Here are bare bones of a new magic system for TROS.
This is a system designed as a more conventional "rpg"magic system
apologies but this is a very bare bones draft and hardly ready. I would appreciate some feedback
To possess the ability to cast spells is a B proirity just as in regular TROS
Magic forms are bought as proficiencies. To calculate ones power pool add the form proficiencies to the average of Will and MA. This is the "power pool"
The magic forms are as follows
Knowing
Illusion (or Glamour)
Fire
Earth
Water
Air
Body
Mind
Animal
Plant
Spirit
Power
Protection
Fortune
movement
more?
To cast a spell in a given form a mage allocates dice from his power pool.
Each effect has a number of sucesses required to make the spell work.
The number of sucesses determines the power of the spell, more power requires a greater number of sucesses in the pool.
It is legal to take from more than one pool. If a mage wishes to cast Protect Body from Fire at the senechals discretion he may split the cost between the various pools
The difficulty of a given spell depends on cirumstances. If the mage is well rested, able to speak and make a modest gesture and not under stress the TN is 7+.
Modifiers to the TN include stress, being in combat, the ability to to speak, difficuty of spell and/ or gestures and time.
The spell pool recovers at the rate of 1 point per hour. A special skill "Tapping" allows more power to be drawn from Nodes, Sacrifices and so on.
A mage with tapping may also quick charge if there is a power source available. This is dangerous and will inflict a general wound equal to the number of dice in a day drawn minus toughness.
Stopping before the pool is full requires a WP roll difficulty 7
Once the number of dice is drawn roll a dif 7 EN check, Each success reduces the damage by 1
The Ritual magic skill allows bonus dice to the power pool to be added to a spell casting as well.
When a spell is cast the number of dice allocated is rolled, sucessfull dice do not drain the pool. Failures are spent and rolls of 10 cost double. Rolls of 1 count as two sucesses but not for refresh
No sucesess and a 10 is bad very bad....
Example Joe the Mage cast a 10 die spell getting 5, 6, 3, 5, 8,, 9, 4, 1, The base difficulty was 8 so its 4 sucesses (with an 8, 9 and double from the 1)
Total cost of the spell was 7
Combat spells ... A favorite mage trick is hurling energy at a target. This is treated as a missle weapon doing base damage equal to 3+ casting sucessess.
Combat spells can be learned as weapons. They use the missle pool plus Bolt throwing proficienses
They can be blocked with a shield but not parried
Mental spells are resisted by WP. Difficulty is 7.
Note that SA's can be used in spell casting. They are treated as pool dice that neither diminish nor refresh.
A minimum of 1 pool must be spent per spell.
I'm not sure why for the most part... It might have something to do with your distgusting list of "forms"(a total of 16), many of which overlap in many places, or are specializations of others. I like TRoS's vagaries better the way they are.
Quick-charging the spell pool is an interesting idea, and I like giving extra pool dice for a higher level of mastery over that vagary (at least for spells of one).
-Psychopompous
Quote from: PsychopompousI'm not sure why for the most part... It might have something to do with your distgusting list of "forms"(a total of 16), many of which overlap in many places, or are specializations of others. I like TRoS's vagaries better the way they are.
Quick-charging the spell pool is an interesting idea, and I like giving extra pool dice for a higher level of mastery over that vagary (at least for spells of one).
-Psychopompous
I have reservations about the "Vagary" magic system and as a varient wanted to come up with a more "traditional" RPG magic system.
The vagaries work fine, the aging rule is flavorfull but TROS magic really is strange to me
As an example, it is effectivly as easy to destroy the entire planet as to heal a wound.
Heal wound is CTN10 while a doomsday spell is only only CTN11(see my spell Obliterate here on the forum)
This bothers me. Also somefolks may want "magic as a tool" rather than a the magic system in TROS
ONe thing I forgot to do was stats in my varient that the "forms" should be thought of as weapon styles
Just as a club can be used with longsword or sword and shield the same tasks can be accomplished with several different forms
If I have a fire I want to shield from I can use Fire, Protection, Movement, Water or whatever else the Senechal allows
The mixed forms shouldn't be thought of as Ars Magica "Noun/Verb" magic but as styles. If you know more than one form you can split the cost.
NOw the declining magic ability allows for a balancing factor. In the core rules the magic isn't supposed to be balanced (feature not a bug though) but in this system there are checks and balances built in.
ALos remember it is only the bare bones...
Quote from: AceAs an example, it is effectivly as easy to destroy the entire planet as to heal a wound.
Heal wound is CTN10 while a doomsday spell is only only CTN11(see my spell Obliterate here on the forum)
Makes you wonder why nobody ever has successfully destroyed the world then eh? Someone (mad with grief or just insane) must have tried once or twice throughout history. Theoretically it should have been easy, but it obviously didn't work. Hmm... maybe there's more to these religions than one might otherwise think......
... or maybe there's a sentient force behind magic itself. Maybe when you age through magic you are prolonging *its* life force which keeps it around as the "keeper" of magic...
or maybe...
(etc)
Brian.
I suspect that any sorcerer who tried it would be stopped by the other sorcerers. There are a number of neat spells with vision 2-3 and maybe summoning that would give warning of such an attempt.
Quote from: AceI suspect that any sorcerer who tried it would be stopped by the other sorcerers. There are a number of neat spells with vision 2-3 and maybe summoning that would give warning of such an attempt.
Mine was more fun :-)
Brian.
Quote from: AceI suspect that any sorcerer who tried it would be stopped by the other sorcerers. There are a number of neat spells with vision 2-3 and maybe summoning that would give warning of such an attempt.
Spells of three just don't take all that long to cast, and how is any sorcerer going to notice it until it's a little late unless there's some powerful cadre of sorcerers watching the entire world 100% of the time to keep some madman from destroying it...
-Psychopompous
I can't find your obliterate spell, but I really have difficulty believing that a magician can destroy the world w/o knowledge of advanced theoretical physics.
