The Forge Archives

Intro:

Over the past few years I've gotten into miniature games.  I have played a number of HeroClix tournaments and done fairly well.  I've collected a fair amount of HeroScape and Navia Dratp and dabbled in a variety of others.

But I have yet to find a good universal miniatures system.  So I was very excited when read about Monster Rules.  Over the past week I've been reading, studying and analyzing the 130+ page rule book.  On Monday I have the opportunity to run my first play test.

We had 3 players:  Me, my little brother and a good friend of mine.  Since we were all superhero fans I decided to make the game supers.  My little brother didn't have access to an internet connection which could download the massive 14 MB rule book in a reasonable amount of time so I made his characters for him.


The Players/Characters:

My brother played The Mad Monarch and his minions.  The Mad Monarch ruled over his domain of four city blocks with an iron mitten.  He had the power to twist reality to his madness and delighted in driving others insane.

My friend played the local super heroes who were trying to thwart the Mad Monarch's plans.

I played The Butcher, a heavy-hitter-for-hire with little brains and bad BO, and his new, never before seen master and allies.

The "Story" Setup:

It was the day before the Mad Monarch's Birthday and he needed party favors.  So he decided to steal valuables from the city to distribute across his domain the next day.  The heroes of the city have rallied to defend it.  Mean while, an unknown, malevolent power has decided to exploit the chaos and loot the innocent.


The set up:

I set up a couple of boxes and bottles to represent buildings and sprinkled coins (mostly pennies, several nickels, a few dimes and one quarter) across the map.  I told my friend that me and my brother were on the same side and his goal was to stop us from taking as much loot as possible.  I then whispered to my brother that we were in fact not on the same side and were competing against each other.  The game would last five rounds, with who ever had the most value in currency at the end being the winner.  (All currency left on the game board was counted towards my friends points, but he could not collect it.)


The builds:

My brother had 3 heroes and a plethora of minions of various strengths.  The Heroes were Mad Monarch (who was very strong on defense, decent at attacking, could summon many minions as well as another hero and had a huge area extremely potent control attack that drove everyone within a 16" area insane), Jestress (his lovable side kick who cost a lot less and kicked a lot of butt and could seduce those who attacked her) and the Insane Investigator (who was fairly weak over all, but could become more powerful the more minions she had surrounding her).  This build was worth 1000 points.

My friend had 2 heroes, a champion and a few low powered minions.  The Champion was a very powerful attacker and controller but lacked defense and area of effect powers.  One of the heroes was a speedster and the last one some kind of secret agent.  I didn't see their cards, but they each hit moderately hard.  This build was worth 2000 points.

My team was going to be two heroes and 15 minions.  Unfortunately my minions were all made out of paper and it started to sprinkle, so I switched them to my Champion who was comparably priced.  The Champion was She Who is Heaven and Bliss who had very good defense, very good attack and an insane area of effect allure/dominate power.  The Butcher was a hero with very good defense and very good attack.  Mentrais was the last hero who had area of effect mind blanking powers and could transform into a massive whirlwind.  This build was worth 1000 points.

All of my and my brother's heroes had a fairly hefty travel power.  Only my friend's speedster could travel more then 4" a turn.


Play:

The game began with the Mad Monarch appearing on top of a building and driving my party insane.  I retaliated with the butcher, broke the dominate and hit the Mad Monarch for a lot of damage.  At this point it was clear to my friend that we were not on the same team.  We both spend most of our resources for the first two turns battling each other on top of the building while my friend moved into a defensive position.  Then I killed the Mad Monarch and both I and my brother shifted our focus from beating each other to a pulp to good old fashioned theft.

My friend kept the most valuable currency protected while my brother split up his minions to go after it.  Many of them died with loot in their hands (courtesy of my friend), two of which held the quarter but were not able to move it.  I was able to put most of his minions out of commission for a few turns with a massive allure from She Who is Heaven and Bliss.  I then proceeded to steal the quarter and several other large piece of currency.  In the end I had 45 cents, my brother had 38 cents and my friend had around 25.


Most Memorable Moment:

She Who is Heaven and Bliss held most of the Mad Monarch's forces wrapped in awe, at the mercy of her very whims.  No one had managed to damage She Who is Heaven and Bliss thus far that game despite many attempts and it looked like my brothers forces were out for the count.

So I moved She Who is Heaven and Bliss to the high ground to use her cosmic beauty to sway the Jestress and the rest of my brother's minions.

Jestress had a little flirtation aura on, but I figured it was no big deal.  The effect value was only 2d12 vs my defense against it which was 2d10+2d6.

As She Who is Heaven and Bliss spread the light of her beauty across city, a beauty beyond the comprehension of mere mortals, she saw the Jestress and for a brief moment this being who had witness the birth and death of planets, spread harmony and pleasure through the distant cosmos and flirted with Eternity herself, knew rapture.

All of a sudden all of the characters under her control reverted back to my little brother.  The game was on again.


Conclusion:

Over all the game was a lot of fun.  My favorite part was creating the miniatures.  Come on, in how many of these games can you play a Cosmic Entity?  The battle to dominate others characters and break ones own characters out of the control of others was also very nice.

The game was not without its flaws, however.  I ignored many of the more complex rules such as facing and still found the game to require my group to spend to much time negotiating the mechanics.  There are some issues with dominance strategies, clarity and more.

I will give my impressions of the system tomorrow.  It is too late now and, if you have read this far, you've already read more then enough for one post.

Bill,

Thanks for the post and for running a game. I look forward to any criticisms and suggestions you have. Sounds like a fun scenario. About how long did the game last? With that many characters--4,000 pts on the board--that's just a huge game.

MrAtomek

Analysis

The Good:

-The versatility built into Monster Rule's character creation is a blast.  I could honestly see this system used in a plethora of genres and cross-genre games.

-The pages of the rule book itself look beautiful and well laid out.

-I had a lot of fun playing Monster Rules and look forward to playing it again.

The Bad:

The Character Sheets:

We had a difficult time interpreting the character sheets mid-game.  I had gone out of my way to memorize all of the different special abilities and rules before we started, but several times the complexity of the character sheet still caught us up.

A Monster Rules character might look like this:

Mad Monarch

Hero
Cost:  300

Strength: 12
Agility:  12
Intelligence:  7
Perception:  0
Resolve:  12
Presence:  12

Action:  3
Size:  1
Life:  12
Move:  4 (12 w/ Dimensional Travel)
Spirit:  Chaos

12 Insanity Ry + Pr (Sk):  Equipment, Short Range, Power Down, Single Shot, Mass x12, Bullseye + 1, Confident + 1, Lawless + 1, Overpower + 1, Prodigy +1, Trained +1)

12 Tommy Gun Tg + Pr (Sk):  Equipment, Random, Rapid Fire

10 Summon Mook Ar + Pr (Sk): Power Down, Single Shot

5 Summon Mook Ar + Pr (Sk): Power Down, Single Shot

10 Summon Lady of the Court Ar + Pr (Sk): Power Down, Single Shot

5 Summon Lady of the Court Ar + Pr (Sk): Power Down, Single Shot

5 Summon Delusion Ar + Pr (Sk):  Power Down, Single Shot, Equipment

12 Absorb Damage Sf + Rs (Ps):  Energize, Healing Force

12 Absorb Effect Sf + Rs (Ps):  Energize

12 Shape Shift:  Holiday Monarch Sf + Rs (Ps)

12 Dimensional Travel Sf + Rs (Ps):  Nick of Time

Tactical

Disabled:  Perception

I translated all of my brother's characters into an easier to understand format before the game began.  Here is what Mad Monarch looked like:

Mad Monarch

Hero
Cost:  300

Action:  3
Life:  12
Move:  12
Spirit:  Chaos

Powers:

Detonate the "Happy" Gas Bombs!:  A massive gas attack that drives everyone in a huge area insane.  Choose a 12" by 12" area which starts up to 6" away from this character.  Everyone in that area is effected.  Roll 2d12 + 6 against their effect defense power or stat.  Everyone who fails goes insane.  On their turn they attack others at random if they can not snap out of it.  This power may only be used 1 time per turn.

Blam blam blam...:  Sometimes its fun to just blow people away with automatic weapons.  Roll 2d12 against target's damage defense power or stat.  If you roll a 1 your gun jams and you have to take the rest of the action to fix it.  If you roll a 12 you deal an extra point of damage.  If you roll both, your gun backfires, stunning you.  If this happens, choose offense or defense.  You roll 1d12 less on the next action if it is the type of action your declared.  (Jams and backfires do not prevent you from using this attack again.) If you hit your target increase the damage you do 50% rounded down.

Call Mooks:  Allows you to summon a single mook (minion).  You may have up to 3 mooks summoned by this ability at one time but may only summon one per round.

Call Lady of the Court:  Allows you to summon a single lady of the court (minion).  You may have up to 3 summoned by this ability at any one time but may only summon one per round.

Shared Delusion:  You have a pet monster.  This power just allows others to see it.  Allows you to summon 1 delusion (hero).  You may only have 1 horror at one time.

Untouchable:  You know you can't be hurt.  Thus others can't hurt you.  When ever you need to make a defense against damage, roll 2d12 against it.  If you succeed, gain +1 to your next action and you are healed 1 damage.

Beyond the Pale:  You are insane.  Nothing can touch your mind in this maddened state.  Roll 2d12 against all effect abilities.  If you succeed, gain +1 to your next action.

Go On a Holiday:  One of the advantages of being insane is you can take your vacations when ever you want, even the middle of combat.  Transform into the Holiday Monarch.  Costs 2 actions.

Just Somewhere Else:  You don't walk places.  Places walk to you.  You can instantly teleport up to 12" as a single movement action.

Unpredictable:  No one knows when or what you will do.  You may take your turn at any time, even if it was supposed to be someone else's turn.  You may not stop a character in the middle of their turn and must wait until the initiative winning character moves, however.

Insane:  You have... issues interacting with the real world.  You can never roll Perception.  Ever.  Period.

Strength: 1d12
Agility:  1d12
Intelligence:  1d8
Perception:  N/A
Resolve:  1d12
Presence:  1d12

I showed my little brother the "official" sheets for his characters and he shook his head and said he didn't understand them.  He was fine because I had translated them before hand.  I was fine because I play way to many games had been studying the rule book and building characters for the past week.  My friend was not so lucky.  All he had were the numbers.  When ever he made an action he had to deduce the dice value from the point value for two stats then add them together.  He eventually gave up and outsourced the job to me.  Even I had a bit of difficulty making the translation mid game.

The Character Sheets are not accessible enough.  Terms like "Ry + Pr" mean nothing to those who have not studied the rules a heavily and will need to be looked up mid game by the average gamer.  Mid term translation is clunky.  And though the plethora of abilities make the game a lot more fun, they also mean a lot more information will need to be looked up.  Even the most basic game will require at least one player to have intensely studied the rules in order to prevent the game from grinding to an abrupt halt due to complexity issues weighing it down.

Needs to be Streamlined

This game has a lot of different powers.  Hundreds of them.  On top of that there are hundreds of special abilities which can augment these powers.  However, most of these powers are either exact copies or near copies of each other.  For example, the Fire power is identical to the Cosmic Energy power which is identical to the Gasses power.  The only difference is the name.  The control powers are a little bit varied, but most simply stop the effected characters.  The special abilities suffer from the same problem.  Most of them give a +1 to a powers roll.  The only difference between them is the prerequisite to put it in the power.  Dispersed throughout the repeated powers are a few interesting and unique ones, like Leadership or Heroic Revival.  But these few are hard to notice over the endlessly repeated power clones.

This is probably the easiest problem to solve.  All Matt needs to do is stream line the system a bit.  Create a generic attack power.  Force players to assign each a type (Electricity, Gasses, White Fire, etc) to all powers which it would be appropriate for.  For control powers, have one basic control power that stops effected minions.    For both, let players buy power specific special abilities (which the game already has) for a +cost/pl or a simple +cost which increase its effectiveness.  Perhaps for +2/pl on one of the control powers you could take control of the effected minion.  For the +1 abilities, merge them all into one big ability and put a cap on how large a character can make it.  This would make the make the rules a lot easier to read and easier to understand mid play.

Also, let the players define the flavor of the ability.  Let them name it.  It's a minor thing, but adds to flavor.

Example:

16 Allure Ry + Pr (Dm): Enslave
7 (1d8) Indifference Me + Rs (Su)
12 (1d12) Confusion Ry + In (Ps)
12 Insanity Ry + Pr (Sk)

vs

Divine Beauty 16:  Range dominate (control) 1d10+1d6
Blank Mind 7:  Melee dominate 1d8
Consume Thoughts 11:  Range dominate 1d12
Detonate the "Happy" Gas Bombs! 12:  Range dominate (confuse) 1d12

In the first set you would need to look up 4 different abilities and 6 different terms.  In the bellow you would only need to look up one ability and its associated sub abilities.  You will notice that I did not add associated attributes.  I will explain why in the next segment.

Other Complexity Issues:

To be honest, I'd like to see the whole attribute system removed.  Its one thing when you are trying to negotiate stats and abilities with one character.  It is a whole other issues when trying to do it with 3 or more.  The stats add very little to the game.  They provide a base point when a character has no specific ability to cover an action, and two of them (Strength and Resolve) determine the character's life score and fatality rolls.  Other then that they simply augment abilities.

The base point should be determined by character type.  Minions have a d4, heroes a d6 and champions a d8.

Life should be purchased.  A cost of 4/point seems about right.

Characters should have a derived ability called Fatality, which is determined by dice of the size that corresponds to that player's life.

Abilities be made more expensive (a 50% to 100% increase seems appropriate) and instead of rolling the ability + stat, just roll two dice which correspond to the appropriate PL.  If the power is effected by something which would make it so it could not be stacked with another power in the current rules, instead drop it to one dice.

With all the different numbers, powers and abilities to keep track of, I don't want to imagine what would have happened if I had tried to play with Lines of Communication, Facing or Surprise.  These rules strike me as unnecessary and only serve to add complexity to a game which is innately complex due to its universal nature.

Minions

I loved them when I read about them in the rules and was severely disappointed when I saw them in play.  They just can't hurt anything.  If you require minions to take 2 damage to die, then they can't even hurt each other.  I played it so they had to flip a coin for each damage taken and died if one landed on heads or instantly died from 3 damage.  This worked very nicely for minion survivability.  But they couldn't actually do anything.  We had battalions of minions blasting away at heroes and never did a single point of damage go through.  Watching them fight my champion was a joke.

The Questionable:

The following is not necessarily a problem, but areas which need to be considered.

