The Forge Archives

Greetings!

After a long time of dreaming I finally am starting campaing for Nobilis. I have a player group of 2-4 and none have any previous knowledge about Nobilis or it's setting. One has played Amber before, but I have no other experience about Amber than reading few of Zelaznys books so I don't really know if it helps at all. First problem is to make Nobilis less intimidating to players and second is not to do any bad mistakes at the start of the campaing so that they wont come back to haunt me later. Any Nobilis veterans out there? I could really use some good advice and maybe warnings about some typical mistakes that one can do as Hollyhock God.

Preliminary plan is starting the campaing by making ordinary human beings as player characters with their more or less mundane background and ambitions. I'm going to put the characters in the middle of a chancel forming ritual which manifests itself as strange deaths (100 nights and 100 deaths) and phenomena which progress towards the big climax of forming the chancel and enNobling the characters. I plan to make it a sort of horror/murder mystery that escalates into mythic Nobilis campaing. By this I hope to make players form some sort of human personality before they have to think something more godlike and maybe take of some pressure of acting "correctly" as new Nobles.

To take this idea further I chose the place for a new chancel to be a small island in the coast of Ireland. This island consists of village and old (druidic) forest which I intend to turn into somekind of new Avalon if I can sell it to players (I want them to have a lot of control in creating the chancel, it's their home after all). Characters may end up there as tourists, smugglers or maybe their distant relative has died and they are there for their inheritance. Soon they learn that something strange has been happening for some time now (100 days is a long time) and people just keep dying for increasingly strange ways. They have an opportunity to investigate what has been happening and in a side they get familiar with number of interesting local inhabitants which later appear slightly altered as chancels citizens. I think that this could be a really good way for immersing players into the world before everything takes that 1000 league step into the world of myth and wonder.

What do my fellow roleplayers think?

- Jargon

Huh.
Are you telling your players upfront "we're going to be playing Nobilis, but we're going to do this however-many-session mortals game (using different mechanics?) first then move into Nobilis?" How do they feel about that?

If you're thinking about the bait-and-switch (as in: not telling them) I'd strongly recommend against it. Lying to your players is just a bad plan.

So, okay, that aside, here's my advice to Nobilis GMs:

1) Take the group creation process very seriously. In creating the chancel and imperator and their noble's estates, the players are telling you what they want the game to be about. Now, make the game about that. In the last Nobilis game I ran, the players created their Imperator as The Last Angel, the only angel created after The Fall. So we had a game featuring Lilith, a time-travelling pre-fall Eve, etc., etc. If my players had made their Imperator a Dark-imposed imperator focused on art and craft, we'd have had a totally different game. So make the characters first, plot second.

2) Your game will not feel like the book. At its best, AFAIK, Nobilis looks feels and plays more like an adventure/espionage movie than like Borgstrom's writing. Don't think "I want a game like the color fiction," because you're going to be disappointed. Instead, think about "gnostic James Bond."

yrs--
--Ben

Ben's #2 should not be underestimated.  While Borgstrum's writing has many fans its my #1 or #2 reason why I really don't think the game is all that good.  If playing the game doesn't feel like the game's fiction then either a) the game rules are faulty and should have been redesigned or b) the fiction is a total con job.  And ultimately that's what reading the book felt like to me...being totally bait and switched.

I hadn't hit upon "Gnostic James Bond" as what the game really feels like, but I think that's a pretty good summation.  I would have phrased it more like "a Hippie Pagan version of the Justice League", but same general idea.

Well...

Maybe it is a bad idea to start with human aspect, but I desperately need something to help my players get into the game softly. Nobilis seems to be really intimidating to some of my players and it can do real damage to the life expectancy of my campaign. Maybe I gave an impression that the "human start" would be really long, but actually I meant it to be some sort of short series of conversations with different people to make some of the NPCs familiar and few (maybe only one) strange occurrance. I played in my mind with even an encounter with some excrusian or noble that is observing the ritual (perhaps trying to tamper with it). What I mean is that this prelude would entail only one evening of play to give some time for players to get into the character before everything becomes more complicated and more importantly strange for them.

I am well aware that actual roleplaying is not like the books are. I still think that one can profoundly influence the flow of the game by carefully planning few devices that can be used to create certain atmosphere for the game. Anyway, I intend to make the campaign very social interaction oriented and try to keep the focus on intigue. I think that there is great potential for exploring "emotional playing" in a lot of ways, Maybe I am just too optimistic and will be really disappointed, but I can't say that I wasn't warned.