-Jeff
Quote from: JaifI can't find your obliterate spell, but I really have difficulty believing that a magician can destroy the world w/o knowledge of advanced theoretical physics.
-Jeff
Pick up a *really* big rock, and hurl it at the ground at the speed of light.
Boom.
Brian.
Quote from: JaifI can't find your obliterate spell, but I really have difficulty believing that a magician can destroy the world w/o knowledge of advanced theoretical physics.
-Jeff
here is the spell
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2298
As for the theoretical physics... How do we know the sorcerers don't have this knowledge?
many gifted have vision 3, which will allow you the equivilant of an electron microscope.
Combine that with a basic atomic theory (theorized during the real worlds bronze age) a little curiosity and you have super scientific lore.
Quote from: PsychopompousQuote from: AceI suspect that any sorcerer who tried it would be stopped by the other sorcerers. There are a number of neat spells with vision 2-3 and maybe summoning that would give warning of such an attempt.
Spells of three just don't take all that long to cast, and how is any sorcerer going to notice it until it's a little late unless there's some powerful cadre of sorcerers watching the entire world 100% of the time to keep some madman from destroying it...
-Psychopompous
I figure most sorcerers use spells like Prophesy (CTN6) or an improved version of it with a vision vagary of 3. This has a CTN of 7 or 8 if not formalized and will give a decent vision of any major events in the Lifetime of the caster.
I figure that if some madman was to cast such a spell it would show up like a beacon.
Most likely the RPG session would go something like this
Player as Loo-Ni (a grief stricken Sorcerer) "Enough of this suffering, I will inflict a terrible price" to the GM "I begin to cast Obliteration"
GM "As you start to cast the spell there is a terrible wrenching as you spell is stopped"
Player "How?"
GM "20 years ago when you started on this path you sent ripples into the time stream. Every mage with destiny and every mage who ever attempted a Prophesy or a stronger spell is aware of what you will do"
Player "But that makes no sense, My character didn't know he was going to do that"
GM-- Grinning "Hey its magic" You are instantly squished by a boulder moving at the speed of sound. Make a new character
Player --- "Screw you I am playing D&D next time"
:)
QuotePick up a *really* big rock, and hurl it at the ground at the speed of light.
No, the rock would catch fire and burn due to atmospheric friction. Of course, you're assuming that a sorcerer knows and understands the difference between really, really fast speeds, like the speed of sound, and theoretical limits, such as the speed of light. I've suggested before that it's a bad idea to allow sorcerers such knowledge - it doesn't make sense in a simulationist sense, it makes them too powerful in a gamist sense, and too much of it can ruin drama in a narrativist sense.
QuoteAs for the theoretical physics... How do we know the sorcerers don't have this knowledge?
many gifted have vision 3, which will allow you the equivilant of an electron microscope.
Combine that with a basic atomic theory (theorized during the real worlds bronze age) a little curiosity and you have super scientific lore.
LOL!
How do I know they don't have this knowledge?
1) I'm the GM, problem solved.
2) Just because the word "atom" was coined in the bronze age doesn't mean they're atomic theory was correct. It wasn't.
3) Modern physics is the result of thousands of people's lifetime efforts, including the work of a few hundred geniouses & near-geniouses. Furthermore, any understanding of complex physics requires an understanding of complex math. The bottom line is there's no way even a genious level sorcerer could work it all out himself. "Start with counting and x-ray vision: work out non-euclidean geometry, partial differential equations, and then use these tools to create a reasonable explanation of the world around you." Yeah, right.
Don't put yourself into a bind - assume that a sorcerer's knowledge safely encompasses basic mechanics and simple thermodynamics (things like hot air rising), and leaving it at that.
-Jeff
P.S. I can't stress this enough:
Archimedes
Keppler
Newton
Euler
Gauss
Einstein
I'm only scratching the surface here. These are people who are far smarter than your characters, who dedicated their lives to the search of scientific answers. You're allowing sorcerers to gain not only their knowledge, but the knowledge of hundreds of others like them. Worse yet, your character's backgrounds have nothing in them like "...spent all his youth and adult life pursuing science in the company of monks atop Mt. Safety. At the tender age of 60, he journies forth to...", yet you're willing to give them such knowledge?
P.P.S. When Einstein was working on General Relativity, he asked a math professor to tutor him in differential geometry. This stuff is that complicated.
P.P.P.S. You know, some of you need to actually make some sorcerers. You're assuming 3's in tons of vagaries; it's not that easy. Consider:
A: 14 vagaries
B: Gifted
C: 39 attributes
D: No gifts/flaws
E: Peasant
F: 9 skill
How does our peasant with barely any skill know physics? Also note that he only has 4 vagaries, at most, to level 3.
Jeff,
Great post, good call, which badly needed to be made.
Nothing else to say.
Best,
Ron
I think the most important mechanism for avoiding such situations falls under this line:
Quote from: JaifHow do I know they don't have this knowledge?
1) I'm the GM, problem solved.
If you, as Seneschal, deem it possible that they know alla this, then you are giving explicit permission for them to use Sorcery to rape the world and physics, thus allowing immortality despite the price of Sorcery, the ability to destroy the world in less than 2 minutes, and a whole slew of other nastiness. If this is the sort of world you want to play in, GREAT! Have a ball. I don't want to play in that sort of world, though. No Tom Clancy-esque nuclear espionage, etc. for me, thank you.
However, that's no reason to totally knock it here on the boards. Just remember that what
you will allow, others may not, and that what you disallow, others might like.
It's your world, people. Have fun.
Quote from: Jaif
[P.P.P.S. You know, some of you need to actually make some sorcerers. You're assuming 3's in tons of vagaries; it's not that easy. Consider:
A: 14 vagaries
B: Gifted
C: 39 attributes
D: No gifts/flaws
E: Peasant
F: 9 skill
How does our peasant with barely any skill know physics? Also note that he only has 4 vagaries, at most, to level 3.
