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Title: Watchmen ... what's up with the ending?
Post by: quozl on April 05, 2006, 12:31:34 PM
So I finally got around to reading Watchmen and I don't get why everyone just agrees to not do anything at the end and then when Rorshach challenges them on it, they kill him instead of thinking about what they're doing.
Title: Re: Watchmen ... what's up with the ending?
Post by: joshua neff on April 05, 2006, 12:47:50 PM
Well, what if you were in that situation, what would you have done? And how would you have succeeded?
Title: Re: Watchmen ... what's up with the ending?
Post by: Marhault on April 05, 2006, 01:38:29 PM
Ozymandius actions, while heinous, stopped a war which would have had an even more heinous outcome.  If they'd let anyone find out the truth, it wouldn't have saved the people in New York, all it would have done is made their deaths meaningless.

There's no real choice there.
Title: Re: Watchmen ... what's up with the ending?
Post by: Russell Collins on April 05, 2006, 01:44:34 PM
Perfect reversal of the typical comic book in which the heroes save everything. That's exactly what Rorshach thinks will happen and he gets petulant when it doesn't meet his expectations (as did much of Moore's audience.) This is bigger than them, so they do nothing. What did you expect?
Title: Re: Watchmen ... what's up with the ending?
Post by: Bankuei on April 05, 2006, 01:45:12 PM
They kill Rorschach because they know he will never give in.  It was Rorschach's tenacity which pretty much set up the whole story, and, Rorschach is arguably just behind Veidt in terms of clever planning and maneuvering.  If anyone could find a way to break the story to the population at large, it would be him.

On a structure level, it also lends itself to a bit of irony, Dr. Manhattan who believes in an inevitble outcome to the universe is convinced to have a change of heart and believe in miracles, while Rorschach remains unchangable throughout it all.  The most powerful character is humbled, the most frail (emotionally, in a way) is unaffected. 

On another symbolic level, it's the destruction of the black & white viewpoint, which had brought them to the brink of nuclear war and had no way to avoid it.

Chris
Title: Re: Watchmen ... what's up with the ending?
Post by: quozl on April 05, 2006, 02:01:55 PM
Quote from: Bankuei on April 05, 2006, 01:45:12 PM
On another symbolic level, it's the destruction of the black & white viewpoint, which had brought them to the brink of nuclear war and had no way to avoid it.

Chris

Let's talk about the symbolic level since what people should have or could have done doesn't interest me.

It is strongly hinted at the end that Rorschach does succeed after all and his story gets printed.  What is Moore trying to say there?  That while black & white views need to be broken down, the truth will still prevail?
Title: Re: Watchmen ... what's up with the ending?
Post by: Calithena on April 05, 2006, 02:45:28 PM
I loved the ending, FWIW.

Dr. Manhattan decides to let Ozymandias get his way, but in the end the story's going to come out anyway due to Rorshcach, and knowledge of the faked invasion will become common, and Ozymandias' long-term plans for humanity will fail.

We should have a "Who's your favorite watchman?" poll. Rorshach's mine. I mean, Night Owl's the only guy I'd actually like to be friends with, but he's a nobody. As I see it Rorshach and Ozymandias are the only two menschen in the tale, and Ozymandias is such an insufferable prick that I'll take the crazy right-wing asshole over him any day of the week.
Title: Re: Watchmen ... what's up with the ending?
Post by: KingstonC on April 05, 2006, 03:03:19 PM
Yes, Rorschach gets his story printed....

In the equivalent of the John Birch Societies house organ.

It would be no more believable to the public at large than the "Bush planned 9/11" stories you read on the internet.

It's a testament to Rorchach's madness that he has all the goods, and then gives it away to the people least able to use it effectively
Title: Re: Watchmen ... what's up with the ending?
Post by: Eric J-D on April 05, 2006, 03:05:23 PM
QuoteWe should have a "Who's your favorite watchman?" poll. Rorshach's mine. I mean, Night Owl's the only guy I'd actually like to be friends with, but he's a nobody. As I see it Rorshach and Ozymandias are the only two menschen in the tale, and Ozymandias is such an insufferable prick that I'll take the crazy right-wing asshole over him any day of the week.

And mine would be the pirate guy who sails on the raft constructed of bloated corpses. <wink>

Cheers,

Eric
Title: Re: Watchmen ... what's up with the ending?
Post by: Calithena on April 05, 2006, 03:12:28 PM
I thought of that too, Kingston. That's the realistic outcome, sure, but the way the scene was presented, I felt strongly that the symbolic suggestion was that Rorschach gets the last laugh after all, especially because he died. But that may be my own projection...do you read that scene as ironic icing on Ozymandias' cake instead? Do you think Oz won?