I've read a lot about why Nobilis does not really work, but I still believe that if one is able to set a certain colour to the game the rest handles itself. It is really tough job to make it happen but that is not good enough reason not to take a shot at it. On the other hand I am encouraged by the fact that in another campaign, (indie game called Numen, basicly low-fantasy in Roman empire look-alike) that I am a player in, the gaming goes in a way that could easily be transferred into Nobilis and has the "right feel" about it. Then again, maybe those neat tricks blind players as soon as they learn to use them and it turns to -90 Bond movie.......

- Jargon

I don't think that it's possible to make players like a game that they're not going to like by easing them into it slowly. I think what you need to find is a group of players who are really into the concepts of Nobilis, and just play with those players. If people aren't interested in playing, play a different game with them.

The problem with your scenario is that you're short-cutting the imperator and chancel creation process. This is a big deal and it really drives the game: By short-cutting it you're basically preventing the players from saying what they're interested in doing with the game.

As for the rest, I find that the game is very good, and very much gnostic James Bond: super-powered agents participating in cosmological intrigue. That's awesome, it's fun, and so on. But basically: look to the examples of play and the example campaign in the book, rather than to the fictlets. If you want a game that plays like the fictlets, you need to be playing a totally different game.

yrs--
--Ben

Is there a game that plays like the microfiction in Nobilis? 

I've never played the game, but it sounds to me like one of the major problems with Nobilis, as a game, is that there's really very little guidance on what players actually do in the game.  Given gamer habits, it seems like one would default to "boss gives me a mission, I accomplish mission, fallout from mission returns to haunt me later" type of game, particularly since Nobils sets up a bunch of bad guys to punch in the face.  But I wonder if more self-starting players would have different experiences?

Quote from: Ben Lehman on November 21, 2007, 06:24:26 PM
I don't think that it's possible to make players like a game that they're not going to like by easing them into it slowly. I think what you need to find is a group of players who are really into the concepts of Nobilis, and just play with those players. If people aren't interested in playing, play a different game with them.

Funny enough, this is the  best group for the game I can get and this is the game I want to try as GM. Maybe I will bury the whole project.

- Jargon

Quote from: James_Nostack on November 21, 2007, 07:26:44 PMI've never played the game, but it sounds to me like one of the major problems with Nobilis, as a game, is that there's really very little guidance on what players actually do in the game.

Well, there is in fact a chapter of GM advice dedicated to answering that question: "How to be a Hollyhock God, Part 3: What Do Nobilis Do?", starting on page 49, right after the general game summary. To put it briefly, the chapter is divided into sections on Chancel Management, Personal Projects, Social Activity, Anchor Oversight, Serving Their Estates, Serving Their Code, and Performing Their Duties, with suggested examples of each. Running sundry errands for the Imperator would fall under that last one, for instance.

Quote from: Jargon on November 21, 2007, 05:47:45 PMMaybe it is a bad idea to start with human aspect, but I desperately need something to help my players get into the game softly.

Nope, starting out with a soft landing for beginners isn't a bad notion at all, as long as the group has already bought into the game, and you keep in mind that the system itself in no way supports playing common mortals as PCs. You might be underestimating the freedom of choice that the chargen in Nobilis by default grants to the players, though; but then again, as the final formation of the Chancel can change utterly everything, its original geographical location and earlier features aren't necessarily that significant. However, in the interest of honesty I'd suggest that you inform the others about the barest details of the situation in advance ("you'll all have a chance of becoming a family of demigods in service of an even greater power, charged with defending the Earth from various perils"), and then let them decide what the nature of that "greater power" will be (an angel or a devil or something stranger altogether), as that should inevitably colour the transformation of the region. Check whether they are OK with Arthurian themes and the island setting, run the prelude scenario from the hundred days with suitable omens and low-level challenges (cultists, perhaps, or mythic beasts, or just locals unable to cope with what's happening), and only then, at the moment of the Commencement as the PCs receive their Nobility and the Chancel takes shape around them, complete the mechanical part of the chargen and let the players further define the master and realm of their characters.

If the players haven't already learned much about the universe of Nobilis, don't infodump on them now, either. They don't need to know about Excrucians or Yggdrasil or obscure terminology to begin with. All that can be picked up during the course of actual play: for now, keep the introduction smooth and simple, don't be intimidated by the scope of the game, and have fun.