There is absolutely no reason why every single non-minion character (and minions who exist for reasons other then leadership) should not have at least 1 of each of the following:  A travel power, a defense against damage attacks, a defense against effect attacks and a damaging attack, all at their max level or -1 from it.

There is no reason for heroes and champions not to hit the PL cap for all of their powers.

Both statements are true because abilities are very cheep to purchase and improve until they hit their cap, then they become very expensive to raise.  The attack power light costs 1/pl until you hit cap, after which it costs 25/pl.

Short range powers that can be used at point blank range are always cheaper then melee powers.

There is no reason to purchase single shot without power down, or one shot without both single shot and power down.

If a character takes the disabled defect, then there is no reason not to give all of their powers the drain defect for the disabled stat.

Power defects make the ability exponentially cheaper, where each positive power special abilities a finite amount larger.

Thanks, Bill. I am digesting your comments. I am very interested in some of your posting.

Will respond tonight.

MrAtomek.

On the complexity of the power listings. This has been a concern of mine. A basic power listing my look like:

12 Brawl Me, +St (Sk): Combo

Meaning a PL 12 Brawl power used at Melee range that stacks with Strength has a Skill source and a Combo special ability. Perhaps writing it out as

12 Brawl + Strength (Melee)(Skill): Combo

Would be better. I also have thought quite a bit about looking more into the effects of the power, versus a specific power and allowing the players to name them. For example,

Bone Crusher: 12 Damage (Brawl) + Strength (Melee)(Skill): Improved + 1, Knockout
Flame Blast: 12 Damage (Fire) + Agility (Ranged)(Mutation): Improved +2, Blast x3, Deadly

versus how they are now...

12 Brawl Me, +St (Sk): +1 Strike, Knockout
12 Fire Trg, +Ag (Mu): +2 Charged, Blast x3, Deadly

Effect powers would be something like:

Cripple (Attribute or Power can't be stacked)
Weaken (Reduce total by Half)
Consumed (Cannot attack)

You get the idea.

I suppose general terms would be a lot easier to deal with--greatly reducing the powers section which is okay. And could also be applied to a great extent to special abilities.

Hmmm.

I think I will create an alternate powers/special abilities erata pages that are more generic, and describe more of the effect than the specific power and see if that is more useful


Furthermore, I have already implemented a change to ranges, reducing Touch & Melee powers to just Melee (Me); and reducing Ray & Target powers to just Ranged (Rng).

"Abilities be made more expensive (a 50% to 100% increase seems appropriate) and instead of rolling the ability + stat, just roll two dice which correspond to the appropriate PL.  If the power is effected by something which would make it so it could not be stacked with another power in the current rules, instead drop it to one dice."

I like the attribute system, because it offers flexiblity when creating a character. A character could be super strong(PL12) but inept at combat (Brawl PL 4), and still, due to his strength, be effective. Or he could have a relatively normal Strength (PL 5) but be a superior martial artist (Brawl PL 10).

There is also a strateby behind selected which attributes stack with which powers that can be exploited in game play. For example, if a player chooses to stack all his powers with Agility, then all you need to do is cripple Agility to essentially take out the character.

However, I do think I could simplify the character stat sheet at least. Remove all the abbreviations.

I also think it is nice to have default attributes for basic rolls. It has come up in several games.

>>Minions

I loved them when I read about them in the rules and was severely disappointed when I saw them in play.  They just can't hurt anything.  If you require minions to take 2 damage to die, then they can't even hurt each other.  I played it so they had to flip a coin for each damage taken and died if one landed on heads or instantly died from 3 damage.  This worked very nicely for minion survivability.  But they couldn't actually do anything.  We had battalions of minions blasting away at heroes and never did a single point of damage go through.  Watching them fight my champion was a joke.<<

Minions are super weak goons and more generic character. Every time they are hit, they have to make a Fatality Roll and can automatically die if hit for 2 more wounds.

Consider using lower-cost Hero characters for lackeys. They can actually pack the punch you need to hit a hero or champion more frequently, and if you don't use a lot of special abilities, they are relatively cheep.

But I do think it needs to be re-examined. Perhaps allowing them to purchase PL up to 12, but still be weakened by the 2-hit Elimination wound.

"There is absolutely no reason why every single non-minion character (and minions who exist for reasons other then leadership) should not have at least 1 of each of the following:  A travel power, a defense against damage attacks, a defense against effect attacks and a damaging attack, all at their max level or -1 from it.

There is no reason for heroes and champions not to hit the PL cap for all of their powers.

Both statements are true because abilities are very cheep to purchase and improve until they hit their cap, then they become very expensive to raise.  The attack power light costs 1/pl until you hit cap, after which it costs 25/pl."

True. I have thought about altering the point costs a bit to make players commit to a few powers and then be left with a few other, weaker powers. I might have to explore this.


Short range powers that can be used at point blank range are always cheaper then melee powers.

And a Melee power can be used with a Throw special ability for limited ranged combat. Its a point balance issue.


There is no reason to purchase single shot without power down, or one shot without both single shot and power down.

The maximum you can reduce an individual power listing's cost is by half, regardless of how many drawbacks you purchase. That might be too crappy of a rule.

If a character takes the disabled defect, then there is no reason not to give all of their powers the drain defect for the disabled stat.

Disability--I think that's what you are talking about--does not allow you to stack the identified attribute with any powers.

Power defects make the ability exponentially cheaper, where each positive power special abilities a finite amount larger.
But they usually have a fairly severe drawback. Need to balance those points better.

QuoteI like the attribute system, because it offers flexiblity when creating a character. A character could be super strong (PL12) but inept at combat (Brawl PL 4), and still, due to his strength, be effective. Or he could have a relatively normal Strength (PL 5) but be a superior martial artist (Brawl PL 10).

While this can be cool flavor wise, it will not be a very common thing for players to do.  It is pretty much a waste of points to not max out the abilities actually plan to use and keep the rest at 0.  Strength and Resolve should always be high (for life) with possibly agility for the first move, use ranged damage attacks or to diversify.  None of the others are really needed.

The flavor would be a lot stronger if you did not make the dominance strategy to max out the same 2-3 stats for every character.  You can do this and reduce your complexity by a lot by removing stats.

QuoteThere is also a strategy behind selected which attributes stack with which powers that can be exploited in game play. For example, if a player chooses to stack all his powers with Agility, then all you need to do is cripple Agility to essentially take out the character.

This is true.  Bear in mind, however, that all characters should have maxed out Strength and Resolve.  This means they can easily diversify their power sets.  Strength has all melee attacks and resolve has absorb and many other great defenses.  Resolve also has access to a variety of effect powers and Strength has access to almost every defensive power Resolve does not.  With agility maxed out as well you still only have 3 stats, but more diversity then you need.

When it comes to diversity, the real issues is number of redundant abilities.  If I have 1 damage defensive ability and its relevant stat is crippled the character is very vulnerable.  Stat diversification is only needed if the player plans on building redundant abilities anyway.  Since this is the case, you can get just as much value from making cripple nerf a power instead of that power's associated ability.

QuoteI also think it is nice to have default attributes for basic rolls. It has come up in several games

I will go as far as to say that you need default rolls.  However, I do not see why they need to be based off of attributes.  They are going to be lousy no matter how good you are.  It would be simpler and more elegant in play to simply give each character type a default score for all rolls they do not have an associated ability for.

QuoteMinions are super weak goons and more generic character. Every time they are hit, they have to make a Fatality Roll and can automatically die if hit for 2 more wounds.

Instead of a fatality roll, flip a coin.  It gives the odds you want and makes it so the tiny minion with no strength and resolve is NOT better at surviving damage then the huge strong minion with a good resolve.

QuoteConsider using lower-cost Hero characters for lackeys. They can actually pack the punch you need to hit a hero or champion more frequently, and if you don't use a lot of special abilities, they are relatively cheep.

Jestress was a 150 pt hero and I she seduced She Who is Heaven and Bliss who was a Champion.  No no no, I do not underestimate the 150 point hero.  But then again you can't have an army of them swarming the battle field and dying like flies.

QuoteBut I do think it needs to be re-examined. Perhaps allowing them to purchase PL up to 12, but still be weakened by the 2-hit Elimination wound.

Interesting.  I like that.  Also, perhaps each minion could have up to 1 positive and 1 negative ability on each power.  That way you could have grenade throwing soldiers, minute men with a more powerful short ranged attack, etc.

QuoteAnd a Melee power can be used with a Throw special ability for limited ranged combat. Its a point balance issue.

My point is that there is really no reason to take a melee power over a short-ranged range power with point blank.  Melee + thrown increases the total cost by 10.  Ranged + Short + PB increases the cost by five then HALVES it.  This is huge.

QuoteThe maximum you can reduce an individual power listing's cost is by half, regardless of how many drawbacks you purchase. That might be too crappy of a rule.

...

QuoteBut they usually have a fairly severe drawback. Need to balance those points better.

The second comment is fixed by the first.  I do agree, however, that the first is a fairly crappy solution.  But I am not really sure that it is even a problem.  Just something to keep your eye on during play testing.  It may turn out that the discount really does take more away then it gives back.  I noticed in my playtest that The Butcher who only had the Equipment disability on his attack power was far more effective then any other hero and many of them had multiple stacked disabilities on their major powers.

QuoteDisability--I think that's what you are talking about--does not allow you to stack the identified attribute with any powers.

I have two responses to this.

1st:  I interpreted that to mean that you could purchase abilities that were associated with the stat and you simply couldn't roll add the stat to the power's dice.

2nd:  Which is why it will be perfect to give all of your abilities the Drain: (attribute made unusable by disability.)  All costs are halved with no ramification.


A couple of other minor things.  I would l personally like to see the Champion price capped at 750 instead of 600.  As of now, all Champions must have between 300 and 400 points worth of abilities.  This is only 2/3rds the range of a Hero.  And each point is worth more proportionally for a hero then a Champion.  Personally, I would like to see a bit more versatile for Champions.

Consider posting a plain text version of your rules.  14 MB is a huge download.  Its worth time, and the rule book looks great, but I know people who can't download it because it is to big.  Give the poor modem users a chance.  Post a plain text version.

Make sure that Hardened + Immortality isn't broken.  I'm not sure it is, but I promise that it is a brutally effective combo and needs to be well play tested.

I like the special abilities Expert and Master.  Well priced and very interesting.  Both are flavorful and effective but neither creates a pure dominant strategy.  Well done.

Bill,

Here's a new character stat format with a few changes: 1): All PL are even numbers making it easier to figure out the dice, 2). All abbreviations are spelled out, 3). All power modifiers have been condensed to a single "Improved" special abilitiy, 4). The point costs have been changed a bit:

Hero: Maximum 200 points (not 300 pts)
PL: 2 points each (Unless indicated otherwise)
Improved: 5 pts per +1 (Hero can have a maximum of +2)
Malfunction: 5 pts (all special ability costs are being reduced by about half)
Heroic Deed: 10 pts
Genius: 25 potins
Disability: 5 pts

Professor Phantom
Hero (199)

St   612 Disintegration +Intelligence (Ranged) (Skill): Equipment, +1 Improved, Malfunction
Ag   6   12 Phase +Intelligence (Self) (Skill): Equipment, +2 Improved
Pc   6   10 Logic +Intelligence (Self) (Skill): +1 Improved
Rs   8   10 Sensors+Intelligence (Extended) (Skill): Equipment
In   10   6 Brawl +Agility (Melee) (Skill):
Pr   8   Gadgets (10)
         10 Levitation +Intelligence (Ranged) (Skill): Equipment
Ac   3      10 Flight +Intelligence (Self) (Skill): Equipment
Sz   1   Heroic Deed
Lf   6   Genius +1
Mv   4   Disability (Strength)
Int   -   
Sp   Gd   


By decreasing the gap bewteen PL and special abilities--and decreasing the overall points allowed--you still have a limited number of points with which to make a few hard decisions and must commit to a strategy.

That was an accidental post:

Professor Phantom
Hero (199)

St   6     12 Disintegration +Intelligence (Ranged) (Skill): Equipment, +1 Improved, Malfunction
Ag   6     12 Phase +Intelligence (Self) (Skill): Equipment, +2 Improved
Pc   6     10 Logic +Intelligence (Self) (Skill): +1 Improved
Rs   8     10 Sensors+Intelligence (Extended) (Skill): Equipment
In   10     6 Brawl +Agility (Melee) (Skill):
Pr   8     Gadgets (10)
                     10 Levitation +Intelligence (Ranged) (Skill): Equipment
Ac   3           10 Flight +Intelligence (Self) (Skill): Equipment
Sz  1     Heroic Deed
Lf   6     Genius +1
Mv   4     Disability (Strength)
Int   -   
Sp   Gd   


By decreasing the gap bewteen PL and special abilities--and decreasing the overall points allowed--you still have a limited number of points with which to make a few hard decisions and must commit to a strategy.

Matt,

I believe that this is a step in the right direction simplicity wise.  I would like the dice to be on the character sheet itself.  Figuring out that 14+16 is 2d10+1d4+1d6 will still be a bit jarring during play.

I do not believe that reducing the total number of points characters have to work with will solve your problem.

Generic Man

Champion
Cost: 144

Strength:  12
Agility:  0
Intelligence:  0
Perception:  0
Resolve:  12
Presence:  0

Action:  3
Size:  1
Life:  12
Move:  12
Spirit:  Good

12 Brawl + Strength (Melee) (Mutation)

12 Leap + Strength (Self) (Mutation)

12 Absorb Damage + Resolve (Self) (Mutation)

12 Absorb Effect + Resolve (Self) (Mutation)

Generic Man costs only 144 points (so he needs more to actually be a hero), has very high movement, very good defensive capabilities against all kinds of attacks and is good at attacking.  Note that his abilities are diversified amongst two stats, so a single cripple will not take him out.

If you wanted to turn Generic Man into Blasting Man you could add 12 points to Agility and turn brawl into a pimped out range attack.  If you wanted Controlling Man you could shift your defense to strength (with a new power) and buy a maxed out control power linked to resolve.

With this new system I see no reason why you would ever purchase either intelligence or presence.  The only value I see for perception is negating ambushers.  This effectively forces all characters to be idiotic and maladjusted.

You have not changed the pure dominance strategy.  If anything, you have made the alternate strategies worse.  While this new method will reduce options, it will not make the best choices any worse, just make the poor choices terrible.

However, I like the idea of dropping the cost of the +1 to 1/5 of their original cost.  It will make them a lot more viable.

Best,
        Bill

Generic Man and Blasting Man are great at fighting. But what if, in order to succeed, Generic Man had to hack into a computer, search for clues at a murder scene, convince the President of the United States to not launch an all out nuclear attack before he had a chance to remedy the situation.

