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For my first post to these forums, I need to say that I wish I'd found this place months ago when I began working on my ideas. I originally began writing a novel, then decided that I needed to flesh out more information on the world. Then, that became the basis for a game setting.

Now that I've read through most of the articles and started reading the forums, I'm inspired to begin work on a game that will focus on the premise of that setting. This site has already helped me focus my ideas, steered my thinking in new directions, and forced me to break out of the box.

The work I've already done on the setting was without the guiding influence of this site and its members, but nobody outside my gaming group has seen it. I would appreciate some constructive feedback from neutral third parties.

Here's the overview for the setting (and subsequent game):

After the creation of the world by the elemental gods, they created mankind, and mortals were to be the caretakers of the world after the gods returned to their home in Bahruva. But the godchildren became jealous of each other's accomplishments and so a contest was issued. Each of the four major elemental gods (fire, earth, air and water) would take a portion of the world's people and propel them towards perfection, thus creating four major societies.

The godchildren's parents eventually had enough of this childish game and instructed the godchildren to return home through the Gates of Bahruva, which is a one way trip. But Aziram, God of Fire, was not content, and shared a seed of his divinity with a mortal woman, so her children would forever pass on the god's power through the ages. It was Aziram's plan that these gifted mortals would find a way to bring Aziram back to Sagatia to rule unopposed.

The other gods discovered his plan and did likewise, creating the immortal lineages. These immortals would eventually lead the societies to war and would result in a Cataclysm.

The game would begin during the years after the Cataclysm, when the world is facing eternal winter and a growing mass of ice from the north that threatens to swallow the continents.

I thought it would be interesting if the characters would be immortals struggling with persecution, age-old prejudices, and of course learning how to handle their own semi-divine powers. Would the characters use their powers to heal the world, or do as their forefathers did and bring the world closer to destruction?

Here are the links to the PDFs. I've broken the master document into three parts to reduce file size (cover, core1, and core2) and removed the credits page, introduction and back cover.

http://www.timelessadventures.com/files/Sagatia-Gazetteer-core1.pdf  (http://www.timelessadventures.com/files/Sagatia-Gazetteer-core1.pdf)   - 6.4MB
http://www.timelessadventures.com/files/Sagatia-Gazetteer-core2.pdf - 4.7MB
http://www.timelessadventures.com/files/Sagatia-Gazetteer-cover.pdf - 1.7MB

Thanks for your time,
Carl

What game system will you use to run this?

In what way do you expect the players to use this material?

Oh yeah, welcome to the Forge. =)

I guess I should be more specific with my request for feedback.

My first thought was to create something useable by any system. Its all Setting and Color, so I thought that any system could pick it up and use it. But then I thought that the premise and theme of the game might be lost using certain systems, so that's why I thought I'd begin developing a system that would highlight Sagatia's premise and theme.

What I'd like to know are the following things:

1. Have I created something people other than myself find interesting for a) their own system or b) a system designed with this world in mind. If not, then I'll be content to develop it for my group's enjoyment.

2. Is the material presented in the gazetteer vague, confusing, not organized properly, or complete crap (although that's not entirely helpful in improving the material). I have my own opinions on what I'll do to improve the material in round two, but before I give my thoughts, I'd like to hear others comments so I'm not influencing theirs.

3. Have I left holes in the material? There are a few small items I'd like to add to the existing sections, but if it feels like something is missing, then I need to address that.

4. Have I gone overboard with existing sections? If a section feels bloated or unnecessary, then I should address that.

Sorry for not listing these in my first post.

Thanks again, and I'm glad to be aboard.

To address Adam's questions, I ran it using d20 system, then ran it with Iron Heroes rules, then paused to continue work.

The gazetter was intended for use by players and/or GMs. Players could use it to flesh-out backgrounds and such, but I think GMs would be a more likely audience for use in creating sessions, scenarios or adventures.

Hi Carl and welcome to the forge !!! I haven't read all the stuff you put here, but I took a good look. Since I'm designing a pure content product (no mechanic, only setting/plot), I'll try to comment and help you.

But first, some questions :
What are your publishing goals ?
What you have shown us, is it an excerpt or all the work you have done so far ?

Quote1. Have I created something people other than myself find interesting for a) their own system or b) a system designed with this world in mind. If not, then I'll be content to develop it for my group's enjoyment.

Setting, at least ones like yours, are not, by definition linked to system (althougth this is wrong for things like My life with master, dogs and sorcerer, since their setting and mechanic are closely linked). As you have tried it yourself, a setting can be used with more than one mechanic. So, your question seems ackward to me. But, that leads me to your system. Even if you're designing your own system, it doesn't mean that what you have done can only be used with this system. I would suggest leaving the door open to others. You can sell a version with your system and another one using d20. That's possible.
As for the setting in itself. I'd like to say that the art is very, very good. And the map looks good too. As for its usefulness, I'll come to that...

