Okay, I got my über-copy of Sorcerer. And I can say that Sorcerer & Sword rocks the entire combined worlds that make up my rump.
So much so that I went to the local 2nd hand bookstore, blew 25 bucks, and walked out with 9 fantasy paperbacks (Lieber, C.L. Moore, Poul Anderson, Wagner, Offutt, David Drake, Keith Taylor, Michael Shea, Jessica Salmonson), one Robert Bloch, and a pair of Stanislaw Lems (not part of the motif, I know).
Dang I love this ... raw (?) fantasy (I don't know what to call it to separate it from Elf-Dragon-Trilogy fantasy) and I love you too, Mr. Ron Edwards!!
Now I've just got to play the thing ...
In building my &Sword library, I picked up Poul Anderson's The Broken Sword, since it was in the bibliography and there was actually a copy to be had. Man! That is one cold, cold book. Interesting that it was written more or less contemporaneously with Lord of the Rings (which I've never been able to reread with pleasure, which is to say I've never been able to reread it) and is maybe the last Norse-inflected fantasy novel innocent of Tolkein influence.
I was struck generally by just how hard it was to find even used copies of so much of the literature Ron referenced. These are things that were all over the new bookstore shelves when I was in that business in the early 80s.
Best,
Jim
zak--
i had pretty much the same experience as you.
i never really thought of myself as "someone who likes sword & sorcery lit" (probably due to my incredibly wussiness). but i read through &sword & LOVED it, & immediately started digging for books on the bibliography (& like supplanter had a really hard time finding stuff). i've now read through some elric stuff & lankhmar stuff (both of which i'd read in junior high but which seemed fresh & new to me this time 'round). liked the elric stories & absolutely adored the leiber stories. i'm still looking for good conan & other books.
Hey folks,
I can't add much to my vitriolic text in Sword about the history of fantasy fiction, except to tell you that I wish many horrible things upon (say) Mercedes Lackey every time I go into a bookstore ...
Jim, it's good to know you and I still have room for agreement on some things. We may never get on the same page ABOUT this stuff we like, but we're right together on WHAT it is, eh?
And, um, Josh? Love you too. I guess. (This "cult of Ron" stuff is getting way out of hand)
Best,
Ron
Best,
Ron
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On 2001-06-26 16:32, Ron Edwards wrote:
I can't add much to my vitriolic text in Sword about the history of fantasy fiction, except to tell you that I wish many horrible things upon (say) Mercedes Lackey every time I go into a bookstore ...
Okay, 3rd freaking time I've replied here. Jeesh. Even Clinton's cookie fix isn't working here. Okay, short version:
I have never read Mercedes Lackey (but now I"m curious, in that b-movie fascination of mine).
I am reading Jirel of Joiry and it's great!! (luckily, having read lots of Lovecraft, I can remove my 90's sensibilities and
not put a book down when it turns out the best way to get a lover is to force your lips on theirs and then smack 'em across the room).
Is there any book/internet/other resource that lists this kind of information? I'd like to be able to expand my list of "to get" books and authors, and read more than just a cursory description (or, in some cases, a title and author).
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And, um, Josh? Love you too. I guess. (This "cult of Ron" stuff is getting way out of hand)
I was the guilty (but loving) party there. But I don't know about the Cult of Ron. I've seen it mentioned here on the Forge, but I don't know what it is.
_________________
Zak
zak@mimir.netHarlekin Maus Games[ This Message was edited by: Zak Arntson on 2001-06-26 17:48 ]
hey, look! it's a big ol' sword & sorcery love-in!
Zak,
The Cult of Ron secrets can be found over here... down this dark alley...
*thwack*
Now go forth like a good disciple and read everything Ron ever wrote. Remember at all times your sacred duty to repeat and defend everything Ron has said about gaming with the same fervor as a scientologist explaining why "Battlefield Earth" is actually the best SF movie ever.
Lon
It's a good thing we're lovin'-in over here, because it sure as fuck isn't happening in GNS 101.
The Cult thing is a joke based on the number of people who started referencing my stuff during discussions in various fora, thus generating anxiety in people who hadn't seen said stuff.
Anyway, enough babble. What was this thread about?
Best,
Ron
Sword and Sorcery, and Sorcerer and Sword. Which reminds me, awhile ago on GO I rather archly said that there was already a treasure table in &Sword. Now that you own Epiphany, I wonder if you know where the treasure/wealth table is? Care to venture?
Best,
Jim
i just checked amazon.com & the disfavored hero by jessica a. salmonson is in print, which is new, i believe, as i've checked on her tomoe gozen stuff before & found it all out-of-print & difficult to find. i can't tell if this is a collection (as it's the only tomoe gozen book in print) or just one novel, though. ron, do you know?
