I know I am jumping the gun a little on this (game isn't really out yeet, 2 supps in the pipe line before it) but I still would like to weigh in on my suggestions for the Flower of Battle
What We need
Complete and concise armor diagrams. I would like a diagram showing exactly what each piece of armor covers.
A helmets cover xxxx
A hauberk covers xxxx and so on.
A bit of new armor. I would love to see scale/lammelar armor.
a complete list of armor pieces worn seperately FREX chainmail might list
vest
costs xxxx
covers xxxx
weighs xxxx
Also a list of different quality ratings and costs for armor would be cool.
A few new weapons, the current list is excellent however I would like to see a few thrown weapons (Fransica and Hurlbats and thrown maces oh my). Also a bit more detail on knives would be neat, stilelto, clip point <the vikings used these> long knife <those 18'' number like the scramasax> and so on.
A few new weapons styles. Really there aren't that many different styles of fighting but there may be enough differences between the Weyerth rapier schools to merit a note.
JMO I thing an Arnis/Esrima style would be preety neat even if it might not be period
Asian MA coverage: HMM Now there is a tough one, there are Asian analogs on Weyerth for most of the cultures including India but can TFOB do them justice?
Unarmed styles are easy, at the granulinity level of TROS there is no difference between Karate forms so no worys, 1 generic from each culture would work well enough for this book but when it comes to armed. Ahh Now there is the rub....
I can off the top of my head name many weird oriental weapons that were used in martial arts and combat, delights such as the urumi <Indian razor whip> chakram, shuriken, pata <gauntlet sword> and tons more.
The problem is I don't think there is enough room in the book for them.
IMO They should either go into the appropriate Weyerth splatt book (ala White Wolf) or better into an Asian Combat supplement (The Art of War maybe)
If they can't cover the mass of weapons I would suggest just sticking to European ones and a smattering of Asian instead.
Other than that notes on the military life and costs creation of armies, integration of sorcerery in battle and lots and lots of castle, siege and war stuff would be keen .
Oh and if you aren't completely out of room a discussion of cinematic versus realisitc combat. All those rapiers makes folks think Errol Flynn when they should be thinking George Silver) and firearms Handgonne to Flintlock
Whew
Anybody else have suggestions to torment Jake with?
By all means...keep 'em coming. I confess that TFOB is a daunting task to me, and the main reason it's third in the pipe (and not first) is that it has a certain level of quality that really comes down to a ton of research (both in the library, in practice, and in interviews with practicioners when I can't get my hands on the right equipment or training...which is going to be most of TFOB).
SO what I'm saying is, input from you all is GOOD.
Jake
I know "I agree posts" aren't the most useful thing in the world, but I'd like to chime in basically in concurrence with Ace.
Specifically, I'd love to see more about armour - what zones a suit covers, and what its component pieces are (and what zone they cover).
That'd make my TROS day. More armours, perhaps instead of merely Plate with a variable AV, break it into the different kinds that I've been hearing about.
What to do on the large scale is something that always seems to come up in practice in most of our RPG games. Some army (or group of 50 soldiers) or another runs rampant and the PCs need to interact with it. There are various ways to handle it: a nifty TROS way wouldn't be out of line.
A section on the different between swordslinging life and army life would be good; it's been touched on a few times especially in regards to the rapier, but expounding on that would be good. What makes weapons get used in large battles, even when they wouldn't in duels or vice versa.
You've applied the realism brush to adventuring combat well, applying it to general military life and combat would be edifying, if possible.
Just some thoughts.
*AR*
Another issue, besides content, is how much? How much book are we willing to pay for? All of the suggestions are totally valid and very much interesting.. But how many pages is it going to take just to cover the basics? How much to add every suggestion that Jake hasn't already counted on? I'd say that it wouldn't be unrealistic to believe that the book might, just might be as large as the main book with all of the suggestions we're making.
I would pay for it. I'd love the book to be that thick (though preferably not a hardbound) but Jake has to consider what will sell, because what doesn't sell is a cost Driftwood will eat. How many of us would buy a sourcebook that large? One of TRoS's selling points is that all the rules are in the one book with no need to buy a GM's Guide and Player's Guide.. With a book this big, some might consider it a cop out.
My theory on this is that most of us who already LIKE TRoS will buy it, no matter how meaty it is.. Most of us will like it all the more the bigger it is. But those who get into TRoS somewhere down the road may get intimidated by this 260 page book and 260 (or so) page sourcebook..
...............................
But, other than that... I like everything suggested so far, with little else to add as far as content. Most of what I've seen suggested is something I've asked for in the past.
I'm writing here without having seen TROS but being intrigued by peoples reviews and comments.
So writing as one interested in Medieval and Renaisance European fighting styles (sufficiently so as to avoid most games that try to simulate them) how does TROS measure up and how does it get there?
Ace, you've mentioned a few technical things that raise in me the hope of a game that would let me integrate some serious simulation of fighting with solid character driven narrative.
Below I discuss some matters historical with the general question: Are these details intergral to TROS, or can these elements of game play be ignored, and would the system be made neater by ignoring them?
Quote from: AceUnarmed styles are easy, at the granulinity level of TROS there is no difference between Karate forms so no worrys, 1 generic from each culture would work well enough for this book but when it comes to armed. Ahh Now there is the rub....
One of the important things about different schools of martial arts, East and West, is what order things were taught in. Complete systems in real life tend to share a lot of characteristics but get there by very different routes.