I am hoping for Monster to offer more than just a combat experience--that is where some of the other attributes and abilities come into play.

For example, if Generic Man was fighting an opponent with an Invisibility power, he would never be able to hit him, because his opponent could continually use 2 Actions to attack and 1 Action to "hide"/turn invisibile. Generic man has no way of finding him.

Furthermore, the idea for more involved scenarios is to have sort of mini-games that either preceed or follow a major conflict, to help set the stage/tell a story, with the mini games having some in-game effect. So if your character can hack into the computer system, he is able to turn off the security system which disables 300 points worth of automated security lasers, or if your character is able to find the clues, he gains an Ambush advantage versus his opponent in the big game.

Ultimately, I think it makes a game more interesting, because you have to have characters capable of performing skills other than combat. You have to strategize for more possiblities, other than thumping your opponent's characters.

In one game I play tested, my heroes were tasked with hacking into 4 telecommunication computers in 4 different bunkers to move 4 different satellites into different orbits. I had to make an unopposed roll versus a TN 10 and score 2 successes to complete each hack.

Once the game started, I realized that only 2 of my 5 characters had the ability to succeed. One had a Intelligence D10 and the other had a Intelligence D8 + Science D8. So I had to quickly shift my strategy around to protect the more capable character who would be able to complete the assignment.

Once my opponent picked up on that fact, he started targeting my character rather than attacking the team at large.

It made what would have been a general brawl far more strategic and fun. Ultimately, I had a better mix of characters that would have beat him in a straight team conflict, but once he targeted my two characters and took them out--it was game over. I couldn't complete the tasks.

Also, I am thinking of making the Life/Fatality roll independent so that a player does not feel he has to always load up on Strength and Resolve, maybe at 10 pts per PL with the same PL limits in place. And then keep the point scores for Minion, Heroes and Champions where they are--with the reduction of cost to special abilities. Things start to balance out.

A Fatality Roll for a character is any two attributes of your choice at any time. Given a dire situation, maybe it was your Intelligence (quick thinking) and Agility (a sudden movement) that ultimate saved your life? With the ability to prevent a attribute from stacking--even with another attribute--that could create some interesting situations.

Also, by using only even numbers, a power lising could look like (for a character with Strength 12):

Brawl D12 + D12 St (Melee) (Skill): etc.

And place the attribute score right in the listing.

I am working on an text-only update to the rules that I will try and post over the weekend.

I really appreciate your input.  I think initially I wanted to push the boundaries as far as I could, realizing that I would have to scale back eventually to increase the playability. And that's where I am now.

So keep your suggestions coming and let me know how I can support your playtesting efforts.

MrAtomek

Matt,

Before I comment on your reply, I would like to clarify the rules in regards to scenario creation.

Here is how it works (in my understanding).

Player 1 creates a scenario, who starts with what, the mini-games, the goals, the payoffs, etc.

Player 2 selects which roll they want to play.

Players 3+ do the same if there are more then 2 people

Player 1 is left with the last (and, if there is an imbalance, worst) position.

All players build teams with full knowledge of what challenges of what they and all other players are going to face.

I will be assuming that players must use this structure to create scenarios.  If the mini--games are a surprise, then they are not worth preparing for and it breaks down into a combat game where mini-games simply give the other player the advantage.

QuoteGeneric Man and Blasting Man are great at fighting. But what if, in order to succeed, Generic Man had to hack into a computer, search for clues at a murder scene, convince the President of the United States to not launch an all out nuclear attack before he had a chance to remedy the situation.

I am hoping for Monster to offer more than just a combat experience--that is where some of the other attributes and abilities come into play.

It depends on the costs and payoffs.  The bulk of the game is combat oriented.  If the game was a one shot in which the victory condition could not be completed by slugging it out with the other team, you could take Generic Man and give him the victory condition stat/power, which could be high Int and Comprehend, high Presence and Business or whatever was needed.

In a long series of games it becomes a question of how many mini-games or even full sessions they are you willing to throw to win the rest.

Example 1:

Let us say that there are two mini games, each worth 100 points to the winner in a 6 game set.  Each player has one of them.  For that session, they get the 100 point bonus if they succeed and their opponent will get 100 points if they don't.  It will cost 30 points to win the mini-game.

Player 1 spends it, Player 2 does not.  In two games player 1 will have a 40 point advantage.  In four games player 2 will have a 60 point advantage.  Thus player 2 will most likely win.

Example 2:
Let us say that there are four mini games, each worth 100 points to the winner in a 6 game set.  Each player has two of them.  For that session, they get the 100 point bonus if they succeed and their opponent will get 100 points if they don't.  It will cost 30 points to win the mini-game.

Player 1 spends it, Player 2 does not.  In four games player 1 will have a 40 point advantage.  In two games player 2 will have a 60 point advantage.  Thus player 1 will most likely win.

So this does create some interesting decisions.  However, the decisions are no less interesting if there were no stats and characters simply purchased powers that filled the scenario requirements.  Nor does this stop the characters from all being Generic Men slightly retuned with 56 extra points tossed around.  It will simply change where some of those 56 points are spent.

QuoteFor example, if Generic Man was fighting an opponent with an Invisibility power, he would never be able to hit him, because his opponent could continually use 2 Actions to attack and 1 Action to "hide"/turn invisibile. Generic man has no way of finding him.

Fine, there are 3 combat situations where perception is useful, not 2.  But all of them are very limited in scale and ignoring them is generally not lethal.

In the situation you posed, Generic Man would move away, forcing Invisible Boy to either move and turn invisible or move and attack.  Mean while, Generic Man would be attacking the Invisible Boy's not-invisible team mates.  Even if Generic Man's team had no characters with a decent perception, they should probably have at least 1 with an Area of Effect power which could be used to take out Invisible Boy.

QuoteAlso, I am thinking of making the Life/Fatality roll independent so that a player does not feel he has to always load up on Strength and Resolve, maybe at 10 pts per PL with the same PL limits in place. And then keep the point scores for Minion, Heroes and Champions where they are--with the reduction of cost to special abilities. Things start to balance out.

A Fatality Roll for a character is any two attributes of your choice at any time. Given a dire situation, maybe it was your Intelligence (quick thinking) and Agility (a sudden movement) that ultimate saved your life? With the ability to prevent a attribute from stacking--even with another attribute--that could create some interesting situations.

So 10 pts per life?  That's a bit hefty, but then again, it would force people to make a hard decision as to how much life they want.  The Eternal + Hardened powers will become a LOT better.

While I like the idea of linking Fatality rolls to any stats, it will simply shift the purely dominate abilities from Strength and Resolve to Agility and Perception.  Ultimate defense, attack, initiative and resistance to the surprise powers.  You might want to give a high strength under this system the same way you might want to give a character a high agility in the last.  It is a little useful, but only after you have maxed out the two good ones.

As you can see, simply removing the stats would solve a lot of problems the game currently has.

QuoteAlso, by using only even numbers, a power lising could look like (for a character with Strength 12):

Brawl D12 + D12 St (Melee) (Skill): etc.

And place the attribute score right in the listing.

That looks better.  So would...

Brawl D10+D6 + D10+D4 St (Melee) (Skill)

...be how you would write scores higher then 12?

You have the potential for a great game here.  Keep up the good work.

Best,
        Bill

Matt,

On the train, I had an idea that would allow you to keep attributes, but fix all the problems you currently have with them.

Each power will need to have 1-2 associated attributes.

Attributes are not written on the character sheet.  However, you will keep special abilities like Genius which give a finite bonus to all powers which are linked to that attribute.  If you took the Disabled special ability, you would not be allowed to purchase any power with the associated ability.

All character types could purchase these special abilities and each would have a cap.

My initial thoughts for this cap are:

Minions:  1
Heroes:  2
Champions:  3

Otherwise it would work just like the stat-less version I posted earlier.

Best,
        Bill

I am not opposed to dumping the attributes--that's how the game started. But in the beginning, I quickly ran into problems of how does a character without a Strength or Brawl ability kick down a door? Or a character without Intelligence or Science stop a nuclear reaction from destroying the world.

I like your suggestion of a default dice: Minion D4, Hero D8 and Champion D12 for those situations. But, it makes some assumptions about characters that a player might not want. For example, my character is a floating brain, Champion level. With attributes I can give him a Strength of 0; with the default dice, he is still going to have a D12, which is powerfu.

So I will look at it. But see if the new streamlined power listings and simplified special abilities help.

I will post the updated special abilities, with new costs tonight--for you next play test. Try a game with some non-combative objectives, try using the attributes a couple of more times.

I am interested in playing this weekend with things more streamlined to see what happens. And using the changes to Fatality Rolls, costs, etc.

Some of these changes are sweeping, but they feel right in my gut.

Also, on the mini game thing. Yes, both players need to be made aware of the what skills/powers are necessary and at what level, but not necessarily what the challenge is until game time. A game description might say, the heroes will need a Science or Mechanics skill to beat a TN 12, but not know why.

Once a team is assembled, he finds out whether his selection was a good match or not. Also, you don't necesarily have to allow one player to create and the other player to pick, because if you decide to create a computer with a TN 20 security system, it's going to cost you 100 points. So it even it out a bit (you have 100 points less to spend on your characters).

The more custom stuff is still being worked out, but is a very important aspect of the game. Allowing players to quickly create balanced multi-game adventures is what makes the game far more enjoyable.

Thanks.

Matt

Matt,

QuoteI will post the updated special abilities, with new costs tonight--for you next play test. Try a game with some non-combative objectives, try using the attributes a couple of more times.

I look forward to reading the new rules.

I agree that non-combative objectives are fun.  That is one of the reasons the goal in my last game was not killing, but stealing loot/preventing loot from being stolen.

Still, I have a problem imagining having a fun game of Monster Rules without any combat.

QuoteI like your suggestion of a default dice: Minion D4, Hero D8 and Champion D12 for those situations. But, it makes some assumptions about characters that a player might not want. For example, my character is a floating brain, Champion level. With attributes I can give him a Strength of 0; with the default dice, he is still going to have a D12, which is powerful.

I see your point.  If this is a major worry, use the attribute system from my last post, where you could receive extra points by loosing access to a large number of powers or enhance all powers that share a linked attribute by spending points.  It becomes a tag like Psychic or Super Natural:  Flavorful, game effecting, but with only minimal extra complexity.

It even makes sense.  If you have a floating brain, he will not be able to brawl nor would he be invulnerable.

Best,
        Bill

Bill,

The Special Abilities revision is posted at:

http://www.monsterrules.com/resources/Monster_Rules_Revision_1.pdf

It includes the new, Enhanced special ability modifier, has all of the other specific modifiers removed and has all the new point values. Furthermore, a few names have been shuffled around and Mighty, Ultimate, Unearthly and Cosmic (new) have been changed to increase the PL for all attributes and powers.

I will post more of the rule changes this weekend with a revision sheet.

Thanks.

Matt

Here's another sample character using the newer point system and changes:

Comrade Super
Hero (299)

St 12   12 Brawl + St (2D12) (Melee) (Skill): +1 Enhanced, Combo, Charge, Smash, Grab
Ag 6   12 Invulnerability + St (2D12) (Self) (Skill): Equipment, +1 Enhanced
Pc 8   10 Laser + Pc (D10 + D8) (Ranged) (Skill): Equipment, +1 Enhanced, Deadeye
Rs 8   8 Discipline + Rs (2D8) (Self) (Skill): Equipment
In 6    4 Search + Pc (D4 + D8) (Ext) (Skill): Equipment
Pr 6   
         
Ac 3   +1 Prodigy   
Sz 0   Heroic Deed
Lf 8   Disability (Agility)
Mv 6   
Sp Gd


I am using him in a game tonight.

I am also changing many of the effects that did not allow a power to stack with an attribute or vice versa to simply recude the total by half. The general effect is the same, but it is a lot less cruchy. For example, If you surprise an opponent, he still uses a stacked Strength + Invulnerability to make his defensive action roll, but the total is halved instead of messing aroudn with choosing to use Strength or Invulnerability and then which dice go with with which PL, etc.

I will try to post the rest of the text version asap.

MrAtomek

Here is a possible Champion build using the rules you put forth in this thread.


She Who is Heaven and Bliss

Champion
Cost:  600 Points

Strength:  4
Agility:  0
Perception:  4
Intelligence:  4
Resolve:  24
Presence:  24
(120)

Action:  4
Size:  2
Life:  0
Move:  4 (10 w/ DT)
Spirit:  Good

Eternal

Cosmic

24 Allure + Pr (4d10+2d4)(Target)(Dimensional):   Short Range, Power Down, Single Shot, Enslave, Mass x 16, Point Blank, Deadeye

22 Cosmic Energy + Pr (3d10+1d12)(Target)(Dimensional):  Short Range

10 Dimensional Travel Pr (Self)(Dimensional)

24 Absorb Damage (4d10+2d4)(Self)(Dimensional)

20 (4d10+1d4) Absorb Effects (4d10+1d4)(Target)(Dimensional)

Disabled:  Agility


I like the new Mighty/Ultimate/Unearthly/Cosmic rules.  Very nice touch.  I'll send the new rules to my fellow playtester once I get them.  Then I will build the scenario.

Best,
        Bill

There was a typo in my last post.  The cosmic energy power should read (3d10 + 1d12 + 1d4) instead of (3d10 + 1d12).

That is one powerful goddess--but fun that you could make one.

I have her, with the new point schema--I haven't sent you all the rule changes yet--at about 500 points / 750 to use in a game.

I kind of wince at the dice combos--but I think that 750 points worth of heroes or a similar champion level character would give her a run for her money.

After all, she is a goddess. I mean, that is what those PL represent. Although, I think that's why I limited champions to 400 points, having both Cosmic and Eternal-jeez!

However, in a cooperative game or GM-led game, 500, 600 or 1000 points, its all good as long as everyone agrees.

For all her power, there are still some weaknesses that could be exploited--but not much.

I see you caught on to the same exploit I uncovered--a powerful character does not have to worry about paying for Life, I suppose. And I think that's Okay--ultimately, it could be her undoing. Need to play test that out a bit. Maybe 10 points per point of Life is too much though.

MrAtomek

Matt,

Imagine her with Hardened on top of all that.

I built her using the new Special Abilities and the modifications you proposed.  All abilities that cost 1 costing 2, the 10pt/life cost the new fatality roll, etc.

I could easily cut the cost of all her powers by half by adding Drain:  Agility to them.  (Flavor wise, she is a haughty cosmic entity.  She is not going to be dodging anything.  The use of her powers exagerate that.)  If I needed to further pull points, I could halve them all again by making them equipment.  Both are exploits you might want to watch out for.