Hey, GrimGent, do you have any experience playing Nobilis? What was that like? (note I talk about the differences between Chancels etc in my first post.) What leads you to believe that short-cutting Chancel/Imperator/Power creation is a good idea?

yrs--
--Ben

Quote from: Ben Lehman on November 22, 2007, 12:16:57 PMHey, GrimGent, do you have any experience playing Nobilis? What was that like? (note I talk about the differences between Chancels etc in my first post.) What leads you to believe that short-cutting Chancel/Imperator/Power creation is a good idea?

Not "short-cutting": postponing, at least in greater detail. I've been GMing it for a few years now, and every single game I've run for complete newbies has started out with the PCs as more or less mortal, some time before the creation of the Chancel: as it happens, my most recent intro story ended with the Chancelling, while before that the PCs had been semi-Noble "Knights" who were now given the opportunity to either swear their allegiance to the resurrected Imperator (the Angel of the Moon) or to return to their old lives. I've found that this approach makes the setting much easier to digest, as the players initially have a chance to explore it freely from the street level and establish their characters' ties and attitudes to the world at large. The nature of the Imperator is something that you'll want out in the open as soon as possible, admittedly, but such matters as the future features of its realm aren't really all that relevant during the ninety-nine days and one. Those can well wait until later. Even the sample campaign set-up in the book begins with the Magister Ram-Khvastra claiming its place on Earth and choosing a number of people into its service as Inquisitors charged with pursuing traitorous gods and other powerful monsters that threaten the world: there's no harm in letting the players experience a bit of foreshadowing and slow immersion from the days before Ram-Khvastra's actual arrival.

(Also, I draw inspiration from the sidebar nanofiction all the time, and love to build on the material in the book. The first game I ever ran involved a Deceiver's plan to lure the Sun into forsaking her one true love so that the fifth wind from her heart would burn away the Earth, but it all started out humbly enough with the PCs being drawn into investigating why people were dying in their sleep all over Chicago, which in turn led them to rescue Arikel who had been abducted by a corrupted cult of the Unilluminated under the Excrucian's orders.)

Hi, Jargon!  I don't think there's anything wrong with starting out as mortals, as long as the players are aware that their guys will be powering up to godlike status at some point.  I think Ben's comments are very accurate, based on my experience. 

I don't  think there's anything wrong with suggesting a theme.  I've played some very interesting games of Nobilis where the characters were created around a theme such as "horror" or "space opera" or "film noir", and it didn't seem unduly constraining.  The default for Nobilis, though, seems to be a disparate bunch of unrelated Estates which nonetheless come together in an original way to inspire an Imperator and Chancel.  I think the game works well either way, but I would use a light hand in suggesting particular content to the players as they may otherwise feel that this is the one true way to play Nobilis, and lose interest if that isn't the way for them. 

Here are the things I find most helpful when GM'ing Nobilis, in no particular order:
1) the chargen and communal creation of Imperator and Chancel gives you a lot of flags for things people are interested in, and gets the players to buy in to the imaginary world. 

2) The player-characters are so individual and so empowered that you can throw a challenge at them without worrying too much how they will handle it -- with any luck, they'll come up with something cooler than you could have imagined, which will cause them further complications that you can build on. 

3) The structure of all the PC's being members of a Familia serving a single Imperator makes it very natural and organic for them to both work together and to have conflict.  I like to play up the sibling rivalry aspect of the Nobilis. 

4) There's a huge but sketchily detailed setting for the game; you can very easily take whichever parts seem interesting or fitting and foreground them, and it is trivially easy to graft on elements from your own imagination, legend, or even other gaming sources.  It's a classic "many worlds" kind of setting.

5) The existence of many possible allies and antagonists, including the Cammora, the Excrucians, and rival Nobles, makes the setting rich in potential for intrigue and interesting NPC's.  The fact that the Nobles are bound by a code which, for example, doesn't allow them to attack an otherwise inoffensive Excrucian that they might meet at a dinner party, makes things much more interesting than a simple smack-down.  The color that goes along with this, with the quasi-feudal flavor of rival courts and hospitality rules, pushes all kinds of geeky buttons for me and, usually, for my players as well.

6) Every Noble character has a past life prior to becoming Noble, and the differing relationships of the Nobles to their less glorious pasts can be good fodder for drama.  Sometimes, you can capture a bit of the Jack Kirby-esque alienation and regret that the superman feels for the mere mortals that he protects, envies, and scorns... again, satisfying stuff. 

I would also encourage you, if you have the time, to read some actual plays on various forums and on the Nobilis mailing list; this may give you a better feeling for the ways this very remarkable game can be played. 