Very generally the tendancy is that intermediate scholars will display the characteristics of particular schools strongly, while novices and experts tend towards seeming more general. Some schools try to equip the scholar at all stages with a fair defence, others don't expect competence until all the techniques are understood. Does this type of effect show itself in TROS character generation and play?
Also most non-sporting weapons system including grappling and other techniques, generally very distinctive subsets, is TROS is tuned to this level of distinction.
Issues like the suitability of a type of weapon, with a school of fight, for the circumstances of a given fight (mismatched styles, half learned styles, unsuitable terrain, unfamiliar weapons) should matter.
Quote from: AceOther than that notes on the military life and costs creation of armies, integration of sorcerery in battle and lots and lots of castle, siege and war stuff would be keen.
A game that could make this type of stuff intergrally relevant to an unfolding narrative would be great. To my mind individual characters (reflected in what skills they've aquired and how they can apply them) should effect the outcome of conflicts like this for it to matter in the game system, otherwise it's colour with a lot of potential to be flawed and exploitable, what is the case with TROS?
Battle magic: does it parallel gun powder in it's destructive capacity? If it does, then it's effect on military architecture deserves consideration, particularly as gun powder undermined high walls, so a land that always had that destructive capacity would possibly never have bothered with high walled fortifications.
Quote from: AceOh and if you aren't completely out of room a discussion of cinematic versus realisitc combat. All those rapiers makes folks think Errol Flynn when they should be thinking George Silver) and firearms Handgonne to Flintlock.
Point taken, but it's worth noting that Silver is distinctive as being strongly opposed to the use of rapiers, he advocates the short sword over the rapier and presents techniques that work in defense and a variety of circumstances but perhaps aren't tuned to stand so strong in the duel, which is okay because he's strongly against dueling. For Rapier Saviolo and De Grassi and many others
Silvers "Brief Instructions..." is a fabulous example of variety in styles of fighting in Renaissance Europe. He prestents something quite different from what's current in Germany and Italy at the time.
Silver's interested in "true" and "false" types of fights and weapons (understanding circumstances of unbalanced fights to your advantage), he's strongly defensive in the techniques he presents (keep yourself alive, wait for the openning, don't lose your temper), he presents a unity of techniques across a range of weapons (cross training for the gentleman learning to defend himself).
Comparing his long sword to Ringeck is an education: the English style he presents has fewer techniques, advocates avoiding certain complications, and to compensate talks a lot about making use of distance and timing, emphasises a strong defense. Ringeck presents a much more aggressive style, complications comparible to schools dedicated to rapier play, lots of grappling. Italian long sword is something else again, (so I'm told...).
Which is all back ground to my question about the TROS, as a potential purchaser, how much does schooling combined with circumstance and character effect play? Occasionally the unspoken dialogue that is a fight reveals character more than any banter could, is this what TROS delivers?
Thanks,
Julian Kelsey.
From FoB, I would be looking for stuff like "how to fight in a shield wall" sorta stuff. I often find that duel-based games suffer when in a mass-combatant environment.
Couple things. First CC is right on. Brace of Rapiers is great for a duelist. I want it clear how putting those practitioners on the battle field will result in a very messy death. There has to be rules that simulate the effects of battle from an individual perspective (we don't need a RoS minatures war game...at least not yet). I'd look to Pendragon's battle system for inspiration.
But here is something that is of especial importance to me, so I'll bold it so it won't be missed. IMO...NO ASIAN STUFF AT ALL.
Why
1) There is enough material on Western warfare to fill two supplements. Trying to cram eastern warfare into the book will just cause both to suffer. If info on the east must be done, keep it for a dedicated book for later in the pipeline.
2) In the real world east and west didn't mix until well after the period covered in Wyerth. The only knowledge the west should have of the east is fifth hand information passed along trade routes and maybe some quasi mythical marco polo style expedition. If the vast majority of people should know little about the eastern cultures, then including them is just so much wasted space.
3) The debate between "whose a better swordsman, a samurai or a fencer" has been raging for years between real practitioners. I for one have no desire to see the dispute played out in RoS with all of the attendent arguement over which style got sold short that's bound to entail.
4) The weakest arguement because its purely my own personal taste...asian stuff interests me zero. Knights and swashbuckers yes. Japanese Samurai and Chinese Kung Fu, no. Asian ethics and philosophies filtered down to western minds who have no real understanding of them and no real desire to know more than "which style lets me kick the most ass"...definitely no.
Only problem with your argument Valamir is that a player can choose to play an eastern character. Admittedly most things seem to be focused in the West, but the East (asia) and the South (africa et al) are viable options for player characters.
To totally disinclude any eastern stuff would be unfair to those players. I don't feel that it should be the focus of the book, but a mention, in the form of an unarmed proficiency that makes an effort to be more than brawling or wrestling, and a few eastern martial arts weapons, would hardly be a bad thing.
Quote from: WolfenOnly problem with your argument Valamir is that a player can choose to play an eastern character. Admittedly most things seem to be focused in the West, but the East (asia) and the South (africa et al) are viable options for player characters.
To totally disinclude any eastern stuff would be unfair to those players. I don't feel that it should be the focus of the book, but a mention, in the form of an unarmed proficiency that makes an effort to be more than brawling or wrestling, and a few eastern martial arts weapons, would hardly be a bad thing.