Best,
        Bill

I ran the numbers again.  Point total was 412.  It is hard to keep track of the point totals, even with the aid of a calculator.  And even with calculators, veteran gamers make mistakes.

She Who is Heaven and Bliss

Champion

Strength:  4, 1d4
Agility:  0, 0
Perception:  4, 1d4
Intelligence:  4, 1d4
Resolve:  24, 2d10+1d4
Presence:  24, 2d10+1d4
(120)

Action:  4
Size:  2
Life:  0 (0)
Move:  4 (10 w/ DT)
Spirit:  Good

Eternal
(50)

Cosmic (+8 Max PL)
(100)

24 (2d10+1d4) Allure Tg + Pr (Dm):   Short Range, Power Down, Single Shot, Enslave, Mass x 16, Point Blank, Deadeye
((48 + 25 + 48 + 5 + 10)/8 = 17)

22 (1d10+1d12) (1d10 + 1d12) Cosmic Energy Tg + Pr (Dm):  Short Range
(22)

10 Dimensional Travel Sf + Pr (Dm)
(20)

24 (2d10+1d4) Absorption Au + Rs (Dm):  Damage
(48)

20 (2d10) Absorption Au + Rs (Dm):  Effects
(40)

Disabled:  Agility
(-5)

(412)


If I were to actually play her, I'd probably drop strength down by 2 and the damage absorption power down 4.

If I was at a tournament, I'd drop all her stats to 0 save for Resolve and Presence, then use the left overs to purchase Blind Fight (which would cover her only real weakness) and bump her cosmic energy ability up by 2.

But even that is still a sub-optimal build.  Absorption is not the most effective power, as you need to buy it twice to be useful.  Armor with the astral ability or astral form would be more efficient powers, although the latter doesn't work well VS AOE powers.  Agility is a more efficient power to link it to, so strength would be the disabled power and agility would be the second heavy one, linked to the Armor.  I'd also see if I could fit hardened into there.

Matt,

I've been reading through the rules on how to build a custom scenario.  I have a few questions.

QuoteAll Target Numbers for any challenges are set at
4 unless a player is willing to spend points to increase
it. Any points spent are deducted from that players
total PV for the next phase of play.... Whether a character succeeds or fails at his task,
you should assign some kind of consequence. If
the character fails at the task, a benefcial outcome
should be awarded to the opponent; if the character is
successful, then he is awarded the benefcial outcome:

Ok, so let me get this straight.  As the creator of the scenario, I decide who gets which tasks and their payoff.  The reason I don't give myself a task with a 100 point bonus upon completion of a 4 difficulty task is that my opponent could simply spend 50 of his 300 points to make the task impossible and he would get come out 50 points ahead.

So why wouldn't I give my opponent a 100 point bonus task, then I spend the 50 points to make it impossible for him to succeed.  I would have a windfall of 50 points, granting me a significant advantage.

Making the max point bonus 100 means they will have a very small impact on epic (1k+) games.

Quote...an objective might be for a character
to hack into a computer system, rewarding the
character with 100 points if he is successful; on the
other hand, if hacking into the computer results in the
immediate end of game, then the objective is a victory
condition....An objective should be worth ½ of its GV and a
Victory Condition should be worth 100% of its GV.

How can a Victory Condition be worth 100% of its GV?  I see how the characters who are worth 100 points would be worth 50 GV.  But victory conditions have no point value, and their post-completion influence upon the game are arbitrarily high by default.  So what exactly do you mean by this?

QuoteDwarven Stoneguard Door
Unlocking the Door TN 12 x 2
(Contraptions, Steal or Lore)
Finding the Door TN 12 (Search-Type or Lore)
Material Hardness TN 12 (Offensive Power)
The cost for the Dwarven Stoneguard Door would
be 48 points for each one used in the game.

So, when you encounter the stone door, what happens?  Can the characters simply decide to ignore it and walk straight through?  What rule forces them to stop?

Assuming that they do need to interact with it, do they need to unlock it, find it and break it?  Or can they simply do one of the three?

Are there any penalties for failure other then lost time?

Finally, where do you get the 48 points?  You have 3 abilities.  Is the highest TN the one that defines the cost?  If so, why haven't you increased all of your ability costs to 12x2?


I would like to use the new revision of the rules for my next playtest this Monday.  Unfortunately its already Saturday night and they are not yet up.  At this point I doubt that I will be able to assimilate them quickly enough to use them for my next playtest.

Best,
        Bill

Sorry about the late response, Bill, I promised myself that I wouldn't work on the game on Sundays. I tried out a few of the rule variations on saturday and came up with a few changes I would like you to give a wirl on Monday. I will try to have all the text updates posted as soon as I can.

1. Minions can have 1 power at PL 12. All other scores must be PL8 or lower. Minions can use any special abilities that cost 5 points or less.
2. If hit for 1 wound, a Minion must make a Fatality Roll using a D6. 1-3 is failure.
3. Did away with Life all together. You can use Vitality to up a character's toughness. Whenever a character is hit and damaged, he has to make a fatality roll.
4. I changed Mighty, Ultimate, Unearthly and Ultimate. They were simply too powerful. I made each one cheaper but can only modify one attribute or power. Mighty +2 (15 pts), Ultimate +4 (30 pts), Unearthly +6 (45 pts), or Cosmic +8 (60 pts).
5. Absorption no longer includes Effects. Was just too powerful.
6. If a character is suprised, immobilized or Area attacked, reduced their total by half rather than not allowing a power to stack. In fact in any situation that normally wouldn't allow a power to stack, reduce the total by half instead.


So I recreated your character as follows:

She Who is Heaven and Bliss
Champion (398)

St   4   16 Allure + Pr (3D10 + D6 + D4) (Ranged) (Dimensional): Enslave, Mass x12 (x14), Point Blank,
Ag   0    Deadeye, Short Range
Pc   4    16 Cosmic Energy + Pr (3D10 + D6 + D4) (Self) (Skill): Short Range
Rs   24    16 Ego Shield + Pr (3D10 + D6 + D4) (Self) (Dimensional)
In   4   16 Absorption (Damage) + Rs (3D10 + D6 + D4) (Self) (Dimensional):
Pr   24    10 Dimensional Travel + Pc (3D10 + D4) (Ranged) (Dimensional): Short Range
      Eternal
Ac   4    Cosmic (Presence)
Sz   2   Cosmic (Resolve)
Mv   3    Achilles Heel (Allure)
Sp   Gd   Disability (Agility)


She was still deadly in play, but not 4D10+2D4 powerful. Having unlimited increases with Cosmic was just too much.

Quote from: Bill Masek on June 04, 2006, 12:47:30 AM
Ok, so let me get this straight.  As the creator of the scenario, I decide who gets which tasks and their payoff.  The reason I don't give myself a task with a 100 point bonus upon completion of a 4 difficulty task is that my opponent could simply spend 50 of his 300 points to make the task impossible and he would get come out 50 points ahead.

First off, the custom scenario area needs a lot of work. But it is very, very important. Especially in competative play. The development has to be very structured so that players don't try to hose their opponents. The idea primarly is that in order to make challenges harder for your opponent you must spend your points.

I need ot spend more time on this element, and would be interested in any ideas you might have.

Quote from: Bill Masek on June 04, 2006, 12:47:30 AM
So why wouldn't I give my opponent a 100 point bonus task, then I spend the 50 points to make it impossible for him to succeed.  I would have a windfall of 50 points, granting me a significant advantage.

True. But a Heroic Deed can always be used to score the auto success. But I do need to work this out.

Quote from: Bill Masek on June 04, 2006, 12:47:30 AM
How can a Victory Condition be worth 100% of its GV?  I see how the characters who are worth 100 points would be worth 50 GV.  But victory conditions have no point value, and their post-completion influence upon the game are arbitrarily high by default.  So what exactly do you mean by this?

I am trying to figure out a good process for developing point values for obstalces based on the total points available for a game.

Quote from: Bill Masek on June 04, 2006, 12:47:30 AM
So, when you encounter the stone door, what happens?  Can the characters simply decide to ignore it and walk straight through?  What rule forces them to stop?

Assuming that they do need to interact with it, do they need to unlock it, find it and break it?  Or can they simply do one of the three?

Yes, instead of unlocking the door, you can simply kick your way through the door. So you need to take into account that a player might simply try to break it instead of disarm it. Also, they might try to cricumvent it.

Sometimes they might only function to slow down an opponent.

I will try to get these section more defined for you and repost them.

One more thing that became very obvious that might make reading a power listing a little easier. Lets say you have a character with Strength 16 and Brawl 14. The new power listing would look something like

14 Brawl + St (D10 + D4 + D10 + D6)...

I figure it would be easier to list the dice highest to lowest to make it less confusing to look at

14 Brawl + St (2D10 + D6 + D4)...

Then I thought, if I am no longer singling out attributes and powers when a character is surprised, immobilized, etc.--instead, everyting is just reduced by half--then it becomes even more simple to just use a combination of D10 and other dice to minimize the dice formula

14 Brawl + St (3D10) Melee, Skill: Combo, Counter, Knockback

Updated rules for character constructions, power (Special Ability costs), Special Abilities, Time and Movement, and Action Rolls have been uploaded to the same revision 1 location.

MrAtomek

Hi again;

While this formula:

Quote from: mratomek on June 05, 2006, 11:26:44 AM14 Brawl + St (D10 + D4 + D10 + D6)...

is mathematically equivalent to this formula:

Quote from: mratomek14 Brawl + St (2D10 + D6 + D4)...

This "reduction":

Quote from: mratomek14 Brawl + St (3D10)

is not.

d6 + d4 gives a range from 2 to 10; d10 gives a range from 1 to 10. In effect, someone who does that reduction is (a) changing the lowest possible value from 2 to 1, (b) influencing their outcomes to average closer to 5 rather than 5.5, and (c) switching from a bell curve range of value probability to a flat probability of each value. In short, they are making themselves suckier.

So I think you'd want to add a rule that players do all "summations" of stacking PLs BEFORE consulting the chart of PL-to-dice conversion. Basically, you want to try to keep folks from noticing that stacking-then-reduction makes them suckier than just stacking and rolling all dice (which would soon become a House Rule, if you let folks get used to seeing all the dice before the reduction).

HTH;
David

I agree. And as long as the conversions are uniform--which they will be--it will work out. So its not a matter of converting the dice any way you want (PL 40 is not 4D10 or 10D4--it's always 4D10).

Thanks for the comment.

MrAtomek

Matt,

I'll post the results of yesterday's playtest latter on today.  For now, here is the new version of She Who is Heaven and Bliss.

She Who is Heaven and Bliss

Champion
Cost:  600 Points

Strength:  3
Agility:  0, 0
Perception:  16
Intelligence:  4
Resolve:  4
Presence:  24
(84)

Action:  4
Size:  2
Move:  24
Spirit:  Good

Eternal
(50)

Cosmic Presence
(60)

24 (4d10+1d8+4) Allure Tg + Pr (Dm):   Short Range, Power Down, Single Shot, Enslave, Mass x 16, Point Blank, Deadeye, Cosmic, Enhanced+4
((32 + 25 + 48 + 5 + 10 + 60 + 20)/8 = 25)

20 (4d10+1d4+4) Cosmic Energy Tg + Pr (Dm):  Short Range, Enhanced +4, Ultimate
((32+10+30)/2=36)

24 (4d10+1d8+4) Dimensional Travel Sf + Pr (Dm), Blink, Enhanced +4, Cosmic
(32+15+15+60=138)

Blind Fighting
(10)

Disabled:  Agility
(-5)

(400)

Best,
        Bill

I'm looking forward to it.

The game we played was interesting. The evil Ice Age created a temporal anomaly that was allowing dinosaur to enter our reality. The heroes needed to close it off. The teams were Ice Age, a T-Rex and a bunch of mini-dinos versus Warhammer (hired gun), Comrade Super, some Spatznauts, and Von Stroph (a Vampiric Hero).

I wanted to test the alternate Fatality Roll, which seemed to work quite well. The more powerful heroes had a default "Life" of 2-3, most higher making use of Vitality to boost their scores. For the minions, originally I used 1 or 6 on a D6 for elimination which proved to be too hard to score. We changed it to 1-3 on a D6 for elimination and that worked much better.

As the game proceeded, a wave of mini-dinos assaulted Comrade Super who used his minions to great support effect and mowed through them--but not before the dinos ate about half of the Spatznauts.

Ice Age had also blasted Comrade Super and began building up the damage.

The T-Rex and Warhammer went at it also, blasting away at each other. The damage was always slow going--a point a round--until you choose a knockdown or glitch, which then halved their total. Halfing the total versus not allowing powers to stack was a lot smoother and easier to calculate.

In the end, Warhammer made a few good Fatality Rolls to remain alive. Then in one Turn he knocked the T-Rex down and did 8 total points of damage with his next 2 Actions which killed the king of dinosaurs.

However, a nearby baby-dino scored a lucky 1 point hit that caused Warhammer to make a Fatality Roll which he failed--and he went down.

I think the single PL12 power for a Minion made them far-more effective, but not too powerful.

Von Stroph turned invisibile and circled around the back of Ice Age and shoved her off a cliff. He then went to the anomally and started to try and shut it down (TN 4 x2).

Ice Age tried to take out Von Stroph, who simply turned invisible to finish his work on the anomally. Ice Age did could not find him or hit him with random attacks.

In all, it was a fun game that moved far more quickly and was easier to explain. I think some of your suggestions and the changes made are great improvements.

MrAtomek

On SHE...

Remember, regardless of how many drawbacks used, a power can only be reduced to a minimum of 1/2 its total value. So She, as you have her, is actually a 907 point character in game:


She Who is Heaven and Bliss

Champion
Cost:  907 Points

Strength:  3
Agility:  0
Perception:  16
Intelligence:  4
Resolve:  4
Presence:  24 (Cosmic)
(162)

Action:  4
Size:  2
Move:  24 (Cosmic)
Spirit:  Good
(108)

Eternal
(50)

24 (4d10+1d8+4) Allure Tg + Pr (Dm):   Short Range, Power Down, Single Shot, Enslave, Mass x 16, Point Blank, Deadeye, Cosmic, Enhanced+4

((48 + 10 + 48 + 5 + 10 + 60 + 20)/Half = 100)

20 (4d10+1d4+4) Cosmic Energy Tg + Pr (Dm):  Short Range, Enhanced +4, Ultimate
((40+20+30)/Half=45)

24 (4d10+1d8+4) Dimensional Travel Sf + Pr (Dm), Blink, Enhanced +4, Cosmic
(48+15+20+60=143)

Blind Fighting
(10)

Disabled:  Agility
(-5)

(605)

My Second Playtest:

I had a nice campaign set up.  My opponent would have had 3000 points to my 1000.  It would have began with a dream sequence and worked its way to a massive demonic summoning where my opponent would have to either defeat all my characters before the demon was summoned, or fight it with the survivors of both his and my characters when its summoning was completed.

