Ahey, :)
This thread (http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=20187.0) made me stop and think about Mighty Blow and then it made me stop a bit more and think about how Harm works.
So, here's me and some other character, say with a similar skill level, and we're trading blows in BDTP. Let's say the first round I get lucky and win by 4. That's marking off his 4 box in Harm. But next round, I'm not so lucky and I only win by 1. That's gonna mark off his 1 box in Harm. So basically, I'm only gonna outright win when he either gives or I win seven rounds.
Now, because we have the same skill level, he's winning about half the trades, so he's thinking the same thing. Meaning, the winner will be whichever one of us wants it the most (which is cool), or, if the stakes are important enough, whichever one finally wins his seventh hit, making it a best out of thirteen contest (which is not).
Also, Mighty Blow, come to think of it, is sort of a crummy deal. There's no point in bumping up the Harm, because all you did was paint the #5 box instead of the #2 box, and you're still gonna have to paint the #2 box eventually, before you can actually paint box #7 and finally win.
(All of the above assumes equality of circumstance. I.e., I'm talking about a situation where you can't be assured of winning by more than 1 with any degree of consistency.)
So, my questions are:
1) Am I reading the Harm rules correctly, or did I misunderstand something?
2) How and/or when would you use Mighty Blow effectively?
Cheers,
J.
I don't think you missed it, but I'll emphasize one important point: When you are trying to mark a Harm box, if it is already marked you go to the next one up.
So if a character has the 6 box marked, even if there are lots of lower boxes unmarked, you can always (if you're willing to spend enough Vigor) use Mighty Blow to knock him out.
Also, of course, there is *something* of a death spiral in TSoY: Harm at 4 and 5 basically inflict a permanent penalty die, and 6 adds pool drain. So the first one to get the other guy suffering a penalty die will have an advantage. It might be effective to use Mighty Blow on an early light wound to hit level 4 Harm quickly.
But yeah, BDtP between two evenly matched opponents without Mighty Blow is likely to go a long time. That's as it should be, right? Plenty of time for intention-changing and dramatic stuff to happen. After all, the player decided that this was a dramatic enough moment to Bring it in the first place.
I must be confused. In the revised edition, harm level 6 is broken, meaning BDTP is over, and the other party's intention happens. There is no harm level 7 (except in that it causes harm level 6).
I think Clinton brought up '7 on a roll' because of Character Transcendence. A Grand Master, in perfect circumstances, will roll a 7. That's when Transcendence occurs.
- George
Quote from: Twobirds on June 24, 2006, 08:32:18 AM
I must be confused. In the revised edition, harm level 6 is broken, meaning BDTP is over, and the other party's intention happens. There is no harm level 7 (except in that it causes harm level 6).
The Revised rules say:
QuoteLevel six harm means your character is broken. If broken, ...(etc).
Harm past broken results in the attacker's intention immediately happening.
(emphasis mine). I have taken that to mean that when you try to fill the seventh box -- well, there is no seventh box, so fight's over. You're done.
Since it's impossible to get SL7 in combat other than by Transcendence, the way this happens is by rolling something that would hit the harm 6 box when that box is already filled (your character's broken). Whether you've painted boxes 1-5 yet is irrelevant -- you can skip the lower-level boxes by having a big weapon, or by using Mighty Blow, or with Massive Damage, probably etc.
My own question: can you wait until after you've rolled to see how much Vigor you want to spend to improve your result with Mighty Blow? I'm currently assuming yes, since "just in time" seems to be a philosophy of TSoY, but the text could be read either way.
Hi, :)
Colin, the answer to your question is an indubitable yes. You have to already have won the roll before you can even think about applying Mighty Blow, meaning you need to have rolled already.
As to your reply, yes, you're right, you hit harm 7 by painting the 6 box twice... which is no easy feat to begin with. The only time I filled the 6 box outright was by winning by 2, then spending all my remaining Vigor. The opponent in question was a beast with no pools, so under those circumstances, that was good enough. Had it been a more worthy opponent, however, it would have meant I would have to have painted all the other boxes before I hit the 6 again... and all this with no pool to help me.
In other words, George (the first one, Threlicus), by hitting harm 6 early, I put my opponent into pool drain territory... but at the expense of the entirety of my pool. As for using it to hit harm 4, early, that's not even necessarily a good idea. Remember that lower level harms also impose penalty dice (albeit only for one action), but they are generic, whereas harm levels 4 and 5 only impose penalty dice for actions related to that particular pool.
So, in conclusion, it seems I had the rules right, but I still don't know what to do about Mighty Blow.
Clinton, you're the designer. Care to share your thoughts behind that particular secret?