Bah :-)
No GM I'd be interested in playing with would allow a mixed nationality group that extreme (chances are it would devolve into the Kewl move of the month club), and those that would like to set their campaign entirely in one of those areas can make do or wait for a dedicated eastern book to come out (as does anyone whose favorite splat hasn't been released yet). When I bought Way of the Lion, I didn't expect it to be filled with Way of the Crane stuff just to be fair to the Cranes.
The combat rules as presented in TROS book are specifically geared towards small scale (only a few combatants) battles. I'd like to see TFOB expand the combat rules to give specific mechanics to large scale battles and wars. Weyrth is a very dangerous place, and I can't imagine that it would go too long (more than a century or so) without at least one major war happening somewhere.
I must disagree on the inclusion of Asian style Martial arts. while everyone is afraid that the game would degenerate into Kewl Powerz I disagree there.
Also unlike on our earth the Asian style cultures have more than a little contact with the west on Weyerth.
A particular example, Yone has extensive trade with fauth which has extensive ties with the seat of the Xanarian Empire and Gelure both.
Weyerth is not really Europe and it doesn't exist in the cutlral vacumn that Europe seemed to.
Not wanting Bladeslingers to be replaced with Samurai I can understand but Asian combat ought to be covered sooner or later.
QuoteWhen I bought Way of the Lion, I didn't expect it to be filled with Way of the Crane stuff just to be fair to the Cranes.
True enough, but TFoB isn't going to be a Mainlund Splatbook. It's going to be the "comprehensive" (don't let the word scare ya Jake. ::grins::) book on combat. I wouldn't expect a bunch of stuff on eastern or southern combat arts if this were to be "TFoB:Mainlund (Volume 1 of 3)", but unless plans change, it's not going to be that. If it's to cover, even slightly, the various ways of combat, then there will have to be a nod toward the east and south.
This wouldn't have to be a really big deal, either. All I, personally, expect is a few eastern weapon stats, MAYBE a separate proficiency if a particular weapon style was vastly different from the existing styles, and a hand-to-hand style. That's it. The styles in the main book cover most eastern weapons (the katana, etc.) neatly.
Although I don't see a need for asian martial arts, I can definitely see a use for a broad mention of the different war tactics used by the various countries. Especially with the holy war of the religions starting to break out as a major clash...
And as little as I want to see a "kewl" mixed group thing, I was definitely impressed that both India and Africa got a spot in the game world and I would hate to see them only get token mention.
Chris
I feel like ranting a bit...or maybe rambling, I'm not sure, but hell, it's my forum and I can if I want (right?).
The "asian" issue in TROS does present quite the conundrum (that's a word, right?). Especially within me. I am a practicioner of western martial arts and have learned first-hand the non-superiority of asian styles. Yes, many asian styles are very good. Yes, there are lots of fine martial artists in the asian sphere. But I also know that our european ancestors (of course I don't mean to imply that all of us have european ancestors...) were martial artists beyond--IMO--our capability today...guys who trained to kill from age 7. Based on the sheer brutality and directness of the western forms, I'd even set them up as "superior," but only according to my own criteria (and not neccessarily to yours).
So here's the problem...I love samurai movies. I love Yojimbo, Sanjuro, and anything else Kurosawa and/or Mifune has done. The swordsmanship in those films is excellent by movie standards (oh man, let's not even talk about the horrible bastardization of european martial arts and swords in film...). When I was writing TROS I read Hagakure, Musashi, Yamomoto, Sun Tzu, and all the asian guys right along side Silver, Talhoffer, Ringeck, and Caeser...much of the idea of "riddle seeking" is from asian mysticism (as opposed to western science).
No, asian styles in TROS will not be "Kewl Powerz." The whole idea makes me shake violently and want to wretch. An asian combat book, "The art of War," would be pretty cool, but isn't currently realistic (then again, neither was selling out in 3 months, and it looks like we're going to do that). So what about FoB?
I think we're going to have katana and other more "standard" oriental weapons...stuff that I can research and make educated mechanics for. I'm staying away from any wierness or "kewl"ness. I want a little section on Samurai and warrior monks, perhaps, but only a little one, with instructions on keeping them separate from the west if you want a true TROS feel.
That's what I'm thinking (and what I've been thinking). Thoughts?
Jake
First I echo agreement with increased detail on armor. I would like to see at least open helmets vulnerable to thrusts to the face. Additional rules on wrestling would be good, for pulling off helms, stabbing pinned folks with daggers (in armpit or face), etc. Rules for weapon breakage (including shearing of spearshafts by dopplehanders). More offensive options with shields perhaps? More on mounted combat and maybe missile combat (add Roman pilum to the request for Francisca, if they don't use it in Weyrith now, perhaps the Empire once did?...) More on combat "in battle" rather than only "in duel", as asked for by others, would interest me as well.
I would love to see a realisitic battle system for TROS, on a level similar to Pentragon perhaps but also a miniatures-style system (with realism closer to, say, Chivalry & Sorcery's 2nd edition battles system, rather than D&D battlesystem). If this is beyond the scope of Flower of Battle (a perfect title to include such, though...), perhaps as a separate project/book?
