Ok, I'll give a bit of overview for anyone not familiar with my game. 'The Beast Within' is a modern game based around the hidden battle between human and demons. In the game there are three factions: Hunters, Marked, and Demons. Hunters are the humans that oppose the demons and devote their lives to hunting demons. Even though they are only human they make up for this by using specialized weapons and gadgets to fight demons. The Marked are those humans who have been infected by a demonic soul. These humans possess superhuman powers but the more often they use their powers the stronger their demonic soul becomes until it overthrows the human soul and they become a full-fledged demon. Demons are exactly that. They possess incredible powers but the energy they use to power these powers is derived from the evil they cause in the world. Basically, causing evil to demons is the equivalent of eating food for humans.
I've also got a basic rule set fleshed out but I need some inspiration for each of the groups.
Hunters
Hunters are defined by the cool weaponry and gadgets they have so I want to have loads of stuff for them. I'm thinking about organizing everything into equipment trees where the hunter has to make minor gadgets in a given area before he can make the really powerful stuff. I can think of plenty of normal things that they can make but I haven't been able to think of anything really unique for them. Basically, let me know of any gadgets or weapons you think should be included in the game for the Hunters.
Marked and Demons
I have well over 100 powers for the Marked and the Demons from my Superhero game so I don't need much help there. Where I do need help is I want there to be distinct clans of demons based on the founding demon of each clan. What clan a Demon or a Marked's demonic soul belongs to affects their power selection (and for Demons it determines what evil acts they need to perform to regain energy.) I'd like to draw off already established mythology for the founding demons but I've founding information on them rather lacking. I have plenty of demon names but no information really on which demon specializes in which areas. Most of the research I've seen just talks about how many legions of demons they control and what their title is. Basically, I want input on which demon should be the 'Demon of Suduction' and which should be the 'Demon of Violence.' Additionally, I'd also like some input what clans should be included. I know I want a clan that focuses on seducing and tempting mortals as well as a clan that focuses on violence, death, and destruction but my ideas are slim after that.
So yeah, this is basically just a call for ideas to help get my creative juices flowing again. Any help is appreciated.
Quote from: Elishar on April 02, 2006, 11:19:26 PM
Marked and Demons
I have well over 100 powers for the Marked and the Demons from my Superhero game so I don't need much help there. Where I do need help is I want there to be distinct clans of demons based on the founding demon of each clan. What clan a Demon or a Marked's demonic soul belongs to affects their power selection (and for Demons it determines what evil acts they need to perform to regain energy.) I'd like to draw off already established mythology for the founding demons but I've founding information on them rather lacking. I have plenty of demon names but no information really on which demon specializes in which areas. Most of the research I've seen just talks about how many legions of demons they control and what their title is. Basically, I want input on which demon should be the 'Demon of Suduction' and which should be the 'Demon of Violence.' Additionally, I'd also like some input what clans should be included. I know I want a clan that focuses on seducing and tempting mortals as well as a clan that focuses on violence, death, and destruction but my ideas are slim after that.
There is a lot more mythological information on gods than are on demons. So, why don't you take your favorite mythology (say, Greco-Roman), and "invert" each god to make them evil and into a demon-prince.
For example, Aphrodite could be turned to the demoness of lust. Change her name and distort the symbols and powers associated with the goddess. If you change enough and don't give away your inspirations, it should seem original. Your spread of gods should give you a decent spread of demons and associated powers.
Quote from: Elishar on April 02, 2006, 11:19:26 PM
Where I do need help is I want there to be distinct clans of demons based on the founding demon of each clan.
Why?
I don't wish to be seen as clueless, but I would like to give advice that will actually help you reach the design goal that you're aiming for with the demon clans. So I'd like to know what that goal is. Why do you want to detail them at all?
Now, for instance, old-style White Wolf games (to my mind) use clans as a way of sublimating the natural desire to fit in with a group into a powerful driver that helps players to identify with social archetypes that are custom-made to interact with each other in interesting ways. Which is why game-play worked nicely with the original clans, and went straight to hell when people start mixing Toreadors with Cattlemites, or whatever the newest free-standing clan-of-the-week was.
But if you were aiming for that sort of balance then you'd probably be asking different questions, like "What archetypes do you think are powerful enough to warrant write-up as a clan? How will players interact with each other through the lens of those archetypes?" and so on.
Frankly, since you're asking "Help me fill out my clans," as if it's
obvious that you need them, I worry that you don't know your own design goal, and so you're just trying to imitate what you've seen in previous games, without first figuring out why the previous games did it, or asking yourself whether the same tool is what you need for your different game.
But if you can give us some sense of what direction you're trying to head with your demon clans then I can put that worry behind me, and we can all do a better job of helping you brainstorm.
Quote from: TonyLB on April 03, 2006, 12:59:10 AM
Quote from: Elishar on April 02, 2006, 11:19:26 PM
Where I do need help is I want there to be distinct clans of demons based on the founding demon of each clan.
Why?
I don't wish to be seen as clueless, but I would like to give advice that will actually help you reach the design goal that you're aiming for with the demon clans. So I'd like to know what that goal is. Why do you want to detail them at all?
Now, for instance, old-style White Wolf games (to my mind) use clans as a way of sublimating the natural desire to fit in with a group into a powerful driver that helps players to identify with social archetypes that are custom-made to interact with each other in interesting ways. Which is why game-play worked nicely with the original clans, and went straight to hell when people start mixing Toreadors with Cattlemites, or whatever the newest free-standing clan-of-the-week was.
But if you were aiming for that sort of balance then you'd probably be asking different questions, like "What archetypes do you think are powerful enough to warrant write-up as a clan? How will players interact with each other through the lens of those archetypes?" and so on.
Frankly, since you're asking "Help me fill out my clans," as if it's obvious that you need them, I worry that you don't know your own design goal, and so you're just trying to imitate what you've seen in previous games, without first figuring out why the previous games did it, or asking yourself whether the same tool is what you need for your different game.
But if you can give us some sense of what direction you're trying to head with your demon clans then I can put that worry behind me, and we can all do a better job of helping you brainstorm.
My reason for demonic clans is both for role-playing and gameplay reasons.