Thats a starting Sorcerer with no Insight points.
A peasant wouldn't unless Theoretic applications are part and parcel of Sorcery training, GM's call.
Vagaries?
Vision3, Growth2 (for quick kill spells), Movement3, Summon2, conquer1, Glamor2-- Thats should do the job. Its certainly enough for Obliterate or some equivilant spell
In a session or four, I will raise Summon, Conquer and a few of the others....
However I wouldn't play a Sorcerer without having Insight. First of, using Sorcerery properly requires a good understanding of the rules
Second, I don't want to play that sort of hedge witch?
I was thinking of a sophisticated Helenic Sorcerer would be more fun to play myself
"Obliterate" won't work. Or rather it can't cause global devestation. Objects approching the speed of light start to loose mass. Theoreticaly, its impact would be minimal. And even at speeds where it would be at full mass, a 1 ton rock just isn't that big. My car weighs more than that by about half (as do most average 4doors). That rock will probabbly fit in my truck. At best, the worst the impact could do is reproduce the effects of the eruption of a small volcano. Sorry, doomsday will have to go to plan B.
Quote from: Ben"Obliterate" won't work. Or rather it can't cause global devestation. Objects approching the speed of light start to loose mass. Theoreticaly, its impact would be minimal.
You need to recheck your relativity. As an object approaches lightspeed the mass
increases towards infinity. This is fundamental conservation of energy in action. The speed of light is an unattainable maximum, so the new energy can't increase the velocity beyond a certain point, instead it increases the mass.
It's impact wouldn't be minimal. When you get up to near lightspeed, not only is your speed horrendously fast, but your mass approaches infinity. You are looking at a blast which will literally shatter the globe, even if the object wasn't very big to begin with.
Quote from: JaifQuotePick up a *really* big rock, and hurl it at the ground at the speed of light.
No, the rock would catch fire and burn due to atmospheric friction. Of course, you're assuming that a sorcerer knows and understands the difference between really, really fast speeds, like the speed of sound, and theoretical limits, such as the speed of light. I've suggested before that it's a bad idea to allow sorcerers such knowledge - it doesn't make sense in a simulationist sense, it makes them too powerful in a gamist sense, and too much of it can ruin drama in a narrativist sense.
I'm making no such assertion. A sorceror with movement 3 could very easily accidentally pick up a rock and throw it at someone "as fast as I can". He doesn't need to understand the concept of the speed of sound or the speed of light for movement 3 to allow him to push it to that speed. And atmospheric friction? Oh please. I can pick up a boulder 1 foot off the ground and then throw it at the ground at the speed of light with movement 3. There's not enough time for friction to do diddly squat and because E=MC^2 the rock is infinitely large when it hits the ground a foot below and the planet shatters.
Narativism, gamism, simulationism all be damned, I'm talking about something that could happen quite accidentally, without the mage meaning to do it, and all he needs is 3 vagary points and a moment of stupidity.
Wouldn't work in my game, but not because he doesn't understand anything. There are other forces that would stop him.
Brian.
We're running into a few problems here:
1) A nit: an object with mass can't go the speed of light, just get really close.
2) Air becomes more "solid" as you go through it faster. There is friction.
3) The biggest difficulty with the rules is that it posits a situation that violates one of the most fundamental rules of science: F=MA, or force is mass times accelleration. The game rules state that you accelerate something "instantaneously", which means that our magician is able to apply an infinite amount of force to a mass. That's something I would never let into my games - it just makes no sense. As soon as "instantaneous" becomes "nearly instantaneous", then you start talking real world again, and it's again tough to do what you're asking.
4) For grins (with some rounding, and please check the numbers):
Energy = 1/2 mass * velocity^2
E = 1/2 * 1000kg * (300,000km/sec * 1000m/km)^2
E = 500 * (3 * 10^8)^2
QuoteRock's Energy = 4.5 * 10^19 joules
Now, I just looked up a megaton on a random website (http://panda.unm.edu/courses/finley/P160/HW/HW16Sol.html) and it's:
QuoteOne megaton = 4.2 * 10^15 joules
Bottom line it's 10,000 megatons. That's 1000 times as powerful as Hiroshima. According to this site: http://www.aeic.alaska.edu/Input/lahr/magnitude/energy.txt , you're about 4 * more powerful than the energy output of the largest earthquake ever recorded (9.5 on the richtor scale).
Now, the Hiroshima bomb blew in the air to maximize radius, but I'll skip that. Everything within a mile was totally destroyed at hiroshima, and everything burned between 2 and 3 miles away. I guess we're looking at a 30+mile zone of total destruction, and fires lit up to 100 miles away.
-Jeff
P.S. Yes, I've assumed a totally inelastic collision between the rock and the ground, which is really wacky. But then again, the idea that people are tossing rocks around at the speed of light is silly.
QuoteA sorceror with movement 3 could very easily accidentally pick up a rock and throw it at someone "as fast as I can". He doesn't need to understand the concept of the speed of sound or the speed of light for movement 3 to allow him to push it to that speed.
That's intuition speaking, secifically your intuition as to how magic is cast. There's nothing anywhere that says a magician can automatically toss something as fast as he can: it's not like he's tossing a rock and straining his toughest.
Anyway, I think we agree on one thing: "not in our games". I may tackle the issue one way, you may view it another way, but we're not going to let some arbitrary rule hamstring our games.
-Jeff
The easy solution is to forbid All Sorcerer PC's.
This way you don't have the players running Amok killing major NPC's.
"Look its the evil Baron, I will drop a rock on the tent" It doesn't have to be at lightspeed either
Or the ever popular "Use Conquer on the folks in the castle, get a hair sample and use a Suicide spell on the Baron"
The "You can't do that" solution won't work with my players (or me) unless there is discussion up front about what is not allowed.