Quote2. Is the material presented in the gazetteer vague, confusing, not organized properly, or complete crap (although that's not entirely helpful in improving the material). I have my own opinions on what I'll do to improve the material in round two, but before I give my thoughts, I'd like to hear others comments so I'm not influencing theirs.

Your material is presented in a very classic way. That seems like a problem to me. But, hey, maybe not for you !?! Here's why :
- I think that this form of presentation is, by itself, not very useful for the rpg. It is old, it is common, we have seen that before.
- If you choose that presentation, then you'll come in competition with hundred of others. Your only difference will be the setting in itself.

QuoteThe gazetter was intended for use by players and/or GMs. Players could use it to flesh-out backgrounds and such, but I think GMs would be a more likely audience for use in creating sessions, scenarios or adventures.

Here's the important part !!! You want to provide something that can be used. But how exactly ? That's why I would encourage you to think of a way to present your material that will be useful. That means not in a gazetter way. If you can do that, then your product will become something unique, something different, and not only by the setting in itself. You have to think of what you, as a DM, need from this kind of material. The objective should be that people look at it and say "Ha, that's a nice setting, but also a useful one." You want your audience to create scenarios from your work. But how do they acheive that ? How does your material help them doing so ? Personnaly, I believe in material that people can build upon.
The way settings are presented didn't really evolved over the years and I strongly believe there is plenty of room to designing new way to do this.

I really don't want to spam your thread, but to give you an idea of what I'm talking, you might want to take a look at this : AvalancheTeaser_S1F4 (http://www.cycles-rpg.com/teaser/AvalancheTeaser_S1F4.pdf).
Note that this is not the final version, but it should give you an overview of a material designed in a different, useful way. Or at least I think.
If you wish to think over of a specific design for your setting, I'd be more than happy to help...

Sebastian,

Thanks for the insight. I agree with your observation on the material's presentation. While it may be organized, I can step back and look at it through this analogy:

I have given a GM some nails, some wood, and a hammer, and said that with these he can build a house. But, I have not supplied the GM with a blueprint, nor any instruction on the use of the materials or tools.

I think a useful product is one that solves a problem or makes our lives easier, and the same can be said about RPG products. I think what I'm developing has potential, but it doesn't solve

I read through your teaser and think you have a interesting twist to the way you have structured things.

Again, I am inspired by the forward thinking in these forums. I now need to think about how I can take my ideas and make them user-friendly.

Thanks again.

test oops mistake please remove

Hello Carl,

After checking your PDFs ; your artwork is great, but your page setting could use a better engine to make it more professional looking. Especially, you could use your margins for better effect, using for example freeware "web page background" galleries.

I'm suggesting Scribus software, which is free and quasi-professional. You can find aid and guides online ; it's a poor man's version of QuarkXpress. The only bugs I had were the lack of performance from my computer (I went back to MS Publisher), but perhaps yours is better than mine :

http://www.scribus.org.uk/

Good luck!

Erick N. Bouchard
Quebec, Canada

Erick,

I use Quark everyday at work and I have both that and Publisher at home, but with the PDFs I spent more time on content than layout. The visuals will come after I get the meat of the project finished.

What I've decided after thinking over the weekend is that the material I have has some potential, but also some problems. I also realized that there are some things that would prevent the setting from really working with other systems. I'll explain futher...

1. Currently, the setting material has no obvious antagonist, whether that's an individual or group. I originally started the material with the concept that 'evil' all depends on your point of view. I despise alignments in systems and never use them. One man's rebel is another man's freedom fighter. I like that, but I think its more difficult to put into play. I might make some individual and organizations 'universally despicable'. If a player were to ally with that group, the player should become an NPC or something.

2. As I was thinking about the magi and the immortals in the setting, I thought about how their spells and abilities might affect the world around them. I decided that spells and immortal powers all have byproducts. Cars and power plants harm the environment. Spells can too.  Some spells are clean, and some are dirty, and will affect the environment and everything in it differently depending on which element the spell or ability is based upon.

Its very likely that fire spells are very dirty, water spells are very clean, and earth and air spells might be either or in between. I might classify the byproduct of spells and abilities as Corruption.  Not only might casting such a spell or using an ability cause a Corruption effect to the area, but it would add to the character's Corruption score. Once the Corruption score reaches are particular level, a Corruption effect or event is automatic. Character's should however be given the opportunity to burn off their Corruption with lesser effects, or use clean spells to remove that Corruption.

I also like the idea of Conflicted abilities, so I thought that Corruption might actually help improve the effectiveness of dirty spells, but would have a negative effect in other areas. Despite this, Corruption will reset itself to zero after it reaches a certain level and ends with a Corruptive Event.

After I came up with this, I realized I wasn't about to explain how a player might tweak his system to include this. Perhaps I should move this into another forum.

