There have been some very interesting ideas about Uglub and Gelure on this forum. I just wanted to heat things up a bit, asking what you all think of Uglub's take on sorcery. Does he use it, does he fear it, do other sorcerers fear him? What are his actual terms and uses with the Gifted that he brings into Gelure? What do the people think?
Is he really the Dark Betrayer? Is he Fey? Is he a crock?
Have at it!
Jake
Actually I think Uglub is the Napoleon of Weyerth and a great unifier.
I know this is a 180 degree turn around from the way he is though of but here is my reasoning.
Unlike a lot of the others in Weyerth Ugglub makes a real effort to be inclusive and tolerant within his realm.
Not only are Sorcerers tolerated but they are harnessed for the common good. One hundred or more of the most feared men and women on Weyerth are now usefull parts of the government of Gelure.
In exchange the Sorcerers and Sorceresses get a chance to practice there craft in peace and safety.
In addition the misfits (bladeslingers, troubabdors, religious malcontents etc) have a place in Gelure. Serve well and you shall rise.
Gelure is a meritocracy and while it is not always fair there is a chance for the clever and determined to rise in rank.
Also like another Earth counterpart Timur the Lame there is religious freedom and genral tolerance, any of the many faiths of Weyerth may be practiced as a person wishes.
All Uglub wants is your loyalty and the rest doesn't matter.
Oh there is grumbling among the lower classes but the strength of the Gelure Fist (literal and figurative) keeps them in line.
Justice in Gelure is harsh and somewhat arbitrary but it is no worse than might be faced in Ahr, Tez' Hamun, or Ixliaph.
Now there are countrys like Helena or Yone that will suffer if Uglub had his way but all in all the peasantry won't be any worse off under Gelure than at home.
So what stops him? Well two things, Numbers -Gelure simply doen't have thta many troops or at least enough to satisfy Uglubs ambition and second Faith.
Uglub knows his worst enemy is faith so he perfectly happy to accept the Dark Betrayer mantle.
His claim, He will bring balance to Weyerth. Who knows if that is true?
A little more about Uglub, he is a man of passion and great appetittes. Wine, Women, Song and most of all Conquest fuel his drive and ambition
;) SPOILER ;)
Uglub is a Sorcerer of considerable power, in fact he is one of the blood of the nine and a master of all nine vagaries as well.
While the weilding of such power takes a tremendous toll on the user Uglub knows a Dark Ritual called Stealing The Form that is the real seat of his power.
Uglub can displace the soul of someone and take thier body for himself. The ritual is complex and requires many hours but ionce it and other Ritual "The Familiar Shape" are perfomed Uglub get and brand new life
This power combined with a number of protective devices render Uglub free from the fear of asassination.
The only thing that could stop him are, a strong Sorcerer or someone with a stronger destiny.....
Just for fun my Impression of Uglub
male Human apparent age 25 years old 6'5" 245lbs
A bald man fair skinned with striking black eyes and a heavy jaw
A keen intellegence peers out of those eyes
Stats
ST6
AG6
TO6
EN6
HT6
WP8
WT7
MA7
SOC7
PER7
Skills
most lanuages at 5
all skills from warrior, courtier and ritualist at 5
Proficiences
All vagaries at 3
Several weapons styles at 12-16
Spells
Several dozen mastered and formulaic
Spiritual attrributes
Luck 4
Drive (conquest) 5
Passion (life) 3
Destiny ? 5
SP around 31!!
Gear
Anything he wants in normal gear
He may also have the Scepter of Authority (Major talisman other powers unknown)
The Eye of Gelure (An amulet powers major talisman other powers unknown as well)
A signet ring (a major talisman)
Around him are likely to be his elite guard (The Hand)
Temporal 5(ST,AG,TO 6-7)
Mental 4-5 (Per/Wits +1)
Reflex 6-7
Move 9
CP12-16
Spiritual attributes: Faith or Passion (Uglub related) 3-5
These guards are very well equipped with carefully fitted and spell changed armor and weapons.
Also nearby may be memers of The Council of Nine.
These Sorcerers are Uglubs most trusted councilers . Each is quite powerful in his or her own right, having all vagaries at 3 each and should be given invidual right ups at the discretion of each senechal.
All of the Council members have been magically tested for loyalty and will have a Spiritual Attrributes <Faith or Passion> (uglub related) 3-5
A movie option for a somewhat older version of Uglub, Steven Grives (King Zad) from the Beastmaster TV show.
That's great! Now it makes me want to see what everyone else thinks he looks like, what his stats are, etc...I would LOVE to see that.
And yes, I have my own write up, too...but I'm really interested in all of yours. I was especially happy to see the "Hand" and several other items/possible NPCs. Makes me want to run a campaign in Gelure now.
Can't wait to see what else shows up in here...
Jake
While I am having fun here is a member of the council of 9
Crinosh Velure 4th counciler of the Council of 9
Male Human age 40 5 foot 8 inches 150 lbs fair skin slender with green eyes and straw blond hair
ST5
AG5
TO5
EN5
HT6
WP7
WT7
MA6
Soc6
Per7
Skills
Everything in Swordsman at 7, Ritualist at 5, and courtier at 6
several languages
Proficiencies
All Vagaries at 3
Cut and thrust 15
several other weapons at 10
Spells
A couple of dozen mastered spells including "Conduit" which allows him to use another willing person to buffer aging rolls incured in spell casting and "Dance of the Blade" which allows him to animate a sword for a short period of time
Spirtual attributes
Drive (rise to Uglubs right hand) 4
Luck 2
Faith (in Uglub) 5
concience 1 (maybe his only weakness)
Spell pool: 18
Gear
He usually has a spell changed Cut and Thrust Sword
Spell changed silk armor (protection 4 )
and his Major talisman, an ornate leather arming glove sparkling with tiny jewels.
jake if you like I will also do Penz Zadramass aka "The Enforcer" or "Uglubs Hammer"
if you like I will also do Penz Zadramass aka "The Enforcer" or "Uglubs Hammer"
Bring 'em on...