No, I'm pretty ignorant about who's publishing what these days. As a side bit of info, though, JA Salmonson has always had one foot in the indie scene, though, publishing horror zines like Fantasy Macabre and a lot of small-press stuff in general.
As a used-bookstore fiend, I'm a bit surprised to hear about people's troubles finding copies of my references in Sword. I still see copies of most of it all 'round the place - even some CA Smith, recently. Maybe we ought to do a blitz of bookstores in Milwaukee during a lull at GenCon, so everyone gets tanked up on the good stuff.
Best,
Ron
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Maybe we ought to do a blitz of bookstores in Milwaukee during a lull at GenCon, so everyone gets tanked up on the good stuff.
Damn, yes. I have no used bookstore access here. I have no ability to get "the good stuff," though I've wanted to.
Cripes. I just went and bought another ... counting ... 11 books.
Moorcock, Fritz Leiber, Tanith Lee (2), David C Smith (2), MacDonald (3).
Oh, and a George Alec Effinger and Walter B. Gibson, but they don't count.
Feeeeel the love, Ron.
Except the only Robert E. Howard book I have is Almuric. And it's mighty crapulent. Two (2!) used bookstores near my work, both HEAVILY stocked with F&SF don't have shit for Howard. Well, they had Almuric. I'm getting really angry about this. I may have to brave downtown now ... or do some online ordering.
Almuric, crapulent??
I look at it as Howard's answer to the Barsoom books by Edgar Rice Burroughs.
OK, granted, the Barsoom books are awesome classics, or most of them anyway. They are amazing science fiction and swashbuckling. However, they are also quintessentially Victorian in spirit - no sweat, no sex, no baffled American indignation (in fact, Carter is often infuriatingly smug). I can just see Howard thrilling to John Carter's adventures ... and then saying, "Hey, these are wonderful ideas, but the people are kind of bloodless. Here, let me show you."
And so Almuric is low on ideas (no clones, no symbiotic creatures, no wild & crazy creatures), but it's hefty on what men and women do, and how they feel about it. I think it's the world Howard wanted to be transported to, as opposed to Barsoom, based on American frontier romanticism rather than on European derring-do.
Burroughs: Barsoom. Lovecraft: the Dreamlands. Howard: Almuric.
Granted, it ain't a GREAT book.
Best,
Ron
Hey Zak,
What'd you get by David C. Smith? I've got a trilogy that includes Master of Evil. I enjoyed the first volume in that trilogy quite a bit. I think I read a little ways into the second volume, but never finished reading the whole trilogy.
Paul
Ron Wrote:
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Almuric, crapulent??
I look at it as Howard's answer to the Barsoom books by Edgar Rice Burroughs.
...
I can just see Howard thrilling to John Carter's adventures ... and then saying, "Hey, these are wonderful ideas, but the people are kind of bloodless. Here, let me show you."
That's the thing. There was too much attention payed to gender roles and not enough moving plot. I felt like it was Howards' little personal fantasy or something.
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Granted, it ain't a GREAT book.
And maybe that's why I was disappointed. It's the first Howards book I read. I was looking for way more.
Paul Wrote
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What'd you get by David C. Smith? I've got a trilogy that includes Master of Evil. I enjoyed the first volume in that trilogy quite a bit. I think I read a little ways into the second volume, but never finished reading the wole trilogy.
I've got Oron and The Sorcerer's Shadow. I found a piece of the Master of Evil at the store, but my wallet and the fact that it wasn't the first forbade me from buying.
I'm trying to read these things chronologically. I just got The Book of Fritz Leiber, articles & stories picked by Fritz.
There was a little gem by C.F. Gardner called Kothar, Barbarian Swordsman. Liked that one a lot. I think Ron quotes from it in Sword. Otherwise, my personal faves are Lieber's Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser stuff. For the more visually oriented among us, Mignola illustrated a few of the early stories in a graphic novel. Both Lieber and Gardner feature marvelous, deft use of language in addition to telling grand stories.
GRATUITOUS WARNING: I encountered John Norman's Gor series when I was a sprout. This stuff looks like a sword and sorcery series and it's written in a moderately engaging E.R. Burroughs Barsoomy style, but after the first couple of (not too bad) books, Norman's adolescent sexual domination agenda grew toxic-toxic-toxic for his storytelling.
For those of you eprived in the used bookstore scene, send me lists of works you're looking for via private e-mail. The vacation home is in a little town with two pretty decent used bookstores (God help you if you want new books--you have to drive over an hour to the nearest new bookstore).
I'll see if the stores have anything when I'm there next week and write back with what I find and the address for mail order. I'd send you the URL for the stores, but I haven't convinced them to hire me yet.