Hi Carl,

I see; sorry, I didn't mean to be disrespectful, its' only that human nature being what it is, an easy readable format makes reading easier. I'm the first guilty ; my first professional game's layout was monstrous. I'm still surprised that it sell... :-)

My opinion is similar to other people on this community : Find your game's niche, and make a specific product to fill it. What makes it different than other fantasy RPGs? Moreover, what *obviously* makes this game a totally different *experience* from other games in a crowded fantasy market? I think you should use the methodology of government program evaluation to conceptualize your game :

----> STATE YOUR GOALS IN A FEW CLEAR SENTENCES
----> SET TARGETS
----> DETAIL THE MEANS TO ATTAIN THE GOALS
----> MEASURE THE RESULTS OBTAINED AGAINST THE GOALS

As for your other questions, here's my humble advice. I've been published about 4 or 5 times for RPGs, but I've been through a lot of reviewers so you might want to hear from my experience, if only for a different opinion. I also worked as a freelancer for a few supplements for Steamlogic's Mechanical Dream RPG, a game which many people consider both a wondrous work in its originality and a catastrophy in its realization.

1. Currently, the setting material has no obvious antagonist, whether that's an individual or group...

In a crowded market, I believe you have to find a way for people to find IMMEDIATE interest in your game with its central theme, not simply the originality of its universe. For example, a strong weakness of the (very original setting-gifted) TEKUMEL Rpg, as reported on forums, was its very anthropological outlook and not "playable" outlook. I think a game should be a product available to use immediately; you read it down and
I believe this explains the popularity of RPGs like Star Wars, Werewolf and Vampire ; without a clear antagonist, you end up with players wondering what to do. Most roleplayers are challenge-oriented people, so I suggest you pick an enemy, wheter a group or a phenonemon (i.e. the world is flooding and everyone's fighting for available space). The Savage Worlds game are very strong at this : strong focus, strong antagonists and "action oriented" adventures, by which I mean "you have something to do". Same for Dogs in the Vineyard. I'm a strong believer in "mission oriented RPGS", where players don't just do avatarism but actually strive towards a clear goal.
You can keep your relativist perspective by simply allowing to play various sides of a conflict, like Heavy Gear and Vampire the Mascarade does. D20 Modern does so with its Allegiance system, a replacement for Alignment.

2. As I was thinking about the magi and the immortals in the setting...

I suggest you look at Dark Sun for a very interesting take on this issue. Arcana Unearthed and the Conan OGL games also have Corruption rules you might want to check, in Open Content moreover.
As for a variation of Corruption, try Star Wars d6 for a Dark Side of the Force bonus or Mage for paradox. I believe it's important that your character suffers personnaly, not just the environment.
In any case, I suggest you think what exactly you want to do with this game, e.g. the market niche you're looking for and the originality you are trying to bring from your very concept. E.g. "A fantasy rpg where one's magical power comes at the expense of others". This should be a major premise of your setting; I think you shoulnd't include magic just because all other games do, but for a specific effect. Keeping with your relativist morals and your analogy nature vs technology, your game could thus center around a conflict between defenders of magic-less world (protect nature and the traditional ways of life against an elite group of egoists destroying the world, aka sorcerers, at the expense of prosperity) versus enlightened defenders of progress against luddites (bring prosperity to the masses through enlightened magic, at the price of environment). There you go, with a Conflicted Gauge (i.e. Sorcery, or Synthesis, or whatever ; its level could be a bonus to magical effects but a similar penalty to social and "nature-orienetd" rolls) and a societal dilemma forcing your PCs to take sides. ;-)

As for your content's form, my suggestion would be to accentuate, for each paragraph, the added value for players and GMs by providing game hooks. That's the option I took in the game I'm currently page-setting, to maximize "word utility" per page, after many readers' comments.

Also, I'd suggest using tables for your content, to facilitate reading. For many people, reading long narrative texts can  make gaming reference more hard, while using a table for information makes reference quick and easy, as well as visual advantages you probably know of, since you're familiar with Quark and all. Many people will find text more easy over long pages when segmented into sections or tables. I'm a reader who's eye catches interest for these a lot.

E.g. Taking example on your text "A typical Deccan's view", it could thus become :

      Deccan      Culture 1   Culture 2   ...
Deccan      ----------      Opinion A   Opinion B
Culture 1    Opinion C   Opinion D   Opinion E

My readers gave very positive feedback when I organized, in my gamebooks, comparative information in tables or sidebars rather than simply as a main text.

Just my 2 cents. Do as you will with it, and good luck!

Regards,

Erick

Carl-

It seems to me like you've already been offered a lot of quality advice regarding turning your material into an appealing product.  As for the content itself, let me answer your questions with my own first impressions (I have not yet read everything, as my ancient computer dislikes your PDF images):

Quote from: cbussler on June 09, 2006, 01:24:54 PM
1. Have I created something people other than myself find interesting for
a) their own system

Interesting?  Most definitely.  I am a big fan of settings wherein the world history has a lot to do with what's going on in any given campaign.  An epic, dramatic context is one of the things that gets me excited about beginning an adventure in a new setting.