A GM who cried "Game Balance"and started nerfing the rules to suit would quickly lose me and a lot of my guys as players.
I have no problem with being told, up front, I can't do something but if you decide to de-empower me as a player, against the rules as written, than I won't cooperate.
Most of my game group feels the same way.
I would feel that if the GM were constantly reducing my powers as a Sorcerer all he wanted to do was kill the character.
Its the "AHAHAHAHA I can age your character to death by not allowing him to be clever" approach in action and I would have to have a serious discussion with the GM.
If he wasn't absolutely clear about his intent than I would assume he is a poor GM and politely quit.
I will always play with a story and am open to house rulings but I expect the GM to be fair about it.
Yo Ace
I spin it like so: I think magic is different for everyone, how they perceive it, how it should work, so on and so forth, so the challenge was to design a system that would cater to anything anyone had ever read, wanted to try, or could come up with in the future. Straight up the magic system is designed to do ANYTHING, no holds barred. ( I.e. 3 in all nine vagaries is Que from star treck, or Akira) Now that was dang hard to pull off, in relevance to game balance, especially considering the magical standard is and synonymous with D@D, and it puts a big chunk of quick thinking responsibility in the lap of the Seneschal. I tried to make a system that made logical sense, and in order to incorporate junk like teleportation and regeneration it was necessary to design a system with an equally proportional danger of abuse intact. Hence the nighty-night equation and the necessity of unheard-of skills. To date it would seem that goal has succeeded. (Fortunately there have been no arguments that sorcerers just aren't powerful enough.) Ultimately gamers decide what they feel is appropriate in terms of tone, power and style. (Has anyone else ever not killed Lloth? LOL) Chat with your guys, let em know where you want to go. Rules are just rules. They're only ment to make pretending easier. It's really just supposed to be fun.
Sounds like you're having a tough time with it though, sorry to hear. Aside from say, trying to distract characters in the midst of their world crushing spells, (a bee flying up their nose, a sink hole opening up underneath them, diamonds glittering in the sunlight, or my favorite: The sudden appearance of some of saucy wenches, I'm not sure how to advise you. But let me tell you, it's hard to get a drink on a pile of rubble.
Just my take,
Rick
QuoteI will always play with a story and am open to house rulings but I expect the GM to be fair about it.
Of course. I agree with this, and the gist of what you said. In fact, I didn't allow any PC sorcs at the start of my campaign because I wasn't prepared to discuss the system in advance, and I felt I'd be making too many judgement calls on them.
With the new rules chapter, though, and some of these discussions which highlight problem areas, I'd do it now. I'd have to go through the rules, highlight a few sections, and tell the player they may be in for judgement calls in those areas.
Btw, conquer the Baron's servants, or just silently shrink his tiara by 10x while you sit in the back of the peasants during open court. I'm not possesive about the NPCs.
-Jeff
Quote from: Jaif
No, the rock would catch fire and burn due to atmospheric friction. Of course, you're assuming that a sorcerer knows and understands the difference between really, really fast speeds, like the speed of sound, and theoretical limits, such as the speed of light. I've suggested before that it's a bad idea to allow sorcerers such knowledge - it doesn't make sense in a simulationist sense, it makes them too powerful in a gamist sense, and too much of it can ruin drama in a narrativist sense.
The atmospheric friction would create quite a nasty plasma-ball (do you have any idea how much energy is being carried with that lightspeed rock?), and result in an even nastier atmostpheric firestorm.
Quote from: Jaif
How do I know they don't have this knowledge?
1) I'm the GM, problem solved.
2) Just because the word "atom" was coined in the bronze age doesn't mean they're atomic theory was correct. It wasn't.
3) Modern physics is the result of thousands of people's lifetime efforts, including the work of a few hundred geniouses & near-geniouses. Furthermore, any understanding of complex physics requires an understanding of complex math. The bottom line is there's no way even a genious level sorcerer could work it all out himself. "Start with counting and x-ray vision: work out non-euclidean geometry, partial differential equations, and then use these tools to create a reasonable explanation of the world around you." Yeah, right.
My character is an 800+ year-old fey who has set out on the task of learning how the universe works. He has an MA of 7 (which qualifies as a genious, I'd start with higher, but that's not allowed) and has been documenting things throughout his life. He has been working far more efficiently than human scientists in real history because he doesn't have to transfer his knowledge repeatedly through a long chain of discoverers. He has had from the very beginning the finest of scientific instruments with which to observe the world around him.
-Psychopompous
Quote...do you have any idea how much energy is being carried with that lightspeed rock?
What?! At the risk of being rude, did you even bother reading this thread? I just calculated the energy of an impossible lightspeed, 1 ton rock under the rules of basic mechanics. It came out to be 1000 Hiroshima bombs. On the richtor scale, it's probably around 9.7-9.8.
So yes, yes I do know. The question is, do you, or are you just using wild guesswork like most people in this thread?
Listen people, when you start saying things like "a lightspeed rock will obliterate the earth" you've just jumped into the realm of science. Your woman's intuition, trick knee, ouija board, or whatever other form of guesswork you chose to use is meaningless. Show the numbers, or back off.
I'm not suggesting that you do physics for every spell. At the same time, don't jump to a scientific conclusion (the world will be obliterated) without scientific backing and then complain that the system is too much.
I have to admit, I don't get some of what I read here. You make rulings that "hurt" the game, then complain that the game is easy to hurt. Just change your ruling.
....
May I suggest something? How bout lvl 3 movement does almost exactly what it says, but with the following additions:
1) No instantaneous acceleration, so we have no infinite forces. For now, really fast, with definition provided later. Newton can stop rolling now.
2) A further modifier to a spell's CTN. You can accelerate to any velocity you want, but every multiple of the speed of sound qualifies as an additional 1 to the CTN. So +1 for mach 2, +2 for mach 3, and so on.
....