However, my opponent did not make a team.  I told him I would email him the new rules for character creation and, well, they were never posted.  I offered to let him use some of the pieces I had put together.

There were some rule changes put in that day and I only had time to convert 3 of my characters over to the newest set.  They were:  The Butcher at 300 points, and a pair of martial artists at 200 each.  The martial artists used Counter and Block as their defensive powers, allowing them more focus on their attacks.  The Butcher was a standard brick, strong, invincible and wielding a big cleaver.

Combat went something like this:  His first martial artists leaped onto the top of a building.  The Butcher then leaped after, and started tearing into him.  The other martial artist followed and attacked The Butcher.  We spent a while attacking one and other, then his first martial artist died.  Then his second martial artist died.  Then the game was over.

I can say that 3 melee combatants duking it out makes for a very boring game.  We sat there attacking back and forth until one side died.  No strategy was necessary; there were no clever tactics possible.

I will say that I liked how Counter worked.  The advantage of a retaliation strike was nicely balanced by the extra damage received.  However, it is not anywhere near as powerful as a defensive power with Hardened.  When I scored 1 higher then my opponent with The Butcher I automatically scored 3 damage (all characters had Deadly) but my opponents would only do 1 even with deadly attacks.  Even though it was less powerful, this was offset by the fact that it only cost 5, instead of the 74 a good defensive power with hardened would have cost.

Best,
        Bill

Matt,

On defects...

You said....

QuoteRemember, regardless of how many drawbacks used, a power can only be reduced to a minimum of 1/2 its total value

Earlier you said...

QuoteThe maximum you can reduce an individual power listing's cost is by half, regardless of how many drawbacks you purchase. That might be too crappy of a rule.

Then I said...

QuoteI do agree, however, that the first is a fairly crappy solution.  But I am not really sure that it is even a problem.  Just something to keep your eye on during play testing.

Then you sent me rules that say...

QuoteSome special abilities do not allow you to stack them with other abilities when a character makes an action roll. A special
ability's description explains exactly when it can stack with other special abilities and when it can't.

And there is nothing in any of the defects saying that they do not stack.

Now, I agree that defect stacking can get silly.  Very silly.  I will give you an example of just how silly they can get.


Dusk Witch

Hero
Cost: 150

Strength:  2
Agility:  12
Intelligence:  4
Perception:  12
Resolve:  4
Presence:  0
(68)

Action:  5
Size:  1
Move:  12
Spirit:  Evil

20 (2d10+1d12+2) Mimic + Pc Target, Supernatural:  Equipment, Single Shot, Power Down, Presence Drain, Short Range, Multi-mimic, Power thief, Mass x 12, Enhanced+2, Cosmic, Quick Draw, Run and Shoot, Mastery, Point Blank, Taunt
((24+25+50+36+10+60+10+5+50+5+5)/32= 9)

20 (2d10+1d12+2) Hellfire + Pc Target, Supernatural:  Equipment, Single Shot, Power Down, Presence Drain, Short Range, Deadly, Mass x 12, Enhanced +2, Cosmic, Run and Shoot, Mastery, Point Blank, Knock Black, Knock Down, Piercing, Rapid Fire, Taunt
((60+50+36+10+60+5+50+5+5+5+15+5+5)/32)=10)

12 (2d10+1d4+2) Death + Pc Target, Supernatural:  Equipment, Single Shot, Power Down, Presence Drain, Short Range, Deadly, Mass x 12, Enhanced +2, Rapid Fire, Taunt
((24+50+36+10+5+5)/32=5)

12 (2d10+1d4+2) Fire + Pc Target, Supernatural:  Equipment, Single Shot, Power Down, Presence Drain, Short Range, Mass x 12, Enhanced +2, Rapid Fire, Taunt
((24+36+10+5+5)/32=3)

12 (2d10+1d4) Ice + Pc Target, Supernatural:  Equipment, Single Shot, Power Down, Presence Drain, Short Range, Mass x 12
((24+36)/32=2)

12 (2d10+1d4) Invisibility + Pc Self, Supernatural
(24)

12 Flight + Ag Self, Supernatural
(24)

Blind Fight
(10)

Disabled:  Presence

With unlimited ability stacking the Dusk Witch is a 150 pt Hero who can could slaughter Champions en-mass with a good first roll.  First, she steals all of their defensive powers and their best offensive power.  Then their roll is halved.  The next four attacks will eradicate the group.  True, She Who is Heaven and Bliss might be able to the Dusk Witch her 1 on 1, but not 4 of Dusk Witches.

However, limiting heroes to 1 defect per power is equally silly.  Are you saying that there are no short-range weapons?  All mana draining powers are totally reliable?  There are no spells which leave you drained?  This rule is not degenerate, but it is silly and reduces the options players have.

Perhaps a better fix would be to have the cost reduction increase linearly instead of exponentially.  So 1 defects would reduce the cost by 1/2, 2 defects would reduce it by 1/3, 3 would reduce it by 1/4, etc.  That way power discounts won't spiral out of control, but there are still reasons to have them.  (This was recommended by a friend of mine, who really likes DnD 3E.  It happens to be how they deal with halving halves.)

I should also mention that Power Drain is far to good of a defect.  You should always link it to an ability you have at 0.  Instead, force the players who purchase Power Drain to link it to the stat that the associated power is linked to.

Best,
        Bill

Matt,

Are you saying that Cosmic increases the PL of a stat/ability by 8, or that it increases the Max PL of the stat or ability by 8?  If Cosmic increases the PL by 8, then, even with her defects only halving her cost, the version of She Who is Heaven and Bliss only costs 475 (before 50% increase).

It would not make sense for Cosmic to increase the Max PL by a single stat or ability by a specific amount.  Just increase the cost of Cosmic and make it a solid increase.  You will never have a situation where someone buys cosmic, but only buys 4 extra PL with it.  If you want it to cost 78 per Cosmic instead of 60 that's fine (although a bit awkward) but then make Cosmic actually cost 78.

Quote
Action:  4
Size:  2
Move:  24 (Cosmic)
Spirit:  Good
(108)

Where does this come from?  I thought that the movement of a character was 4" or the movement of their travel power, which ever was higher.  So I put her travel power down for her movement.

Now if you can simply purchase movement for 1pt per 1" then I would write 4" (24" w/ DT) and consider making characters with their movement purchased this way instead of through travel powers.  However, I didn't see this anywhere in the rules.

Best,
        Bill

In the above post, 78 was supposed to be 76.

Bill, I appreciate your efforts and your help. The changes I am attempting to implement since talking to you have completely destabilized the rules--however, I almost have everything worked back out, and I do think the game has improved dramatically.

On drawbacks/defects, until I can come up with a better solution, lets leave it to 1 Drawback per power. It is simply too much of an abuse to buy a 200 point power for 25 points.

About Move, think of it as a power that all characters have. It is a basic movement ability. It allows a character to move 1" per PL per Action used. If you purchase another movement power, such as Super Speed, Flight or Dimensional Travel, you don't add that PL to your Move PL. Furthermore, you are limited to the same maximums as wiht all PL

Quote from: Bill Masek on June 06, 2006, 08:34:55 PM
Dusk Witch

Hero
Cost: 150

Strength:  2
Agility:  12
Intelligence:  4
Perception:  12
Resolve:  4
Presence:  0
(68)

Action:  3 (4)
Size:  1
Move:  12
Spirit:  Evil

(Move costs 2 pts per PL, Move 12 would cost 24 pts)

20 (2d10+1d12+2) Mimic + Pc Ranged, Supernatural:  Equipment, Single Shot, Power Down, Presence Drain, Short Range, Multi-mimic, Power thief, Mass x 12, Enhanced+2, Cosmic, Quick Draw, Run and Shoot, Mastery, Point Blank, Taunt
((24+25+50+36+10+60+10+5+50+5+5)/32= 9)

20 (2d10+1d12+2) Hellfire + Pc Target, Supernatural:  Equipment, Single Shot, Power Down, Presence Drain, Short Range, Deadly, Mass x 12, Enhanced +2, Cosmic, Run and Shoot, Mastery, Point Blank, Knock Black, Knock Down, Piercing, Rapid Fire, Taunt
((60+50+36+10+60+5+50+5+5+5+15+5+5)/32)=10)

12 (2d10+1d4+2) Death + Pc Target, Supernatural:  Equipment, Single Shot, Power Down, Presence Drain, Short Range, Deadly, Mass x 12, Enhanced +2, Rapid Fire, Taunt
((24+50+36+10+5+5)/32=5)

12 (2d10+1d4+2) Fire + Pc Target, Supernatural:  Equipment, Single Shot, Power Down, Presence Drain, Short Range, Mass x 12, Enhanced +2, Rapid Fire, Taunt
((24+36+10+5+5)/32=3)

12 (2d10+1d4) Ice + Pc Target, Supernatural:  Equipment, Single Shot, Power Down, Presence Drain, Short Range, Mass x 12
((24+36)/32=2)

12 (2d10+1d4) Invisibility + Pc Self, Supernatural
(24)

12 Flight + Ag Self, Supernatural
(24)

Blind Fight
(10)

Disabled:  Presence

With unlimited ability stacking the Dusk Witch is a 150 pt Hero who can could slaughter Champions en-mass with a good first roll.  First, she steals all of their defensive powers and their best offensive power.  Then their roll is halved.  The next four attacks will eradicate the group.  True, She Who is Heaven and Bliss might be able to the Dusk Witch her 1 on 1, but not 4 of Dusk Witches.

Although it is possible to create Heroes that can take out a champion, try recreating the Dust Witch using only a single Drawback per power.

Quote from: Bill Masek on June 06, 2006, 08:34:55 PM
However, limiting heroes to 1 defect per power is equally silly.  Are you saying that there are no short-range weapons?  All mana draining powers are totally reliable?  There are no spells which leave you drained?  This rule is not degenerate, but it is silly and reduces the options players have.

I agree, neither allowing a single Drawback or allowing a player to stack drawbacks are a good solution. But lets stick with a single drawback for now.

Quote from: Bill Masek on June 06, 2006, 08:34:55 PMPerhaps a better fix would be to have the cost reduction increase linearly instead of exponentially.  So 1 defects would reduce the cost by 1/2, 2 defects would reduce it by 1/3, 3 would reduce it by 1/4, etc.  That way power discounts won't spiral out of control, but there are still reasons to have them.  (This was recommended by a friend of mine, who really likes DnD 3E.  It happens to be how they deal with halving halves.)

That's not a bad idea. Let me do some math on that solution.

Quote from: Bill Masek on June 06, 2006, 08:34:55 PMI should also mention that Power Drain is far to good of a defect.  You should always link it to an ability you have at 0.  Instead, force the players who purchase Power Drain to link it to the stat that the associated power is linked to.

Good catch.

Quote from: Bill Masek on June 06, 2006, 08:58:19 PM
Are you saying that Cosmic increases the PL of a stat/ability by 8, or that it increases the Max PL of the stat or ability by 8?  If Cosmic increases the PL by 8, then, even with her defects only halving her cost, the version of She Who is Heaven and Bliss only costs 475 (before 50% increase).

Cosmic--and the others--only increases the PL maximum for an attribute or power. You still have to dump the points into the PL to raise the score.

Quote from: Bill Masek on June 06, 2006, 08:34:55 PMIt would not make sense for Cosmic to increase the Max PL by a single stat or ability by a specific amount.  Just increase the cost of Cosmic and make it a solid increase.  You will never have a situation where someone buys cosmic, but only buys 4 extra PL with it.  If you want it to cost 78 per Cosmic instead of 60 that's fine (although a bit awkward) but then make Cosmic actually cost 78.

I was just thinking that since no one is going to buy Cosmic and then not up the PL. I will change the costs.

Quote from: Bill Masek on June 06, 2006, 08:34:55 PM

Move:  24 (Cosmic)
(108)

Where does this come from?  I thought that the movement of a character was 4" or the movement of their travel power, which ever was higher.  So I put her travel power down for her movement.

Quote

Move is a generic movement power. The above means your character can move 24" per Action as well as dimensionally travel 24" per Action. The 108 points is for 24 at 2pts each + 60 for Cosmic. But I understand what you were trying to do with it.

Quote from: Bill Masek on June 06, 2006, 08:34:55 PMNow if you can simply purchase movement for 1pt per 1" then I would write 4" (24" w/ DT) and consider making characters with their movement purchased this way instead of through travel powers.  However, I didn't see this anywhere in the rules.

In under Move, just above Spirit, in the Building a Monster Character chapter.

Bill,

I will try to have all of these rules updated on a change sheet as well as a rules revision by friday morning.

Matt,

I like the new movement rule.  Make sure you add it into the new rules though, because it is not in the old one.

QuoteIf you want to make your character move faster than he is capable of doing with his Move score, you can purchase a specific movement power, such as Streak, Swim, Flight, Tunnel, etc. (see the Travel and Time Powers for a complete list).

QuoteMove does not cost any points.

Individual power/ability balance issues always occur during major periods of change.  When you find one fix it, but I wouldn't fret to much about them.  For now, worry most about getting your core game play down, major balance (like the finite costs for abilities and exponential rebate for drawbacks) and cutting down calculations.

I strongly recommend that you playtest the no stats version.  I bet that you will see a significant drop in complexity.

Oh, and the only reason I pasted the Dusk Witch was to demonstate the need for changes in the drawback system.  She is just like a powerful Champion but for the price of a low cost Hero.  Her costs would be 1/5 their base instead of 1/32 of it if you were to use the system I recommended.

Best,
        Bill

Quote from: Bill Masek on June 06, 2006, 08:05:17 PM
Combat went something like this:  His first martial artists leaped onto the top of a building.  The Butcher then leaped after, and started tearing into him.  The other martial artist followed and attacked The Butcher.  We spent a while attacking one and other, then his first martial artist died.  Then his second martial artist died.  Then the game was over.

I can say that 3 melee combatants duking it out makes for a very boring game.  We sat there attacking back and forth until one side died.  No strategy was necessary; there were no clever tactics possible.

Duke it out games are not so much fun, but there are tactics. Just out of curiosity, did either of you try a knockdown, knockback, Stun, etc.?

