Hi All!
I am an old school gamer and indy producer, and have been trying to get my head about "GNS".
I have started up my own forum with some really simple rules to encourage discussion about simplifed GNS theory for us old school gamers.
Anyone interested?
http://metamorphosisalpha.net/GNSTheory/index.php
There's a lot of very clever people talking here, but it's a bit hard to shuffle through all of this and folks seem to get a bit bent out of shape about some topics. I have limited posts to 500 characters and banned linked files so the explanations have to be simple.
Craig J. Brain
My apologies for posting in this topic, but I wasn't sure where it would be appropriate.
Thanks very much,
Craig J. Brain
Hiya,
I've moved you to this forum where it fits a little better. No big deal!
Best, Ron
Thanks Ron!
I'm hoping to get some discussion and very basic explanations happening there :)
Craig J. Brain
Heh, an interesting idea, especially the word limit. Do keep us posted on your progress.
Oh - I just thought of an important question, and on reflection, I figured I'd make it public.
It is: do you want me posting there?
Because I can understand any number of reasons why you might not. I authored the topic of your forum, and as such could be seen as having a conflict of interest in a discussion. I also am the co-founder and content moderator of the Forge, and so clearly already have a venue for any discussions about the issues. And as I'm sure you know, various people have constructed images of Ogre-Ron about whom they feel very strongly, and perhaps the folks you're hoping to attract at the site won't be served by complex efforts to untangle whatever images they've encountered.
On the other hand, you might.
I would really appreciate your answering entirely from your own vision of the site. I won't feel rejected or affirmed or anything based on your answer, and my priority is that the site get a good start the way you want it to start.
I'm asking publicly because it's at least possible that someone will construct some elaborate narrative about why I am or am not posting there. People can be referenced to this conversation if necessary to get the lowdown.
Best, Ron
Ron,
I am happy to hear from anyone. I have no axe to grind, I just want to gain an understanding of GNS etc and have somewhere where people can go and get a really quick synopsis of what it's about. There seems to be a number of very vocal detractors as well as fans, which also makes it confusing.
Please feel free to post.
I am keen on the 500 character limit, as that keeps things to a minimum.
I ran out of space for the rules this morning and had to cut a little "fat" :)
Craig J. Brain
Ron,
While I remember, I have stipulated that people use their real names on the site. I have found over the years that there are way too many people willing to be brave about attacking others beliefs while hiding behind a pseudonym. I expect that we will have the odd one or two who may join up and lie about who they are, but that just shows something about themselves, their ethics and the lengths they will go to make their point.
Craig J. Brain
BTW,
Can anyone suggest other forums that might be open to joining in on this project?
Craig J. Brain
I just wanted to drop a quick line in here to thanks those people who have taken the time to join.
Very much appreciated, and looking forward to seeing some useful explanations :)
Craig J. Brain
I'm not certain that your system sends activation emails correctly, though. Might be just me.
I'll take another look at the email settings and see if I can fix that!
I'd hate to be hoping for people to join and the system isn't working :)
Craig J. Brain
I signed up but also haven't received an activation email, alas.
-Vincent
Right,
It looks like I can't (for reasons unknown) set it up to allow users to active themselves. I have activated your accounts, and we should be ready to rolle.
Craig J. Brain
I apologize for not rushing over to join--I am long-winded and time-short, and one of the ways I save myself the trouble writing long posts is by linking to things I've previously written.
To that end, let me suggest that efforts to provide simplified explanations have been done. You might find the Theory 101 articles at
Places to Go, People to Be enlightening:
- System and the Shared Imagined Space (http://ptgptb.org/0026/theory101-01.html) discusses how, according to the Big Model (of which GNS is a small part), the reality of the game world is created through rules governing social interaction and credibility.
- The Impossible Thing Before Breakfast (http://ptgptb.org/0027/theory101-02.html) addresses the relationship between player and referee actions, and various referee "styles".
- Creative Agenda (http://ptgptb.org/0028/theory101-03.html) is specifically about gamism, narrativism, simulationism, what they are and why they matter.
The point of the series was to attempt to make the theory a bit more accessible by summarizing the basics in introductory form.
If I were on your forum, I would want to call attention to those efforts. They're certainly more than five hundred characters each, but they're relatively short articles, really. But then, not being able to link articles would make it difficult to do that.
I hope they're helpful, in any case.
--M. J. Young
Heh, I think the point with Craig's forum is more in allowing Craig himself to discuss GNS interactively within a comfortable framework. If I've learned anything about the Internet during this decade, it's that presentation counts for quite a lot, and social impulses direct people's activities quite a bit. Thus the very fact that somebody's taking the time to engage in discourse makes the words more valuable than some better words in some article out there.
Thanks for the links M.J.
Craig J. Brain
Quote from: Eero Tuovinen on September 19, 2008, 03:02:34 AM
Heh, I think the point with Craig's forum is more in allowing Craig himself to discuss GNS interactively within a comfortable framework. If I've learned anything about the Internet during this decade, it's that presentation counts for quite a lot, and social impulses direct people's activities quite a bit. Thus the very fact that somebody's taking the time to engage in discourse makes the words more valuable than some better words in some article out there.
Eero,
I am going to try to list the topics in an order that will make a bit more sense so that others can drop by and see if they can find simple answers to their questions as well.
I am finding the discussion useful, and I hope others do too :)
The 500 character limit has been handy, it has forced everyone (including me) to be frugal with statements, questions and answers, and kept this fairly understandable.
Craig J. Brain
No offense intended, Craig - I find your format amusing, and while I don't necessarily agree that it makes the topic simpler to learn, I wouldn't be the right person to judge, either: I learned GNS theory solely by reading the articles and forums and didn't find it onerous, so obviously I'm not in the target audience for new ways to parse the content.
Eero,
No offense taken. It is a work in progress :)
A friend of mine is a physicist, and I asked him for some help with working out time dilation for a sci fi adventure. I knew about it, but couldn't explain it half as well as he could. In plain English he explained the what's and why's and gave me the equation that I'd need to use to work it out. He did it in under five minutes. No worries.
I figure if a physicist can explain time dilation in plain English to a normal bloke and provide him with a tool to allow him to work it out, then getting the authors of GNS to explain their theory in plain English should be a snap :)
Craig J. Brain
I, for one, enjoy Craig's board. The forge has endless resources on GNS and other related theories, but Craig's constant "How would that read without the "Bull Sh*t" is refreshing. I think if I ran into his board 4 years ago, it would have saved me a day or two of "hard thinking" to put a useful understanding behind some of these theorectical concepts. From his board I have taken a special interest in the concept of "sandbox" games... expect a future post...
Louis Hoefer
Whole Sum Entertainment
Louis,
I'd love to hear from you. The more the merrier :)
The way I see it, GNS is a theory designed to improve games. I think that most game designers are regular folks who don't want to learn a whole new technical lexicon to design a game. For GNS to be understood by the average gamer on the street, I think it needs to be in plain English. To be blunt, most of the rants I have read from GNS's detractors are based largely on the use of jargon and a perception of elitism. By putting it into plain English, you also remove both of these.
Game design, let alone becoming a publisher, is already a challenge without adding the hurdle of jargon.
Craig J. Brain
Hi All!
Sorry things have been quiet, been moving house and had a lung infection as well :) Just to make it interesting. New members have been approved and all is happening again.
Craig J. Brain