Ace,
If you want traditional magic, the thought that keeps going through my head is something like this:
1) Instead of rolling for months of aging, roll for points of fatigue (chapter 5). That will slow your mages down, but not stop them.
2) Combine summoning of spirits and demons into one thing ("entities"?), and allow your players to summon elements from another plane. With entities, they can summon allies ala traditional D&D (who only have a duration here before they disappear), and with elements you can summon earth, air, fire, water, etc...
3) If you feel that level 3s are too easy to reach (which I understand), try the following: lvl 1 costs 1, lvl 2 costs 4, lvl 3 costs 27. For the curious, that's 2 squared and 3 cubed. Apply these costs at start and during play. This means to get a 3, a mage must have 25 points stored and be granted 2 points at one time (or 24 & 3, etc...).
Those are just thoughts, I haven't really worked them through. But they would be a way to preserve most of the system, and achieve the main effects that I think you're looking for: a) a less deadly system, b) a smoother progression of power, and (mostly) c) spell effects more like D&D.
-Jeff
Ok, I'm probably overdoing it here, but one last point.
Mass of the earth:
6000000000000000000000000 kilograms
Mass of the projectile
1000 kilograms (rough)
Get the picture? Or, in terms of a 60kg woman:
60000 grams (changed to grams)
versus
0.00000000000000001 grams
A grain of sand:
0.003 grams
Now, a grain of sand hits your body at whatever speed you want. Actually, the grain of sand is now a trillion times smaller.
This is why I commented earlier about "obliterate" being hard to fathom. The world is a very big thing.
P.S. http://www.enchantedlearning.com/subjects/astronomy/planets/earth/
Quote from: JaifQuote...do you have any idea how much energy is being carried with that lightspeed rock?
What?! At the risk of being rude, did you even bother reading this thread? I just calculated the energy of an impossible lightspeed, 1 ton rock under the rules of basic mechanics. It came out to be 1000 Hiroshima bombs. On the richtor scale, it's probably around 9.7-9.8.
So yes, yes I do know. The question is, do you, or are you just using wild guesswork like most people in this thread?
There is one terrible, glaring problem with you calculation. That is E = 1/2*m*v^2 breaks down as you approach light speed (because of the mass increase). If you check with Einstein (http://www.bartleby.com/173/15.html), you'll see that energy in fact "approaches infinity as the velocity v approaches the velocity of light c". This is not a rock with 1000 megatons of energy. This is a rock with near infinite energy.
Quote from: JaifOk, I'm probably overdoing it here, but one last point.
Mass of the earth:
6000000000000000000000000 kilograms
Mass of the projectile
1000 kilograms (rough)
Actually,
Mass of projectile:
Some ungodly huge number as relativistic principles take effect. We're talking millions or billions of times that original (effective rest mass) of 1000 kilograms, ballooning to incalculable realms of imagination the closer you get to the speed of light.
You're still thinking in Newtonian terms. This is the relativistic realm now. It's an entirely different game here.
And that's why movement 3, as written, is just way too overpowered. :P
I like silly topics like this.
Any object that is moving is heavier than when it is not moving. It's just not noticeable at what they call non-reltivistic speeds. Yep, at just nine tenths the speed of light, your object weighs more than twice what it would at rest. This increases asymtotically as you approach the speed of light. So, if we can get to .999999999999999 times the speed of light, as an example, the object would then weigh over 22 million times as much.
That rock hits the atmosphere, and before it passes the fraction of a second that it would take to get to the ground, it goes through the fusion process (skips right past plasma) and is destroyed. Yup, releasing so much energy that the earth is reduced to its atomic structuresin a matter of moments. Well, I'm actually just guessing, really. It might actually take a few more nines in that number above. That's all a desktop will do without special programs. But you can have as many nines as you want.
Theory states that it's possible in real life as long as you could figure out how to impart that much energy to a rock. To destroy the Earth, it would take about as much energy put into the rock as you would get by say, tossing the Earth into the sun for fuel. The mass is really irrelevant, you get as much energy out as you put in; you could use that grain of sand, or a single atom or even subatomic particles (which is what super-colliders do; hadrons to be precise, leptons might not do it). Energy is conserved. You get out what you put in. Enough nines above and you have imparted enough energy to do anything.
Actually, you'd only need a small fraction of the Earth's total mass involved in a fusion reaction to effectively destroy the whole thing (even less in an anti-matter reaction ['bout a golfball], but hey, that's a different topic entirely). It takes a lot less energy to break a chemical bond than you get from fusing atoms of the same mass together. So you'd need much less mass than the entire ball o wax. And you don't really need to vaporize eveything, anyhow. Just burn off the relatively tiny atmosphere would probably suit the suicidal sorcerer just fine.
Yes, the movement thing is problematic, IMO. If you can move something as fast as it can go by the laws of our universe, you have "near infinite" energy at your disposal, and can easily do away with planets. Heck, the real challenge would be the big central galaxy black holes. Need a lot of nines for that.
Better to place another limitation on the process as others have done here. Either change the rule (simple enough) or just say that the speed of sound is the limit (it is a point at which there is a large barrier to further acelleration), or come up with a maximum velocity that the average sorcerer can concieve of for purposes of the spell. Or better yet, come up with an in-game description of the ability and translate back into physical effect (though that might require dismantling a lot of the current system).
Mike
Furious D- This is what happens... IF the object ACCELERATES to light speed. Einstein has nothing to say about what happens if you are already going the speed of light. Some of you weren't listening when you watched K-PAX.
A bit more seriously, though, nobody says that the rock is accelerating towards the speed of light (indeed, instantaneous acceleration would indicate otherwise), thus its mass would not balloon into infinity. Sculpture would be needed in order for the rock to maintain its form (we can't have 1000 kilogram rocks just disintegrating all over the place, now can we?) and, unless you don't mind being close to the epicenter, Vision would be needed to see what one is doing. This makes the obliterate spell a Spell of Three, not unlike Fold or Smite, which are given in the book. Incidentally, the Spell of Three bit sort of reminds us why it hasn't been done accidentally. Also, Einstein hasn't been born yet, and for all we know physics on Weyrth is different than physics on Earth. Thus, sorcerors can "accelerate" things to light-speed without destroying the world. What light-speed really means here is: "As fast as your sorceror can imagine, which is probably pretty darn fast."