On the Asian weapons/martial arts topics, I don't mind seeing such included as long as:
1) no more detail is given to them as is to WMA (including unarmed arts, WMA included unarmed combat afterall);
2) the Asian weapons/systems are not unrealistically turned into "superweapons", but realistic advantages & disadvantages are included;
3) they don't take away from all the other stuff I'd like to see ;)
Enough from me for now on all this, though I might think of more later...
some things i would like to see in tfob:
war rules (mass combat, siege engines, attacking a castle or other type of fortification and doing damage to and destroying fortifications)
more weapons and armor
ship to ship combat rules
ancient firearms
tournament rules (such as jousting)
im also on the side of the argument that doesnt mind seeing more oriental things in it
Quote from: malumim also on the side of the argument that doesnt mind seeing more oriental things in it
Count me in for the oriental stuff as well. Seeing
realistic[/u] asian weapons and combat info in a game would be great. But let's not forget the rest of Weyrth. I'd like to know more about the other non-european elements of the world. Wasn't there some mention of african bits in the game? Let's hit those as well!
Brandon
I would like a list of tools and their weapon(tool?) stats, for peasant uprising, improvising characters and such.
In fact, I hoped that Jake might supply us(or me, at least) on this very forum with the stats for the kind of work-dagger or knife that everybody wears. I'm sure its mentioned somewhere in the book that everybody has a dagger, but the daggers in the weapon lists seem more like specialised duel daggers.
Quote from: AceI must disagree on the inclusion of Asian style Martial arts. while everyone is afraid that the game would degenerate into Kewl Powerz I disagree there. SNIP
Weyerth is not really Europe and it doesn't exist in the cutlral vacumn that Europe seemed to.
Not wanting Bladeslingers to be replaced with Samurai I can understand but Asian combat ought to be covered sooner or later.
I have to go with Ace on the fact that the addition of Asian abilities, properly done, would not do any damage to the integrity of the game. As long as we consider that the asian side pays more attention to the spiritual aspect. In a way we do as well, ever wonder where the concept of the Fey came from? European folklore and pre-christian pagan value systems.
Well, from my some what limited experience in history, I don't think Europe ever had much in the way of a cultural vacuum. From what I have been able to tell a large amount of trade went on between the neighboring "continents". An example would be the fine silks that began to find their way into Europe, trade became so brisk that a French King (c. 1300's?) actually formed a guild to handle the silks coming from the orient, and what about the Venetians? Or the Florentines? HUGE amount of movement of goods to & from the orient. All this and there is no way that a cultural vacuum, or barrier, existed. It was just that each side thought of the other as savages/heathens etc. I chalk it up to the fact that over the last five hundred years we have lost a lot of the knowledge of what really went on in the day to day life. I mean, even now we don't really know how the swordsmiths made such incredible weapons (I think there are longswords from the 1500's that are better than anything we can make today), of course many great Renaissance men did spend a lot of time at various arsenals, and not for the betterment of their health either.
Please understand this is just a theory, the samurai was a great and very formidable warrior, but from what I am seeing during my training with the longsword, the Meisters and thier students of the time were no less capable.
I have heard that TFoB will include massed combat rules for battle fields, laying seige, raising seige, seige weapons etc. all very good stuff, I am looking forward to seeing this type of material, as I am planning on a Renaissance Europe based campaign.
I was speaking with Spartan before our current game and he got me to wondering about the other types of proofness in our past, could we beg and plead to see things like ring mail, studded leather and cuir boulli jacks? How about jezeraint (scale) mail and brigandine (coat of plates?). I am sure I am running the risk of getting a murderous look for this, but what about covering some subtypes of weapons? Would a Stilleto do similar types of damage as a Rondel Dagger? How about just clarifying some potential misconceptions such as the destructive capacity of a Flambard? What about differnet types of crossbows? A hunting crossbow is not going to do as much damage as an Arbelest and nowhere near as much as a Seige Arbalest.
How about a short segment on other "Genres"? In this I mean, The Mid East, the Far East and maybe even a bit on the "New World". Just a quick rundown of a functional selection of weapons, armour and schools (proficiencies) for each, and a few paragraphs on each "Genre" to put it in context for us to understand the basics and let us apply it as we see fit.
I agree, we must keep the idea of the Asian Martial Arts doing amazing things in context. They may be amazing to us now, but what about our Fore Fathers? I think that the skill of the samurai can be mirrored in what our own knights and landsknechts (land knights) were capable of. After all, men of great reknown in the fileds of science and art weilded these weapons as well. I cannot see them being brutes lurching about the field and sloppily chopping enemies down. The fighting schools must have also taught their own particular version of science and art.
I would also be glad to assist in researching any of the things I mentioned if that would help bring the book out faster... =)
I think the idea of martial arts would be OK. Please don't take it to the level that Oriental Adventures did (hard, soft, hard/soft, ki powers, etc., etc., etc.....) If ninjas start walking through walls and samurai start doing episode 2 yoda-style jedi-flips, then i'm going to be really disappointed.
On the issue of guns, I'm not too enamored of them, really. I'm afraid of winding up with the cartoonish wierdness of WFRP (cannons on river boats, dwarven helicopters, steam tanks, et al). Besides, this is the Riddle of Steel, not the Riddle of Flintlocks.
I think the primary thing would be an expansion to the armor rules insofar as area coverage, and some tactical/mass combat. New styles, maneuvers and so on aren't that necessary IMO.
On the hardcover/paperback issue, hardcover all the way, baby! I love hard covers, they look better on the shelf and last way longer than paper back books ever will. I have a 1e dmg with the 'new cover' (wizard in green robes) and it's still in great shape, even after years of use. Only a couple of bent corners. Paperback books fall apart, the covers get bent easily, well, you get the picture.