Or, perhaps more significantly, are both readings equally warranted by the text? So that the tale is something of a Rorschach test that you can read either figure into the victorious role in?
Title: Re: Watchmen ... what's up with the ending?
Post by: Brennan Taylor on April 05, 2006, 03:17:31 PM
Because the assistant's hand is hovering over the slush pile with Roschach's journal in it, but he hasn't specifically picked it up, I think the ending is meant to be ambiguous. You don't know if the agitprop rag is going to print it or not, or if anyone will believe them if they do. I think that ambiguity is built in to the ending, and I like it that way. You can imagine several possible scenarios. I did get some satisfaction in Rorschach getting one over on Ozymandias by having sent his journal out to them, though, whether or not it gets published.
Title: Re: Watchmen ... what's up with the ending?
Post by: quozl on April 05, 2006, 03:26:43 PM
Quote from: Eric J-D on April 05, 2006, 03:05:23 PM
And mine would be the pirate guy who sails on the raft constructed of bloated corpses. <wink>

Cheers,

Eric

That reminds me: what was the point of those sequences?  Just to show how crazy Rorschach is?
Title: Re: Watchmen ... what's up with the ending?
Post by: Brennan Taylor on April 05, 2006, 03:28:18 PM
Quote from: quozl on April 05, 2006, 03:26:43 PM
Quote from: Eric J-D on April 05, 2006, 03:05:23 PM
And mine would be the pirate guy who sails on the raft constructed of bloated corpses. <wink>

Cheers,

Eric

That reminds me: what was the point of those sequences?  Just to show how crazy Rorschach is?

They dramatize the corruption of good intentions, which is the pretty much the theme of the entire book. Every character in the comic embodies this theme in some way, and the pirate story is a metaphorical exploration of it.
Title: Re: Watchmen ... what's up with the ending?
Post by: Bankuei on April 05, 2006, 03:43:48 PM
QuoteIt is strongly hinted at the end that Rorschach does succeed after all and his story gets printed.  What is Moore trying to say there?  That while black & white views need to be broken down, the truth will still prevail?

Pretty much as everyone's said, it's ambigous and a trash paper who would be printing it...  Perhaps the message is that the truth is something that is only accepted by the insane or guised as insanity?  Moore at his best is multilayered and ambigious, open to interpretation.

Chris
Title: Re: Watchmen ... what's up with the ending?
Post by: Thunder_God on April 05, 2006, 03:46:13 PM
I love Rorschach. I adore him in the scene where he pours the oil in the other inmate's face.

I'm not locked in here with you, you're locked in here with me.

I have this thing for those who do not give in. Like Ghost Rider in the old book where he commands his bike to re-assemble, saying it will only be destroyed when he lets it be destroyed.
Title: Re: Watchmen ... what's up with the ending?
Post by: Brennan Taylor on April 05, 2006, 03:48:44 PM
Quote from: Thunder_God on April 05, 2006, 03:46:13 PM
I love Rorschach. I adore him in the scene where he pours the oil in the other inmate's face.

Rorschach is like Musashi. He believes only in total war.
Title: Re: Watchmen ... what's up with the ending?
Post by: Thunder_God on April 05, 2006, 03:52:19 PM
Musashi, why is that name so familiar?
Title: Re: Watchmen ... what's up with the ending?
Post by: Brennan Taylor on April 05, 2006, 03:53:36 PM
Quote from: Thunder_God on April 05, 2006, 03:52:19 PM
Musashi, why is that name so familiar?

Famous Japanese swordsman, he wrote a book on combat called "A Book of Five Rings." He also killed over 80 people in duels, usually with a wooden stick.
Title: Re: Watchmen ... what's up with the ending?
Post by: Thunder_God on April 05, 2006, 03:54:45 PM
Ah yes, Book of Five Rings. Miyamoto Musashi. Book is not 2 ft. from me.
Title: Re: Watchmen ... what's up with the ending?
Post by: Troy_Costisick on April 05, 2006, 04:14:58 PM
Heya,

Quote from: quozl on April 05, 2006, 03:26:43 PM
Quote from: Eric J-D on April 05, 2006, 03:05:23 PM
And mine would be the pirate guy who sails on the raft constructed of bloated corpses. <wink>

Cheers,

Eric

That reminds me: what was the point of those sequences?  Just to show how crazy Rorschach is?

-Well, part of the point is parallelism.  He's telling you the story in two different arcs hoping the one will reinforce the other.  I personally think it's Moore's way of saying, "Hey, everything that's happening has been thought of before.  The solutions are out there, if people will look hard enough to find them."