Cheers,
J.
You're right Colin, thanks for clearing me up. I think I am so used to writing down all the levels/states in a game that I had been assuming 6 is the target level, and that Broken was meant conclusively (as in, you can't do anything else, because you're broken).
Quote from: JMendes on June 24, 2006, 01:06:26 PM
As to your reply, yes, you're right, you hit harm 7 by painting the 6 box twice... which is no easy feat to begin with. The only time I filled the 6 box outright was by winning by 2, then spending all my remaining Vigor. The opponent in question was a beast with no pools, so under those circumstances, that was good enough.
Well, then, maybe that's the kind of situation when Mighty Blow is worthwhile. When you have an edge in BDTP, and are willing to consider trading some pool for the likelihood of getting out of the fight expeditiously -- that is, trading some pool for avoiding some harm.
And also, the sword-vs-sword and social-vs-social fights are pretty common. Supposing you roll well, spending a point or two of pool to get an early bloodied result and permanent penalty die -- could be a good deal.
But I think you're right -- Mighty Blow will not usually be decisive.
Remember though that certain harm levels have specific effectcs., (Broken, Bloodied, etc.) So bumping Harm up to, say, level 4, might give you the edge you need to win.
Quote from: JMendes on June 24, 2006, 01:06:26 PM
So, in conclusion, it seems I had the rules right, but I still don't know what to do about Mighty Blow.
Clinton, you're the designer. Care to share your thoughts behind that particular secret?
Cheers,
J.
I think it's pretty useful. Getting a bloodied result instead of bruised is super-useful, and can be a deciding factor in your opponent's head about how far they want to take something in BDTP. If you've got the Vigor to spend, two blows can knock anyone out of BDTP. One blow can break them, which, you know, if you're still trying to win at that point, you've got major scope issues or cojones.
- Clinton
Quote from: Clinton R. Nixon on June 26, 2006, 05:57:32 AM
Getting a bloodied result instead of bruised is super-useful, and can be a deciding factor in your opponent's head about how far they want to take something in BDTP.
Which brings up something I'm still working out in mah head: if your opponent has declared, for example, that their goal is "I'm-a gonna kill you in the face!", then... you don't want to give, right? Like, ever? The end result of such a BDtP, regardless of whether you soak up every Harm on the chart or fold after the first round is: You are dead from being killed in the face.
Yes?
I realize that with less-deadly stakes, it better to give early than get the crap kicked out of you over "I want you to give me your sister's phone number," but as soon as someone goes to "Kill", you're pretty much in to the end, trying to spook THEM into giving.
Quote from: Doyce on June 26, 2006, 09:13:32 AM
Which brings up something I'm still working out in mah head: if your opponent has declared, for example, that their goal is "I'm-a gonna kill you in the face!", then... you don't want to give, right? Like, ever? The end result of such a BDtP, regardless of whether you soak up every Harm on the chart or fold after the first round is: You are dead from being killed in the face.
That's how I understand it. So as GM, you have to think twice before declaring stakes like that. Will the NPC really not be satisfied with anything less than a dead PC? Or does he really just want him defeated and humiliated and not causing any more trouble?
Most of the time in the real world, fights are just to sort out who's in charge.
The real tricky area for this is when you have PC v PC conflicts, especially when they are unfamiliar with the way things work in TSOY.
Quote from: Doyce on June 26, 2006, 09:13:32 AM
Which brings up something I'm still working out in mah head: if your opponent has declared, for example, that their goal is "I'm-a gonna kill you in the face!", then... you don't want to give, right? Like, ever? The end result of such a BDtP, regardless of whether you soak up every Harm on the chart or fold after the first round is: You are dead from being killed in the face.
Yes?
I realize that with less-deadly stakes, it better to give early than get the crap kicked out of you over "I want you to give me your sister's phone number," but as soon as someone goes to "Kill", you're pretty much in to the end, trying to spook THEM into giving.
This is correct. As a result, some people play with the house rule that, during the free-and-clear stage, you can negotiate giving up in exchange for reduced intentions.
Joe: "Why aren't you giving?"
Rob: "Because you declared the stakes to be killing me! I can't give!"
Joe: "Tell you what. If you give right now, I'll knock you unconscious instead of killing you."
Rob: "Hmm. Ok, you have a deal."
Hey, :)
Hmmm... interesting stuff, so far...
Quote from: Clinton R. Nixon on June 26, 2006, 05:57:32 AMGetting a bloodied result instead of bruised is super-useful
I'll have to think about this some more... I've actually found bloodied results to be worse than bruised results, in many circumstances... Many times, the other guy to simply change skills, for instance...
Cheers,
J.