Role-Playing:-To establish some sort of order and society among the demons.
-To make demonic bloodline an important part of the game.
-To create inter-demon struggle and conflict (otherwise the demons would be pretty unstopable.)
-To provide the character with a more defined sense of purpose in spreading evil.
-To better differentiate between one demon and another.
Gameplay:-To provide different but specific ways as to how demons can regain energy depending on how the player wants to play their character.
-To allow the demon to have a better chance at rolling for a specific type of power (powers are randomly rolled for in the game.)
I'm looking more for a general worldview for each clan. Basically their prime methods as to how the human world should be made into another hell. One clan may see the best way to corrupt the world is through temptation and seduction while another might see violence, death, and despair as a quick way to break the backs of humans. Each of these clans is going to approach the human "problem" in completely different ways and these ways might end up conflicting one another, which results in demonic battles or even all-out wars between clans. Additionally, these demonic clans will have a completely different focus as far as power emphasis, skills, and attributes.
Hi!
I am with Tony. I think not having a pattern or discernable organization or human-like standards will set them apart from their human adversaries.
So, what makes them evil? Their method of leadership should represent their evilness. If its might makes right, than they will rule by test of combat, etc. You know, maybe come up with a Demon domination system that walks the GM through making different organizations on the fly? And then make a few pre-baked ones for those days when the GM does not have time to prep it up.
You know, set them fully apart. Humans are organized, motivated and focused on killing Demons. Demons are self-centered and and only care about their hungers or drives. Something like that?
Quote from: Elishar on April 03, 2006, 02:29:25 AM
Each of these clans is going to approach the human "problem" in completely different ways and these ways might end up conflicting one another, which results in demonic battles or even all-out wars between clans.
Is that what the game is about? Is that what the players are supposed to pursue?
For any information/inspiration, wikipedia is your friend. Here are some interesting pages on demons:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demons
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_demonology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_demons
The lesser Key of Solomon, will properly also be a good source of inspiration.
- Anders
By the way, maybe the reason why you can't find proper information on demons, is that demons is something completely different than you expect. 'Demon' was the word the christians typically used for deities in other religions/mythologies.
Many of the entities that is called demons are actually not evil. Some of them give you knowledge about science, and other can find you true love. Even many of the 'demons' in nicronomicon (and yes, necronomicon is much older than Lovecraft), is actually beings that are very helpful. But there are also descried evil beings in necronomicon, like Pazuzu, Tiamath, Xastur etc. So, there could be some inspiration.
- Anders
Elishar,
After reading the posts, I think your question about demon clans can be answered from your first post. You stress the importance of power and that could be your delineation. The human soul is a combination of all sorts of powers, desires, flaws, etc. The demon soul seems fixated on power and the need to have more and better powers.
Its possible that there are no demon rulers in your game but a demon who has the most power of a given type. I don't see all the categories and powers in your game. Once you define all of that, you may have your demon groups. The ultimate desire of the demon is to be the most powerful. Methodically, the demon must be the most potent in every power group. That may or may not happen; therefore, you will encounter demons who are exceptionally powerful with a particular group. The Fire Demon. The Demon of Seduction. The Demon of Unsavory Knowledge. The Demon of War.
That also can give you a great story about who demons are. They may not be a separate race but are really transformed humans from the beginning. Twisted humans are no longer recognizable and have taken on the essence of demons. Humans who strive for power at any cost. Whereas the ascended are humans who strive for virtue. That places emphasis on pure ideals and powers. As a distinct virtue or power grows based on its most potent follower, the world is steered toward the ideal it represents. As the follower of that power grows, the other aspects of his being are shed. That's the price of power.
Your power categories are important in they must be balanced. Just as an average human is an amalgamation of everything human, the powers could be everything about a particular aspect of being human. Humanity taken to the extreme can appear very demonic. So, the ideas and activities involving knowledge, reproduction, eating, sleeping, socializing, emotion, creativity, protection and war could be taken to a new level. And the demon gains power with the proliferation of those aspects. That definitely ties in with world events, where each of those aspects is elevated, demonstrated and advertised to the point of obsession. The best university. The best fertility clinic. The most hot dogs eaten in one sitting. Intoxication to the point of unconsciousness. Valium. Celebrity awards. Group therapy sessions (religion?) Mass housing developments. Military defense. Post-justified attacks on foreign countries.
Where was I going with this?
Demons are transformed humans. This could easily explain the powerful "monsters" in history and today. Were Alexander the Great and Genghis Khan demons? What about W. Bush and Kim Jong Il? Along with demons you could have humans who have ascended beyond the need for this power struggle: Nostradamus, Da Vinci, Einstein, Pope John Paul II (could be a demon) and Mother Theresa. Demon clans could be based on real world activities taken to the extreme. The extreme power manifests itself in the form of supernatural effects. Some powers are synergistic while others are diametrically opposed. This gives you your balance.
Hitler could have been a demon whose need to create the perfect race extended to eliminating others. Also, the "salute" is really an exposure of the palm, showing the invisible pentagram only demons can see.
Time for a nap.
Troy
Quote from: Anders Larsen on April 03, 2006, 07:44:36 PM
By the way, maybe the reason why you can't find proper information on demons, is that demons is something completely different than you expect. 'Demon' was the word the christians typically used for deities in other religions/mythologies.
Many of the entities that is called demons are actually not evil. Some of them give you knowledge about science, and other can find you true love. Even many of the 'demons' in nicronomicon (and yes, necronomicon is much older than Lovecraft), is actually beings that are very helpful. But there are also descried evil beings in necronomicon, like Pazuzu, Tiamath, Xastur etc. So, there could be some inspiration.
- Anders
First, let me tell you that Wikipedia can lead you astray, but unless your players know too much then it'll be ok.
Gods as Demons can fit, because let's face it, many of the known "Demons" are actually 'foreign' Deities. Astaroth is Ishtar. Baal is the Marduch/God equivalent on the Caanite/Mesopotomian side. Dagon is the Plistine god, specifically of fishing and so on and so forth. Tiamat is Marduch's mother(IIRC), she is referred to as "The Great Beast" or some such in the beginning of Genesis, or The Great Crocodile, some such, so she may be more fitting for demonic influence.