I kind of like having Sorcerers with that much power at their disposal and will proabably use the rules as written.
Want to destroy Weyerth? Sure go ahead. It will be a short campaign though.
I will assume almost all NPC Sorcerers have vagaries at about 2 though, rather than three. Most of them will have a C in proficiencies not an A. This will cut NPC power down a bit an may reduce the PC's urge to compensate.
As far a body hopping I will allow it as well and you won't need a gifted body to do it. More fun that way.
Oh and a final notes, as to the "Obliterate spell" if it doesn't work as written I will just add a "friction shield" component to it. Thats movement 3 at no extra cost----
Thus you will lose no mass and will pack a lot more kinetic energy, ouch....
Quote from: Lyrax
A bit more seriously, though, nobody says that the rock is accelerating towards the speed of light (indeed, instantaneous acceleration would indicate otherwise), thus its mass would not balloon into infinity.
Nobody says that? Really, what if I, the sorceror, say that? In truth, the fact that the acceleration is infinite makes things much worse because it implies a literal infinite quantity of energy (not just near infinite). You are right that the mass would not balloon
towards infinity. It would instantaneously
become infinity.
Literal infinite energy. You've roundaboutly implied that a sorceror flinging a rock is capable of destroying not only the planet, but the entire universe.
It seems to me that the only reason movement 3 doesn't routinely destroy the universe is because sorcerors are bending the laws of the universe in such a way as to preserve their own existence. Doesn't mean that they
have to.
I'm just going to leave the issue of objects travelling at full light speed alone at this point, because that's just too messy.
Quote from: Lyrax
Sculpture would be needed in order for the rock to maintain its form (we can't have 1000 kilogram rocks just disintegrating all over the place, now can we?)
Sure we can. The rock disentigrating is actually quite a nice side effect. Atmospheric nuclear fusion is a
good thing when you're trying to cause mass destruction. All that energy is still transfered to the planet whether the object stays cohesive or not.
Quote from: Lyrax
and, unless you don't mind being close to the epicenter, Vision would be needed to see what one is doing. This makes the obliterate spell a Spell of Three, not unlike Fold or Smite, which are given in the book. Incidentally, the Spell of Three bit sort of reminds us why it hasn't been done accidentally.
If it's done accidentally or in a fit of passion, the Vision component is unnecessary (we were discussing suicidal mages after all). And let's face it, Vision 3 doesn't help much when you are destroying the entire planet.
Quote from: Lyrax
Also, Einstein hasn't been born yet, and for all we know physics on Weyrth is different than physics on Earth.
Relativity exists with or without Eistein. Now, obviously you can use magic to circumvent the natural laws (moving things at light speed without destroying the planet, folding and such). But that's not to say you can't use those same laws to your advantage (moving things at near light speed expressly to destroy the planet).
Quote from: Lyrax
Thus, sorcerors can "accelerate" things to light-speed without destroying the world. What light-speed really means here is: "As fast as your sorceror can imagine, which is probably pretty darn fast."
No, what "light-speed" means here is 327,857,019 yd/s (the number is written out right there in the description). Sure, they can accelerate things to lightspeed without destroying the world. We were just saying they can destroy the world if they really want to though.
Furious,
Of course you and others are correct, I didn't play with relativity. I noted that when I said "basic mechanics". I also did it for grins, because like Mike I like silly things like this; I just wanted to see how big a number 1/2mv^2 actually is when you go lightspeed. :-)
Light speed doesnt work in my campaign - I figure it's a few multiples of the speed of sound. That's plenty fast.
-Jeff
P.S. Actually, what all of you don't know is that magic wraps the object in a bubble of "anti-relativity". Life goes back to Newton, and physics gets nice and simple once again.
Y'know, you wouldn't have to actually vaporize the planet, or even the atmosphere to destroy the world. Shatter the crust, and the volcanic activity taking place in the mantle will do the rest. You'll have a rapidly cooling, mishapen lump which used to be the mantle of the planet, surrounded by bits of crust floating around, which incidentally get caught back in the gravity well, and plummet to the ground as massive meteors, re-shattering the newly formed crust... you get the picture. Breaking down the molecular structure is hardly necessary.
Biggest thing though.. Magic generally does what it's intended to. Methinks that this is due to a greater flexibility than even the vagaries let on, and a certain energy-conservative principle, maybe even implying a certain low level of self-awareness. Unless the sorceror quite literally intends to destroy the planet, I really don't think it will happen, because this conservation principle kicks in on anything but literal intent. No one will be accidentally destroying the planet anytime soon. As for those who theoretically might intend to do just that, there kicks in the self-awareness theory. What is magic? According to the book, it's undirected life-force. Lifeforce tapped by sorcerors around the world to make things happen. Where does this undirected lifeforce come from? I would posit that it is a by-product of the actions and interactions of the living. Nothing new is created, and nothing is ever actually destroyed (ie, ceases to exist) it just changes form from matter to energy. So the sorceror conjures up some of this energy, using himself as a focal point (thereby burning some of his own energy to give the magic form and function) and releases it. When it's done it's purpose, it disperses back into raw lifeforce again, where it might eventually be called upon for sorcery again, or incorporated into more natural procedures, such as the growth of an embryo into a baby, and so on.
So now you've this mass of energy which has been channeled through countless sorcerors, and has at many points actually been congealed into a living, conscious thing.. You'd think it would retain at least a small level of this self-awareness.. a plant's level of self-preservation, at least.