For the record, I paid an extra $15CDN (about $10US) for the hardcover version of the Realm of Sorcery for WFRP just to ensure the life of the book. Besides, it goes with my hardcover WFRP corebook and the hardcover Realm of Chaos books from 89-91. I would do the same if TFOB came out in hard cover. Same for all the books, actually.
To sum up: Armor, Mass combat, Hardcover book.
Quote from: arxhonI think the idea of martial arts would be OK. Please don't take it to the level that Oriental Adventures did (hard, soft, hard/soft, ki powers, etc., etc., etc.....) If ninjas start walking through walls and samurai start doing episode 2 yoda-style jedi-flips, then i'm going to be really disappointed.
Not to nitpick, but TROS does cover martial arts, it's just Western Martial Arts (as opposed to Eastern Martial Arts). :)
--Steve Reich
In regards to asian culture: This idea isn't based on anything concrete. But I sort of connect Japanese fighting culture with intensity of mind and such. I can't remember that culture in the game already that give you a player bonus of being able to have higher faith than five, but like that. These asian cultures let you have a slightly higher max in a SA when wielding their types of weapons (preferably there would be some heritage to the weapon itself, to make it such a focus. Either personal or in general). So its possible to have a higher SA to use with it, but its treated as being lower with other weapons. Intensity.
Eh, that might be a bit kewl powery...oh well. Be sure to allow people to fight while standing on the end of bamboo, heh heh heh.
As to mass combat, screw just rolling one units dice against another units. Well, have that as the basic setting. But have story ideas and/or mechanics that still make the PC's of importance to every battle. So in the end the player can say "Hey, my PC did so and so in that battle to help it be won. And over there, my PC did this clever move around the side and took out one of their commanders, leaving them in disarray". That sort of thing. Ideas and/or mechanics. People are playing characters, when they start running battles that their PC's can't affect much at all (A leadership roll here and there is a bit yawnish to me), their not playing their characters anymore, their just players at a table top game.
But I will say, its probably good its in at the back of the line. I'd need to save for it, and the Beats and men supplement will probably satisfy me for now.
QuoteNot to nitpick
Ah, but you did anyway...
I meant 'martial arts' in the colloquial sense. You know, ninjas and kung fu and stuff. That's what most people think of when you say "martial arts', so rather than get pedantic, i used the colloquial term.
Edit: Spelling
Quote from: Noonand the Beats and men supplement will probably satisfy me for now.
Ah yes, Beats and Men, the little known TROS cannibalistic (with vegetables) cookbook ;-)
Brian.
Quote from: malumsome things i would like to see in tfob:
tournament rules (such as jousting)
Well, at least one of your requests will be satisfied quickly. OBAM has jousting rules (as well as lots on horseback combat etc).
If you search back through the forum, you'll find a post from me somewhere outlining how jousting works in TROS/OBAM. It was a while ago though.
Brian.
Quote from: Brian LeybourneQuote from: Noonand the Beats and men supplement will probably satisfy me for now.
Ah yes, Beats and Men, the little known TROS cannibalistic (with vegetables) cookbook ;-)
Brian.
I take it your not aware of current events. Mr Norwood is about to bring TROS into a whole new area of combat: Break dance fights! Ged down to da BEATS!
Then again it could be an entire suplement based around the move 'Beat'. Few, things went down hill fast, eh?
Quote from: Noon
I take it your not aware of current events. Mr Norwood is about to bring TROS into a whole new area of combat: Break dance fights! Ged down to da BEATS!
Then again it could be an entire suplement based around the move 'Beat'. Few, things went down hill fast, eh?
Yeah, that was a big announcement for later. Oh well, the cat's outta the bag...
Jake
I really can't see what all the fuss about asian martial arts is about. IMO it's already covered in the current rules if you include just a little tweaking. Swap the name pugalism for whatever style it is you want to do. When a character gets a highish level of proficiency maybe give him the choice of picking one of the currrent maneuvers he can't do already and add it to this styles ability. For every couple of other levels of proficiency add a bit more. With a slight modification to the kick maneuver ( I took away the activation cost, it seemed like a double penalty when coupled with the higher ATN than a punch, and and added knockdown. Ro vs TN 8, Knockdwon stat reduced by shock) it becomes pretty reasonable. Allow the martial artists to defend against mellee weapons by paying the weapon range cost as an activation cost to his defence and their you have a martial artist. Were they good because they had kewl powers or magic. No. They are just men like their western counterparts who trained really really hard at these things, read high proficiency. A character with an unaramed proficiency of 12 and total CP of 19 or 20 with say counter, beat and feint as options would be pretty good IMO.
As for the spiritual side add a few new skills.. tea ceremony or whatever and cover it in your spiritual attributes, passion bushido/ master etc.
Aaron.
Quote from: AaronI really can't see what all the fuss about asian martial arts is about. IMO it's already covered in the current rules if you include just a little tweaking. Swap the name pugalism for whatever style it is you want to do.
The Eastern Martial arts were at least as diverse as their Western counterparts. There was an Eastern equivalent for just about every style in the TROS book (with the possible exception of Lance. I don't think heavy cavalry ever really happened in Asia.)
But more importantly, they are WEIRD. Different schools had very different focuses. Pugilism is a very stand-on-your-feet-and-hit-with-your-hands approach to unarmed combat. Ju-jutsu is something slightly different. Karate is even more different.