Daemon helps you less, that is, the old description of Demon/Devil as "Spirit", or "Nature Spirit", which existed until the 4th Century where the motif of Singular and Evil Evil started being spread by some Christians.
In the end, just take some well-known names, In Nomine may provide a good place to start.
Troy, a nice idea, very very much like Nobilis.
Though, anything taken to an extreme could be "Evil" or "Good". Maybe Mother Theresa just wanted to be The Best Nun, or to gain Celebrity through Piety. Maybe Einstein wanted to be further Knowledge or Science as you said. Maybe Hitler wanted to stop civil unrest, but just happened to use War as his path?
Where do you put the line? Motivation? Need people who will pick the real Motivation, not the one more fitting their desired goal OOCly, or maybe it'd work either way.
Interesting ideas everyone, keep them coming.
I think I need to explain my vision for my game better though. The Marked do not ask for their power. They aren't power-hungry individuals who wish to attain perfection. They are unwilling recruits into the Demonic horde, twisted souls who have been given incredible power but at an incredible cost. It is very possible that a Marked character decides that he won't ever use his powers out of fear that he will turn into a Demon and simply continues with his normal life. That could make a very interesting campaign in my mind. What if he sees that he could save someone's life with his powers? Does he risk his humanity to save another? What if some hunters find him using special equipment that can detect demonic souls? Does he use his powers to fight them off or escape? The main thing I'm going for with the Marked is that they are very conflicted and I don't think the idea Troy presented is compatible with that vision.
Clans for demons just make sense to me. Originally, there were only a few demons. How they came to be is a secret lost to time. Each of these demons then placed their demonic seed inside humans to create more of their kind. Like how a parent shares the same DNA with a child, the new demon created shares the same essence as the demon that created it. So, as the demons increased in numbers clans formed based on the demon that "fathered" the clan.
Clans also serve a more important purpose: survival. A weak demon wouldn't last long if they didn't swear fealty to a greater demon and fall under their protection, especially because the only way demons gain power is consuming the essence of other demons. Likewise, a demon lord sees his creation (that is, demons created with his demonic seed) as the perfection of demonkind so he will only accept the fealty of those who were fathered by either him or other demons that were fathered by him. The demon lord might occasionally employ another demon outside of his clan as a spy or a specialist but these cases are few and far between.
I have looked through my various occult books and grimoires. I found this information in Grimorium Verum (1517).
There are three superior spirits (demons and other entity is called spirits in occult texts):
Lucifer, the rebel angel, reside in Europe and Asia, manifest himself as a beautiful boy.
Beelzebuth, lord of flies (I guess it refers to decay), reside in Africa, appears in grotesque and distorted forms.
Astaroth, lord of perverse eroticism, appears as human with ink black skin.
Below each superior spirits are two inferior spirits:
Below Lucifer are Satanachia and Agalierap.
Below Beelzebuth are Tarchmache and Fleruty.
Below Asteroth are Sagatana and Nesbiros.
Satanachia govern fifty-four demons, four of whom are Serguthy, Heramael, Trimasel and Sustugriel. These demons can aid the magician if they are pleased with him.
I can not find descriptions on the other inferior spirits.
Other demos are under the power of Duke Syrach. Some interesting are:
Clauneck, power over goods, money and finance.
Musisin, power over powerful people.
Bechard, power over wind and weather.
Frimost, power over wives and maids and will help thee to enjoy them.
Klepoth, brings dreams and visions.
Khil, power over earthquakes.
Mersilde, power of teleportation.
Sirchade, power over animals.
Frucissiere, brings dead to life.
Guland, causes diseases.
Surgat, opens all locks
Morail, power of invisibility.
Well, i don't know if this is useful. At least you now have a lot of names.
- Anders
Just to bring Semantics up, because it IS important in Occultism, and you may want to introduce True Names to your games.
See, Eroticism for "Astaroth", Ishtar.
Beelzebub is Baal Zvuv, Zvuv means "Fly", the insect, in Hebrew.
That's actually exactly what I was looking for. I probably won't use the big three because they are so often used. The Demons under Duke Syrach are very helpful but their powers are a bit specific. I probably couldn't use them for head demons but I could definitely use them as high ranking demons in each clan who specialize in a specific power.
The six inferior spirits could make good clan leaders, do you have any more info on them?
Elishar,
Do some research. Read the Bible. The Internet is at your fingertips.
I just realized why everyone thinks they have the ultimate RPG game (or just game) that is better and more unique than any other game: because no one takes the time to READ, play related games out there or does the minimal research to explore the subject of their game.
Check out Nobilis, In Nomine, Call of Cthulhu, Nephilim, D&D (when it was really good), Vampire, Werewolf, Mage, Stormbringer, Chill and Kult. There are plenty of games that can do exactly what you want to do. Just pick one and enjoy it.
Troy
p.s. Was it me typing or the Devil?
Specifically Demon: the Fallen, Hunter, Werewolf and Mage from White-Wolf. Vampire mostly for politics.
The problems with grimoires and other old occult texts, is that they are not very descriptive, and they can even contradict each other. So it have not been possible for me to find more information on the different spirits in the books.
But on wikipedia I found descriptions on Agaliarept (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agaliarept) and Satanachia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanachia). The other inferior spirits are not described there. I also found a list of demons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_demons) and classification of demons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classification_of_demons).
The spirits from the Lesser Key of Solomon the King can also be found online here: http://www.deliriumsrealm.com/delirium/demon_goetia.asp. And these can be very interesting.
But while all this can be good inspiration, I don't think that you should use it too directly in your game. In a game I would believe it works better if the demonic hierarchy is dynamic, so demons can gain and lose power. And it may affect the Marked when 'his demon' changes place in the hierarchy.
Maybe the demon hierarchy have something to do with real world events. So what the Marked do in the real world can affect the demons which then can affect the Marked.