Peace,

-Troy
Title: Re: Watchmen ... what's up with the ending?
Post by: Bankuei on April 05, 2006, 04:19:31 PM
QuoteI have this thing for those who do not give in

I assume Frank Miller heroes are also your thing as well, then.  It's a very macho character type, and one which folks find empowering- the idea of a hero who sticks to their ideals no matter what, and is empowered by them.

I thought it was always a great commentary how Rorschach respected the Comedian for his brutal forthrightness, but couldn't see past the patriotism that he was also an amoral murderer...

Chris
Title: Re: Watchmen ... what's up with the ending?
Post by: quozl on April 05, 2006, 04:36:39 PM
Another thing: why is Rorscach insane?  Why is he named Rorschach?  He's obviously there to expose the truth when nobody else cares about it and I don't think it's a coincidence that his mask is black and white.  But why the insanity?
Title: Re: Watchmen ... what's up with the ending?
Post by: Thunder_God on April 05, 2006, 04:40:08 PM
He's a fanatic.

In order to die for your beliefs, knowingly, you need to be a fanatic.

Thus he's one.
Title: Re: Watchmen ... what's up with the ending?
Post by: quozl on April 05, 2006, 04:41:46 PM
Quote from: Thunder_God on April 05, 2006, 04:40:08 PM
He's a fanatic.

In order to die for your beliefs, knowingly, you need to be a fanatic.

Thus he's one.

Fanatic does not mean insane.
Title: Re: Watchmen ... what's up with the ending?
Post by: Thunder_God on April 05, 2006, 04:56:16 PM
Quote from: quozl on April 05, 2006, 04:41:46 PM
Fanatic does not mean insane.

I disagree.
Title: Re: Watchmen ... what's up with the ending?
Post by: Bankuei on April 05, 2006, 05:03:21 PM
"Insane" as in he has given up everything human about himself in order to become an idea.  He doesn't enjoy life, he doesn't have friends, he doesn't care what he eats, he exists only to perform a duty in reaction to, the injustice of the world.  He has become a vigliante acestic, without any belief in any higher ideal than what he does.

The sad fact is, if he had a bit more "human-ness" to work with, odds are pretty good that he would have had an easier time getting others to believe him.

Chris
Title: Re: Watchmen ... what's up with the ending?
Post by: quozl on April 05, 2006, 05:11:23 PM
Am I remembering wrong or wasn't there a scene showing Rorschach kill a dog just to show the reader that he was nuts?
Title: Re: Watchmen ... what's up with the ending?
Post by: Thunder_God on April 05, 2006, 05:13:22 PM
He killed the dogs to punish the murderer owner, the dog ate a lil child that was butchered.

The scene showing us he is "nuts" is when he's faced with Rorschach test, he sees bad things, like in a place where we'd see a butterfly he sees the dog he killed.
Title: Re: Watchmen ... what's up with the ending?
Post by: Bankuei on April 05, 2006, 05:24:04 PM
Actually, both of those just show you that he's traumatized beyond all belief.  His insanity is the fact that instead of trying to recover from the problem, he decided to throw away everything that makes him human in order to try to escape his trauma, and the problems of life itself- diving into his personal code of ideals (while at the same time espousing the world is a void where any meaning is just an illusion), that's his madness.

The violence is pretty irrelevant to the issue.

Chris
Title: Re: Watchmen ... what's up with the ending?
Post by: two_fishes on April 05, 2006, 05:24:26 PM
I've always felt that the pirate story is used to ultimately condemn Veidt for his actions. The hero in that story is a corollary for Veidt, who wants to rescue his world from evil but is consumed by evil in the process. This is suggested In the very last chapter, when Veidt mentions a recurring dream of swimming toward a dark ship--the same fate as the hero of the pirate story.

Rorschach, despite all his hatred of corruption, is completely ineffectual at doing anything about it. He fights crime on the streets, but only sees things as getting worse, not better, as a result. He unravels Adrian's plot too late to prevent it. He manages to reveal it to the world, but only in a medium that has no credibility whatsoever.
Title: Re: Watchmen ... what's up with the ending?
Post by: Eero Tuovinen on April 05, 2006, 08:42:23 PM
While the pirate thing certainly can be read into the overall themes of the story, it's surface meaning is just to comment and reflect on the superhero comics industry. You see, Watchmen is set in a world where superhero comics are the fringe of the fringe that died out in the fifties. Meanwhile, pirates are the vogue, and this is a comic book from that world. This is the complete opposite of what actually happened in America with the Comics Code killing off the historical/horror genre of comics and giving a boost to harmless superhero fantasy. I guess superheroes aren't that harmless if they actually live on your streets. Well, perhaps this was self-evident to everybody and I'm just not deep enough for this discussion ;)