Jake
Here is a member of the council of 9 Penz Zadramass aka "The Enforcer" or "Uglubs Hammer
PenZ Zadramass 8th counciler of the Council of 9
Male Human age ? 6 foot 3 inches 250 lbs fair skin heavily muscled with blue eyes and straw blond hair in a short braid
ST8
AG7
TO6
EN7
HT7
WP7
WT7
MA6
Soc6
Per7
Skills
Everything in Soldier at 5, Ritualist at 6, and courtier at 6, tactics and battle at 3
several languages including Stahlnish
Proficiencies
All Vagaries at 3
Dopplehander 17
several other weapons at 12
Spells
A couple of dozen mastered spells including "Conduit" which allows him to use another willing person to buffer aging rolls incured in spell casting, "Hammerblow" which allows him to increase the impact of weapons, and Shattering
Spirtual attributes
Drive (conquer the world) 4
Luck 2
Faith (in Uglub) 3
Passion (destruction of uglubs enemies) 2
Concience (protects Gelures women and children) 2
Spell pool: 19
Gear
He usually has a spell changed Dopplehander named "Feindunterbrecher" or Foe Breaker
Spell changed plate armor (AV10 or so)
and his Major talisman, an pagan amulet shaped like a hammer.
Notes.
Penz is something of an Enigma a powerful Sorcerer and general who defected from Stahl to serve Uglub. Specualtion has it that Penz is a follower of the Forge god or some other pagan religion but no one has seen him do anything overtly religious.
Over the years he has proven his worth and loyalty to Uglub and when something very difficult needs to be done Uglub sends Penz to take care of hit.
His Brilliant and ruthless tactics have earned him the nickname "Uglubs Hammer" A nickname he relishes.
Interestingly Penz is very kind to loyal Gelurians especially the peasant class women and children. Over the years he has contibuted a considerable sum to various aid projects and there are many villages where is is lauded as a folk hero.
He does suffer from his bloodlust and considerable appetitite for destruction but he sates these drak desires on Gleures enemies, much to the relief of the people of Gelure
Penz is always accompanied by his familiar a wolfhound named Eisengriff "Iron Grip" and a large number of skilled soldiers often Elite grade (treat as Knights).
He usually also has one or more political prisoners handy to use with conduit spells.
You kn ow jake if I keep this up for much longer I will end up writing the whole Gelure splatbook for you :)
Quote from: Ace
You kn ow jake if I keep this up for much longer I will end up writing the whole Gelure splatbook for you :)
NOOOOOO!!!! Make him stop, Jake!! Make him stop!!!! :P
Quote from: The_FeyQuote from: Ace
You kn ow jake if I keep this up for much longer I will end up writing the whole Gelure splatbook for you :)
NOOOOOO!!!! Make him stop, Jake!! Make him stop!!!! :P
I think You are safe enough for now.
au contrare. Keep 'em coming. What is, in your estimation, the council of 9. Plus, I noticed that your sorcerers have impressive combat pools. I like the push, but I would like to know what prompted it in you.
Also, we're getting ready to release some cool sorcery stuff on the web that will make the council of 9 even more powerful and cool...
Jake
I've always viewed Uglub as "stock" conquerer material as well. He's driven to conquer the world, lawful and just if you accept his rule, but will step on you if you get in his way. He's also brutal enough to do some rather nasty things, like lay waste to a village simply to set an example.
His actually nature I would generally leave untouched. If over time it appears a sorcerous Uglub was needed, I'd toss him in. OTH, I may run Uglub as a charasmatic genius who survives through sheer force of personality and wit.
If you pin me down now, I view Uglub as something unique. He's a halfling (gamewise, as in half-human, half-sidhe) with immense physical and mental abilities, a natural resistance to magic, and nothing else other than drive, drive, and more drive.
-Jeff
Y'know, I always hated it when video games made the General a tougher fighter than his elite death commando guards, or when the king knew more about naval war than his Head Admiral and whatnot. Thus, I see Uglub not as an uber-strong warrior, but as a fiercely powerful leader. I imagine that he has magical capabilities, and that's why he allows, even welcomes the Gifted into his fold. But let's not fool ourselves, he's not a man of fighting with steel.
The way I see it, the man has a Social of at least 7, as well as Persuade, Intimidate, Rulership, Strategy, Tactics and the gift of True Leadership. Probably a low Combat Pool, and a Sorcery Pool of perhaps 12 to 15. He has one sorceror as either a "high advisor" or a "king's guard" type position, as well as more in his army than anybody else. Maybe I'll get more stats out here later.
Lyrax,
Don't get me wrong, your idea is cool and I certainly wouldn't argue that Uglub couldn't be the way you describe (and work well).
I would like to point out, though, that many historical leaders, especially in ancient and medieval times, were nothing short of bad-asses. Alexander & Harald (rold?) Hadraada, to name a couple, were amazing characters. (I think HH was part of the Varangian guard. Gotta luv them Byzies.) I remember Julius Caesar being an athelete as well, but I'm not sure if he was a formidable combatant.
-Jeff
I agree with Lyrax. There is no reason whatsoever that he should be an elite fighter. On the other hand, I think he should be a real kickass sorcerer. Afterall, he needs to be more powerful than any sorcerer to keep them in line.
So he is probably a master demagog, leader and sorcerer. And if he is so powerful, then I think he might look down on mere metal weapons.
Quote from: JaifI would like to point out, though, that many historical leaders, especially in ancient and medieval times, were nothing short of bad-asses. Alexander & Harald (rold?) Hadraada, to name a couple, were amazing characters. (I think HH was part of the Varangian guard. Gotta luv them Byzies.) I remember Julius Caesar being an athelete as well, but I'm not sure if he was a formidable combatant.
That's Harald Hardrada (meaning Hard-ruler). And his is a great story.