Many of the systems I have created and run could work with this game.  However:

Quote from: cbussler on June 09, 2006, 01:24:54 PM
or b) a system designed with this world in mind.

A few system ideas that really drive home the unique aspects of your setting would help.  I don't see any need for you to concoct your own combat system, but it might be nice to have mechanics which measure the influences of the elements in various situations, and the influences of lineage in a given character. 

If this sounds interesting to you, let me know and I'll try to come up with some specific ideas.

Quote from: cbussler on June 09, 2006, 01:24:54 PM
2. Is the material presented in the gazetteer vague, confusing, not organized properly, or complete crap

Good table of contents (that may sounds like lame praise, but it's not intended to be).  Your organization choices make for a good read.  I can't think of any reasons to change it other than:
a) if the content itself is expanded/diminished in some particular directions
b) making it immediately useful to players (discussed in previous posts)

Quote from: cbussler on June 09, 2006, 01:24:54 PM
3. Have I left holes in the material? There are a few small items I'd like to add to the existing sections, but if it feels like something is missing, then I need to address that.

You have made one choice that I question: the length of intervals in your history are very long, with lots of dead space.  I made the same choice in a game I created, in order to add a feeling of grandeur to certain spans of history, and to highlight certain events and their world-changing significance.  I wound up reversing that choice, as I realized that:
1) very little appeared to have happened in my world in the last few hundred years
2) the material that I'd relegated to Ancient Times was the material that interested me the most and that I wanted to use most often

I've found recently that it can be more fun to talk about important events that happened 80 years ago than important events that happened 8000 years ago.  The connection of such events to the present day tends to make more sense and to be more involved and apprehensible.

I'd leave about one or two lifespans between each of these events:
1) beginning of Dark Age
2) end of Dark Age, beginning of Dei Dormono time
3) reintroduction of magic
4) suggested campaign starting point

A LOT can happen in 100 years...

I am responding largely to your timeline; if I missed something later on that contradicts this apparent emphasis on stuff that happened 3000-4000 years ago, my apologies. 

Also, if the default perspective here (the p.o.v. that'll be "normal" to players) is that of an immortal or extremely long-lived being, that certainly is a factor (though I still wouldn't ignore the pace of real-world human culture).

Quote from: cbussler on June 09, 2006, 01:24:54 PM
4. Have I gone overboard with existing sections? If a section feels bloated or unnecessary, then I should address that.

There is a lot of stuff in the "Societies" section that may have little relevance to play in any given game, depending on party composition.  However, I found it fun to read, and felt it enhanced my feel for the setting.  Perhaps putting the cultures' opinions of each other in sidebars (or minimizing them in some other way) would make the text easier to scan...

Again, many thanks to all the insights and suggestions. Erick, no offense taken regarding the layout. Your observation is correct. Once I get the core of the product fixed, I'll revisit the visual appeal of the product.

Also, great thoughts on the conflicts between power groups in the setting which emphasize the premise. It really isn't about good or evil, but about choices. A character can choose to abuse the world through magic or divine powers for personal gain and watch the world suffer (but with personal detriment as well), or defend nature against the abberations of magic and the immortal lineages, or thirdly choose to heal the world through the use of magic and divine ability (but probably feel the ire of both the other groups). A character could even choose not to choose, but that puts them in the middle of everything and perhaps without allies, or perhaps selling their services to the highest bidder.

I guess I can have my cake and eat it too. Through these opposed groups, the characters can have specific goals and conflicts, but it's still up to the player to decide which path is taken.

I had originally thought that the Church of Ningizia would be primarily (and initially founded as) a benevolent group, with just a few secret magi trying to use the church for their own personal goals. Now I'm thinking that the Church of Ningizia would be a great nemesis (or patron) if the entire church is in support of the corrupting magi who are now the power-wielding leaders of that organization. The characters are either for or against the church. There's no middle ground with them. It smacks of the Galactic Republic in Star Wars becoming the Empire, but there's only so many plots in the world, so I'm ok with that.

Also in relation to the church would be its opponents, the anti-magic group, and a third group which is more reconstructionist in that magic and the immortals aren't really bad, magic is just being improperly used, and the immortals are misunderstood.

I'll also look at the other settings you mentioned. I am familiar with Dark Sun (read the Troy Denning novels) and I actually got the immortal lineage idea from the bloodline rules in Arcana Unearthed. I was initially afraid to look through other campaign settings and systems for fear I'd accidentally use something, but the forums have opened my eyes to the benefits of analyzing other systems and materials.