I have read a lot of different game logs from other players campaigns and it has really enlightened me of many things that I want to do differently. It is an interesting challenge to try to create something different from other games we have played.

Control seems to be a big issue in this discussion and I seem to differ on this with my advisors. I think that I must set some boundaries for new players just because if I dont do it their creativity will bog down in front of infinite possibilities. Like children they need some boundaries that make them feel safe enough to grow to the mature potential of the game. No one really minds if I use my power as a GM to choose the starting place (island at the coast of Ireland) because it is something that is expected from me. That is just what happens in all the otherother games.

Players know that they are starting to play Nobilis. I have given them some guidelines and links from which they can find some additional information about the world and the system. They know that they start as humans and that the game will start from their arrival to a small island at the coast of Ireland. I have informed that before first session I have to know what domain are they interested and what kind of Imperator they would want as their boss (meaning Imperators affiliation which gives me a lot of information about what kind of colour they want for the campaign). That is all I need to start the campaign.

Plan is to play short introduction to the island and number of strange phenomena and the session is supposed to end in Commencement. I use introduction because I want to make players get in touch with their characters human side first and to give them something to work on after their Commencement. What I dont want is a bunch of superheroes galloping around smashing bad guys everywhere in Marvel comic style. I try to create an atmosphere of confusion that in play turns into deep playing with a lot of different moral dilemmas spiced with all the Game of Flowers I can put in.

And for all the "what the players want" talk; I am not that kind of person that makes his games to be straight (easily digested) entertainment. I am not going to serve players their old and boring favourite food, I want to give them something different, a new experience. Nobilis gives me all the means to do just that. I know that players dont even know what they really want in this game. After first campaign things are of course very different.

If I make the campaign something I like  and that I commit myself into, I dont see any reason for players not to enjoy the game. If they dont, they are clearly in the wrong game. I grow weary of this "players wont like it, it obstructs their freedom." I am not going to make my game by the lowest denominator. If avoiding this requires some manipulation I will not hesitate using it.

Thank you for the pointers everyone.

With great respect,
Jargon

Quote from: Jargon on November 24, 2007, 04:39:48 AMI think that I must set some boundaries for new players just because if I dont do it their creativity will bog down in front of infinite possibilities. Like children they need some boundaries that make them feel safe enough to grow to the mature potential of the game.

The open nature of the setting can be an issue, of course. It wouldn't be the first time that the vast range of available options has proven too daunting for potential players without any idea where to start, in which case encouragement of the "but you can be anything and do anything!" variety doesn't help much. However, don't make the mistake of underestimating the rest of the group: it might only require a single starting point to get them going, and after that the sheer power scale of the PCs will make planning far ahead absolutely futile. (Danny's advice was all good, incidentally.)

You are absolutely right GrimGent. After the start I will focus on making as interesting NPCs as possible and let the game work itself out with their help. I really don't have any "master plan" and I don't like railroading even if I might have given such impression in my last message. After Commencement I give them some quite simple task that has few complications and everything should go on it's own weight after that. But what I consider obligatory for my group is quite "structured" start to erase their fears of the game.

I'd note that a vast range of options isn't daunting, it's pointless. We can all just sit at home and imagine without limit. If were getting together, there must be some groovy limitation involved in order to make that worth our collective while.

I'd say panning it back so as to not overwhelm the players is missplaced. Their not overwhelmed, their underwhelmed. There's no real reason for getting together if there's no nifty limit being used that night. Add limits which are interesting to you as a GM or brainstorm as a group, limits which are interesting.

Player characters have now been chosen and the campaign will start with powers of Dream and Music.

At least in a preliminary plan Dream is going to be a spirit torn out of its body that lies in a coma. In game terms he is going to be a ghost with the exception that the easiest way of destroying him is to kill his real body that is in a vegetable state in some hospital. Interesting twist here is that maybe characters relatives are talking about eutanasia maybe to get their hands on the heritance. Spirits first anchor materialized from his first dream after commencement and became reality which gives player a great freedom for creating body of his own liking as "main vessel."

Music is a head figure of some minor rock/goth band that finds himself to be a power of Music. I think that there is a lot of potential in this character to explore ambitions and how they turn out to be in the end. When he realizes his control over the domain of Music, will he use it with responsibility or only to further his goals that he had as a human and how all this is going to turn out.

It was decided that their Imperator is going to be a magister of Light.

Any thoughts?

- Jargon