He was actually captian of the Varagian guard for a while fightiong on the Greek isles and all across Asia Minor. If ever there was a template for Conan, it was this guy. He got mixed up in all manner of intrigue at the byzantine court which eventually involved him looting it and leaving for safer territory to the North (afer blinding the current emperor, IIRC). He passes through Novgorod (thirteenth Warrior, anyone?) and ends up in Norway. Anyhow, he ends up working as a mercenary for the current King of Norway, and somehow ends up inheriting the throne due to all the loot he's got. He fights for a while with the more legitimate ruler of Denmark, and finally sets his eyes on the throne of England.
He links up with Tostig, the brother of Harold (with an O, hence the constant confusion) tbe King of England. Tostig is the Earl of Northmberland, and wants the throne as well. Oh, and he's gotten the Norman duke, William to come along for the ride as well (just so happens they all three have a claim on the throne). Anyway, the Vikings pack 9000 men on 300 boats and sail to England, only to be encountered by the entire English army at York. They are massacred at the battle of Stamford Bridge, and Harald Hardrada is killed (legendarily, he or some other berserker defends the bridge singlehandedly killing some seventy men or something like that before being brought down by bowfire).
Anyway, the English army is forced to march all the way across England to meet with the Norman invaders before they can get to London. Despite the hike, they arrive in remarkably good shape. The battle of Hastings is fought, and Harold is (possibly apocryphally, again) shot through the eye by some lucky Norman, and the rest...as they say...is history.
Mike
Quote from: MokkurkalfeI agree with Lyrax. There is no reason whatsoever that he should be an elite fighter. On the other hand, I think he should be a real kickass sorcerer. Afterall, he needs to be more powerful than any sorcerer to keep them in line.
So he is probably a master demagog, leader and sorcerer. And if he is so powerful, then I think he might look down on mere metal weapons.
Hmm. I normally hate game fiction and am wary of being guilty of writing it but if I get a chance I will write up "Uglub and the choosing of the nine" in a few days.
I do havea reason for making Uggie a great warrior and wizard both. I promise it is not just to "make him uber" His polymath like compotence is very much a part of who he is.
As far as his Council of Nine, well I will get to them too.
BTW How did you guys like "The Hand" I figure those guys are elite fighters and nothing else. As befits the world they are in they aren't bedecked in magic items. I figure it is possible to harden armor with magic or to make blades sharp and strong but I also realize the combination of scultpture, growth and vison you use to do it isn't that easy
My guess "Spell of the Blade of Awe" is something like this
Spell of the Blade of Awe
Spell of Three
CTN 7 (formalized)- casting time 70seconds
T1, R1, V1, D0, L5
Vagaries: Growth3, Sculptue3, Vision3
Instantaneous
Cast on a fine weapon this spell changes the molecular structure of a sword or other edged weapon to allow for a blade that is both impossibly sharp and strong.
The weapons ATN is reduced by 2 for the weapon quality and damage is increased by 2 because of the ease the weapon has in cutting though flesh or armor.
Note that these weapons are pretty rare as for most casters they require a spell pool of around 20 to cast without much risk of aging.
I figure the Uglub himself, The Council of Nine and a handfull of the most imporatant officers in the Hand may have one.
The rest of The Hand proabably has high quality weapons (reduce atn or dtn by2)
Quote from: AceMy guess "Spell of the Blade of Awe" is something like this
Spell of the Blade of Awe
Spell of Three
CTN 7 (formalized)- casting time 70seconds
T1, R1, V1, D0, L5
Vagaries: Growth3, Sculptue3, Vision3
Instantaneous
Cast on a fine weapon this spell changes the molecular structure of a sword or other edged weapon to allow for a blade that is both impossibly sharp and strong.
The weapons ATN is reduced by 2 for the weapon quality and damage is increased by 2 because of the ease the weapon has in cutting though flesh or armor.
Note that these weapons are pretty rare as for most casters they require a spell pool of around 20 to cast without much risk of aging.
Hmm... I think you mean CTN6, dont you? 1+1+1+(3+1+1) = 8, less 2 because it's formalised.
Other than that, looks good to me, although extremely powerful. I guess that's the point of magic in tRoS really, but still.. a CTN6 spell can be relatively easily cast with no aging with a pool of 14 or so dice, not difficult for a spell of three where you get your SP plus Art, and you can always drop the CTN with gestures and/or chanting etc.
I guess IMO tRoS magic is the "other type" as outlined by Jake the other day - I would require a duration component for this spell, and at the end of the duration the metal returns to what it was before, unless you want to spend a point of SP to make it permanent. Your milage may vary of course, I just think magic is powerful enough without making it even easier, so in my games all magical effects try to reverse themselves eventually to return to the "status quo" unless some portion of the mages life force is used to "tie off reality" and make them permanent.
On top of all that, -2 ATN and +2 damage seems overly powerful to me, I would probably make it -1/+1 instead, that's still a MASSIVE bonus.
Brian.
I still want to see more alternate stats for ol' Uggie, but I'm also very curious as to what you all think his History is. The Hardarad bit got me thinking on "what is Uglub's History?" It' left pretty ambiguous in the book (intentionally). I've got my own ideas, of course, but many of yours are more fun. Spice of life, I guess.
Jake
Quote from: BrianLQuote from: AceMy guess "Spell of the Blade of Awe" is something like this
Spell of the Blade of Awe
Spell of Three
CTN 7 (formalized)- casting time 70seconds
T1, R1, V1, D0, L5
Vagaries: Growth3, Sculptue3, Vision3
Instantaneous
Cast on a fine weapon this spell changes the molecular structure of a sword or other edged weapon to allow for a blade that is both impossibly sharp and strong.
The weapons ATN is reduced by 2 for the weapon quality and damage is increased by 2 because of the ease the weapon has in cutting though flesh or armor.
Note that these weapons are pretty rare as for most casters they require a spell pool of around 20 to cast without much risk of aging.
Hmm... I think you mean CTN6, dont you? 1+1+1+(3+1+1) = 8, less 2 because it's formalised.