David - good points made all around. I guess I just ran out of steam with the timeline. Looking back at the material, there's much of it that isn't directly pertinent to the characters. While the ancient history is interesting, more recent history would have more of an impact on characters. A good point that I'm sure to address with my revision.

Lastly, I have discovered the Power 19, so I'm off to fill-out that blueprint for the game.

Thanks again.

Hi Carl,

I'm glad my suggestions could be helpful.  If I may offer a suggestion : try for each and every one of your "power groups" to have both favorable and unfavorable consequences on the world at large, because this creates grey moral areas, which are fun to roleplay.

Let me explain ; my job is to councel government authorities on public policy. For every problematic (unemployment, pollution, etc.) you have opposing groups claiming their solution is the best , and they are right - from their specific perspective. However, almost any solution has its negative drawbacks - which is the reason why my job exists, to weight out the net balance between positive and negative impacts, and live with the chosen solution.

The simplest example, relevant to your game, would be economic development vs environment preservation.

GROUP A) More economic development means more jobs and wealth creation, thus people in better health, more happy, less sick, less urban violence, etc. However, the pollution created worsens the environement, long term health, etc.

GROUP B) More environment preservation means better air, more long-term resources and health, better global living conditions,  etc. However, the economic downside is job loss, poverty, short term health, urban violence, etc.

So which is more virtuous, A or B?

Well, it depends. You need to decide on specific issues to be sure, and both sides have radicals, etc. So when creating power groups for your game, say "Defenders of Environment" vs "Defenders of progress", I suggest you present things from their own perspective, leaving judgment for your players to make. Thus, using Conflicted Gauges with a neutral term, and ambiguity (like in the SORCERER RPG), is a good way to give your interesting fantasy setting a specific colour.

You'd be surprised at how people of all stripes believe themselves to be right and virtous. Even paedophiles justify their actions on pseudo-moral grounds (!!!). But that doesn,t mean they're right ; living is about making a choice. I think your game has thus great potential to explore Existentialism in "down to Earth" terms, much like Planescape was an exploration in applied Constructivism...

:D

Good luck!

Erick

Well, Carl, seems like that thread is helpful... Good for you !!! I'll just add some of my advices.

QuoteI have given a GM some nails, some wood, and a hammer, and said that with these he can build a house. But, I have not supplied the GM with a blueprint, nor any instruction on the use of the materials or tools.

In my opinion, you should provide less wood and more hammer, so to say. Let the DM be able to add his own ideas, but providing him with a way to use yours. Wood is always fun to bring !!! If you provide too much of it, then it becomes very hard to use. Just provide what is useful, nothing more, nothing less...

About history
Yes, your history covers a lot of ground. You should add more, but be careful not to have a 20 pages history !!! So, just an idea : why not begin the description of each culture, each location, with their own personal history. You keep the overall history of the world, but you provide an overview of an element with his own history. And for sure, the history of each element won't be as long as the other. That may help, not only to point out what is important for that element, but also the reader with the restitution of the information.
One last thing : I believe the main problem with typical setting is the 'out of time' feeling. I think you want your setting to be part of a strong history. The present is now, and it derives from the past. That way, you'll raise stakes, immediate stakes, upon which the DM will be able to build an adventure. But that leaves open the question of plot... What do you intend to do with it ? As you raise stakes, plots also will arise...

About Point of View
As your overall history is something like a 'god's eye' point of view, you should emphasize the description of culture from their point of view. And what about adding some description of a certain culture from an other point of view ? And I'm talking about small descriptions, that would add a lot to the context. That should be fun to read !!!
I would also recommand, like others said, to avoid black versus white protagonists. Everything should be a point of view... And also, avoid to think that 'bad' characters are NPCs in your world. Leave the door opens to players who would want to play that kind of stuff.

Quote
2. As I was thinking about the magi and the immortals in the setting, I thought about how their spells and abilities might affect the world around them. I decided that spells and immortal powers all have byproducts. Cars and power plants harm the environment. Spells can too.  Some spells are clean, and some are dirty, and will affect the environment and everything in it differently depending on which element the spell or ability is based upon.

Great idea and a great starting point !!! Maybe think about the system later for that matter. But it's up to you...

Starting small
You seem to want to provide history and description of a whole world. Maybe you should begin smaller, while keeping in mind 'the big picture'. A single culture and location maybe, around which you work a lot, opening threads, links, to the other parts. That may be a good starting point to go with your new ideas. And you'll be surpised on how building a puzzle like that, all the pieces fall together... Oh, I thougth of that for this culture. I can use it with that other one !! I believe you've got the overall idea right into your hands. Might it be time to 'zoom in' on some parts, presenting a more specific, detailled history ?

Erick - Your example of power group positioning is great. In an effort to get my horse in front of the cart, I've started working on the Power 19, and have addressed some of that, mostly in question #2 What do your characters do, and #5 How character creation supports the premise.