- Anders
Troy:
Yeah, don't talk to me like I'm a child. If you have something constructive, say it respectfully or don't post in my thread. I'm obviously posting in this tread because I've already check out all the sources I can find and have come up pretty empty handed so I've turned to the collective wisdom of the forum. I've already read the Bible and I don't want to skim through the 1000+ pages again to find a few isolated references to what I'm looking for. Let's be reasonable here. I've already played Vampire, Mage, Cthulu, Werewolf, and D&D. Where do you think I got my inspiration from? Seriously, don't talk when you obviously don't have a clue who you're talking to.
I'm fine with constructive criticism about my game or its design but when you personally attack me you've crossed the line.
Anders:
Oh, I plan on making demon society very dynamic. I'm just looking for some mythological references for the founding demons of each clan. I'd like to be true to mythology but it seems that there isn't much info to go on and what we do have is very vague or even contradictory at times. I already saw the list of demons and it didn't really provide me with anything except a few names I could possibly use. However, I'd like to use the names properly. For instance, I don't want to name my demon of violence the name of a demon normally associated with corruption or temptation.
Elishar,
I apologize for posting that reply. I'm simply amazed that you cannot find the information you wanted and I judged that too quickly. I coupled that with your posts which was general in wanting demon clans (because they make sense?) without giving us specifics of your game and what you have already researched. You're giving us your version of how you think people are "marked" by demon DNA and there seems to be no real world reference to that. The lack of information you provide but your need for it from the members hit me the wrong way. Anders and other members have provided you with great information and it is important that you give something back.
Of course I don't know you, so please, don't take all of this personally.
The constructive part:
The idea of demons is older than organized religions and involves nature more than a celestial realm.
http://demons.monstrous.com/origin_of_the_devil.htm
The Old and New Testaments give information on angels and demons. This explains the hierarchy and organization of heaven in terms that people understand.
http://www.heart7.net/spirit/aapp1.html
More information on angels and organization.
http://www.heart7.net/spirit/aapp2.html
You will notice that most angelic names have Hebrew origins and the name is actually defined. Demon names could have their origins in Hebrew, Unk, Sumerian, Russian, Chinese, and the list goes on. Apparently, demons (or the myths surrounding manifested spirits) exist in all early cultures.
http://fast.horrorseek.com/horror/adoptademon/demonnames.html
http://www.angelsghosts.com/underworld_demons.html
http://www.raven-glass.com/vlad/demon.html
Some people believe that the world is influenced directly by witches and demons. Witches could be "marked". A link showing one organization of hell and how each division is responsible for certain aspects of the world.
http://www.cuttingedge.org/ce1062.html
Even the word demon comes from the Greek word "daemon" meaning "genius and intelligence". Review the discussions of philosophers concerning daemons and their roles.
http://www.theandros.com/daemon.html
With all of this information you may be able to create your clans of demons. There are various versions of demons, names and hierarchies. You can choose to use one or all of them. Its possible that the confusion and skepticism surrounding demons is part of the demonic agenda. All of this is mythology and changes along with civilization throughout history. That could be an explanation for the dynamic clans. As demon "princes" take seats of power, they reorganize the hierarchy just as feudal societies do. Its possible with the new millennium there is a new demon coming to power and its goal is to follow in the footsteps of human society. The new structure matches the advances in human civilization and is more able to affect the real world. The marked are now more susceptible to the demon presence and there is a surge in power among them.
I doubt you will find an ultimate source that gives you exactly what you need. As you do more research you may find that you need to change your game to make it mythologically accurate.
Troy
That information was helpful but most of it seemed to be word for word copies of other sites I have seen. The internet, as amazing as it is, has a lot of regurgitation in it. I appreciate all the links though.
I'm thinking that I'm not going to find what I'm looking for if I haven't found it yet. Perhaps a better way to organize the clans would be based on type of demon instead of the demon that founded them. Off the top of my head I can think of two clans already: Succubi (temping demons) and Mephits (elemental control demons.) I could easily mine my Monster Manual for more names but that seems a bit uncreative from my point of view. I spent some type searching on demon types but I mainly just got more of the same regurgitated lists and about 1,000 pages dealing on demonic possession.
If anyone has any other general groups of demons that they know of off the top of their head let me know. I'm thinking of including Babau (assassin demons) and Balors (brute demons) as clans as well but I haven't decided yet.
I'll say it again. Look into In Nomine.
Thunder,
I agree with you in referencing In Nomine. It provides the most succint view of Heaven, Hell, angels, demons and the structure of politics and power. I miss my copy.
Elishar,
Many of the links don't have a table of information, but the demon entries often have descriptions of their domain and relationships with other demons. If you use a tree structure for your information you may be able to create a hierarchy that could suit your needs.
I found this link to have a lot of information:
http://www.raven-glass.com/vlad/
Of course, it is someone's personal website dedicated to gaming interests. The owner took the time to research demons and compile a very comprehensive list. I found it very complete and useful.
Troy
I'll see if I can track down a copy of In Nomine.
I spend a couple hours looking through demon names and started trying to organize them but I quickly ended up with 15+ demons all with the same powers. Meanwhile, I couldn't seem to find demons in other areas. Some of the entries were very useful but most ended up being "he commands ____ legions in hell and holds the title of _____." That's all nice but it isn't what I'm looking for.
I think that ultimately I will want to flesh out a complete demon hierarchy but that isn't core to the game. I really just need to establish the demonic clans and how exactly each of them is different from the others. I'm thinking of starting small, maybe 4-6 clans. Like I said earlier, Succubi and Mephits are easy choices and Babaus and Balors are definite possibilities but I can't think of much else.
Each demonic clan has a specialized role in their interaction with the humans. If any of you can think of another way the demons could screw with the humans bring it up and I should be able to find a way to make a clan out of it. Here's what I have so far.
Succubi: Responsible for tempting humans into sin and evil actions. Use a variety of methods from seduction to promises of power and money. They specialize in mental and illusory powers.
Mephits: Responsible for causing all sorts of "accidents" and natural disasters. Generally views as the most mischievous of demons. They specialize in control of the elements and matter manipulation.
Babaus: Demons specialized in assassination and coercion. They generate the downfall of humanity by either silencing or assassinating anyone who shows promise of greatly changing the world for the good.