My favourite Watchman? Owlman, perhaps. I like the vulnerability, and how he's obviously out of his league, but doing it anyway. Then again, I like them all a lot as far as characters go.
Title: Re: Watchmen ... what's up with the ending?
Post by: Justin Marx on April 06, 2006, 12:32:35 AM
The Comedian's still the man. For those who like their heroes brutal, amoral and cynical.
Title: Re: Watchmen ... what's up with the ending?
Post by: Troy_Costisick on April 06, 2006, 09:29:36 AM
Heya,

QuoteThe scene showing us he is "nuts" is when he's faced with Rorschach test, he sees bad things, like in a place where we'd see a butterfly he sees the dog he killed.

-It shows he's nuts because he sees the horrific images in the Rorschach tests but lies to his shrink about what he sees.  He only reveals what he truly sees to inflict pain on the shrink.

Peace,

-Troy
Title: Re: Watchmen ... what's up with the ending?
Post by: Thunder_God on April 06, 2006, 09:43:49 AM
That's more of him being a sociopath.
Title: Re: Watchmen ... what's up with the ending?
Post by: Troy_Costisick on April 06, 2006, 10:19:01 AM
QuoteThat's more of him being a sociopath.

Which of course is nothing like being insane :-S

Peace,

-Troy
Title: Re: Watchmen ... what's up with the ending?
Post by: Thunder_God on April 06, 2006, 10:23:52 AM
Yes, I thought of noting I'm splitting hairs there.
Title: Re: Watchmen ... what's up with the ending?
Post by: Joshua A.C. Newman on April 06, 2006, 12:16:33 PM
Boy, of all the threads for my to jump in late on.

My favorite is Ozymandias. The Comedian actually submits{/i] to him. He's the only person who makes the world better with his abilities, not caught up in his own personal shit. He and Rorschach, it could be argued, are the only protagonists in the story.

Rorschach and he are converse: While Adrian effects the world by making world-scale things happen, Rorschach thinks that breaking fingers will make the world better. Adrian sees the complexity of the world and, Machiavellianly, doesn't mind doing evil in the name of good. Rorschach, on the other hand, is only ever fighting against evil, never dealing with the good at all.

Jon, Jule, and Dan are completely wrapped up in their own stuff, and it's not trivial stuff either: Jon's trying to achieve his apotheosis, leaving behind humanity for good. Julie and Dan are trying to confront issues of family, love, and middle-aged irrelevance. These are not people willing to sacrifice for the good of the world; they are the world.

And... Rorschach not insane? Psh. He's as inhuman as Jon but on a human scale. Jon's only not insane because the word doesn't apply to him.

Rorschach isn't killed at the end. He commits assisted suicide. (Dammit, I can't find my copy, so I can't quote) Rorschach realizes that Adrian was right and he was, well, not quite right, and in his eyes, that makes him totally wrong. But he only knows how to do one thing, and it won't have any effect on anything (and probably never has), and he'll keep doing it, knowing it won't have any effect, unless someone kills him in the line of "duty". So that's what he asks for.
Title: Re: Watchmen ... what's up with the ending?
Post by: Bankuei on April 06, 2006, 03:43:36 PM
Jon's definitely insane on the same level.  I thought it was rather interesting to see that at least he does make the step towards being human by believing in miracles, in chaos, in something other than his own view of the world.

Chris
Title: Re: Watchmen ... what's up with the ending?
Post by: Joshua A.C. Newman on April 06, 2006, 03:52:11 PM
Quote from: Bankuei on April 06, 2006, 03:43:36 PMJon's definitely insane on the same level. 

Well, this is splitting hairs, I guess, but Jon can't be insane because he's outside of the human realm. He's only sociopathic if you assume that he's within the society, only psychopathic if you assume that he has a human psyche. That psyche dissolves over the course of the story into something else.
Title: Re: Watchmen ... what's up with the ending?
Post by: Clyde L. Rhoer on April 06, 2006, 07:53:01 PM
Quote from: Joshua A.C. Newman on April 06, 2006, 03:52:11 PM
Well, this is splitting hairs, I guess, but Jon can't be insane because he's outside of the human realm. He's only sociopathic if you assume that he's within the society, only psychopathic if you assume that he has a human psyche. That psyche dissolves over the course of the story into something else.

Is he? He feels distress when Laurie gets upset that he's doing other things while she's there. He feels distress on learning that he thinks he has been causing people to get cancer and runs away from the problem like a child. He feels distress at ending Rorshach's life. He feels relief when he finds Laurie with Dan. He seems to have no control over his own life, and strikes me as somewhat childish. The guy can do anything, what's he do with that power? Let the government make him into a weapon of terror. If he took some responsibility maybe Adrian's plan would have failed.