You can find the beginnings of my Power 19 at http://www.timelessadventures.com/files/power19.doc

In narrowing down what the game is actually about, I stumble on the working title of "To Rise Again." The world of Sagatia was once a glorious thing, and the immortals were without equal. Will the players rise again to positions of power, or will their efforts help Sagatia rise again to its former beauty?

I have encounted a problem. Big question #3 What do the players (GM) do?

I analyzed the GNS model in regards to the game's premise and ruled out Simulationist. What follows are my thoughts on Gamist and Narrativist play in Sagatia, but I need to discuss the term Ideology (which is detailed in my Power 19 document). All the characters have a belief in regards to the magi, the immortals and in whose hands the fate of the world rests. Read on...

Gamist Premise:

Can my character gain more status and influence than the other player-characters in the ongoing rivalries between Ideological groups?

Can our immortal/magi/mortal characters survive the determined efforts of opposing Ideological groups?

Narrativist Premise:

If the characters in the game were strictly magi or immortals, then the premise with a strong character emphasis, might be, "Is it right to use our arcane and divine powers to defend our Ideology, even though it has obvious negative effects on the world and the people in it? When might the justification break down?"

An issue I'm having is that I don't however want to limit characters to just immortals and magi. I think playing a mortal who doesn't have (or doesn't want) the powers of a magi is interesting too, especially if there's an immortal or magi in the group. Maybe this won't be an issue.

I think if I figure this stuff out, I can decide what a player (or GM) does in the game.

Or, am I once again showing my newbness? Am I still looking at the spoon and wondering how to bend it?

Sebastian - Good points. Once I have the foundation of this thing squared-up, I'll take another look at the setting through other points of view. Thanks again.

Hey, glad to see you're taking this in a game design direction.

I wouldn't sweat the GNS stuff right now. Try to answer "What do the players do?" without a ton of game theory clouding it up. Once you know what you want your game to do, that stuff will come.

When you say, "Can my character gain more status and influence than the other player-characters in the ongoing rivalries between Ideological groups?" do you want players to gain status and influence for their characters without regard for the method? Or is how they do it really the cool thing for you? You mention the Ideological groups. I assume this means they have different operating methods. Some are nice; some aren't. Maybe the question to ask is, "What are you willing to do to gain your character more status and influence?"

Similarly with "Can our immortal/magi/mortal characters survive the determined efforts of opposing Ideological groups?" What about, "What are you willing to do to survive?" More specifically, questions like these make interesting premises:

• Will you kill to survive?
• Will you betray your friends to survive?
• Will you betray your group to survive?
• Will you betray your own ideals to survive?

You don't have to pick one as a designer. Basically, if those kinds of questions interest you, make your game raise questions like that in play, and let the players decide what they care about. As a designer, ask yourself how you can systematically create situations that shove these issues in the faces of the players. How can you write a game that more or less guarantees that a player will have to make a choice like, "betray my ideals or die"?  Maybe your idea of "survive" isn't avoiding death; maybe it's something less permanent, but the idea remains the same. Push situation.

Or maybe you want to support player achievement without regard to the motives. Gaining social power without really focusing on why they do what they do. In that case, you want your game to give players tools to prove their personal tactical and strategic abilities. Provide game mechanics that are fun to manipulate and tweak and rely on a certain amount of player skill to master. Give players ways to "win" the game or demonstrate their mastery of the game to the other participants.

Quote from: Carl Bussler on June 14, 2006, 03:57:52 PM
Can my character gain more status and influence than the other player-characters in the ongoing rivalries between Ideological groups?

Can our immortal/magi/mortal characters survive the determined efforts of opposing Ideological groups?

Is it right to use our arcane and divine powers to defend our Ideology, even though it has obvious negative effects on the world and the people in it? When might the justification break down?

I am trying to envision play in a game with these as major concerns, and it leads me to ask:

Do you have any preferences for the form of play?  Should it consist solely of playing through situations as a physically present participant, or should it (in the case of characters with great influence) consist partly of characters listening to GM descriptions about what happens over successive months as a result of their latest edict/war/etc.?

I once ran a game where each player had one Boss and one Minion.  The Minions did things like run, fight, investigate, travel, etc.  The Bosses schemed to conquer the Earth.  Both types of play were fun and augmented each other well.  That structure certainly seems like an option for your game, as it includes humans and immortals with varying degrees of power...

Adam and David - Form of play, at the moment, is the hard thing for me to visualize. My D&D roots run deep and I've been trying to open my eyes to new things. My gaming groups over the years haven't been open to too many other games besides the White Wolf products, Battlelords, Shadowrun and various D20 spawns.

I recently ordered Amber, The Burning Wheel, Warhammer Fantasy, Conan D20, and Ars Magica for me to analyze and get some new perspectives. With or without a gaming group, I'm going to expand my horizons.