Balors: Known for their great strength and martial ability, Balors propagate violence, war, and hatred in wherever they can. Often times they will do everything in their power to prolong a conflict as long as possible to cause the greatest amount of pain and suffering.
Hi!
Well, I think you are being pulled in two opposite directions:
1) You want demons to to be wild untamed forces. Randomly seeded and arbitrarily thrown together. This is not a prob as this is VERY demonic
2) You want them to be organized and have a role or purpose in the metaphysics of your world, Also acceptable, these are traits that will tend to magnify their power.
But, of course, these are contrary. I guess you have to pick from one of three roadly defined choices:
a) Make Demons anarchists or otherwise a "might makes right" mentality culture
b) Make Demons a hierarchy and have each serve a niche (one per sin, one per aspect of nature, etc.)
c) Some Demons are A and some are B and never the twain shall meet
Also, to get back to an question raised earlier, what is your game about? I don't mean what is the cover copy, but what is the theme. What do you see as the core struugle of the game? It feels like responsibility vs. power. Is that right? If so, it might better highlight this through having a spectrum:
1) Hunters have powerful items, and a responsibility to hunt demons
2) Civilians - no power, no real responsibility
3) Marked - Burgeoning power and a responsibility tochoose a side
4) Demons - Gain power by assuming responsibility in their clan
Maybe something like that?
Well, demons are definently wild creatures but even the most wild of creatures realize the importance of survival which is why demons band into clans. As a clan leader determines which demons he is going to accept into his ranks you wind up with lots of demons with similar abilities that help fufill the goals of the clan.
Responsibility vs. Power is a very big theme in my game but I think an even bigger theme I want to incorporate is "just because you have the power to do something doesn't mean you should do it." For instance, a Hunter could easily kill a child infected by a demonic soul but is it morally right to do so? A Marked could easily use their powers to save people but is it worth the cost? A demon could backstab his superior and steal his powers but what would the fallout be? All characters in this game will have incredible power and so the real question is how you use your power.
Hi!
I am not trying to be rude, but frankly, I don't buy it. So, lets say there is a clan of ice demons, and they encounter a fairly powerful Fire demon that does not have a clan. I find it hard to believe that they would not want him in their clan just because it doesn't fit their theme...
Now if the Demons were planting the seeds, then I see a obvious reason for a specializeddomain.
Its probably just me, maybe there is a point I am not getting, but it just feels off to me...
Well, no demon without a clan would be powerful. When a Marked first becomes a full fledged demon, they are pretty much a baby in their power level. Without a clan that accepts them, they would be killed quickly for the minimal power boost they would provide another demon. From the clan's perspective, they don't need to accept the demon and probably won't accept the demon unless it has a very similar worldview to them and powers that complement their clan.
Additionally, the demons know when they infect a human (even though they infect humans without any additional effort) and thus those demons might watch to see when the Marked turns into a demon and then approach them with the proposition to join their clan to increase their numbers. They may require such an initiated demon to past a test before being able to join the clan with failure resulting in death (which the demons don't mind because it increases their power.)
Clans basically act as a form of protection for weaker demons and a source to spread influence for greater demons. You can think of them similar to mobs. The Italian mob is most likely not going to accept an Irishman into their "family" unless he has a really distinguished record. Conversely, the same Irishman is most likely going to try and join the Irish mob before he joins the Italian mob.
Why don't they "Seed" all of Humanity then?
Demons need to get something out of humanity. They get power from other Demons they feed off of, Humanity is there as a herd to recruit from.
If "Seeding" does not take any effort, then why don't they seed dozens if not hundreds of people? Even a minor demon who seeds 300-1000 people is sure to turn into a power to be reckoned with.
I think you should limit Seeding, make it into a Pyramid scheme, which also gives more of a reason for a powerful Demon not to kill all underlings. Each Demon could seed Power Level*3 people, for example.
Ideas for clans:
Demons of infections and diseases.
Demons of decay and rot.
Demons of insanity and madness.
Demons of fire and lightning.
Demons of deformations.
Demons of smoke and darkness.
Demons of void and nothingness.
Demons of beasts and wildness.
- Anders
The forum seems to have hiccuped because I posted and it didn't show up.
Thunder:
I like that idea.
Additionally, I think I should explain how humans are infected better. Infection is not automatic. Anytime a human is in proximity of a demon for an extended period of time (yet to be determined) they have to make a check against the power level of the demon. If they fail the check they lose a point of humanity. This basically means that the demon has chipped away some of the human's defenses against being infected (just like how a human's immune system can also be weakened after it fights off an infection.) If the human's humanity is lowered to some critical level, they are no longer able to fight off the demon and they become infected (and become a Marked.)
Taking you idea I think I might make it that the demon has to consciously try to infect a human. Doing so would not really distract the demon or require any additional effort short but I might include some disadvantage the demon could get if the human fights him off.
Anders:
Those are some good ideas but I'm thinking of defining demons more by how they screw with humans, not by what powers they have. How they screw with humans will influence their power selection but I want each demon clan to have a couple dozen powers to choose from.
Elishar,
Maybe you should look at the power19 and answer those questions. I think the members (including myself) could get a better view of what your game is about. In turn, you may be able to define some details that work with a solid overall plan. Otherwise, this sounds a lot like Vampire the Masquerade except the word demon is replacing vampire.
Troy
Quote from: TroyLovesRPG on April 06, 2006, 11:38:34 PM
Elishar,
Maybe you should look at the power19 and answer those questions. I think the members (including myself) could get a better view of what your game is about. In turn, you may be able to define some details that work with a solid overall plan. Otherwise, this sounds a lot like Vampire the Masquerade except the word demon is replacing vampire.
Troy
power19?
Vampire is definitely a strong influence in my game, I won't deny that, but the game plays very differently. Everything from the feel to how the system works is distinctly my own, though I absolutely love White Wolf's writting style and hope that eventually I will be able to write as well as they do. So far I've only worked out a skeletal rules system for the game but once I add some flesh to the game I'll post it and you can get a better feel for how it differs from Vampire as it would take me pages and pages to go into all the details here.
Hi!
Here is a link:
http://socratesrpg.blogspot.com/2006/01/what-are-power-19-pt-1.html
The point of answering the Power 19 questions is to focus your design on what you want, not necesarily what you have. It's also a high level discussion, like when they say what is your game about, they mean like thematically or philosophically.