I'm not saying they're better, what I am saying is that TROS rules don't really reflect most of them currently, and it takes someone pretty knowledgeable in a style to make up rules for it.
Quote from: Bob RichterI'm not saying they're better, what I am saying is that TROS rules don't really reflect most of them currently, and it takes someone pretty knowledgeable in a style to make up rules for it.
Which is why I haven't done it, but anyone with the proper credentials is welcome to contact me about making the proper mods.
Jake
I for one have absolutely zero desire to see such rules. The idea of "oh great another game full of fu" leaves me completely disinterested. Same with movies for me really.
Fu = Yawn
I would be inclined to stick to the initial target, european martial arts, rather than produce a generalist overview. Most of the glamour/colour of the oriental settings have been done to death, and I'd think if you;re gong to do a TROS treatment of them it would be better to take the time and do it right.
As someone who's spent some fair time studying "eastern" martial arts, I also don't see what the big, big fuss is. The overspecialization of some arts(iaijutsu for instance), is the result of an enforced peacetime on a culture(in this case, Japan). Even the mods that I have done are mostly due to game reasons, not "my martial arts" reasons, and the only couple that are due to that is because my style is pretty funky and out there.
But from real life experience, a knife in your gut is a knife in your gut, whether you call it a inline thrust, an angle 5, or "tiger claw" strike. When it comes to fighting, used in real life, uneffective stuff gets pushed to the side. The only major difference in styles comes about to what's effective against who you are fighting, in the environment you're in, with the weapons available to you.
Weather and materials determine armor(Is it too hot for armor?). Environment and armor determine fighting tactics(is there room for calvary? How many people can we get on a field? Is it mountains? Jungle?). Environment, material, tactics and armor determine weapons. Weapons and tactics determine style. Style then influences things again as people adapt. It's a nasty complicated web, held together by blood and prayers, and somehow, someone figures out the key connection to win enough to be called a victor.
East or west, is irrelevant. It's living or dead.
Chris
Chris-
I gotta agree with that one.
jake
Quote from: Jake Norwood
Which is why I haven't done it, but anyone with the proper credentials is welcome to contact me about making the proper mods.
Jake
I've been doing Muay Tai for a couple of years, thats why I made the modifiers to kick. As for the rest I agree with Chris. Especially with regard to environment and armour. Give characters real reasons why it's not a good idea to wear their armour in certain conditions.
For the mass combat rules I'll throw my two cents in and say I'd like to see rules or suggestions in TFOB on how to play characters through a large battle or melee. I'd like to see a mass battle played from the PC's perspective. I'm think of the opening battle in Gladiator with the camera focusing on Maximus. Parry a blow from someone on the left, dodge and kill someone coming straight at you, nearly strike an ally, knocked down and saved by a friend(i knoewit wasn't like that in the film but you know what I mean!!). That sort of thing. Something that really reflects the chaotic nature of mass combat.
Aaron
Quote from: AaronFor the mass combat rules I'll throw my two cents in and say I'd like to see rules or suggestions in TFOB on how to play characters through a large battle or melee. I'd like to see a mass battle played from the PC's perspective. I'm think of the opening battle in Gladiator with the camera focusing on Maximus. Parry a blow from someone on the left, dodge and kill someone coming straight at you, nearly strike an ally, knocked down and saved by a friend(i knoewit wasn't like that in the film but you know what I mean!!). That sort of thing. Something that really reflects the chaotic nature of mass combat.
Aaron
My personal feelings are to see really 2 mass combat systems. One for running the fight and it's outcome, another for what the PCs are doing there as individuals (Pendragon does this second one rather well, IMO).
Jake
Hi All,
I'm new here but I'm in ARMA with Jake. I'm trying to read as much as I can on the forum to catch up and a real old rpg player and GM from way back.
I read some questions in reference to mass combat rules. IMO the more rules you make the more confused you and the players will get. K.I.S.S. (Keep it simple stupid) as we say in the military. When I run mass combat I role (ROLE) play the hell out of it. When I would run a bar brawl for example that occured from a duel gone wrong I would role play it. I would throw something at my players, leave them for thought and then come back to them. For EXAMPLE: I would tell John "As the fighting is going on in front of you some one comes up from behind you and attempts to put you into a head lock.....I'll get back to you....think about what you're going to do" and then I would move on to the person and go around the table.
You can have a player faced off against 5 people and role play 3 of them and the other 2 you can "use the rules of combat/use the dice" It speeds the game up, sparks the imagination and accomplishes the player's main mission which is to have fun :)
I never say "o.k. you've been hit" no no....live it up a little...."his blade on his falchion draw cuts across your forearm and the knicks in the edge tear at your flesh and you can see the pleasure in his eyes as you bite down sucking your sweat in" but say it quickly and move the game along.
Just giving some helpful pointers
Cheers,
Todd
I reckon the cool thing about TROS' system is it's generic-ness (hmmm, good word).
I don't believe the system needs elaborating in order to portray eastern styles. The varied manouvers discussed within pretty much describe the process of combat irespective of style.
Differing schools and styles would have an in-game effect as far as I see it. A particular school, or clan of people, might have techniques which get fighters to a certain level of combat-awareness, ken, etc... quicker and more efficiently than other schools. They are thus more likely, as an institutation, to have more capable warriros amongst their ranks than a more inferior technique. But a proficiency level 5 Kung-fu dude, or Karate dude, or ninja dude, or swashbuckler dude, are all lvl 5. They are all of a comparative similar level. Only the approaches they favour would set them apart in any way.
