to unrealized occult potential. 

The Wand is the store's HR manager who will interview and hire new people.

The Chalice is the pool of applicants for the job.

The Star is a message formed from the letters in the names of those hired which will describe the other Initiate, and the purpose of his Design.

Each Element must be separately manipulated to make the Design successful, and each involves at least one Scene (and perhaps more) played out.  Designs take as long as they take- and sometimes, players can take longer, run additional scenes, and build up really impressive roll-over success to make their Designs especially potent.  Other times, when the clock is ticking, they might find they have to cut corners to make it work, using direct and brutal methods to move their Elements into the correct alignment. 

This example is really very cool!  I can see the interaction of the two systems that I mentioned before -- each Element is its own task, with its own potential for complications and challenges, and also fits into the greater meta-task of the Design.  This also reminds me a bit of Sorcerer's Contact-Summon-Bind mechanics. 

One question: who decides what the "correct" alignment is, or if Elements have been properly manipulated?  Is this entirely up to the agreement of GM and player, according to the setting and theme of the particular game, or will you have a more prescriptive approach? 

I'm interested in whether you get more points for destructive tampering.  For example, would the divining ritual be more effective if the Initiatewas somehow screwing up the operations of the Wal-Mart, or would it be less effective?  Or does the Adept have any control over the effect he has on this Wal-Mart's operation.

Quote from: Spooky Fanboy on March 14, 2006, 05:32:06 PM


Hmm...Two questions. Is it possible in this game, in order to insure completion of the Design, to take Flawed elements into the design, guaranteeing that it will do it's job, but there will be fallout/"unforseen complications?"

Also, if you wouldn't mind, an example I'm sure almost everyone is familiar with: The Omen 666 movies. Is Damien working Designs, or is he under the protection of a (powerful) Design himself, which is why people end up dead around him?

The way I have designs thunk out is still quite plastic, but the assumption is that if you sort of hose one Element but don't totally blow it, you can complete the Design (with reduced over all effect) by picking up the slack on later Elements.  They are more like tasks to be done than things to be taken... which is to say, when you define them, you establish (or they imply) a course of action- something your character needs to do to properly move that element into position relative to the next one.

In Omen... it could go either way, but I'd be inclined to say that Damien is someone's Sword, and he's clearing the Circle for the main event.

-B

Quote from: Danny_K on March 14, 2006, 06:59:08 PM

This example is really very cool!  I can see the interaction of the two systems that I mentioned before -- each Element is its own task, with its own potential for complications and challenges, and also fits into the greater meta-task of the Design.  This also reminds me a bit of Sorcerer's Contact-Summon-Bind mechanics. 

One question: who decides what the "correct" alignment is, or if Elements have been properly manipulated?  Is this entirely up to the agreement of GM and player, according to the setting and theme of the particular game, or will you have a more prescriptive approach? 

I'm interested in whether you get more points for destructive tampering.  For example, would the divining ritual be more effective if the Initiatewas somehow screwing up the operations of the Wal-Mart, or would it be less effective?  Or does the Adept have any control over the effect he has on this Wal-Mart's operation.

I've been thinking about this a bit... I don't know if there is any practical way to do the alignment of a Design more complex than a line... and without some real mechanical effect ( a link between types of effects and the arrangement of the elements perhaps), there isn't much point.  Arrange them in sequence, than work the Design in that order. 

Here's the real dirty secret of Designs, and where they break from the more conventional magical rituals- what happens to the Elements of your Design don't really matter.  Initiates callously manipulate the world around them, pushing and prodding people into the proper synchronous alignment.  Generally, they don't much care what happens to the Wal-Mart or the HR manager- they are just components... like candles or a chalked circle on a sanctum floor.  If the candles melt down to nubs, or the circle gets scuffed... who cares?  In the end, the magic works, and that's the important bit.

Now the kick- because of Limits, the un-calloused Initiate benefits by taking the harder path of gentle persuasion and tries to minimize the harm done... so his efforts aren't overly hampered by his own humanity.  The initiate far gone into depravity and malice has a real advantage- he can strongarm his Elements, and force them into alignment.  Working faster and harder.  But... he's a real prick on the side.

-B

Quote from: Bailywolf on March 14, 2006, 12:14:32 PM

And then there is the Enemy, and every religion in the world contains echoes of this as well.  The Enemy wants to simply end us, to drag the human world down into a sewer of chaos and madness and suffering.  And sometimes, because the ambitions of Initiates can sometimes open a way for it, the Enemy seeks to aid you whether you want it or not.

Hmm. Here's a thought: Perhaps an Initiate can succeed at a design that might otherwise have botched or failed---if he takes certain "debt" (however that manifests) from the Enemy. How that "debt" manifests, I don't know...but it should be visible in some way, either a mark, lowered Positive Attributes, or some side effect (negative) from the Initiate's Designs.