Back to form of play. I like the idea of a main character and a minion. I've read that Ars Magica does something like this, which I'll see once the book shows up. 

Here's an idea which may or may not work in reality: Each player has two characters - a minion and a boss. My boss character is in charge of your minion character, and your boss character is in charge of another player's minion character, and that guy's boss is in charge of my minion. Said another way: The character Ansigar works for the boss Justinian. I will play the character of Ansigar, and my buddy in the gaming group plays the character of Justinian. The minions need to work together to fulfill their boss's Desires, but at the same time defending their Ideology.

If characters succeed in fulfilling their boss's Desires and they are able to defend their Ideology, then their boss's influence goes up and the character's status goes up. If they neglect a Desire or an Ideology, then the boss's influence or the character's status goes down (or doesn't change). Perhaps status and influence aren't the words I'm looking for, but that's a good starting point.

It's an interesting scenario, as the character's have a common public goal, but also secret goals. Player's may (should) have to choose between defending their Ideology and fulfilling their boss's Desires.

The problem I see with this is why would these various bosses (and potentially opposed bosses) send their minions to work together? Perhaps the bosses are all part of the same organization, but with personal goals, and the shared mission of the characters is an organizational goal. But, if that were the case, wouldn't all the characters have the same Ideology?

For those who haven't read my Power 19, here is a rough draft of some Ideologies that pertain to the world of Sagatia:

1) Magi and the immortals are superior to all others and their powers can be used for personal gain, despite whatever cost to others, themselves and the world. The world is an evolving, constantly changing thing. No matter what changes the magi or immortals cause, mortals will need to adapt. Motto: Survival of the fittest.

2) Magic and the immortals are aberrations and must be eliminated in order to preserve the natural order of the world.

3) Magic and the immortals are misused and misunderstood, and with patience and knowledge they can heal the world and restore its greatness.

4) A character could also choose Undecided (I don't know what to believe).

5) A character may be Unconcerned (I don't care) at the beginning of play.

6) The character believes that the immortals' supremacy entitles them to rule, to be worshiped and all opposition must be removed, including magi.

7) The character believes that immortals are the saving force of the world, but magic is an aberration and must be removed.

8) The character believes that magi are the new caretakers of the world. Immortals had their chance and failed.

Examples of Desires are Power, Independence, Curiosity, Acceptance, Order, Honor, Idealism, Social Contact, Family, Status, Vengeance, Romance, Physical Perfection, Mental Perfection, Spiritual Perfection, and Tranquility. Specific Desires would be: Gain the trust of the other characters (Acceptance), capture the local murderer and bring him to trial (Idealism), or earn the title of Gyula (Status). General Desires are ongoing and never completely fulfilled.

Alright, that's a long post. Sorry if I've bored anyone.

Thanks again for the help. I'd like to reciprocate by posting to other topics, but I still feel like a newb.

Carl-

Just so you know, Erick ("baron samedi") posted a reply intended for your thread in one of my threads ([Lendrhald] Rewards system...).

I'm sorry guys, I didn't realize I posted on the wrong forum. :-(

Carl, reading those games might give you some new ideas. Playing them will be better. That's a big pile of games though, so I can't imagine you'll get through them all anytime soon. If you're looking for perspectives different than D&D's, I'd prioritize Amber and Burning Wheel. You might also take a look at The Shadow of Yesterday (http://www.anvilwerks.com/?The-Shadow-Of-Yesterday), available in its entirety for free online.

Your boss/minion idea is very cool. Definitely try to develop that. Do you intend to have the player running both his boss and his minion in the same games? sessions? scenes?  Ars Magica does indeed have players create troupes of characters at a variety of levels (your mage, your companion, and perhaps some mooks) but I can't remember if you play them in the same sessions and scenes or rotate the spotlight.

The game Polaris has some ideas that might be useful to you. You can probably learn what you need to know from Actual Play threads here. Search the archives for those  reports. Polaris is a four-player game and it rotates the spotlight among the players, but assigns GM powers to the other three players. Each controls one aspect of the conflict your character is in, to put it simply and not entirely accurately.

For your secret goals, they are certainly secret among characters, but are they secret among players?  They don't have to be!

I read over your Ideologies. I think, in general, they're useful tags. If you're going to have a player choose one for his character, it'd be best to assign them names or handles so players can easily discuss them, and so there's something you can write in a 2-inch box on the character sheet. I'm concerned about Undecided and Unconcerned. Convince me that letting players not choose an Ideology makes your game better. If your game is about the struggle between Ideologies, make your players choose one and stick with it.

And by all means, post to other topics! We were all newbs once. You become not-a-newb by sticking around, taking part in conversations, and learning the hard way. We'll help you out -- you have a great attitude. Jump in and make mistakes. No one will fault you for inexperience.