The Power 19 is a list of questions to answer when designing a game. The questions are simple but thought provoking. It helps create a framework of ideas concerning many aspects from beginning to completion. I think this would be a good exercise for you.
http://socratesrpg.blogspot.com/2006/01/what-are-power-19-pt-1.html
http://socratesrpg.blogspot.com/2006/01/what-are-power-19-pt-2.html
Search on the forge for "power 19" and you can see how members have answered these questions when developing their games.
Troy
Okay, here it is. I answered everything as best I could without going on for pages and pages. I had a bit of difficulty answering some of the questions because the game really differs depending on what faction you are playing. If you need more explaination on a specific question just ask and I'll try to clear it up.
1.) What is your game about?
'The Beast Within' is about the hidden war between demons and a select number of humans for the souls of humanity and the future of the world.
2.) What do the characters do?
The characters play a role in one of the three factions in the game. Depending on which faction the players choose to play greatly affects what they do. The Hunters, who are humans that fight the demons, must fight in a losing battle even though society hates them because they know in their hearts that it is the right thing to do and that the demons must be opposed, whatever the cost. The Marked, those who have been infected by a demonic soul but have not turned evil yet, must battle the demon within themselves and struggle to maintain their humanity while dealing with the amazing (and evil) powers that the demon bestows upon them. The Demons, the prime evil in the game, work to further the downfall of humanity and increase their power in their clan through cutthroat tactics and cunning.
3.) What do the players (including the GM if there is one) do?
There is a GM in my game and he acts as the storyteller and world-creator for the game as well as the controller of both enemies and allies of the character. It is his responsibility to keep the game moving and interesting while weaving a convincing story and world through descriptive dialogue and realistic reactions to the characters actions. The players each play a character in the GM's world that belongs to one of the three factions in the game. The players, through their characters, must face encounters that will challenge both their mind and their conscious.
4.) How does your setting (or lack thereof) reinforce what your game is about?
There is no specific setting set for my game though I do provide guidelines for any setting the GM might create. The setting is supposed to be dark, reflecting the dark nature of the game. The world seems to be unraveling, with wars brewing and violence springing up all over the globe. Diplomacy seems to be a thing of the past and all empathy of society has been completely destroyed. Overall, the setting is meant to reflect the growing evil in the world because this is truly what the game is about, the losing battle between good and evil.
5.) How does the Character Creation of your game reinforce what your game is about?
Character Creation has two parts: the numerical side and the narrative side. The numerical side acts as the skeleton of the character, showing how strong or smart they are and what skills or talents they specialize in The numerical side also emphasizes the combat side of the game, because all of the characters are (perhaps unwilling) soldiers in this war. The narrative side acts as the flesh and skin of the character, the side that brings the character off the page and makes them a real person. This side heavily influences how the character will react to scenarios or challenges the GM throws at the character as well as what their sense of morality is. This can greatly affect the flow and the outcome of the game.
6.) What types of behaviors/styles of play does your game reward (and punish if necessary)?
The game favors those who are cautious and think out their actions before acting, both in and out of combat. In combat, tactical and intelligent play is highly rewarded and is often the difference between character survival and death. Out of combat, narrative dialogue and character conflict are rewarded while a player simply having their character rest until the next battle comes around is punished by not having their character advance.
7.) How are behaviors and styles of play rewarded or punished in your game?
Players can be rewarded by receiving points that help to further increase or augment their character's abilities or they can be rewarded by given a specific piece of desired information, a promotion within their clan, or a desired outcome of a situation.
8.) How are the responsibilities of narration and credibility divided in your game?
The GM acts as the source of narration about the campaign setting or things that happen to the characters (as a results either of dice rolls or plot design.) The players are encouraged to narrate their character's actions in combat as well as the direct result of their actions should they succeed and as long as it is conforms with the outcome of the dice roll. The GM can overrule any player's narration if he deems it unrealistic give the die result and can even remove the player's narration power to narrate the result of his actions if the player continually presents unrealistic narrations.
9.) What does your game do to command the players' attention, engagement, and participation? (i.e. What does the game do to make them care?)
Different players desire different things from role-playing games and depending on what that is will influence what faction they want to play so that they enjoy the game as much as possible. Those that desire power will be most drawn to the Demons. Those that desire character conflict will be drawn most to the Marked. Those that desire to be heroes will be most drawn to the Hunters.
10.) What are the resolution mechanics of your game like?
The game revolves around the d6, specifically 3d6. Whenever the character tries to do something where there is doubt as to if they can do it (jump across a chasm, hit an enemy in combat, etc) they must roll 3d6. As long as they don't roll a 6 they simply add up the d6s and add to the total whatever attribute applies to their action. If they roll a 6 on one or more of their d6s they treat it as if they rolled a 5 but they also get to roll an additional d6. If the players resulting roll is higher than either the difficulty or the opposed roll of another player (or the GM if applicable) then the character succeeds. How much higher their resulting roll is determines by how successful they are, such as if the attack just causes a glancing blow or if it connects squarely with the enemy's jaw and sends them flying backwards.
11.) How do the resolution mechanics reinforce what your game is about?
Well, first of all the game revolves are 3d6 which has demonic connotations (666.) The other thing I wanted to include in how I resolve conflicts is that nothing is impossible. That's a big thing that could kill this game for the players regardless of what faction they are playing. That they are too weak to really do anything important so why bother? This resolution mechanic makes it so that nothing is impossible. If you need to roll a 100 to succeed you can do it. The chances are slim but there is never this sense of automatic failure that I have encountered in some other games.
12.) Do characters in your game advance? If so, how?
Yes. There are several different ways characters advance based on which faction they are playing. Hunters can either advance because they gain more resources to make more or better weaponry or they can gain experience though combat or other significant encounters that allows them to hone skills and abilities or learn how to create new weaponry or gadgets. Marked can either advance by raising their humanity through selfless actions, learning sacred knowledge, or anything else the GM feels warrants an increase in their humanity and thus fight off the demonic soul that is trying to take control of them or they can gain experience though combat or other significant encounters that allows them to hone skills, abilities, and their demonic powers or allows them to learn new demonic powers. Demons advance being either gaining status in their clan through brown-nosing or completion of tasks or they can gain power by slaying other demons and devouring their souls. Demons also have the ability to create more demons and thus can create a band of lesser demons that they have some control over as another form of advancement.