This ingame effect would also show itself in tendencies. Certain schools might favour aggressive tactics. Another might concentrate on feints and the integration of close-quarter combat to melee weapons.
These factors would thus influence NPCs over the PC. The coolness of TROS comes in some part from that riddle-seeking aspect, that freedom of the PC as being an entity free of cultural bias, searching for something more meaningful than conformity. As such, though a PC might originate from a particular school, the player is free to play the character as he wishes, even though his npc buddies might follow a certain established approach.
You want rules for ijitsu (that spelled right?... the art of quick-draw)? You want ur samurai PC to perform that most cool of techniques and bring down the incompetent thug in one graceful strike? Then have the PC keep his weapon sheathed (forcing a reflex test when the thug attacks) followed by a 'seize initiative' manouever in order to strike first. You gotta have enuff dice, I grant you. But only a master samurai would pull the move off to begin with. So there you go, instant quick-draw.
Sorry, another rant. But this was to state my belief that TROS doesn't require further elaboration in order to portray eastern styles. The system's flexibility allows for them already. More rules would just confuse the matter.
Take care
Quote from: Vanguard
But this was to state my belief that TROS doesn't require further elaboration in order to portray eastern styles. The system's flexibility allows for them already. More rules would just confuse the matter.
Take care
Van,
I agree. GM's should also take into consideration that they can build and create for thier players. Such as if a player wants to add a guild or fencing parlor and from those schools a certain technique is created. If the players takes time to present some work conducted on the subject than the GM should be more than willing to assit in creating or adding to thier gaming table, as long as it is not some incredible instant kill technique.
Coming from ARMA many folks don't realize the grappling, wrestling, and hand to hand fighting is available in europeon historical manuals. Asia is not the only continent that has elaborate fighting systems in using a weapons, hand or foot and that is what I think TROS is all about. Such as one of the 5 primary gaurds called Oches (OX) in which a person goes into this position from drawing forth a long sword from it's scabbard, simular to the japanese quick/draw cut.
I remember Oriental Adventures wasn't a very big success for TSR. If player wants something, such as a Ronin type character for TROS then I say it is up to the GM if that character comes into thier world. I personnally am a big fan of Mifune :)
A good GM should always be open to suggestions from players but be firm and not let the players walk on him/her. When I GM I am firm but I'm fair and not a "killer" GM. My players know they can't sit an argue a point. If I tell them that something happened and it goes against the rules, they know I'm doing it for a reason and that reason increases the flavor of the game and doesn't physically or mentally take away from thier characters.
Just my 2 cents
Cheers,
Todd
Just another 2 cents on Asian martial arts from me.
I'd like to see some more on unarmed combat. Maybe different stats on kicks (spin, jump whatever). And some more weapon stats. Maybe armor. And that would be most all you'd need for 'official' TRoS Asian martial arts.
If people want a cinematic TRoS Asian Martial Arts Supplement, they should do it on a website. I'd be curious to see what they'd do!
Gene
I ran a campaign with a sumarai player character and made no modifications and the game ran great. I used the number of dice used in an attack and the location to depict the nature of the attack. A spinning roundhouse kick was lots of dice to the head which the system as is handled superbly well.
Just say no to 'Orientalism'
For starters, amongst other things, I practice Oriental martial arts. I did 7 years of Kali and 7 years of Muay Thai. I've also got a black belt in Tae Kwon Do (softer on my body than Muay Thay now that I am getting older), and am working towards a black belt in Kendo. I've played with European weapons a bit, and am a fan of John Clements, ARMA, and the whole Western Martial Arts stuff.
The problem with adding in Oriental weapons is what do you add in? Japanese stuff? Fine, but then you risk having all the uninformed jump in and tell you that you got the characteristics of the weapon wrong. In fact, one of the reasons I think Exalted from White Wolf never included the Katana is because your average role-player seems to think that a Katana can kill a T-Rex with a single cut.
Of course, if the Katana was so awesome, then why didn't Japan definitively conquer Korea, China, and the rest of the world with this super-sword? They didn't. One might argue that internal politics prevented this from happening, but after the Tokugawa Shoganate took control, you would have thought that if the Japanese sword was so awesome that the unified Japanese command would have taken over the world.
Which doesn't match anything from real Japanese history. In Japanese history, the sword is a duelling piece, not a battlefield item. The spear (Yari) and naginata and bow were the battlefield killers. The Samurai didn't charge in to the fray with swords drawn. Nope, the Samurai of the Sengoku Jidai were doing what their comrades in England were doing at the same time, except they called their favorite polearm a 'naginata' instead of a 'brown bill'.
Then there is the forging issue. We can debate it forever, but the swords of the 1500-1600s European smiths showed an incredible level of metalurgical skill. They could be used against flesh and bone and armor and bend with the strike, coming back to the original shape. They held an edge for a decent period of time. The Japanese sword, in comparison was a stiff slashing weapon designed for use in unarmored duels. Very different. Not better or worse, just very different. But how do you convince average gamer joe to understand this bit of history?
By keeping clear of Orientalism it means you don't have to worry about this critique so much. People leafing through TROS at a gaming store don't gripe that the 'katana is done wrong'.