Other than that, looks good to me, although extremely powerful. I guess that's the point of magic in tRoS really, but still.. a CTN6 spell can be relatively easily cast with no aging with a pool of 14 or so dice, not difficult for a spell of three where you get your SP plus Art, and you can always drop the CTN with gestures and/or chanting etc.
I guess IMO tRoS magic is the "other type" as outlined by Jake the other day - I would require a duration component for this spell, and at the end of the duration the metal returns to what it was before, unless you want to spend a point of SP to make it permanent. Your milage may vary of course, I just think magic is powerful enough without making it even easier, so in my games all magical effects try to reverse themselves eventually to return to the "status quo" unless some portion of the mages life force is used to "tie off reality" and make them permanent.
On top of all that, -2 ATN and +2 damage seems overly powerful to me, I would probably make it -1/+1 instead, that's still a MASSIVE bonus.
Brian.
DOH I miscalculated the CTN by 1, Ah well...
As for the duration of the spell if you look at the requirements of the spell they are pretty sever, 3 seperate vagaries at maximum level. IMO thats pretty high. The reason I have it as it does is because it is rearranging the molecular strucute of the blade into a near perfect form.
Basically you take the Weyerth equivilant of Wootz steel, magically and Instantly fold it with force and efficiency that even a modern metal press couldn't do.
When completed the weapon will be perfectly strong and flexible and have a nearly unbreakable edge.
It slices it dices just look at that tomato, you could cut plate armor with it but you wouldn't want to :)
Also a standard "high quality weapon" reduces ATN by 1 automatically. So the spell isn't quite as bad as it seems.
Quote from: AceBasically you take the Weyerth equivilant of Wootz steel, magically and Instantly fold it with force and efficiency that even a modern metal press couldn't do.
When completed the weapon will be perfectly strong and flexible and have a nearly unbreakable edge.
It slices it dices just look at that tomato, you could cut plate armor with it but you wouldn't want to :)
Also a standard "high quality weapon" reduces ATN by 1 automatically. So the spell isn't quite as bad as it seems.
All good points. As a GM, however, I wince at the possibility that a starting mage (ok, 9 points of vagaries is high, but not completely unlikely) could spend a day per character casting this spell as a ritual, using gestures, chanting, meditation etc, basically guaranteeing success and no aging, and suddenly every character in the party has a -2ATN, +2 Damage sword permanently.
Power gaming or not, why WOULDN'T they do it. That makes a 2-handed longsword ATN4 for cutting attacks, and doing Str+4+successes damage. It's just too good. Make it not permanent, and suddenly it's not quite as cushy (but still very nice).
All IMO and YMMV of course.
Brian.
Quote from: BrianLQuote from: AceBasically you take the Weyerth equivilant of Wootz steel, magically and Instantly fold it with force and efficiency that even a modern metal press couldn't do.
When completed the weapon will be perfectly strong and flexible and have a nearly unbreakable edge.
It slices it dices just look at that tomato, you could cut plate armor with it but you wouldn't want to :)
Also a standard "high quality weapon" reduces ATN by 1 automatically. So the spell isn't quite as bad as it seems.
All good points. As a GM, however, I wince at the possibility that a starting mage (ok, 9 points of vagaries is high, but not completely unlikely) could spend a day per character casting this spell as a ritual, using gestures, chanting, meditation etc, basically guaranteeing success and no aging, and suddenly every character in the party has a -2ATN, +2 Damage sword permanently.
Power gaming or not, why WOULDN'T they do it. That makes a 2-handed longsword ATN4 for cutting attacks, and doing Str+4+successes damage. It's just too good. Make it not permanent, and suddenly it's not quite as cushy (but still very nice).
All IMO and YMMV of course.
Brian.
I understand how you feel about that, there is always "Munchkin Bait" fear OTOH how many Sorcerers are there, 1 per 100, 000 folks?
A lot of them don't have the talent to pull of a spell like that if the players are openminded/lucky enough to have a Sorcerer friend than they deserve what advantage they can get.
I can see making the spell "Semi Permenant" though, when the weapons get worn, beat up, nicked it loses some of the bonus. That might work pretty well
Just to stir the pot here is the Armor version of the spell
Armor of Champions
Spell of Three
CTN 6 (formalized)- casting time 70seconds
T1, R1, V1, D0, L5
Vagaries: Growth3, Sculpture3, Vision3
Instantaneous
Cast on plate armor this spell changes the molecular structure of the metal to allow the steel to become both astoundingly strong and flexible as it molds to the wearer.
The intended wearer of the armor must be present and wearing the armor at the time of casting .
The weapons AV is increased by 2 and the cp loss is decreased by1 over any bonus due to armor construction and materials
First order of business: That spell. Think about it. Either the sorceror would have to "hold" the spell (temporarily losing dice), would have to give it a duration (raising CTN drastically) or would have to settle for an instantaneous version. The problem with the instantaneous version, as I see it, is that the blade would (very) quickly lose its superior sharpness through normal wear and tear (of transporting the weapon and such). Also, such a weapon might be impossible to keep inside a sheath, as it would slice its way out. That's an interesting roleplaying challenge, especially with, say, a greatsword.
Also, the bonus of -2/+2 is WAY too much. Perhaps a -1 across the TN board and a +1 to thrusting damage (still a massive bonus, but much less so) would be in order.
Second: The "Hand" units. Shweet, but I think you could go much further with this, and blend it into warrior ranks. Arm might designate a deadly swordsmaster, who has risen to the top by much bloodshed in battlefields and dueling fields, whereas the nail would be the title given to the wimp recruited yesterday. Play with it.
Stats for Uglub, as I see it:
Str: 5
AG: 6
TO: 5
EN: 5
HT: 4
WP: 7
WT: 6
MA: 6
Soc: 8
Per: 6
Skills: Ritualist, Soldier, Courtier at 5 or 6, all "people" skills at SR 2 or 1
Proficiencies: Cut & Thrust, negligible compared to the bodyguards he keeps specifically for such purposes.
Vagaries: all at 3.