Quote from: Bill Masek on June 06, 2006, 08:05:17 PMI will say that I liked how Counter worked.  The advantage of a retaliation strike was nicely balanced by the extra damage received.  However, it is not anywhere near as powerful as a defensive power with Hardened.  When I scored 1 higher then my opponent with The Butcher I automatically scored 3 damage (all characters had Deadly) but my opponents would only do 1 even with deadly attacks.  Even though it was less powerful, this was offset by the fact that it only cost 5, instead of the 74 a good defensive power with hardened would have cost.

Ya, I think I need to increase the costs for Hardened, Eternal and undead.

Took another take at SHE...

She Who is Heaven and Bliss

Champion
Cost:  597 Points

Strength:  4
Agility:  0
Perception:  16
Intelligence:  4
Resolve:  4
Presence:  24
(184 pts (Includes 80 pts for Cosmic Presence))

Action:  4
Size:  2
Move:  4
Spirit:  Good
(8 pts)

Cosmic (Presence)
Eternal (50)

22 Allure + Pr (4D10+ D6) (Ranged) (Dm): Single Shot, Enslave, Mass x 10, Point Blank, Deadeye, Unearthly, Enhanced+2
((32 + 10 + 50 + 10 + 10 + 60 + 20)/Half = 106)

16 Cosmic Energy + Pr (4d10) (Ranged) (Dm):  Short Range, Enhanced +1
((32+10)/Half=21)

12  Dimensional Travel + Pr (4D10) (Self) (Dm): Blink
(28 + 10 = 38)

Disability (Agility)
398 Total

Okay,

I'm a firm believer in being open minded, so I am going to dive deeply into a no-attribute approach to Monster. It changes a lot, but the rules can be quickly adapted using the following changes:

Default Dice:
All characters have a default dice of D4. You can buy higher default dice at 25 pts. per increment (D6, D8, D10, D12, etc.). A character uses their default dice for all dice rolls that they have no other power for.

Attributes
The attributes become generalist powers. So a character could by Agility that wold allow him to attack, defend and make other balance/coordination rolls. However, with the exception of Equipment, Magic, Mighty, Ultimate, Unearthly, Cosmic and Enhanced, you cannot purchase any other special abilities for an attribute power.

LIfe
Life is back. Life is the what a character uses to make his Fatality Roll. It Costs 10 pts per PL.

Fatality Roll
A character does not have to make a Fatality Roll unless an opponent uses a Fatality, Knockout or Deathblow wound. Otherwise, when a characters Damage Level exceeds his Life he can attempt a roll, use a special ability (Heroic Deed) or he is eliminated. Minions still roll everytime they are hit.

Damage and Wounds
Not sure if the same 5 hits per wound will hold. Have to try it first. Most Likely, I will have make a 2-Wound hit more severe and a 3 wound hit fatal. Move Glitch and Injury down to 1 wound hits. I will have to mess with it.


TNs for Unopposed Rolls
TNs for Unopposed Rolls should be reduced by half.



Here's a sample character:

Comrade Super
Hero (298)

Default: D4
Actions: 3
Size: 0
Spirit: Good
Move: 6
Life: 8 (D8)

14 Super Strength (D10+D4) Melee (Sk): Mighty
14 Laser (D10+D4) Ranged (Sk): Equipment, Mighy, Deadeye, Single Shot
12 Brawl (D12) Melee (Sk): +1 Enhanced, Combo, Charge, Smash, Grab
12 Invulnerability (D12) Self (Skill): Equipment, +1 Enhanced
8 Discipline (D8) Self (Skill): Equipment
8 Leader (D8) Extended (Skill): Tactics, Strategy
8 Sensors (D8) Extended (Skill): Equipment
Disability (Agilie)
+1 Vitality



She Who is Heaven and Bliss
Champion Cost: 597 Points

Default: D4
Actions: 4
Size: 2
Spirit: Good
Move: 4
Life: 12 (D12)

Eternal: Relic
24 Allure (2D10+ D4) (Ranged) (Dm): Single Shot, Enslave, Mass x 10, Point Blank, Deadeye, Cosmic, Enhanced+2
16 Perception (D10 + D6) (Ranged) (Dm): Enhanced +1
16 Cosmic Energy (D10 + D6) (Ranged) (Dm):  Short Range, Enhanced +2, Deadeye
16  Dimensional Travel (D12) (Self) (Dm): Blink
+1 Vitality
Disability (Agility)


It does make things more simple, while still have a great deal of depth for the character.

Here's another--I think I like the format and the reduced clutter:

Bruce Lee
Hero (299)

Default: D4
Actions: 3
Size: 0
Spirit: Good
Move: 6
Life: 8 (D8)

16 Weapon (D10+D6) Melee (Sk): Equipment, Ultimate, +1 Enhanced, Combo, Counter, Reach x1, Knockdown, Knock Back, Slam, Taunt
12 Acrobatics (D12) Self (Sk): +1 Enhanced
12 Agility (D12) (Sk)
12 Discipline (D12) Self (Sk)
10 Search (D6) Extended (Sk)
+1 Prodigy
+1 Vitality

Came up with the perfect formula for determining Hits to Wounds/Success. And it is a lot easier to calculate:

Attack Total - Defense Total / 2 (Rounded Down)


Wounds are awarded at Slight (1 Wound), Severe (3 Wounds), Critical (5 Wounds) and Fatal (7 Wounds). Furthermore, Difficulties for TNs cost half as much.

For example, SHE uses her D16 Cosmic Energy to attack a thug with D8 Armored. SHE rolls a total attack of 13, the thug rolls a total defense of 5. The difference is 8 resulting in 4 wounds. SHE can do 4 Wounds of damage or cause 1 Severe Wound and 1 pont of Damage.

That works out a lot better, because with the new Halving rules for surprise, etc., 2-Wound wounds can be absolutely brutal--especially when a character can score a 0--OUCH!

Matt,

I like it.  It is a lot simpler, but allows for an equal amount of character diversity.  I do have a couple of minor comments.

If damage is (att-def)/2 instead of (att-def)/5 then Eternal and Hardened are powered down, so I wouldn't up their costs just yet.  I never saw Undead as broken, because there was no reason not to make most of your powers one of the three that they are vulnerable to.  Honestly, I thought 25 was balanced originally when special abilities were very expensive.  If anything, I would recommend dropping it down to 15.  And I would like to see more powers like undead, but with different weaknesses.  Only allow characters to take one of the Undead like powers though.  You could be made of ice and vulnerable to fire, hellfire and white fire.  You could be made of fire and be vulnerable to acid, ice and water,  etc.

With the new defense system, 10 pts per HP is to expensive.  With 5/damage 10pts was expensive but still good.  With 2/damage, damage will be racked up REAL fast with the HP being a much more minor buffer.  A very expensive minor buffer which should only be purchased after the defensive power is maxed out.  I'd cost it down to 4 pts per point of life.  That is effectively what it was priced at originally, but now it will do less.

Best,
        Bill

Next chance you get, try the game at 5 pts per wound and Life at 10 points per point and slight wounds 1, severe wounds 2, critical wound 3 and fatal at 5. See if the game crawls too much.

I suppose that a standard hero with a D12 could still score 3 wound criticals. And at 5 pts/wound champions are still reasonable on the battle field. Minions are still descent but weak.

I will try the same and compare notes.

MrAtomek

Matt,

I will wait my next playtest until you have the new rules posted.

However, once you have the new rules up and I can convice some [people to play again I will be happy to try out the 5/1 damage/difference ratio.  Although I am not quite sure what exactly "slight wounds", "severe wounds", "critical wounds" and "fatal wounds" mean.

Best,
        Bill

When a characters scors wounds, he can choose what to do with those wounds. He can simply choose to cause damage at 1 wound per point of damage or he can exchange wounds for other in-game effects:

   Wounds   Level   Types

   1   Slight         Advantage, Damage, Disrupt, Hold, Knock Back

   2   Severe       Disarm, Eliminate, Escape, Glitch, Injury,Knock Out, Lock, Knockdown, Slam, Stun

   3   Critical     Cripple, Destroy, Fatality, Malfunction, Reverse, Take Down

   4   Fatal       Deathblow


The wounds make combat far more tactical. Rather than using 2 wounds to cause 2 wounds of damage, you can opt to Glitch a n oppoent's Armored power, causing it to be reduced by half for the remainder of the Round, or Knock Out which forces an opponent to make an immediate Fatality Roll versus his damage level. If he fails, he is KO'ed.

It's in the Action Roll section of the manual. Its a big part of what makes the game fun.

MrAtomek

Ah, the alternate damage table.  Gotchya.

By the way, here's a little something I drew up.  Tell me if it fits your sensabilities.

Amazing Kid

Hero
Cost: 150

Base:  d12
Action:  3
Life:  4 (40)
Size:  1
Move:  10 (10)
Spirit:  Good

Base Dice Increase x4
(100)

Best,
        Bill

And just for fun, heres the current version of our favorite cosmic entity.

She Who is Heaven and Bliss

Champion
Cost:  600 Points

Base:  d4
Action:  4
Life:  8
Size:  2
Move:  2 (24 w/ DT)
Spirit:  Good

Eternal
(50)

24 (2d10+d4+4) Allure Tg + Pr (Dm):   Short Range, Enslave, Mass x 16, Point Blank, Cosmic, Enhanced+4
((32 + 25 + 48 + 5 + 80 + 20)/2 = 105)

16 (d10+d6+4) Cosmic Energy Tg + Pr (Dm):  Short Range, Enhanced +4, Blast
((32+20+4)/2=28)

24 (2d10+1d4+4) Dimensional Travel Sf + Pr (Dm), Blink, Enhanced +4, Cosmic
(32+15+15+60=132)

Blind Fighting
(10)

Disabled:  Agility
(-5)

(400)


I like move costing 1pt/pl.  It makes a nice sink for extra points.

Best,
        Bill

typo.  She shoulden't have blast

Quote from: Bill Masek on June 07, 2006, 07:02:16 PM
Ah, the alternate damage table.  Gotchya.

By the way, here's a little something I drew up.  Tell me if it fits your sensabilities.

Amazing Kid

Hero
Cost: 150

Base:  d12
Action:  3
Life:  4 (40)
Size:  1
Move:  10 (10)
Spirit:  Good

Base Dice Increase x4
(100)

Best,
        Bill

It would be, but I thought ablout that yesterday and there has to be a cap on default dice, otherwise you could drop 200 points and have a default of D20.

Since defaults are only supposed to cover that which you do not have a specific power for and by not buying a power you are essentially saying the character is not good or superior at doing it, I am thinking

Minion D4
Hero D4 or D6
Champion D4, D6 or D8

MrAtomek

Matt,

Quotebut I thought about that yesterday and there has to be a cap on default dice

I was under the assumption that there would be a cap.  However, I don't see any reason why that cap has to be bellow the normal cap for a power.

Characters like Amazing Kid are great at compleating non-combat objectives.  They are also so-so in combat, but a combat monster of the same point value will own them.  After all, 25pts/base-increase prevent them from buying too many real powers or health.

I think that you should either just give the different ranks different base rolls (d4 for minions, d6 for heroes and d8 for champions) or allow them to increase their base roll to their natural maximum (d8 minion, d12 hero, d10+d6 champion).

Best,
       Bill

Quote from: Bill Masek on June 07, 2006, 07:24:36 PM
And just for fun, heres the current version of our favorite cosmic entity.

She Who is Heaven and Bliss

Champion
Cost:  600 Points

Base:  d4
Action:  4
Life:  8
Size:  2
Move:  2 (24 w/ DT)
Spirit:  Good

Eternal
(50)

24 (2d10+d4+4) Allure Tg + Pr (Dm):   Short Range, Enslave, Mass x 16, Point Blank, Cosmic, Enhanced+4
((32 + 25 + 48 + 5 + 80 + 20)/2 = 105)

16 (d10+d6+4) Cosmic Energy Tg + Pr (Dm):  Short Range, Enhanced +4, Blast
((32+20+4)/2=28)

24 (2d10+1d4+4) Dimensional Travel Sf + Pr (Dm), Blink, Enhanced +4, Cosmic
(32+15+15+60=132)

Blind Fighting
(10)

Disabled:  Agility
(-5)

(400)


I like move costing 1pt/pl.  It makes a nice sink for extra points.

Best,
        Bill

To me SHE is now looking a bit more balanced. She has dumped all her points into a truly cosmic level effect and travel with a very powerful, but not cosmic level powerful, CosmicEnergy.

And she still has potential exploits. Surprise attacks will cut her Blink ability in half. Immunity (Allure) would completely disable her power, Darkened would also and affect her Cosmic Energy attack as well.

Hmmm... just thought of something. Although SHE could use DT to defend against all attacks. If someone actually made a successfully effect attack--such as Domination--should she be able to use DT to make challenge rolls. Have to think about that.

There is a miscalculation on:

24 (2d10+1d4+4) Dimensional Travel Sf + Pr (Dm), Blink, Enhanced +4, Cosmic
(32+15+15+60=132)

Should be
(32+15+20+80=147)

Here is another champion level character



Brimstone
Champion (600)

Default: D6
Actions: 4
Size: 0
Life: D10
Move: 6
Spirit: Good

24 Armored (2D10 + D4) (Self) (Dimensional): Relic, Cosmic, Astral
20 Strength (2D10): Relic, Ultimate
20 Weapon (2D10) (Melee) (Dimensional): Relic, Ultimate, Reach x1, Combo, Charge, Grab
20 Fire (2D10) (Ranged) (Dimensional): Relic, Ultimate, Blast Through
16 Resist (D10 + D6) (Self) (Dimensional): Relic
12 Flight (D12) (Self) (Dimensional): Relic
10 Search (D10) (Ranged) (Dimensional)
Darkened: Relic
+4 Vitality: Relic
Achilles Heel (Cold).

His downfall is that using the alternate Wounds, a good hit can be used to weaken or destroy any one of his powers that uses Relic.

I really like the new character format too.

I will try to have all the rules updated and posted tonight for your next play test. I will also try to have a change-control summary page.

Mr Atomek

Quote from: Bill Masek on June 08, 2006, 12:19:28 PM
Matt,

Quotebut I thought about that yesterday and there has to be a cap on default dice

I was under the assumption that there would be a cap.  However, I don't see any reason why that cap has to be bellow the normal cap for a power.

Characters like Amazing Kid are great at compleating non-combat objectives.  They are also so-so in combat, but a combat monster of the same point value will own them.  After all, 25pts/base-increase prevent them from buying too many real powers or health.

I think that you should either just give the different ranks different base rolls (d4 for minions, d6 for heroes and d8 for champions) or allow them to increase their base roll to their natural maximum (d8 minion, d12 hero, d10+d6 champion).