13.) How does the character advancement (or lack thereof) reinforce what your game is about?
This depends on which faction we are talking about. For the demons the goal is power and character advancement is a direct result for that quest for power. For the Marked, the main goal is maintaining your humanity (which raising your humanity reflects.) Additionally, Marked often become more in tune with the demonic soul that resides in them the longer their souls inhabit the same body which reflects the increase in power that a Marked gains. Hunter's dedicate their lives to hunting and killing demons. They do this by creating incredible weaponry and items that allow them to take down superior foes. As the Hunter becomes a veteran in the hidden war he hones his skills and develops new ways of killing his foes. This is what experience gain portrays. Additionally, Hunters sustain their war by selling valuable possessions of the demons they slay, allowing them to create weapons or single use items that were destroyed in the battle.
14.) What sort of product or effect do you want your game to produce in or for the players?
Like with the other questions this varies with faction. For the Demons, the game allows the players to play a completely evil and incredibly powerful character from the start of the game. For the Marked, the game should bring up great character conflict, ethical questions, and character building moments that appeal to players interested in a more mental game. For the Hunters, the words duty and morality pop out in my head. Overall though, I want the game to be exciting and fast. I don't ever want the game to lag.
15.) What areas of your game receive extra attention and color? Why?
Feel, ethics, and combat. The game revolves around building a tense and dreadful environment as a constant reminder of the war that the characters are involved in. For the Hunters and the Marked, ethical decisions come into play often. Is it right to kill a child who has been infected with a demonic seed? Is it justified to use demonic powers that are inherently evil to protect or save innocents? Finally, I placed a huge emphasis on combat because my game is about a war so combat is going to come into play sooner or later.
16.) Which part of your game are you most excited about or interested in? Why?
The ethical decision and character conflict because I love situations where there is no right answer and the combat because the system I've devised is very tactical with loads of special attacks and options available to characters.
17.) Where does your game take the players that other games can't, don't, or won't?
Demons have been done before. Monster hunters have been done before. However, I've never seen a game that deals with a situation like that of the Marked. Additionally, I've never played a game that has no limit on what a character could possibly do like my resolution system does. Finally, I think my approach to combat is a unique method that will set my game apart from others.
18.) What are your publishing goals for your game?
Once I've done significant beta testing for my game I hope to eventually market it to a publishing company because I don't foresee me being able to keep updating my game after I graduate college.
19.) Who is your target audience?
The game is geared more towards experienced role-players who like dark games with an emphasis on tactical combat and tough decisions.
Regarding #5, the narrative side seems to be purely colour, since you create a distinction between it and the numerical side.
Why not have the character's goals be represented by a number? The slider we've discussed earlier in the thread?
Quote from: Thunder_God on April 07, 2006, 04:24:53 PM
Regarding #5, the narrative side seems to be purely colour, since you create a distinction between it and the numerical side.
Why not have the character's goals be represented by a number? The slider we've discussed earlier in the thread?
Did we discuss that in this thread? I'm having trouble finding it.
Some goals are quantified by a number. A Marked's goal is often to maintain their humanity, which is quantified by their humanity score. A Demon's power will be quantified by their power rank. The Hunter's goal is killing demons, which is quantified by the experience they gain.
The narrative side is more to describe the personality and appearance of the character. How tall are they? What do they wear? What is their outlook on life? What's their personality like? What has happened in their life? The questions go on and on. These type of things can't be expressed with a number.
So it's pure colour.
It's important to note that motivations belong in the Numerical section, so people won't mistake their character's worldview to be just that.
They're that and they also drag the game kicking.
And you're right, I seem to have mentioned it on another thread. It still applies, a Slider should be there.
Hunter: Duty Vs. Humanity.
Marked: Power Vs. Humanity.
Demon: Self Vs. Community.
Or something like that. In a way, when the Demon works for Demonic community he can become Marked, when a Marked does nothing with his powers he can become Human, when a Hunter does his Duty to off Demons and Marked at the expanse of helping humans he can become Marked...
Quote from: Thunder_God on April 07, 2006, 04:39:26 PM
So it's pure colour.
It's important to note that motivations belong in the Numerical section, so people won't mistake their character's worldview to be just that.
They're that and they also drag the game kicking.
And you're right, I seem to have mentioned it on another thread. It still applies, a Slider should be there.
Hunter: Duty Vs. Humanity.
Marked: Power Vs. Humanity.
Demon: Self Vs. Community.
Or something like that. In a way, when the Demon works for Demonic community he can become Marked, when a Marked does nothing with his powers he can become Human, when a Hunter does his Duty to off Demons and Marked at the expanse of helping humans he can become Marked...
I like the slider idea and have already thought about incorporating something like it into my game (that was one of the things I wanted to have to distinguish my game from others.)
I was thinking of having a very long slider that was just called humanity (name might change.) It would look something like this:
Demon Marked Hunter
oooooooooOoooooooooOoooooooooOooooooooo
The big 'O's would represent the neutral point for each of the different factions. If you move either up (right) or down (left) in the humanity scale to the neutral point of the next faction then you become a member of that faction. For instance, if a Hunter gets steadily corrupted by demons (though continuous interaction with them) or if he does selfish actions his humanity decreases. If it reaches the neutral point for the Marked then he becomes infected with a demonic soul and he become a Marked. This provides some really great plot twists or character conflicts for the game because the characters might have to end up with either having to kill one of their friends or let a potential demon live. For the Marked, it would be an indicator of how much they are under the influence of the demonic soul within them. If they can raise their humanity through good actions or not using their powers to the neutral level of a Hunter then they successfully exorcise the demon within them. Conversely, if they overuse their powers or engage in evil behavior their humanity would drop and once they reach the neutral point of the Demons the demon inside them would take complete control and they would become a demon. For the demons, I'm thinking of making their humanity scale relate to their power within the clan and their commitment to the demonic cause (which makes it harder and harder for them to become human again.) How a demon would raise their humanity I'm not exactly sure. I like the 'Community' idea but I'm not sure if it fits in with what I have going right now. Maybe anytime the demon shows compassion or mercy or some other type of good emotion they would have their humanity raised.