SP: 17
Guardians of note: One loyal Wizard, known only as "Grakhnesh." All rolls concerning his betrayal are made with his 6 will power dice at a TN of 4 or less. Rumors abound of his origin, some as outlandish as to say that he is a demon, bound to Uglub's Service. Others say the he was saved from the Inquisition as a boy by Uglub.
This is just my opinion, but I disagree that the sword spell would have to be held. That falls under the "permanent effects" clause to me, though I agree with Lance that +2/-2 is a bit much (in which case I might require something like that be held up). But magic is powerful, and there's no reason to start trying to put all kinds of artificial "balances" on it.
Again, that isn't TROS doctrine, it's just my take.
Jake
RE: The -2/+2
I too think the -2/+2 is way out of line. However, I wouldn't mind it being a permanent effect. The way I would handle it is:
a) The sorcerer makes the sword sharper & tougher by removing invisible imperfections from the blade. +1 to damage.
b) The sorcerer tries to change the blade to improve its balance and otherwise customize it for an individual. +1 to damage, sorc rolls a blacksmith roll. If the roll succeeds, then -1 TN for that individual. If the roll fails, nothing. If the roll is fumbled, then the sword is ruined somehow. In case of failure, no further attempts by that sorcerer are allowed until the blacksmith skill increases. For fumbles, no sorcerer can attempt to fix the sword, it needs to be melted down.
c) A sword effected by (a) is a nice sword, and any decent smith will recognize it on inspection and ask questions (like where it was bought, who forged it, etc..) A sword affected by (b) would have some other tell-tale effect. For example, it's been changed so much that it's very obvious that nobody could forge such a sword: it's very shape is impossible to acheive with medieval techniques. That sword's going to draw attention.
In summary, I'd lesson the bonuses, add an element of skill & risk, and leave side-effects rather than just a free "-1/+1".
RE: Uggie the Barbarian
Uggie is drawn as a pretty tough guy on pg 158. I know it's not canon, but it is a source.
RE: Old Harald
Thanks for the HH rehash. I remember reading his story before, but couldn't remember the cool details. Great ol' Alex was also a badass, btw. Of course, punishing his troops by marching them through a desert wasn't the brightest move. <g>
-Jeff
P.S. There are many other side-effects possible. What if the change that makes the sword more useful also makes it more likely to break? The sword breaks if the owner fumbles, or some such.
P.P.S. When I say "any decent smith will ask", I don't mean that literally. It's the type of thing that a professional is likely to notice, and be curious about.
Now this is really gonna get you guys. The winged fellow on p. 124...that's Sengir, Uglub's junior. In fact, if you look through the book a bit, there are more shots of Uglub and Sengir than any other one person (with the exception of a guy named Gambin, who appears alot in Book 6, I think). Chew on that for a while.
Jake
Quote from: JaifRE: The -2/+2
I too think the -2/+2 is way out of line. However, I wouldn't mind it being a permanent effect. The way I would handle it is:
a) The sorcerer makes the sword sharper & tougher by removing invisible imperfections from the blade. +1 to damage.
b) The sorcerer tries to change the blade to improve its balance and otherwise customize it for an individual. +1 to damage, sorc rolls a blacksmith roll. If the roll succeeds, then -1 TN for that individual. If the roll fails, nothing. If the roll is fumbled, then the sword is ruined somehow. In case of failure, no further attempts by that sorcerer are allowed until the blacksmith skill increases. For fumbles, no sorcerer can attempt to fix the sword, it needs to be melted down.
c) A sword effected by (a) is a nice sword, and any decent smith will recognize it on inspection and ask questions (like where it was bought, who forged it, etc..) A sword affected by (b) would have some other tell-tale effect. For example, it's been changed so much that it's very obvious that nobody could forge such a sword: it's very shape is impossible to acheive with medieval techniques. That sword's going to draw attention.
In summary, I'd lesson the bonuses, add an element of skill & risk, and leave side-effects rather than just a free "-1/+1".
-Jeff
P.
You guys are thinking game balance a little too much IMO.
Riddle of Steel magic is really powerfull more so than any systen except Mage IMO
After all a begining Sorcerer can, with a little risk, force most people to kill themself with a short phrase!
And the spell to do it is a spell of one, CTN7 Suicide (page 133) and it requires only a single vagary at 2!
The reason I have the spell written with the vision vagary at 3 is because allows the caster to "know" when the sword is ready and to work on the molecular level.
This spell shouldn't be thought of as "Create +1 weapon" or "Bladesharp" but as forge molecularly perfect sword.
The sword created by that magic really is utterly perfect as a steel wepon can be. . The molecular configuration of the edge and blade makes it really difficult to blunt and allows the sword to retain that sharpness while cleaving other material (like normal steel).
I would guess the effect is "semi permanent". Even a monomolecular blade may wear someday. In that case recast the spell every 3-5 years or so if it is used heavily.
I do agree with you Jaif that the sword would attract a bit of attention of flashed about or shown off but if the PC's are discrete no one need know it is forged by magic.
BTW I don't figure the bonuses in my spell are cumulative with workmanship BTW.
QuoteYou guys are thinking game balance a little too much IMO.
Guilty as charged. I keep hearing the words "buff" and "debuff" running around my noggin. However, that's not the primary cause for my concern.
It's this: you're using "molecular composition" as a vague catch-all for adding a bunch of bonuses to a weapon, and I don't think it works quite that way. A rapier has a TN of 5 not because of superior composition, but because it's shape and weight are a great design. Sure, making it tougher's gonna help, but I don't think the TN is really going to be affected.
In fact, I would argue that once you get a weapon to a certain size, quality, etc, then there isn't much more you can do to increase its effectiveness in a single combat. Is it sharp enough to do the job? Then that's all you need.
Finally, I think you missed one point I made. It's one thing to sharpen an edge; it's another to design a sword that has a superior TN. That's why I want my sorc to be a swordsmith if he tries that. Sure, he can remove imperfections and create a strong steel sword, but designing it to be easier to use is a different task, and requires skill.