Quote from: baron samedi on June 15, 2006, 06:39:18 AM
I'm sorry guys, I didn't realize I posted on the wrong forum. :-(

I've asked the moderators to delete Erick's post from my thread.  So, here's what he said:

Quote from: baron samedi
Hi Carl,

Your Power 19 file is very interesting ! Great propositions from other members too!

My take for question #3:

I suggest that you bring about your Ideologies under a few "families", so that you have you players minimally work together. The player's goals would be to see their faction prosper by completing important political/social objectives.

The best example I could state would be Mage RPG, where you have 3 big factions (Traditions, Technocracy, Nephandi) each comprising a variety of positions.  Thus you could have Pro-Magic, Anti-Magic and "Resurrectionist" factions, with Ideologies within each (eg. Curative Pro-Magic, Opportunist Pro-Magic, etc.). You could even have Faction Points, representing one PC's standing and influence within his faction, and allow players to total their PC's FPs when acting together - forcing group co-operation. These wouldn't be "experience points", but a measure of your world's global change towards the goal they work for. Attaining thresholds (e.g. every 10 Pro-Magic points) could give a similar bonus to motivate and reflect the world's change. I think the online game "[Something] of Camelot" has a similar mechanism, spreading players over 3 warring factions with incentives for intra-faction co-operation.

Suppose for example that your PC group is made up of 5 Pro-Magic PCs, each with his own Ideology. By playing the first part of your campaign, they complete 5 major plot points - gathering 5 Pro-Magic Faction Points together and various Ideology points individually. At mid-time,

"Winning the game" could simply imply winning 100 Faction Points and thus deciding your World's fate, representing the Faction's advance over others and ending up with 1) a Magic world ; 2) a Magicless world ; 3) the world as it was before the Cataclysm.

Moreover, secondary Ideology points could determine, within each Faction "sucess", which Ideology dominates, e.g. a Magic World tainted by Opportunist Magi or healed by Curative Magi, etc.

Non-magi could have the advantage of never suffering from the negative effects of using magic, and perhaps winning more easily Ideology points (if not Faction points, or vice-versa).

That way you give both your players and characters a setting-oriented goal. This could be Gamist as well as Narrativist, not unlike Paul Czege's My Life With Master for ex. The GM's role could be to oppose them (if you take a Narrativist system) or to challenge them (with a Gamist system). Since I'm not convinced about the existence of Simulationist systems (at least, significatively different from Gamist ones), I'll leave it without an example, with all due respect.

Just my 2 cents.

Erick

A little bit of word association here:  ideologies unconcerned and undecided...I would equate them with the word neutral.  Borrowing a bit/concern from D&D alignment, is there a way to make those idea system more dynamic?  Perhaps you could some committed to some balanced view of the world, recognizing everything has a place and it's up to them to make sure that all of the other extermists don't go too far.

Perhaps unconcerned are fatalists.  They realize their destiny is "written in the stars."  Their goals/concern is figuring out what that is or trying to live as well as they can for as long as they can.  They would believe that it is silly for all of the others to run around, trying to change things that cannot be changed. 

In any case, these examples may not fit your setting but I do believe you can open-ended philosophies that serve as the "other" category.

Sean

Sean - Adam had suggested that Undecided or Unconcerned wouldn't force conflict within the game. Characters would stay out of the way and not get involved. That sort of character should stay home and hide in the pantry. In real life, people are undecided and unconcered with things like 'Is there a god?', 'Will I reincarnate?' and a multitude of other things, but in this fantasy game, will being Undecided impede or promote gameplay?

I think Undecided impedes gameplay, but Unconcerned may not. If, as you suggest, the character is a Fatalist, he is resolute in that all the other choices are pointless. The character goes along doing what he can to get by until his last day comes. He'll ally with any and all so long as his last day is just one more day away.

Maybe Unconcerned isn't the best word for this Ideology. I haven't decided upon a naming system for the Ideologies, so I'm open to suggestions. Fatalist is a good contender.

Thanks again!

Carl,

For "Unconcerned", you could try to to focus them on the "Pragmatic" side (e.g. results matter, not means) so that they could be put to concrete use in gameplay. Possible variations could include Self-Indulgent (hedonist), Greed motivated, Politically motivated (with indifference toward magic), Fatalist, Religiously motivated, etc.

Erick

Quote from: baron samedi on June 16, 2006, 06:22:37 AM
Carl,

For "Unconcerned", you could try to to focus them on the "Pragmatic" side (e.g. results matter, not means) so that they could be put to concrete use in gameplay. Possible variations could include Self-Indulgent (hedonist), Greed motivated, Politically motivated (with indifference toward magic), Fatalist, Religiously motivated, etc.

Erick

Those are very good suggestions...They do change unconcerned into concerned...just not about the main storyline.  Perhaps some of the suggestions could be replaced by motivated by (blank) or motivation: (blank).  The only way I can picture undecided being a valid choice is if the character is searching for meaning...maybe motivation (self-discovery).

Sean