Then along comes this grief-stricken, insane numbnutz who wants to call upon magic to destroy the world... destroy the entire cycle which magic has run through for untold eons... Methinks the magic will rebel, either as a conscious action, or in the same way which makes a venus flytrap close on a bug.. The magic will destroy the sorceror instead. So, want to destroy the world? G'head and try.
This also brings to mind another idea. Someone posited that magic ages you by accelerating time for you, and another responded with the theory that it just weakens your cells, in the same way that illness and injury do. I have a third theory to put forth on this topic. Magic ages you because you are using your body as a focal point for massive amounts of energy. For that moment, your cells are putting out massively higher levels of energy than what they're used to; effectively, they're in overdrive, all activities are going at a higher rate.. Thus, they burn out a little faster. There's no temporal anomaly which causes it. It's not an unnatural thing like illness or injury.. It's just natural processes accelerated, which would allow for the hair growth, the new wrinkles, etc; all the side-effects of magic use.
Furious D- Stop being so... literal and modern. It's magic, and it works in very Newtonian ways. Why? Because:
A) It empowers Sorcerors to do what they want without worrying if they're going to destroy the world accidentally.
B) It's MAGIC.
C) It doesn't require an advanced knowledge of relativistic principles that will be argued by the players anyway.
D) It's MAGIC.
E) "Spells" do exactly what they are supposed to.
F) It's MAGIC.
G) It's easier.
On a side note, Sculpture WOULD be needed to keep the rock from losing shape. Why? Because, if the rock is accelerating, then it will disintigrate LONG before it even reaches Mach 10 or so, so you can forget lightspeed.
"Ah-hah!," you say, "But you said that the rock has infinite acceleration."
No, I did not. I merely said that the rock was already at lightspeed. This circumvents everything that has to do with acceleration. You don't seem to really understand what I mean by this, so we'll ignore that. Let's simply assume that you have a rock moving at the speed of light (NOT a rock going from rest to the speed of light, merely one that is moving at the speed of light). Of course, the rock will turn into dust LONG before it turns into a nuclear explosion, so you'd still need Sculpture. Otherwise, your 1000-pound rock o' death (tm) is now 1000 pounds of dust scattered between here and the target.
If you need a complicated explanation of why magic does not destroy the world or universe worthy of a physics lecture, then Wolfen's explanation will have to be good enough for you.
Wolfen - Thank you. And, about your "aging," it seems that it's kinda like speed... (gets mental images of Fey elves getting high on magic, and some very woozy fairies).
NO!! BAD mental pictures! BAD!!
:-D
Quote from: LyraxFurious D- Stop being so... literal and modern. It's magic, and it works in very Newtonian ways. Why? Because:
A) It empowers Sorcerors to do what they want without worrying if they're going to destroy the world accidentally.
B) It's MAGIC.
C) It doesn't require an advanced knowledge of relativistic principles that will be argued by the players anyway.
D) It's MAGIC.
E) "Spells" do exactly what they are supposed to.
F) It's MAGIC.
G) It's easier.
On a side note, Sculpture WOULD be needed to keep the rock from losing shape. Why? Because, if the rock is accelerating, then it will disintigrate LONG before it even reaches Mach 10 or so, so you can forget lightspeed.
"Ah-hah!," you say, "But you said that the rock has infinite acceleration."
No, I did not. I merely said that the rock was already at lightspeed. This circumvents everything that has to do with acceleration. You don't seem to really understand what I mean by this, so we'll ignore that. Let's simply assume that you have a rock moving at the speed of light (NOT a rock going from rest to the speed of light, merely one that is moving at the speed of light). Of course, the rock will turn into dust LONG before it turns into a nuclear explosion, so you'd still need Sculpture. Otherwise, your 1000-pound rock o' death (tm) is now 1000 pounds of dust scattered between here and the target.
:-D
No, it's 1000 pounds of dust moving at lightspeed toward your target. You really DO need to brush up on your elementary mechanics.
No Sculpture required. Ever. Period. I don't want/need the rock to keep from losing its shape.
Friction is trying to decelerate the Rock from lightspeed, which actually requires infinite energy, so there is no limit to the amount of energy which can be released by this spell, except what the environment will absorb.
To wit: this WILL destroy the planet, and nothing you can say can change that.
Magic in tRoS isn't Newtonian. If it were, the speed of light wouldn't even crop up in the movement vagary.
And you can give as many (silly) reasons as you want, that doesn't make it the case.
Not exactly. If the rock were moving at the speed of light, it must necessarily no longer exist in the same universe as the "stationary" planet.
For my money though, all physics should be scrapped for fantasy worlds. They don't mix.
QuoteFor my money though, all physics should be scrapped for fantasy worlds. They don't mix.
I've heard this sentiment before... Who said it? When...?
Oh, I remember! It was me, the LAST time we got into a big discussion on TRoS sorcery and physics. Sheesh. Give it a rest, can't we?
(Probably not.. And though I despise the topic, I'll almost guarantee that I'll pipe up the next time it crops up, too. Oh well. Makes for lively debate, needless to say.)
Lyrax- From one Lance to another, you're welcome. I'm kinda fond of my explanation(s) as well.
Bob - I think that the dust would settle harmlessly to rest. Why? Because the sorceror was moving the rock at lightspeed. Now it isn't a rock anymore, so the spell ceases to work, and dust cannot go the speed of light without magical aid, so it ceases to go that fast. Why is this so difficult for you to understand? I mean, it's just magic, not relativity, not einsteinian physics, not a PHD dissertation or thesis paper. The whole thing's really very simple once you stop overthinking it.
This is going to be a somewhat revolutionary idea, so listen closely:
The world when you play Riddle of Steel is an imaginary world, right?
And if you and your players play Riddle of Steel, it follows that it's your imaginary world, right?
If Jimbo and his players play Riddle of Steel, they play in their imaginary world, which isn't the same as yours - they might help Gelure take over the world, for example, which wouldn't happen in yours.