-Jeff
Quote from: JaifQuoteYou guys are thinking game balance a little too much IMO.
Guilty as charged. I keep hearing the words "buff" and "debuff" running around my noggin. However, that's not the primary cause for my concern.
It's this: you're using "molecular composition" as a vague catch-all for adding a bunch of bonuses to a weapon, and I don't think it works quite that way. A rapier has a TN of 5 not because of superior composition, but because it's shape and weight are a great design. Sure, making it tougher's gonna help, but I don't think the TN is really going to be affected.
In fact, I would argue that once you get a weapon to a certain size, quality, etc, then there isn't much more you can do to increase its effectiveness in a single combat. Is it sharp enough to do the job? Then that's all you need.
Finally, I think you missed one point I made. It's one thing to sharpen an edge; it's another to design a sword that has a superior TN. That's why I want my sorc to be a swordsmith if he tries that. Sure, he can remove imperfections and create a strong steel sword, but designing it to be easier to use is a different task, and requires skill.
-Jeff
I definetly appreciate the requirement that the Sorcerer be a swordsmith. This makes a good deal of sense to me as well.
BTW I was imagining this spell gives the weapon an edge as sharp as a diamond knife and nearly unbreakable that wht I have the bonuses as they are
Maybe -2 on atn is a little much for just the one spell though
What you suggested might work, the spell could be cast twice each giving +1 to damege.
the imperfection removal you suggested giving +1 damage. This requires no skill.
A second casting can change the metal to something incredibly flexible and sharp giving +1, but to cast this the user must be a smith
If you want a better balanced weapon you would need a spell like "Blade and Hand in accord" which reduces atn by 1
To exceed the damage as listed make the spell a Ritual spell and a movement component. This would allow you to make "Monomolecular" style blades. with a movement vagary you could make blades that modern science could not.
Stuff like Unbreakable swords with an edge as sharp as a diamond knife and neat stuff like that.
I'm glad that you brought up the issue of flexibility. One of the things that separate good european swords (I'm not talking about wall-hanger trash) from katanas and the like is the blade geometry and flexibility issue. Euro swords were very flexible, making them not only resilient but also good for parrying and defense. Katana's are stiff, with soft metal along the false to help absorb shock, but not flexible. They have incredibly sharp blades (overkill against flesh, in truth), but are brittle compared to a Euro sword. So if you've got this legendarily hard, sharp edge you're also going to have to worry about it's ATN. Maybe it won't be brittle due to magic (I doubt it, but hey, it's magic!), but it will be deficient as a parrying weapon.
Jake
Quote from: Jake NorwoodI'm glad that you brought up the issue of flexibility. One of the things that separate good european swords (I'm not talking about wall-hanger trash) from katanas and the like is the blade geometry and flexibility issue. Euro swords were very flexible, making them not only resilient but also good for parrying and defense. Katana's are stiff, with soft metal along the false to help absorb shock, but not flexible. They have incredibly sharp blades (overkill against flesh, in truth), but are brittle compared to a Euro sword. So if you've got this legendarily hard, sharp edge you're also going to have to worry about it's ATN. Maybe it won't be brittle due to magic (I doubt it, but hey, it's magic!), but it will be deficient as a parrying weapon.
Jake
Good point Jake. I am afraid this thread is on a tangent right now but at least it is interesting :)
I figure with the right vagaries it might be possible to combine super sharp lasting edges with incredible flexibility and get a "super sword" I figure all those vagaries allow molecular rearrangement and essentially you have a "Nano Blade" more or less
In my recent gelure campaign we had a noble with estates in farrenshire who- how shall I put it, recently irked and offended Uggie, it has since turned ugly. heres how our campaign has treated uggie so far.
Uglub has been a far toss from many of the discriptions on this post so far as although a powerful mage and leader, he prefered to work in the back drop through cunning schemes, plans and backstabbing. Mostly working by proxy through henchmen. Just for fun we made one of the henchman a brother of one of the main PC's and weve had him continously pestering the party, "testing" them to see if they are worth recruiting.
Another parrellel that might fit our image of Uglubian gelure is pre krystal nacht Hitlerian Germany. Booming economy, health and prosperity at hidden costs. Uggie is charismatic and militaristic and generally treats his people well, but the ambition drives him at all costs pushing him to heinous acts and possibly insanity.
We also played with the idea of having him be not a decendent of the nine but one OF the original nine. Bidding his time and then siezing power after all these years. We even considered having ALL the original nine be scattered around Weyrth under the idea that they have always been in the backdrop of weyrths history struggling to take over and control the scraps after the climactic battle between the betrayer and Xanar. We still havent decided on which side the nine fought however which has stalled the development of this idea.
We have not been playing with uglub as the central villain but as the backdrop behind the antagonists that continue to interfere with the pc's. I find it is more usefull that way.
The only request i have is for more info on the council and the henchman that would work for Uglub. Weve been borrowing from stock villains and henchman from other sources lately and suggestions would be much welcome.
I will see what I can do about the council stats and stuff. I am just a little busy with some stuff right now.
Just to start
Stats for standard Gelure'n Infantry
Temporal 4 (St, Ag 5)
Mental 4 (Per5, Soc3, Wits 5)
Reflex 5
Move 7
CP 10-12
MP 10-12
Chain Shirt
Leather Legs
Leather Arms
Pot Helmet
Small Shield
Cut and Thrust Sword
Javelins
Or if missle troop
Drop Shield
Drop Cut and Thrust Sword
Drop Javelins
Add Shortbow
Quiver 60 Arrows
Shortsword
Thats a basic Gelure Infantryman. For skills add Soldier (all skills at -1) and one other package
Uglubs Knights (these are not members of the Hand, just officer grade soldiers)
Temporal 5 (AG6, EN4, HT4 )
Mental 4 (Wits 5)
Relex 5
Move 7
CP15
MP10
Breast and Back Plate
Chain Legs
Chain Arms
Coif
Pot Helmet
War Horse with Chain barding (4)
Large Shield
Light Lance
Javelins (3)
Hand weapon (varies)
Skill packages
Soldier (all skills at -1)
possibly Courtier
And yes Gelure troops are well equiped and well trained. What they lack is numbers......