One more thing, on kicks and Samurai. Samurai were primarily grapplers, not strikers. Karate is an import from Okinawa. And Jiu-Jitsu in all its classical forms doesn't kick higher than the leg, when it does bother to kick at all.
Finally, from 7+ years experience with weapons I know that doing that in a kick to the head against an armed opponent just gives said opponent the chance to ruin my leg.
::Sound of clapping::
Jake
Would just like to reiterate that there is really no need for vast changes to oriental styles in RoS. My group at home (apparently) has been using the RoS rules for a game about ninjas with little or no difficulty. It's all the same weapons.
yrs--
--Ben
I agree with both Eamon Voss and Ben Lehman. Eamon Voss hit the nail on the head about the problems of including Orientalism in TROS and all of the problems that would come up. But I also agree that to include in your home games, it would be very easy--provided everyone has a realistic understanding of the differences and similarities between the Oriental and Occidental fighting styles and weapons. However, IMHO, to do a "true Oriental" FRPG involves more than just incorporating weapons and fighting styles--which would require basically a whole other sourcebook to TROS.
Steve Reich
Hi there
My first post at this great site, but it was about an issue I feel quite strongly about so I felt obliged to toss in my two cents.
I think the problem is the general perception of gamers (and the public for that matter) in considering that there is something unique or special about the Oriental Martial Arts. Possibly that is a consequence of the philosophies and traditions such arts espouse as well as the cineamatic treatment they receive.
My own background is unarmed and weapon based Oriental systems - primarily Japanese Sword and Jo-work from Aikido and for the last several years a focus on the Filipino Martial Arts. However in the last year or so I have also been looking at the historical manuals for various Western Martial Arts, which are available on the net. This was because I became aware that much of the Filipino systems owed its development on the Spanish colonial influence.
My conclusion quickly became that there is no superior art in terms of East and West. Each school has its own methods for training the student up to a level of competency but the end result was that the student was being trained to survive on the streets and battlefields of whichever locale they resided in. So for example in Okinawa a farmer could not carry a sword so learned to develop the use of agricultural and fishing tools as weapons, whereas at a particular time in Italy a gentleman might be carrying a rapier and dagger or wearing a cloak leading to the development of fighting methods using those items. Thus my feeling is that fighting systems evolved from the environment and culture in which they developed in. There is no superior art - perhaps there are simply superior students (which I can not claim to be).
The other idea I came to during the course of my comparison of Western and Eastern Martial Arts was that there was no difference in the concepts and principles being used. There would still be blocking, parrying, feinting etc. The human body is only capable of certain motions so attacks would still be going in on the same angles and lines. The only difference in the arts is the design of the weapon being used. Obviously some cultures developed some very exotic weaponery but in basics a weapon can still be grouped into the categories used in the TROS system.
I guess my thought on TFOB supplement is that it would be nice to have a descriptions of the different sort of weapons devloped in different cultures and the different armors they used. Perhaps also a discussion of differences in strategies and fighting mentality, but in terms of game mechanics there would not really be any need to make major change. After all a weapon would only still inflict piercing, cutting or bludgeoning damage and is there really that much difference between the effects of a longsword or a Katana on the Human Body?
I've just realised how much I've written so I apologise. My only other point is that I for one would be interested in seeing a section on various types of firearm if only to help when I use TROS in other settings.
Regards
kanseg
PS Love the Game, Mr Norwood.
You've hit the nail squarely on the head with the proverbial hammer, methinks.
tauman
I wish I would have gotten into this conversation earlier but I'm going to try and catch up now.
On the inclusion of eastern martial arts, I would have to agree with Jake in his original rant. I love the old style samurai stories and movies like Seven Samurai and such and I am also currently reading Musashi; however, I also have a new seeded love for western martial arts thanks to TROS and ARMA. Now I'd like to see some eastern martial arts but for the most part as background and filler to flesh out the world of Weryth and not to make another HKAT or L5R game. (I got nothing against these by the way) I have faith in Jake and his team to really make TFOB great and keep it in the same realism that he has been. It is this selling point that makes a number of people take a second look at the game. If you take this same zeal toward eastern martial arts although to a lesser extent (There is just so much there) people might actually realize that in essence all the fighting styles in the world all have similarities...there are only so many ways that you can punch someone effectively, there are only so many ways the joints bend, there are only so many you can make a slash just like Kanseg said. It is for this reason that I agree with Chris.
Quote from: ChrisThe only major difference in styles comes about to what's effective against who you are fighting, in the environment you're in, with the weapons available to you.
For this reason I think a few added eastern styles should be included for reference and for making the world of weryth more realistic and more like a living world.
Now for things that I'd like to see in TFOB.
1. I'd also like to see the inclusion of siege combat and mass battle rules.
2. Possibly some rules and or inclusion of various artillery and such for larger combats and or sea combat.
3. I'm sure I not alone in asking for stats for more weapons in general in all areas (The more the better)
4. I'm not sure if you are covering this in OBAB but what about aerial combat?
Sorry this was kinda long,
Kevin
Related to stats for more weapons, I would expect many weapons would just say "Use the stats of _____"
I would like to see a list like this.
Also stats (or equivelent weapons) for incidental weapons:
rocks (big ones, small ones)
hooks
cleavers
rakes
pitch forks (not military ones, civilian ones)
chairs
bottles (unbroken and broken)
capes
flaming torches
clubs with sharks teeth imbedded in them
stone discus
ice picks
scythe