This leads me to find everyones interpretation of the story as very interesting as I see things a bit differently.

The reason I like The Watchman is because the Supervillian wins, because the heroes are human. Adrian is the supervillian, he's disturbed. He's the smartest man in the world and he predicts that the world is headed towards a path of destruction, so his solution is to hide his findings, and do something so terrible that it causes mankind to pull back from the brink? Meanwhile positioning himself to take control behind the scenes? What if instead of being so arrogant in his belief that there was no one he could talk to he had instead revealed his idea's to people like Jon? Could he turned the tide in a positive way? I have to wonder at his motivations. His hero is Alexander a man who tried to conquer the world and was fairly successful at it. This seems to point at some inner motivation in his choice of solutions. Whether Adrian is aware of those motivations I can't say, I think he's disturbed.

The second part I like is that all the heroes die. After the Keene act there are only three superheroes left. Jon a.k.a. Dr. Manhattan, The Comedian, and Rorshach. All the others have given up. They all die to Ozymandias manipulations in one way or another. Jon proves to be immortal.
Title: Re: Watchmen ... what's up with the ending?
Post by: Joshua A.C. Newman on April 06, 2006, 08:15:47 PM
Good points about Jon. My feeling was that those parts where he shows humanity were little vestigial things, but I think you're right; they're more central to him than he lets on.
Title: Re: Watchmen ... what's up with the ending?
Post by: two_fishes on April 06, 2006, 11:28:17 PM
Reflecting on Jon's humanity makes his last sentiments in the book more chilling, I think. He's off to create some humans. Think that will turn out well for them?
Title: Re: Watchmen ... what's up with the ending?
Post by: Thunder_God on April 07, 2006, 01:35:32 AM
Adrian is the Sidereals who overtook the Solars for the world's own good!
Title: Re: Watchmen ... what's up with the ending?
Post by: Clyde L. Rhoer on April 07, 2006, 09:10:37 AM
Quote from: two_fishes on April 06, 2006, 11:28:17 PM
Reflecting on Jon's humanity makes his last sentiments in the book more chilling, I think. He's off to create some humans. Think that will turn out well for them?

Did it turn out well for us? I wonder if Moore was pointing at a fallible creator.

As I was at work tonight I was thinking how the comic could also/instead-be about an interesting placement of some philosophical positions. You have Utilitarianism (Greatest good for the Greatest number) dealing with Armageddon, versus Free Will which will push the scales back to Armageddon. (Assuming Adrian isn't disturbed as I previously argued.) That's a cool dilemma. I think I'd make Rorshach's choice. Although that's the kind of thing I don't think you could know without experiencing the choice.
Title: Re: Watchmen ... what's up with the ending?
Post by: Joshua A.C. Newman on April 07, 2006, 11:28:49 AM
Quote from: Clyde L. RhoerYou have Utilitarianism (Greatest good for the Greatest number) dealing with Armageddon, versus Free Will which will push the scales back to Armageddon.

Oh, sure. That's probably the primary theme of the book. And, like most discussions thereabout, the more you ask the question, the more you ask the question.
Title: Re: Watchmen ... what's up with the ending?
Post by: Halzebier on April 07, 2006, 11:44:23 AM
Quote from: Clyde L. Rhoer on April 06, 2006, 07:53:01 PMI have to wonder at his motivations. His hero is Alexander a man who tried to conquer the world and was fairly successful at it. This seems to point at some inner motivation in his choice of solutions. Whether Adrian is aware of those motivations I can't say, I think he's disturbed.

Adrian, too, changes. He loses his respect for Alexander and adopts Ramses II as his idol. So he starts out as an immature megalomaniac, which is forgivable, and ends up as a mature one, which is not (and much more chilling).

Regards,

Hal
Title: Re: Watchmen ... what's up with the ending?
Post by: Calithena on April 07, 2006, 02:10:21 PM
Joshua - I go with your original interpretation of Dr. Manhattan. The relief he feels at finding Laurie with Dan is relief at being able to let the last vestige of his humanity go, since he doesn't want it any more. The assumption of godhood goes hand in glove with that.

I realized with horror reading this thread that I'm much more sympathetic to Ozymandias now than I was as a teenager.
Title: Re: Watchmen ... what's up with the ending?
Post by: Joshua A.C. Newman on April 07, 2006, 02:34:24 PM
Yeah, dig: he feels artificially constrained by his humanity. It's like a school uniform.