Hi!
I dunno, last I heard, the hunters get their power from gadgets, not the peresence or absence of seed/sin.
I think an a;lignment bar would be appropriate for this game though. Maybe have the powers/etc. Key off of the current value of that alignment?
Quote from: dindenver on April 07, 2006, 08:34:31 PM
Hi!
I dunno, last I heard, the hunters get their power from gadgets, not the peresence or absence of seed/sin.
I think an a;lignment bar would be appropriate for this game though. Maybe have the powers/etc. Key off of the current value of that alignment?
They do get their power from gadgets. Humanity is a completely different thing that deals with how close they are to switching factions, which has serious and often deadly consequences (especially if you are a Hunter.)
Hi!
OK, I get that an organization of Hunters would want someone that had a certain alignment score.
BUT, being good doesn't mysteriously alter you physically or give you powers. So, how can they tell who gets the gadgets? Furthermore, what's to stop the Demons from stealing the gadgets from fallen Hunters? Finally, if a Huner's job is to slay demons, and you lose resistance to getting infected by being near demons, then, what prevents hunters from ecoming demons (Demons that already have gadgets along with training and experience using those gadgets)?
To put it another way, imagine for a sec, that you are the leader of a group of Hunters. A human approaches your group to join. how can you tell if they are earnest or just want some cool gadgets?
Also, they don't become Demons overnight, they first go through being Marked.
Marked with Hunter mindsets and more power, do note that a Marked with a Hunter mindset will rather quickly become a Demon it seems.
Quote from: dindenver on April 08, 2006, 01:31:46 PM
Hi!
OK, I get that an organization of Hunters would want someone that had a certain alignment score.
BUT, being good doesn't mysteriously alter you physically or give you powers. So, how can they tell who gets the gadgets? Furthermore, what's to stop the Demons from stealing the gadgets from fallen Hunters? Finally, if a Huner's job is to slay demons, and you lose resistance to getting infected by being near demons, then, what prevents hunters from ecoming demons (Demons that already have gadgets along with training and experience using those gadgets)?
To put it another way, imagine for a sec, that you are the leader of a group of Hunters. A human approaches your group to join. how can you tell if they are earnest or just want some cool gadgets?
Alignment does not determine power in any way. Power is determined from gaining experience which translates into either the Hunter improving their abilities, learning how to make new gadgets, or being able to create more single use gadgets to kill more demon.
Yes, Hunters can become Marked. If this happens they can still use Hunter gadgets but they can no longer advance as a Hunter or learn how to make new gadgets. A Demon who slays a Hunter could use Hunter gadgets but they would need to figure out how they would work. Additionally, many Hunters install failsafes in items they use just in case their weapons get in the wrong hands (think of the sword in Blade.)
However, even if faction change occurs it shouldn't throw game balance off very much. Let's say a Hunter who is has a lot of cool gadgets finally succumbs to demonic influences and becomes a Marked. When this happens the only thing that changes about their character is that they can no longer learn how to make new gadgets but they also gain access to a single power at the lowest rank possible and the human cap on attributes is removed. Now instead of being able to learn how to make new gadget they can learn new powers or improve powers they already have. They can still use the gadgets they have made in the past or even create gadgets they knew how to make as a Hunter by spending experience points that they gain (as a normal Hunter does.)
To use an example we can all relate to, changing factions is similar to multiclassing in D&D except that it carries far greater role-playing and story implications when it is done and the character cannot choose to switch back and forth between factions as they please.
Is it possible to move up the slider instead of down, meaning that demons can become Marked humans and Marked can become Hunters?
Are player characters expected to be all of the same faction? What exactly happens if a PC changes faction? Which factions are bound to attack members of which other factions on general principle? There's generally a social contract in cooperative RPGs that player characters who begin in the same team or party don't turn on each other. Players will likely be reluctant to start killing each other when a player changes faction, unless the players are certain that that's what the game is about.
Yes, it was talked about that Demons can redeem themselves.
Marked going up the slider should become humans, not Hunters.
Quote from: billvolk on April 09, 2006, 09:42:20 PM
Is it possible to move up the slider instead of down, meaning that demons can become Marked humans and Marked can become Hunters?
Are player characters expected to be all of the same faction? What exactly happens if a PC changes faction? Which factions are bound to attack members of which other factions on general principle? There's generally a social contract in cooperative RPGs that player characters who begin in the same team or party don't turn on each other. Players will likely be reluctant to start killing each other when a player changes faction, unless the players are certain that that's what the game is about.
Yes, it is possible to move up the slider but it is more difficult. Marked can become Hunters if they work hard enough (they would most likely become Hunters as opposed to normal humans because they have seen the ravages the demons bring first hand) and Demons could theoretically become Marked but I have yet to work out how that would happen (as a Demon would have no reason to want to improve.)
All the players don't have to play the same faction but it is encouraged to limit down time between members of different factions (as there is only one GM.) A PC changing faction is a huge story point and really adds a new twist to the game. What happens if one of the characters in a Hunter group becomes a Marked? Do his buddies kill him as they would any other Marked? Does the newly Marked character tell his friends about his new powers, knowing that they will be bound to kill him, or does he keep them a secret?
Hunters kill Marked and Demons on sight. Demons kill Hunters on sight. Marked do not necessarily attack either other faction on sight but they often retaliate against attacks by Hunters. Some Marked may also attack Demons on sight as well. Demons are less likely to attack Marked if their demonic soul belongs to the same clan as them. If a Demon was able to become a Marked again the Demons would kill him on sight as they would see him as a traitor to their kind.
Yeah, I realize that I'm going to need to spell it out very clear the implications of what happens when a character changes factions so that the other players will play true to their faction. In the Hunter case above, if the other Hunters don't kill their turned friend they would make themselves more susceptible to being infected as well because they are showing pity and remorse to the demons.