If you are facing conscripted regulars just use the warrior template from TROS.
Seems this thread has slowed down a bit. Well, here's my opinion on who and what Uglub is:
Emperor Uglub
Real Name: Raeyn Fahthran
Temporal
ST 7
AG 7
TO 5
EN 7
HT 10
Mental
WP 10
WT 8
MA 9
SOC 10
PER 7
Spiritual
Luck 4
Drive (conquest) 5
Passion (hatred of the Fey) 5
Destiny (create an Empire greater than the Xanarian Empire at its peak) 5
Derived
Reflex 7
Aim 7
Knockdown 7
Knockout 10
Move 10
Magical
Kaa 12
Form 7
Art 7
Discipline 8
Draw 8
Sorcery Pool 25 (31 with the Talismans)
Gifts
Gift of the Ancients
3 Major Talismans
Flaws
Bad Reputation (major - at least outside of Gelure)
Overconfident (major)
Bad Temper (minor)
Skills
most lanuages at 5
all skills from woodsman/ranger, ritualist and courtier at 5 or 6
Proficiences
All vagaries at 3
Only one or two weapon styles at 7-9...relies mostly on magic
Spells
Several dozen mastered and formulated, including many of his own design.
Gear
Anything he wants in normal gear
Numerous Magical/enchanted items
Now, I know what you must be thinking after reading that. Something along the lines of "What in the world is Dave smoking?" Well, now comes the fun part where I tell you what I think the history of Uglub is...
Raeyn Fahthran is a relatively young Fey...only a century and a half. He was born in the Frostbite Mountains among the Fey that life there. Like them his skin is dark, and his hair a stark white. It was obvious from the beginning that Raeyn had been gifted with immense magical talent, and was trained intensively by the Elders of the Fey court to one day assume a position of leadership among them.
After more than half a century of this life, a halfling by the name of Ardon Breer was permitted to visit the Court. Raeyn and Ardon formed an immediate friendship. Raeyn convinced the Elders to allow Ardon to stay with the Court longer than planned, but ultimately he was asked to leave. And when he did, Raeyn went with him.
The two of them adventured together for many years. They even traveled through Stahl, where they used the natural Fey proficiency with the Glamour vagary to disguise their appearance in order to travel among humans without being noticed (much).
They actually befriended several young and adventerous Stahlnish nobles, with whom they adventured and had many friendly debates about the realities of magic and the supernatural. While Raeyn and Ardon never conceded that magic did not exist, Raeyn eventually came to believe a slightly twisted version of Stahlnish athiesm (spelling?).
The Fey believe that their souls are eternal...that when a Fey dies, that same soul is eventually reborn as another Fey. The only problem is that this hasn't been happening for the last 800 years (page 196). A much smaller number of births have been taking place during that time that should have.
So Raeyn rejects this idea, and adopts the philosophy of "Every man...or Fey...for himself." While Ardon doesn't accept this, and debates it often with Raeyn, they remain friends. Raeyn, as most people do when they come to this kind of epiphany, decides to share it with the Fey of the region.
While he meets with some success with the younger members of his race, he is condemned and banished from Fey society for his heretical beliefs. The Elders hoped he would use this time of isolation to reconsider his beliefs. Raeyn hoped that those who had accepted his beliefs would either follow him, or be banished as well. Neither happened.
While Ardon stayed in Stahl for several more years to try and mend the growing differences between the older and younger Fey, Raeyn disappeared.
After another fifty years, he resurfaced again, and was determined to destroy the Court that had banished. Ardon was forced to battle with Raeyn. Both survived and were badly weakened, but their friendship was forever destroyed. Again Raeyn disappeared from sight.
Now he has returned again, now calling himself Uglub (he believes that magic will have a lesser effect on him if people do not know his real name). He is determined to destroy the Fey for their treatment of him, and has managed to nearly kill or drive out all of the Fey that had once lived in Gelure.
Not only is he amassing a large conventional and army supported by the Gifted that have come under his banner, he is working with several groups of unseelie to gain their support for invasions of the surrounding countries. Uglub imagines that a horde of goblins, trolls, vampires and the like would make an invasion of certain countries much easier.
He doesn't actually believe that he is the Dark Betrayer, but he thinks the image fits well, and inspires the kind of awe and fear in his followers that he wants...as well as simple fear in his enemies.
His son, Sengir, is the result of a brief marriage to an winged demoness. It is not known where she is or what happened to her after the marriage. Sengir is even more obsessed with the destruction of the Fey than his father.
Absolutely no Fey are safe from Uglub, even those who still reject the eternal nature of the Fey soul. They had their chance, and he will not give them a second one.
He has been in contact with Oujha, the last of the Nine, and while not concrete alliance or agreement of support has been made between them, they have a careful 'friendship' (if anyone like these two people can ever said to actually have friends.....). Both are rather curious about the other and would like to see where the current course of events leads.
Uglub thinks that humans are quite interesting tools. They may well help him to accomplish his goals of genocide, and in the meantime leading them to world conquest seems like quite an entertaining diversion.
He is very professional and intelligent about his plans. If you've never read the Evil Overlord list (http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html but ignore numbers 18 and 19 :P), you should....because that's Uglub.
OK.....anyone have anything to say about my interpretation?