Best,
       Bill

I supppose since a character with default dice cannot use a lot of special abilities there is a down side to it. Maybe it scales cost wise:



D4   0 points
D6   25 points
D8   50 points   Minion Cap
D10  100 points
D12  200 points  Hero Cap
D14  300 points
D16  400 points  Champion Cap

Essentially a D16 Champion could do everything really well, but a specialzied character would have a substantially ability to use an 24 Allure versus him or her. And, he basicaly has no points leftover.

I am will to try it. I am setting up a game tonight and am eager to try a lot of these rule mods.

Mr Atomek

The new format plus default dice works a lot better with Minions:

SWAT
Minion (58)

Default: D8
Actions: 2
Size: 0
Life: D6
Move: 6
Spirit: Good

I think I am going to make the Fatality Roll TN for all Minions a TN 4 for a 1 point of damage hit. If you spend more points on his Life score, he can have a better chance of remaining alive.

2-Wound hit is still automatic elimination.



SWAT Sniper
Minion (74)

Default: D8
Actions: 2
Size: 0
Life: D8
Move: 6
Spirit: Good

12 Sniper Rifle (Weapon) (D12) (Ranged) (Skill): Equipment

And here is a little tougher unit.

Bill,

The updated file is at:

http://www.monsterrules.com/resources/Monster_Rules_Revision_2.pdf

Evil Captain America


Skull Face
Hero (300)

Default: D8
Actions: 3
Size: 0
Life: D8
Move: 6
Spirit: Good

16 Shield (Weapon) (D12) (Melee) (Skill): Equipment, +1 Enhanced, Expert, Combo, Knockdown, Block, Counter, Grab, Throw, Ultimate
10 Sneak (D10) (Self) (Skill)
10 Strength (D10) (Self) (Skill)
10 Discipline (D10) (Self) (Skill)
8 Leader (D10) (Self) (Skill): Strategy, Tactics

Heroic Deed
Heroic Recovery
+1 Prodigy
+1 Vitality

Bill,

Finally had a chance to playtest the new rule changes and I was quite pleased. It was a 600 vs. 600 game with the heroes attempting to rescue a captured FBI agent. The heroes were Camouflage (more of a PL 12 character with lots of abilities) and Iron Goliath (an Ultimate hero with a few PL 16 powers that were all equipment to keep costs down).

The villians were Skull Face (the evil version of Cap), a side kick named Bone Breaker and another five D8 Skull Terrorists (Minions)

In the first two games, the heroes ruled the roost, taking out all the Minions first and then polishing of Skull Face. Hardened (Eternal and Undead) are very, very powerful, but I was okay with it.

A few good rule tweaks even the battle field a bit. 1). Glitch and Malfunction not only cause the targeted Equipment power to be reduced by half when used, but also negate all of the powers special abilities.  2). A character with Leader benefits from any of his Minions gain surprise on an opponent from position (being in his rear area). So if one of his men is in a surprise position, Skullface got it as well.

In the Third Game Skullface clued in on another strategy. If Iron Goliath rolled low, he would use his acrobatics rather then his Shield: Block to defend, gaining the ability to manuever into his rear area as well. Furthermore, he started with his men spread about the map instead clumped into a single target that was easy for Camouflage to blast away with his Fire power.

One fight went to the heroes and one went to the villains.

The Fatality and Knockout wounds are fairly powerful now. Goliath had a Life D12 with +2 Vitality, so it always took a long time to beat him down. But in the last game, Skull Face was able to use Manuever to out-position him and score a Glitch. At the time, Goliath had only taken 7 points of damage and Skullface was at a 6.

In the hit, Skullface did another 2 wounds of damage and then scored another 3-wound damage. Since, there was a good chance he would loose with Goliaths next attacks, he selected the Fatality, forcing the Goliath to make a Fatality Roll versus a TN 9. And he failed! Down he went.

I was happy with the use of Default Dice and Minions as well.

The game was a lot faster playing--with some particularly brutal dice rolls 1 vs. 18--Ouch!

Mr Atomek

One more thing to try: Some of the heroes were racking up the damage fairly quickly. So when Heroes and Champions make Fatality Rolls, they use two dice (That's two dice for their Life PL). For example, if a character has a Life 8, he rolls 2xD8 to make a Fatality Roll. Or if a character has a Life of 16, he would roll D01+D6 x2.

Minions, only the other hand, only roll one dice and always versus a TN of 4 (unless they have been hit for 2 wounds/Elimination, in which case they are automatically eliminated.

MrAtomek

Matt,

I like where this game is going.  I'm going to build a few new test characters and see if I can pull together another playtest.

A couple of questions:

We talked earlier about increasing the point cost of powers.  I noticed that most are at a 1/1 ratio in the new rules.  Is that a typo or a decision?

Have you considered condensing the powers a bit?  You have a lot of elemental/energy powers which all do the same thing.  It would be easier to read and build characters if all of the powers which were effectively the same were grouped together.  Same thing with control and travel powers.  It would also make the cool unique powers stand out more.  You already did it with Enhanced and it looks good.  I think you need to streamline the rest of the powers/abilities.

Best,
        Bill

Quote from: Bill Masek on June 09, 2006, 10:19:21 PM
Matt,

I like where this game is going.  I'm going to build a few new test characters and see if I can pull together another playtest.

A couple of questions:

We talked earlier about increasing the point cost of powers.  I noticed that most are at a 1/1 ratio in the new rules.  Is that a typo or a decision?

If it states PL that means 2 pts per PL unless noted otherwise. I shold probably make that more explicit.

Quote from: Bill Masek on June 09, 2006, 10:19:21 PM
Have you considered condensing the powers a bit?  You have a lot of elemental/energy powers which all do the same thing.  It would be easier to read and build characters if all of the powers which were effectively the same were grouped together.  Same thing with control and travel powers.  It would also make the cool unique powers stand out more.  You already did it with Enhanced and it looks good.  I think you need to streamline the rest of the powers/abilities.

I will have a look through. The problem is I can put probably 15 of the energy/elemental powers together, and then there will be a few odd stragglers like Gravity, Web, Electromagnetic that let you do different things. It wil probably work fine, I just such a symetry freak.

I am planning on banging on the game for the rest of the month and then dive into a heavy rewrite and repost of all the rules in July for a larger, beta test announcement.

I will probably print a few as well so people can have a manual in hand. I will make sure to send you and your friends some copies.

I really appreciate all your help, Bill.

MrAtomek

Matt,

QuoteI will have a look through. The problem is I can put probably 15 of the energy/elemental powers together, and then there will be a few odd stragglers like Gravity, Web, Electromagnetic that let you do different things. It will probably work fine, I just such a symmetry freak.

I recommend that you create power-specific special abilities to cover the unique rules for those powers.  Who is to say that you couldn't use the powers of light to grab someone and hold them in place as well as blast them (green lantern, anyone?) or cast mystical gems which are especially potent vs evil?  You already have the power-specific special abilities for powers like absorb.  Now you need to take all the powers you have, group them, and allow people to customise them.

For example, nearly all of your defensive powers could be merged into 1.  Absorb, acrobatics, invulnerability, armor, resist, ego shield, etc. could all be one single power with options and special abilities to differentiate them.  Perhaps you need to choose, for each defense, whether it protects against Effects or Damage.  Then you can add special abilities like hardened, backlash, maneuver and everything else you might want to possibly effect their defense.  Perhaps by default it only protects against non-area of effect attacks and when not surprised, but defense for each may be purchased for a 1pt/pl.

I would recommend this format for the final power layout:

<player defined name>:  <number> <kind> (<dice>+<all relitive enhancements>) (<choices>):  <options>

example:

Crippling Stare:  16 Damage (1d10+1d6+4) (darkness, target, supernatural):  deadly, enhanced +4, gripping

where gripping would be the key word for the web ability.

QuoteI am planning on banging on the game for the rest of the month and then dive into a heavy rewrite and re-post of all the rules in July for a larger, beta test announcement.

I will probably print a few as well so people can have a manual in hand. I will make sure to send you and your friends some copies.

Very cool, I do appreciate it.  If you would like help tuning the powers so that they are balanced I would be glad to continue to lend a hand.  Otherwise, let me know when everything is ready for futher outside playtesting.

QuoteI really appreciate all your help, Bill.

You are welcome.  I have enjoyed helping.  I just wish that you lived in the chicago area we could actually meet and work on this game in person.  Who knows, perhaps we will meet at gencon.

Matt,

There was one more question I forgot to ask in my last post.  In your last post you stated:

QuoteIf it states PL that means 2 pts per PL unless noted otherwise.

In the rules it says both:

QuoteAnti-Matter
Cost: PL

and

QuoteWhite Fire
Cost: 2 pts / PL

If the former means 2pts/PL then are the two priced equally?  Before you had Anti-matter priced cheaper then White Fire because of its situational bonus.

Best,
        Bill

the 2 pts / PL is a typo. I will clarify all that.

And by all means, keep playing and sending me notes. The more playing done, the better the game becomes. You really understand what I am trying to do and your POV is very different from my own, which is very useful.

Keep your posts coming.

I have finally gotten around to updating the Website. It isn't much,but it is a lot more than was there before. The character on the front page will eventually be a random seed. Keep your eyes peeled for SHE. I will try to get some artwork done for her tonight.

MrAtomek

Here's a quick list of power condensation into Damage, Defense, Psychological States, Skills, Travel Powers and a few odds & ends:


Agile
Alter Realtiy
Animate
Artistic
Astral Form: Astral Nova
Atheletic
Bluff
Blur
Business (Merchant)
Capacity
Cling
Communicate
Comprehend
Computers
Confuse (General Effect: Can't Command or Communicate or Attack)
Consume
Courage (General Effect: Gain +modifier)
Craft
Create
Culture
Damage (Aura)
Damage (Melee)
Damage (Ranged)
Death (Damage but an Effect)
Defense (Damage)
Defense (Damage & Effect)
Defense (Effect)
Defense (Effect & Challenge)
Defense (Damage, Effect & Challenge)
Doubt (General Effect: Gain -modifier)
Detect (ESP)
Weaken (General Effect: By Source all or specific power halved)
Dimensional Travel
Domination
Duplication
Elasticity
Entangle
Envy (General Effect: Must Possess something)
Good (Evil & Chaos) (General Effect: Control Spirit)
Growth
Fatigue (General Effect: Reduced Actions)
Fear (General Effect:runaway)
Flght:    
Friend (General Effect: Ally with target)
Hate (General Effect: Control who opponent attacks)
Heal
Holy (Unholy & Law) (General Effect of Damage vs. spirit)
Illusion
Immunity
Indifference (General Effect: won't Help)
Insanity (General Effect: Random)
Intelligence
Knowledge (Lore)
Leader
Leaping
Life Support
Love (Attraction): (General Effect: Will protect)
Mechanic
Mimic
Multi-Power
Null Field
Pacify (General Effect: Not Attack)
Paranoid (Genreal Effect: Attacks Everyone)
Paralysis (General Effect: Can't Move physically)
Perception
Phase
Pilot
Plague
Precognition (Post Cognition)
Presence
Profession
Unconscious (General Effect: No Actions)
Psionic Blast (Effect does damage)
Boost (General Effect: Raises attribute)
Ride
Science
Search
Sense
Sensory Negation
Shape Shift
Shrink
Slow
Sneak (Hide)
Speed (Haste)
Stasis (General Effect: Freeze body and mind)
Steal
Streetwise
Strength
Summon
Super Speed
Survive
Swarm
Swimming
Swinging
Symbiote (Possession)
Telepathy
Time Control
Transfer
Transform
Tunneling



Fire Blast: 16 Damage (Fire) (D10+D6+1) Melee (Dm): Combo, Blastx2, Grab, Smash, Charge

Wicked Blade: 12 Damage (Weapon) (Darkness) (Evil) (D10+D6+1) Melee (Su): Relic, Deadly, Cleave, Combo, Block


I like the idea of naming the power--that's just more Flava. I still think I will have people identify the Damage as Brawl, Weapon or some energy or elemental force, so that people can purchase an immunity or Achilles Heel.

I broke out Defense into five basic types, then people can buy additional abilities to negate the effects of Surpirse, etc.

Doomplate: 16 Defense (D10+D6+1) Self (Dm): Relic, Damage & Effect, Lawless

Defiant Spirit: 16 Defense (D10 + D6 + 1) Self (Dm): Effect & Challenge


You could even have multiple powers under one name heading:


Hypnotic Stare:
     16 Domination (D10+D6+1) Ranged (Su): Linger
     16 Weaken (D10+D6+1) Ranged (Su): Linger

Matt,

Quotethe 2 pts / PL is a typo. I will clarify all that.

Is the cost supposed to be 2pts/PL like the abilities that just say PL, or is there supposed to be a different cost?

QuoteAnd by all means, keep playing and sending me notes. The more playing done, the better the game becomes. You really understand what I am trying to do and your POV is very different from my own, which is very useful.

I'm glad that I am able to help.  Hopefully I will be able to get more people to playtest with and be able to post results more regularly.

QuoteKeep your eyes peeled for SHE. I will try to get some artwork done for her tonight.

Cool!  Please feel free to use her and any other characters I send you.  Of course, I still reserve the right to use any characters I create in any games, works of fiction, etc. that I create, but please feel free to use her in any and all capacities for this game.


Here are some recommendations for further condensation:

Talents:  (Artistic, Business, Craft, Pilot, Culture, Ride, Science Computers, etc.)
Dominate:  (Insanity, pacify, paranoid, paralysis, <what is currently called dominate>, love, fear, etc.)
Stealth:  (Invisibility, sneak, etc.)
Sense:  (ESP, heightened sense, search, etc.)
Summon:  (Animate, summon, duplicate, etc.)
Travel:  (Dimensional travel, flight, swim, tunnel, climb, etc.)
etc.

Others, like Leader and Capacity should be left as their own abilities.

Basically, if a power has a similar effect to other powers then group it.  If you want that specific effect to be attainable, turn it into a limited special ability for that power.  You can even make the cost increase 0.

For example:  The base travel ability might let them walk at 1 PT/PL.  All other abilities (Dimensional Travel, Flight, etc.) may be purchased as limited abilities at a cost of +1 PT/PL with a limit of only being able to purchase 1.  Then allow all special abilities which are currently linked to travel powers to be linked to this power.  Some of them, like the ability to link the travel power to defense, might require the player to purchase one of those limited special abilities.


A couple of nit-picks:

I would like to see more special abilities like undead.  Also, make undead less expensive.  Hardened and Cosmic are damn powerful, but they have no draw back.  Undead has a huge drawback which makes it to weak at its cost.  Also, without more, similar abilities, there is little reason not to simply take the abilities which are vulnerable to as supposed to the ones that they are not.  If you had more abilities of a similar nature, this would be a non-issue.