If all of the above is true, and you feel that sorcerers can destroy the world/not destroy the world/make crackers from salt and dirt/go take a flying leap, well, what difference does it make? In your world, that's true, right? In other words, is there a right answer?
If not - what's all this hubbub about?
You are correct, Clinton. However, let me point out that we're doing this for fun, and that it's always neat to hear what other people think about the magic stuff. Sometimes, even these discussions produce a great idea.
Quote from: LyraxBob - I think that the dust would settle harmlessly to rest.
You're quite wrong, of course. Not that it matters, this isn't even the easiest way to destroy the world with Movement Mastery.
For the record, you're the one who's overthinking it...trying to come up with (silly) reasons why it WON'T work as advertised. Sheesh.
That is incorrect. I am the Seneschal.
Also, my "overthinking" takes almost fifteen seconds to do (during which I'm writing down the idea, otherwise it wouldn't take as long), for your information.
Hmph.
P.S. <jk!> and :-p
This discussion has gone a bit far. But here I am anyhow. Says something, don't it?
Conservation of energy. If you can put a near infinite amount of energy into an object, which the power implies, then that energy is going somewhere. If it's in an atomosphere it will be transferred to the atmosphere (the exact mechanics of the destruction do not matter), and that near infinite energy will cause everything nearby to be destroyed. Put enough energy in it, the stone becomes near infinitely massive, and you'll destroy the entire universe by creating a black hole so big that everything gets sucked in. By-by universe.
Yep, this spell can do that as written, assuming that physics works pretty much the way it does in our universe.
Yes, the obvious thing to do is to say that physics do not work the same way. However, there are potential problems with this. Being a snakey player, if you tell me that relativity does not work in your universe, I can explain why I won't fall off that cliff, as gravity will not work now. The entire body of physics tends to work together as a whole. So it may be problematic to do it this way. This leads to the same arguments about why gunpowder does not work in a particular world, etc.
Not to say that this can't be effective. Before employing a method like this, just make sure that your social contract includes in it an understanding that these are conventions of the game which are not to be crossed. Once all players agree from the outset, there will be no player who will try to figure out a way to twist the rules so that they can acomplish such out-of-contract events. Or if they do, they are out of bounds, and can be censored appropriately.
This is a good idea for whatever solution that you come up with to this potential problem.
Mike
Quote from: Furious DYou need to recheck your relativity.
You're damn right I do. Don't know what the hell I was thinking of. And I can't beleive my ass has been hanging out for more than a week. Damn. What a mess. That's the last time I'm going to assume that I actually know something.
"Why the hell doesn't it happen more often" take 2
So with the existance of magic which can summon spirits & demons one is forced to except the fact that there are spirits & demons, (and following such a path we arrive at the existance of) gods and devils. Point being, none of the big boys are going to let some punk mortal knock all the sand out of their box. That's my call anyway.
Ah hell, I'd probably let them do it anyway.
Quote from: Mike Holmes
Yes, the obvious thing to do is to say that physics do not work the same way. However, there are potential problems with this. Being a snakey player, if you tell me that relativity does not work in your universe, I can explain why I won't fall off that cliff, as gravity will not work now.
You will STILL fall off the cliff, becuase the Gnomes are pulling you down, silly :)
They aren't gnomes, contracycle. Nor is it acceptable to call them "Little people." Vertically challenged, on the other hand, is still considered proper. The preferred term of these creatures remains, of course, Lord Masters of the Universe and Enforcers of the Laws of Physics.
Interestingly enough, this last term makes them seem similar to the "Game Master" or, as it is sometimes called, "Dungeon Master," or "Seneschal." This creature is believed to be the master of the universe and determiner of fate.
Either way, the laws of physics seem to be arbitrated, when foolish mortals utilize the unknowable and unthinkable powers of magic, by such higher beings (the "Seneschal" being the "boss," and, in this case, the vertically challenged magic men being his "helpers.")
...Lance, you're a putz.
Just thought I'd let you know that...
To be more verbose about it though, I think Lance and Contracycle bring up a good point. Who says Physics even have to exist in a world where magic is real? We fall because it is the nature of earth to pull us downward, and we drown because the water spirits slowly (or rapidly, at times) leach our lifeforce away. We age naturally because Nature has decided that this shall be the way our lives are measured, and we age magically because this is the cost decreed for the use of magic. Who says there has to be an explanation at all?
Quote from: WolfenWho says there has to be an explanation at all?
Um, I think it's in the rules. Not to say you can't do it your way. But as I said, just make sure that the players are down widat before you go that way.
Mike
P.S. everyone knows that the gnomes have been on strike for the last three millenia. The Powers brought in quark brownies as scabs to replace them. Hence the intense litigation between gnome and brownie legal representation, and the temporary outages of forces like gravity due to brownie mischief.
"That defies the law of gravity!"
"Well, I never did study law."
A putz? Well, I never... Okay, so maybe once or twice, but certainly not more than that!
Definately a Putz, no doupt about it. Sorry Lance, but it's the truth.
P.S. This was a very intresting discussion to read. but i can safely say that it isn't hard to get the vagaries up to 3 in all with the current system. My sorcerer strated with these priorities,
A: Stats
B: Race
C: Vagaries
D: Gifts/Flaws
E: Skills
F: Status
Now with that starting package, i have not only amassed myself wealth Very easily, but i have conquer 3, movement 2, growth 2, sculpture 2, glamour 1, vision 2, summoning 1,banishing 1, imprisoning 1. i still have 9 Spiritual attributes waiting to be spent, as well as a 13 sorcery pool. My character is assembeling one of the finest libraries for magical reserch in Weyrth(however it's spelled) And has manages to do this in the same ammount of time that the other players have basically managed to stick thumbs up their asses and fight a few times. The starting abilities of the sorcerer aren't very important. couse it all changes once you sit at that table. Btw we have only played about 3-4 sessions i believe. to give you a time frame.