Quote from: The_FeySeems this thread has slowed down a bit. Well, here's my opinion on who and what Uglub is:
Emperor Uglub
Real Name: Raeyn Fahthran
Temporal
ST 7
AG 7
TO 5
EN 7
HT 10
Mental
WP 10
WT 8
MA 9
SOC 10
PER 7
Spiritual
Luck 4
Drive (conquest) 5
Passion (hatred of the Fey) 5
Destiny (create an Empire greater than the Xanarian Empire at its peak) 5
Derived
Reflex 7
Aim 7
Knockdown 7
Knockout 10
Move 10
Magical
Kaa 12
Form 7
Art 7
Discipline 8
Draw 8
Sorcery Pool 25 (31 with the Talismans)
Gifts
Gift of the Ancients
3 Major Talismans
Flaws
Bad Reputation (major - at least outside of Gelure)
Overconfident (major)
Bad Temper (minor)
Skills
most lanuages at 5
all skills from woodsman/ranger, ritualist and courtier at 5 or 6
Proficiences
All vagaries at 3
Only one or two weapon styles at 7-9...relies mostly on magic
Spells
Several dozen mastered and formulated, including many of his own design.
Gear
Anything he wants in normal gear
Numerous Magical/enchanted items
Now, I know what you must be thinking after reading that. Something along the lines of "What in the world is Dave smoking?" Well, now comes the fun part where I tell you what I think the history of Uglub is...
Raeyn Fahthran is a relatively young Fey...only a century and a half. He was born in the Frostbite Mountains among the Fey that life there. Like them his skin is dark, and his hair a stark white. It was obvious from the beginning that Raeyn had been gifted with immense magical talent, and was trained intensively by the Elders of the Fey court to one day assume a position of leadership among them.
After more than half a century of this life, a halfling by the name of Ardon Breer was permitted to visit the Court. Raeyn and Ardon formed an immediate friendship. Raeyn convinced the Elders to allow Ardon to stay with the Court longer than planned, but ultimately he was asked to leave. And when he did, Raeyn went with him.
The two of them adventured together for many years. They even traveled through Stahl, where they used the natural Fey proficiency with the Glamour vagary to disguise their appearance in order to travel among humans without being noticed (much).
They actually befriended several young and adventerous Stahlnish nobles, with whom they adventured and had many friendly debates about the realities of magic and the supernatural. While Raeyn and Ardon never conceded that magic did not exist, Raeyn eventually came to believe a slightly twisted version of Stahlnish athiesm (spelling?).
The Fey believe that their souls are eternal...that when a Fey dies, that same soul is eventually reborn as another Fey. The only problem is that this hasn't been happening for the last 800 years (page 196). A much smaller number of births have been taking place during that time that should have.
So Raeyn rejects this idea, and adopts the philosophy of "Every man...or Fey...for himself." While Ardon doesn't accept this, and debates it often with Raeyn, they remain friends. Raeyn, as most people do when they come to this kind of epiphany, decides to share it with the Fey of the region.
While he meets with some success with the younger members of his race, he is condemned and banished from Fey society for his heretical beliefs. The Elders hoped he would use this time of isolation to reconsider his beliefs. Raeyn hoped that those who had accepted his beliefs would either follow him, or be banished as well. Neither happened.
While Ardon stayed in Stahl for several more years to try and mend the growing differences between the older and younger Fey, Raeyn disappeared.
After another fifty years, he resurfaced again, and was determined to destroy the Court that had banished. Ardon was forced to battle with Raeyn. Both survived and were badly weakened, but their friendship was forever destroyed. Again Raeyn disappeared from sight.
Now he has returned again, now calling himself Uglub (he believes that magic will have a lesser effect on him if people do not know his real name). He is determined to destroy the Fey for their treatment of him, and has managed to nearly kill or drive out all of the Fey that had once lived in Gelure.
Not only is he amassing a large conventional and army supported by the Gifted that have come under his banner, he is working with several groups of unseelie to gain their support for invasions of the surrounding countries. Uglub imagines that a horde of goblins, trolls, vampires and the like would make an invasion of certain countries much easier.
He doesn't actually believe that he is the Dark Betrayer, but he thinks the image fits well, and inspires the kind of awe and fear in his followers that he wants...as well as simple fear in his enemies.
His son, Sengir, is the result of a brief marriage to an winged demoness. It is not known where she is or what happened to her after the marriage. Sengir is even more obsessed with the destruction of the Fey than his father.
Absolutely no Fey are safe from Uglub, even those who still reject the eternal nature of the Fey soul. They had their chance, and he will not give them a second one.
He has been in contact with Oujha, the last of the Nine, and while not concrete alliance or agreement of support has been made between them, they have a careful 'friendship' (if anyone like these two people can ever said to actually have friends.....). Both are rather curious about the other and would like to see where the current course of events leads.
Uglub thinks that humans are quite interesting tools. They may well help him to accomplish his goals of genocide, and in the meantime leading them to world conquest seems like quite an entertaining diversion.
He is very professional and intelligent about his plans. If you've never read the Evil Overlord list (http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html but ignore numbers 18 and 19 :P), you should....because that's Uglub.
OK.....anyone have anything to say about my interpretation?
Oh, so THAT's the Evil Overlord List I've heard so much about. haha! I can definately see Uglub that way.
I do have a couple of nitpicks, though.
1) Your Uglub's Fey. If he hates all Fey, even converts...
2) What about Half-Fey? He clearly has no problem with UnSeelie, but his children would either be full-Fey or Half-Fey. That being the case, I would think #s 18 and 19 would be rigorously enforced.
One of my characters is a member of Uglub's Legions of Doom, so I find this question very interesting indeed. :)
Quote from: Bob Richter2) What about Half-Fey? He clearly has no problem with UnSeelie, but his children would either be full-Fey or Half-Fey. That being the case, I would think #s 18 and 19 would be rigorously enforced.
One of my characters is a member of Uglub's Legions of Doom, so I find this question very interesting indeed. :)
Half-Fey are ultimately outcasts from Fey society as well. On page 197 it states that they are never allowed to stay in the same grove/Court in which their parent resides. So I'd say that Uglub views Half-Fey as potential tools--especially if he can convince them to start hating the fact that they are banned from home simply because of a different parentage.
18 & 19 would be rigorously enforced only with other Fey. Uglub does already have a son after all.
Just a note for The_Fey:
Talismans don't increase your sorcery pool, they give you a bonus every time you cast a spell. That's a bit more powerful than you seem to realize.