Shadow/Dark is the Hellfire power on the cheep.  They are identical except the first says PL for cost and the other says 2 pts/PL.  If they are the same then both are superior to, say, Cosmic Energy which does not do any extra damage vs anything.

I think you should move Point Blank back to a 5 cost ability.  I say this because I see no reason why minions should not be able to purchase this ability and its not all that powerful. If you think it should be moved up to 10, then let minions purchase abilities which cost 10.

I have not tested it yet, but minions with Body Guard are looking VERY powerful.  I think its cool and flavorful, but watch to make sure that it is not game breaking.

I have not tested this, but taunt chains strike me as scary.  Hit opponent with a Taunt power.  Halve his defensive power.  Strike opponent again for twice the damage, halve his defense power again.  Hit opponent a third time for double damage.  Halve his next roll.  And just imagine, at the end of a turn, being attacked 40 times by 20 minions all with this ability.  I like the idea behind the ability, and I am not positive this is a problem, but playtest it to make sure.  Otherwise its a very cool ability with nice flavor.

Best,
        Bill

Quote from: Bill Masek on June 11, 2006, 01:38:41 AM
Matt,

Quotethe 2 pts / PL is a typo. I will clarify all that.

Is the cost supposed to be 2pts/PL like the abilities that just say PL, or is there supposed to be a different cost?

Quote

2 pts / PL and PL both cost 2 pts / PL

Quote from: Bill Masek on June 11, 2006, 01:38:41 AM
Talents:  (Artistic, Business, Craft, Pilot, Culture, Ride, Science Computers, etc.)
Dominate:  (Insanity, pacify, paranoid, paralysis, <what is currently called dominate>, love, fear, etc.)
Stealth:  (Invisibility, sneak, etc.)
Sense:  (ESP, heightened sense, search, etc.)
Summon:  (Animate, summon, duplicate, etc.)
Travel:  (Dimensional travel, flight, swim, tunnel, climb, etc.)
etc.

I like the condensation where it makes sense, but I want to keep a distinction between the basics of what you can do (power) and extending that ability (special abilities). Otherwise, the game ends of with 3 powers and 1,000 special abilities. Then you have the same problem.

For example, there are some sublte differences between Animate, Duplicate, Illusion and Summon that I thnk make it easier to have them as seperate powers versus a single power with the sublties spelled out by special abilites.

Quote from: Bill Masek on June 11, 2006, 01:38:41 AM
I would like to see more special abilities like undead.  Also, make undead less expensive.  Hardened and Cosmic are damn powerful, but they have no draw back.  Undead has a huge drawback which makes it to weak at its cost.  Also, without more, similar abilities, there is little reason not to simply take the abilities which are vulnerable to as supposed to the ones that they are not.  If you had more abilities of a similar nature, this would be a non-issue.

Agreed.

Quote from: Bill Masek on June 11, 2006, 01:38:41 AM
Shadow/Dark is the Hellfire power on the cheep.  They are identical except the first says PL for cost and the other says 2 pts/PL.  If they are the same then both are superior to, say, Cosmic Energy which does not do any extra damage vs anything.

I need to look at that. I took the "modeling" approach to the disign, assuming players would pick a power based on what their character is. But there is a group of players that will always go for the throat and manipulate the system. The costs have to take that into account.

Quote from: Bill Masek on June 11, 2006, 01:38:41 AM
I think you should move Point Blank back to a 5 cost ability.  I say this because I see no reason why minions should not be able to purchase this ability and its not all that powerful. If you think it should be moved up to 10, then let minions purchase abilities which cost 10.

Its a balance issue versus throw. Need to work on it. But yes, there should be some basic SAs that are 5 points that a Minion can pruchase.

Quote from: Bill Masek on June 11, 2006, 01:38:41 AM
I have not tested this, but taunt chains strike me as scary.  Hit opponent with a Taunt power.  Halve his defensive power.  Strike opponent again for twice the damage, halve his defense power again.  Hit opponent a third time for double damage.  Halve his next roll.  And just imagine, at the end of a turn, being attacked 40 times by 20 minions all with this ability.  I like the idea behind the ability, and I am not positive this is a problem, but playtest it to make sure.  Otherwise its a very cool ability with nice flavor.

The most a character's roll can be reduced is by half. Regardless of how many ill effects he is suffering. I just describe it all as overkill. So even if he is immobilized, surprised, hit with an area attack and his power is malfunctioning, his total reduction is still half.

On the other hand, if his power was Destroyed or Crippled (permanent effects) and then he is Suprised, Immobilized, Injured, glitched, etc. (temporary) then it would be halved twice.

Try it this way, if the affects of the halving are only temporary (meaning they end at the end of the current Round, Turn, Action, when a character looses control or when a lingering effect ends), they do not stack up. If the effects are permanent (meaning they continue to exist from Round to Round without an end unless the character takes corrective action), then they can stack up.

Matt,

QuoteI like the condensation where it makes sense, but I want to keep a distinction between the basics of what you can do (power) and extending that ability (special abilities). Otherwise, the game ends of with 3 powers and 1,000 special abilities. Then you have the same problem.

I do not believe that you will run into this problem for several reasons.

Most of the truly unique abilities like Leadership and Capacity should not be grouped.  They are unique.  They should remain unique.  However, with hundreds of very similar-but-not-identical abilities floating around these different and unique abilities get easily lost in the shuffle.

By grouping them, if somebody has already chosen an ability of a certain kind and does not want another, he or she can very easily skip over the rest.  On the other hand, if they want a specific kind of ability, it will be easy to find.  They spend less time looking through abilities and spend less time creating the characters.

The different between duplicate and summon is less then the difference between summon with the hero limited special ability and the regular summon.  The subtle grades can be beautifully represented in special abilities.  But if you spread them across the massive chapter, their subtlety will be lost to all but the most experienced players and they will seem identical.

Powers that I labled as talents are identical in that they provide silver bullets for situational problems.  The only time you can use pilot is if there is a vehicle.  The only time you can use computers is if there is a minigame with computers.  The only time you can use culture is the same.  Same with business.

If you want to say Pilot should be separate because it can be used with loose equipment then that's fine, but then expand on that in the description and group it with other powers that enable the use of loose equipment  (if any others exist) and group the silver bullets that can not be combined with loose equipment in another group.

QuoteQuote from: Bill Masek on June 10, 2006, 04:38:41 PM
I think you should move Point Blank back to a 5 cost ability.  I say this because I see no reason why minions should not be able to purchase this ability and its not all that powerful. If you think it should be moved up to 10, then let minions purchase abilities which cost 10.


Its a balance issue versus throw. Need to work on it. But yes, there should be some basic SAs that are 5 points that a Minion can purchase.

Point blank would have to be made a lot more expensive to make it, combined with short range, to be balanced with Melee + Throw.  A better balancing technique would be to give melee attacks some superior special abilities to balance them out.  Right now the only unique one they have is Cleave, which is a far inferior version of Blast x1 for the same price.  Their others like Combo and Charge are identical to Run and Shoot and Rapid Fire.

QuoteThe most a character's roll can be reduced is by half. Regardless of how many ill effects he is suffering. I just describe it all as overkill. So even if he is immobilized, surprised, hit with an area attack and his power is malfunctioning, his total reduction is still half.

Actually, the stacking thing is not what I am worried about.  Halving an abilities is a scary thing.  The taunt chain can keep that target's defensive rolls halved for a very long time, vastly increasing the damage that target would receive.  Normally you need to exchange damage for this effect, but with taunt, its free.  I suppose I see it as kind of like Deadly but for 5 points instead of 50.  Still, it is a LOT more limited then Deadly and might not be a problem.  Just something to keep your eyes on during playtesting.

(Speaking of which, in my next playtest, I will have an army of Zibs (25pt cost minions) with this special ability to see how it plays out.)

Best,
       Bill

I agree with pretty much everything you are saying.

By the way, if you do have any ideas for unique special abiliites, like Undead, please let me know.


Here's a Superman, with all the new notations and rules:

Superman
Champion (600)

Actions: 4
Default: D8
Size: 0
Life: D16
Move: 16
Spirit: Good

22 Strength  (D10 + D12) (Dm): Unearthly (5,000 Tons)
Laser Vision: 16 Damage (Laser)  (D10 + D6) (Ranged) (Dm): Deadeye, Sharpshooter, Point Blank, Single Shot
Defiant Spirit: 16 Defense (Effect & Challenge)  (D16) (Self) (Sk)
16 Fight (D10 + D6) (Self) (Dm): Super Sonic, Swoop

+1 Planar
+1 Vitality
Heroic Recovery x2
Achilles Heel (Kryptonite)


Basic Strength can be used for Damage (Melee) attack and a Defense (Damage) defense. No other modifiers can be applied.

I meant no other power specific special abilities can be applied. The Planar special ability does modify Strength.

Matt,

I think that you are on the right path.  Consider:

Superman
Champion (600)

Actions: 4
Default: D8
Size: 0
Life: D16
Move: 16
Spirit: Good

22 Strength  (D10 + D12) (Dimensional): Unearthly (5,000 Tons)
Laser Vision: 16 Damage (Laser)  (D10 + D6) (Ranged) (Dimensional): Deadeye, Sharpshooter, Point Blank, Single Shot
Defiant Spirit: 16 Defense (Effect & Challenge)  (D16) (Self) (Skill)
Super-sonic Flight:  16 Movement (D10 + D6) (Self) (Dimensional): Flight, Super Sonic, Swoop

+1 Planar
+1 Vitality
Heroic Recovery x2
Achilles Heel (Kryptonite)

Here's a sick little minion to think about (using the old system, because you haven't written the new one yet :P):

Errant Faithful

Minion
Cost:  25

Base:  d4
Action:  2
Size:  1
Life:  0
Move:  5
Spirit:  Good

12 Armor (d12) Self Skill:  Equipment
(12)

8 Weapon (d12) Melee Skill:  Equipment
(8)

Bodyguard
(5)

Desperation
(5)

Heroic Recovery x18
(90)

Vulnerability:  Psychic

Achilles Heel:  Psychic Blast

(50)

Best,
       Bill

Quote from: Bill Masek on June 11, 2006, 01:12:58 PM
Errant Faithful

Minion
Cost:  25

Base:  d4
Action:  2
Size:  1
Life:  0
Move:  5
Spirit:  Good

12 Armor (d12) Self Skill:  Equipment
(12)

8 Weapon (d12) Melee Skill:  Equipment
(8)

Bodyguard
(5)

Desperation
(5)

Heroic Recovery x18
(90)

Vulnerability:  Psychic

Achilles Heel:  Psychic Blast

(50)

Best,
       Bill

ya, I was going to say the Heroic Deed, Heroic Effort and Heroic Recovery are ripe for abuse and to limit them to x2 maximum per character.

Matt,

That makes sense.

If I read it right, then Heroic Recovery prevents all damage and effects from a single attack.  And it costs the same amount as a single point of health.  As you have it now, one must wonder why anyone would bother buying health since they should max out Heroic Recoveries instead.  If this ability functions the way I think it does, consider increasing the cost from 5 per to 10 per.  True, this would deny it from minions, but when is the last time a red shirt or other minion made a heroic recovery?

Heroic Effort is already limited to 1 in the rules, which I think should stay the same.

Heroic Deed strikes me as less broken, but limiting it to two makes sense.

Best,
        Bill

Matt,

Since you are posting She Who Is Heaven and Bliss on your website, I thought that you might want her stats based on the current incarnation of the rules.


She Who is Heaven and Bliss

Champion
Cost:  750 Points

Base:  d4
Action:  4
Life:  14 (70)
Size:  2
Move:  1 (24 w/ DT) (1)
Spirit:  Good

Eternal
(75)

24 Allure (2d10+d4+4) Target Dimensional:   Short Range, Enslave, Mass x16, Point Blank, Cosmic, Enhanced+4
((32 + 10 + 80 + 10 + 80 + 40)/2 = 126)

16 Cosmic Energy (d10+d6+4) Target, Dimensional:  Short Range, Enhanced +4, Point Blank, Mass x4
((32+40+10+20)/2= 51)

24 Dimensional Travel (2d10+1d4+4) Self, Dimensional: Blink, Enhanced +4, Cosmic
(32+10+40+80=162)

Blind Fighting
(15)

(500)

The numbers in parenthes are costs.  Tell me when her art is done, I'd love to see it.  :)

Best,
        Bill

Its up on the site. But it is a random seed so you might have to refresh the home page once or twice.

I took some liberties with the design--hope you don't mind. I will update the stats as soon as I can.

Matt,

I checked out your website, very nice.  She has a very late 60s early 70s marvel comics cosmic entity feel.

I have been thinking about the facing rules recently.  They add a fair amount of complexity to the game, but they don't see what they add that much in the way of game play value.  The suprise element is probably best represented by individuals who use powers to hide and cloak themselves.  It gives a major disincentive to wade into your opponents forces which will make the games less epic.  Now, most of the time I believe that it will simply be overcome by giving all characters the Blind Fighting ability.  However, if all characters have that ability, then the invisibility rules, which I kind of like, won't do anything.

Best,
        Bill

I was thinking of making Suprise more of an active action then a passive one. So maybe Ambush--along with all the other powers and abilities--allows someone to gain suprise. And Manuevering would also. Then you don't have to worry which way anyone is facing.

Blind Fighting, needs to cost more--a lot more. Maybe in the 50 point range.

MrAtomek

Matt,

QuoteI was thinking of making Suprise more of an active action then a passive one. So maybe Ambush--along with all the other powers and abilities--allows someone to gain suprise. And Manuevering would also. Then you don't have to worry which way anyone is facing.

I like this idea.  It will focus on the good aspects while cutting out most of the complexity.

With Blind Fighting you could limit the scope.  Perhaps it does not work for powers like Manuevering or Ambush which activly give you suprise.  The only helps against opponents who attack while under the effects of stealth powers.  Then 25 points would be reasonable.  Perhaps you could have another ability for 25 points which negates Ambush.

This change will effectively make it so heightened senses and simmilar powers are effective against ambush and stealth powers, which I believe is what you want.

Best,
        Bill

Hey Bill,

Went through and cleaned up the powers. I rolled a lot of powers up into a single listing--all the differnet energy and elemental powers that just did damage are now under Energy & Elemental.

I am working on cleaning up the edit and then I will roll it out. Probably reduced the total powers by 1/3--but I didn't use the generic Damage and Defense. It was just too generic.

MrAtomek

Matt,

Tell me when you post them.  I'll give you my feed back then.

Best,
        Bill