Quote from: Spooky Fanboy on March 16, 2006, 04:10:47 PM

Quote from: Bailywolf on March 14, 2006, 12:14:32 PM

And then there is the Enemy, and every religion in the world contains echoes of this as well.  The Enemy wants to simply end us, to drag the human world down into a sewer of chaos and madness and suffering.  And sometimes, because the ambitions of Initiates can sometimes open a way for it, the Enemy seeks to aid you whether you want it or not.

Hmm. Here's a thought: Perhaps an Initiate can succeed at a design that might otherwise have botched or failed---if he takes certain "debt" (however that manifests) from the Enemy. How that "debt" manifests, I don't know...but it should be visible in some way, either a mark, lowered Positive Attributes, or some side effect (negative) from the Initiate's Designs.

That's a total Yoink right there.  Something like Conspiracy of Shadows' Doom concept.

-B

Quote from: Bailywolf on March 17, 2006, 07:33:24 AM

That's a total Yoink right there.  Something like Conspiracy of Shadows' Doom concept.

-B

If you borrow it, may I make a suggestion? Like the Demons of Dogs in the Vineyard, give The Enemy no personality. Let it be, if It's visible at all, a distortion of the Initiate that It's taken over. Different aspects of the Enemy manifest depending on who channels It.

Also, the more I think aobut it:

Let there be two systems for the game: dice rolling for the struggles to set the elements of a Design in order, but use Cards to show how many Elements are filled in. Once all of them are filled, the Design works, and the character narrates the result. Several Designs could be kept up and running, but then it starts to divide the character's supply of cards...and makes it easy for others to block or pervert the Design.

Also, here's a fun idea: Malice, Ambition, and Insanity show how much oomph the Designs have, how effective they are. But let's throw in a twist to say that Designs to boost one's Scale (how much of an are one can effect) are based on Sanity, Empathy, etc. the opposites of your "effectiveness" traits. You have to move in harmony with The Great Work to understand it; the more you move with it, the more it opens itself up to you. So it ppays to restrain yourself and work on your good side.

Is there a way around that, so that you can move up while being as much of a prick as you can be? Sure, but it requires a contract with The Enemy. Just sign right here, ignore where it says "soul", that's a typo...

whoo. very very cool. my ideas?

* love the 3-stats-only. keep it simple, keep it clean. there's enough conceptually to wrestle with (& that's a Good THing) that the less distraction & clutter the better. You could name the opposite axes, but why? If the mechanics are clear and simple, there'll be no need. And I think you'll really really want clear simple mechanics to make this soar in play the way it does when you describe it here.

* love those 3 stats being 'the good', ie Empathy, Peace, Sanity (or whatever, the exact names aren't so important. You can tweak those). Why? Well for one, who wants to run a character defined by Malice, Anger and Insanity? I say go with the good--its more of a jolt when the player's gotta try to diminish them as they play. Incrementally, it starts to sink in. But go for the cosy surburban idyll, before slowly parting the curtains on the seething, crawling morass beneath.

* The reduction of all your character scores also fits with the whole Stolen Enlightenment: the reduction of self to 0, represented visibly by those shrinking scores. Your scores thus become a powerful and exceedingly visible metaphor for the goal of the game. Because that's what its all about, right? To get close enough to the vanishing point to be able to scale Heaven's walls, while keeping back whatever you can of what you must by rights give up entirely--and still pulling it off.

* If you go with cards or dice, my advice is stick to one method only. Be ruthless in the leanness of your mechanics. Pare away the complexity wherever you can. There will be enough to juggle (for you to write & explain, & for players to understand & implement) with Designs and strangeness and and the whole conceptual richness of it all.

and.. whoo. very VERY cool.

good luck!

charles

Looks like another cool Bailywolf setting, grats!

Random thought inspired by reading this: identity is a key issue in this game. If you know the true nature of something, you have power over it. And if anything understands your true nature, they have power over you!

To enter heaven 'legitimately' you have to erase all trace of your individuality and identity. From the human perspective, this sucks: you get to go to heaven, but it's not really you going there, you've just become what heaven wants you to be. The protagonists effectively are saying "screw that".

Just as Heaven wants to erase your identity, the Enemy wants to erase your actual existence. You're causght in the middle. have a nice day.

Mechanical impact of this? Cool Initiate powers are an expression of your individualism, and refusal to accept the metaphysical status quo. However, this makes you a target, as you are (a) sticking your head above the parapet and (b) giving away a clue to your true nature, which makes it easier for other Initiates to manipulate you.

(Which also conveniently explains a lot of the secret society mumbo-jumbo - it's the occult equivalent of the Witness Protection Scheme.)

Hope you find this useful, and I await more details with great interest.